Double Rifle Regulation - Need Some Samples

[vandeusenps]

Hello all,

I recently purchased a Holland & Holland double rifle in .450 Black Powder Express. I've had some success in regulating the rifle with expensive Woodleigh BPE-specific bullets, but in the name of saving some money and not worrying about availability, I'd like to see if I can get some cast bullets to regulate.

After searching the internet for information on this topic, I've found that some people have had success with the RCBS 45-300 gas checked bullet, and also the Lyman 457122 hollow point. If there is anyone out there that casts for either of these bullets, and if you are willing to send me 10 to 20 samples, it would be greatly appreciated! I'd like to try these before spending the money to purchase the moulds if I can!

Of course, I would be more than willing to pay for both the bullets and postage. Please send me a PM if you are willing to send a few my way.

[Wayne Smith]

What form do you want them - as cast, lubed, sized and lubed? If sized and lubed what size do you need? Will alloy matter to you - ie how soft? I have the 457122, can cast in ww metal. Can water drop if you want them harder, but I doubt you will.

[vandeusenps]

What form do you want them - as cast, lubed, sized and lubed? If sized and lubed what size do you need? Will alloy matter to you - ie how soft? I have the 457122, can cast in ww metal. Can water drop if you want them harder, but I doubt you will.

Thanks for the response Wayne. As-cast would be fine, and anything 20:1 or harder will work. My rifle has the usual tapered bore that was typical of the period for these rifles. Groove starts at around .462 and tapers to .454 at the muzzle.

[elk hunter]

If you don't have a copy of Graeme Wright's book "Shooting the British Double Rifle" you should get a copy as it has a tremendous amount of information that you will find useful. Most of the 450 BPE rifles used a 365 grain bullet but there are always exceptions. Most BPE doubles will regulate with different weight bullets if the difference is not too drastic but not all will. I have a 500-450 BPE that shoots the "Oregon Trail Bullet Company Laser Cast 350 grain FP .459 45-70" bullet exceptionally well. I've shot the Lyman Gould 330 grain HP some and it is OK but doesn't shoot as good as the Oregon Train bullet. The one thing I don't like about the Oregon Trail bullet is that it is harder than Wood Pecker lips so it doesn't expand but it does kill deer. I would be happy to send you 20 or so of the Oregon Trail bullet if you would like to try them.

It would helpful if you listed your location as there may be someone close by that could help you out.

[vandeusenps]

If you don't have a copy of Graeme Wright's book "Shooting the British Double Rifle" you should get a copy as it has a tremendous amount of information that you will find useful. Most of the 450 BPE rifles used a 365 grain bullet but there are always exceptions. Most BPE doubles will regulate with different weight bullets if the difference is not too drastic but not all will. I have a 500-450 BPE that shoots the "Oregon Trail Bullet Company Laser Cast 350 grain FP .459 45-70" bullet exceptionally well. I've shot the Lyman Gould 330 grain HP some and it is OK but doesn't shoot as good as the Oregon Train bullet. The one thing I don't like about the Oregon Trail bullet is that it is harder than Wood Pecker lips so it doesn't expand but it does kill deer. I would be happy to send you 20 or so of the Oregon Trail bullet if you would like to try them.

It would helpful if you listed your location as there may be someone close by that could help you out.

Thanks elk hunter for your response. I do own a copy of Graeme Wright's book, and most of my nitro for black loads were recommendations listed in the book. So far, I have tried several loads using both black powder and smokeless, with the best loads being the Woodleigh 350 gr. BPE bullet and H4198, and the Hornady 300 gr. 45-70 bullet and 110 gr. of Swiss 3F coming in second.

I would love to try some of your Oregon Trial bullets! I will send you a PM with my address. Thanks so much!

[lar45]

I don't have a 450 BPE, but do have a 470NE double. In mine, I shot mostly 500gn cast with RL-15 and a tuft of dacron, loaded to 2150fps and they shot the same as conventional bullets. I also downloaded some 400gn cast to 1800fps and they shot nearly as well.
Good luck in your adventure.
some pics of the rifle would be great ;)

[vandeusenps]

I don't have a 450 BPE, but do have a 470NE double. In mine, I shot mostly 500gn cast with RL-15 and a tuft of dacron, loaded to 2150fps and they shot the same as conventional bullets. I also downloaded some 400gn cast to 1800fps and they shot nearly as well.
Good luck in your adventure.
some pics of the rifle would be great ;)

Thanks Lar, can I ask what alloy you are using for the full speed loads? Any issues with excessive leading?

[lar45]

I was using WDWW + some tin. For a lube I used both 2500+ and Carnauba Red, and sized to .476" It was a gas checked 500gn mold from Mountain Molds and did not get any leading at all.
The 400gn bullet was from the Lee mold.

[Wayne Smith]

He will have some 457122 coming probably next week.

[vandeusenps]

He will have some 457122 coming probably next week.

Thanks again Wayne!

[kens]

I got several .45 rifle molds, what dia is your 450 Express?
I can cast a few for you,
what weight you looking for?

[vandeusenps]

I got several .45 rifle molds, what dia is your 450 Express?
I can cast a few for you,
what weight you looking for?

Ken, groove in front of the chamber is about .462, but not sure I could get one that big to chamber. I would say anything .460 or less would be ideal. For weight, I’m looking at 300 to 365 grains. Let me know what you have!

[Huvius]

I realize you are asking about cast specifically, but the 350gr Hornady RN is a very good alternative to the Woodleighs for jacketed.

Is your rifle a 450 3-1/4" or Holland's 500/450? No bearing on bullet selection, just wondering, although H&H was a very early adopter of the grease groove style of boolit in their 500/450 and I would think that their chambers will allow a bigger boolit than the traditional paper patch type chambers you run into with these rifles.
Have you measured the mouth of your fired brass? That's sometimes a good diameter for smokeless loads.

I second a look at your rifle!;)

[vandeusenps]

I realize you are asking about cast specifically, but the 350gr Hornady RN is a very good alternative to the Woodleighs for jacketed.

Is your rifle a 450 3-1/4" or Holland's 500/450? No bearing on bullet selection, just wondering, although H&H was a very early adopter of the grease groove style of boolit in their 500/450 and I would think that their chambers will allow a bigger boolit than the traditional paper patch type chambers you run into with these rifles.
Have you measured the mouth of your fired brass? That's sometimes a good diameter for smokeless loads.

I second a look at your rifle!;)

Hello Huvius, mine is in the 450 3-1/4” flavor. Thanks for the heads up on the hornady 350’s, I would like to try a box, especially for being about half the price of the woodleighs. Regarding measurement of the case mouth, you mean measure the case mouth, subtract 2x the brass thickness, and that would be a good measurement for cast, correct?

I’ll try to post pics when I return home in a few days!

[vandeusenps]

Here’s a link to the rock island auction I won...will have to suffice until I get home.

https://www.rockislandauction.com/detail/77/3398/holland-holland-under-lever-back-action-hammer-double-rifle

[lar45]

Wow, what a great piece!
http://www.lsstuff.com/pics/guns/450express/450-01.png
http://www.lsstuff.com/pics/guns/450express/450-02.png
http://www.lsstuff.com/pics/guns/450express/450-03.png
http://www.lsstuff.com/pics/guns/450express/450-04.png

[kens]

I see the bullet examples you mention are 300-340 weight,
I dont have any molds that light.

[Gray Fox]

Something you might try is the Berrys .45-70 (.458) 350 grain round shoulder flat nose bullet. It's rated to 1,700 fps and much cheaper than the Hornady, although it can't be pushed as fast as the latter. They come in a box of 150, but perhaps if you contacted them they might send you a few to try out if you offer to give them a report of your results. I got a box to try in my rifles which include a browning 1885, a Marlin guide gun, and a Sharps replica. Haven't had a break in the weather lately when I've had the time to get to the range. I'll probably load with 2400 and 5744. GF

[vandeusenps]

Wow, what a great piece!
http://www.lsstuff.com/pics/guns/450express/450-01.png
http://www.lsstuff.com/pics/guns/450express/450-02.png
http://www.lsstuff.com/pics/guns/450express/450-03.png
http://www.lsstuff.com/pics/guns/450express/450-04.png

Thanks for posting!

[vandeusenps]

Something you might try is the Berrys .45-70 (.458) 350 grain round shoulder flat nose bullet. It's rated to 1,700 fps and much cheaper than the Hornady, although it can't be pushed as fast as the latter. They come in a box of 150, but perhaps if you contacted them they might send you a few to try out if you offer to give them a report of your results. I got a box to try in my rifles which include a browning 1885, a Marlin guide gun, and a Sharps replica. Haven't had a break in the weather lately when I've had the time to get to the range. I'll probably load with 2400 and 5744. GF

Thanks for the recommendation GF, I take a look at these!

[Huvius]

Looks like a great rifle. Congratulations!
Is this your first BPE double?
I was going to mention the Berry's bullets too. I've used them in a Westley and they seem to shoot well enough but that particular rifle shot just about everything well - it was a single shot btw.
If they happen to work for you, that's a lot of reasonably priced shooting! Not a traditionally shaped or sexy looking boolit, but very economical.
I have a lot of those on hand if you want to try some out and I will also send you some swaged paper patched boolits in the 350gr range I make to try out.
How are the bores?
I ask, because it seems that old BPE rifles with iffy bores can shoot jacketed (but maybe not plated as the Berry's) better than cast or paper patched.
I just picked up a 450BPE hammer rifle too and can't wait to get it out to see what it likes!


https://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg312/Huvius/Mobile%20Uploads/BCFDCBD5-6F3E-4DAD-A39D-B5F3CC853901.jpg (http://s251.photobucket.com/user/Huvius/media/Mobile%20Uploads/BCFDCBD5-6F3E-4DAD-A39D-B5F3CC853901.jpg.html)

[vandeusenps]

Looks like a great rifle. Congratulations!
Is this your first BPE double?
I was going to mention the Berry's bullets too. I've used them in a Westley and they seem to shoot well enough but that particular rifle shot just about everything well - it was a single shot btw.
If they happen to work for you, that's a lot of reasonably priced shooting! Not a traditionally shaped or sexy looking boolit, but very economical.
I have a lot of those on hand if you want to try some out and I will also send you some swaged paper patched boolits in the 350gr range I make to try out.
How are the bores?
I ask, because it seems that old BPE rifles with iffy bores can shoot jacketed (but maybe not plated as the Berry's) better than cast or paper patched.
I just picked up a 450BPE hammer rifle too and can't wait to get it out to see what it likes!


https://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg312/Huvius/Mobile%20Uploads/BCFDCBD5-6F3E-4DAD-A39D-B5F3CC853901.jpg (http://s251.photobucket.com/user/Huvius/media/Mobile%20Uploads/BCFDCBD5-6F3E-4DAD-A39D-B5F3CC853901.jpg.html)

Thanks Huvius! Yes, this is my first double rifle. The bores on this one are very nice considering age, I can’t detect any pitting in either side. I would definitely like to try some of your Berry’s if you can spare a few.

I’ve tried paper patched bullets only once before...results were not promising, but I will say that was my first go at paper patching. I bought the .451 350 grain swaged bullets from BACO, they patched up to .457. I actually just loaded a new batch to try, this time using black powder revolver seals sandwiched between to milk carton wads above 110 grains of Swiss 2f. I’m thinking that a larger final diameter bullet would probably work better, but we’ll see!

Very nice 450, what flavor is that one?

[iomskp]

Regulating can be a bit of a challenge best way to solve it would be to give the rifle to me, I promise I would take good care of it. Back to reality well done on the purchase, doubles can be tricky the best advise I can give is log every change and the results of that change.

[dtknowles]

My Belgian Double in 450 BPE

254847

254848

I have loaded a couple different cast bullets (purchased) that I don't recall offhand over 110 gr. of fff from different makers with just a card wad between the bullet and powder with just between a quarter and an eight inch of compression in Hornady NE brass. The shot well enough to not need messing with. Three inch groups 4 shot groups two from each barrel with express sights.

It has what I think is called Henry rifling. Poliganal with spikes in the corners. The barrels are 30 inches long but it looks like it was cut back from something longer. The Hornady brass sized in Hornady dies would not chamber so I lapped the chambers until they would. It did not take much lapping, looking down the breach you would never know.

The wood is so nice.


Tim

[vandeusenps]

My Belgian Double in 450 BPE

254847

254848

I have loaded a couple different cast bullets (purchased) that I don't recall offhand over 110 gr. of fff from different makers with just a card wad between the bullet and powder with just between a quarter and an eight inch of compression in Hornady NE brass. The shot well enough to not need messing with. Three inch groups 4 shot groups two from each barrel with express sights.

It has what I think is called Henry rifling. Poliganal with spikes in the corners. The barrels are 30 inches long but it looks like it was cut back from something longer. The Hornady brass sized in Hornady dies would not chamber so I lapped the chambers until they would. It did not take much lapping, looking down the breach you would never know.

The wood is so nice.


Tim

Tim, a nice looking rifle indeed. You reminded me of the most frustrating part of purchasing my rifle...the chambers on these old guns are typically smaller than SAAMI or CIP spec, as was mine. Full length sized Hornady 450 brass didn't fit all the way into the chamber. Taking desperate measures, I search online for a solution, and ended up using a Lee .510 bullet sizing die to squeeze the portion of brass down that was holding it up from fully chambering. After doing this, I was able to chamber some rounds, fire them, and send the cases off to Hornady to have them build a custom sizing die for me. Three months later, I received the custom die and the cases drop in to the chamber now as they should!

[Huvius]

Very nice 450, what flavor is that one?

It actually has no name or serial number but almost certainly made by P. Webley or Webley & Scott.
450 3-1/4" chambering.

PM your address and I will post some of these Berry's to you and I can throw in some Hornadys too for you to try if you will pay postage.

[lar45]

I almost forgot an important detail.
Double rifles are regulated to be shot standing, not from the bench. That way the rifle and your body move together. The right barrel will recoil up and to the right and the left up and to the left.
While you are working up your load, mark the targets with the load and the holes for the left and right barrels so you can track your progress. I did all of my testing at 50 yds and shot for the centers of the right and left targets to be about 1.5" apart with the right barrel printing on the right and the left barrel on the left. Make sure they are not backwards and crossing.
What I did for mine was took a 2x4 and built a 90 deg triangle, then when I was sighting in at the range I would take a C clamp and clamp the triangle to an upright next to the shooting benches, put a sandbag on it and rest my left forearm on the bag while holding the rifle. Get the sights lined up a little low on the target and raise up slightly and shoot.

[vandeusenps]

I almost forgot an important detail.
Double rifles are regulated to be shot standing, not from the bench. That way the rifle and your body move together. The right barrel will recoil up and to the right and the left up and to the left.
While you are working up your load, mark the targets with the load and the holes for the left and right barrels so you can track your progress. I did all of my testing at 50 yds and shot for the centers of the right and left targets to be about 1.5" apart with the right barrel printing on the right and the left barrel on the left. Make sure they are not backwards and crossing.
What I did for mine was took a 2x4 and built a 90 deg triangle, then when I was sighting in at the range I would take a C clamp and clamp the triangle to an upright next to the shooting benches, put a sandbag on it and rest my left forearm on the bag while holding the rifle. Get the sights lined up a little low on the target and raise up slightly and shoot.

Lar, funny you should mention this...my first few range sessions were shot sitting at the bench with my left hand holding the barrels and resting on a sandbag. I was getting horrible groups, and crossing badly. Then, I decided to play around with a few rounds standing while shooting at steel plates at 50 yards. I noticed my bullet marks on the plates were much closer together and not crossing. My offhand groups standing were much better than sitting at a rest with my off hand resting on a sandbag! You live you learn! Thanks for the 2x4 idea...sounds like a simple fix for shooting at the range.

[lar45]

Here's my 470
http://www.lsstuff.com/howdah/pics/470ne/470ne-01.jpg
http://www.lsstuff.com/howdah/pics/470ne/470ne-02.jpg

[vandeusenps]

Here's my 470
http://www.lsstuff.com/howdah/pics/470ne/470ne-01.jpg
http://www.lsstuff.com/howdah/pics/470ne/470ne-02.jpg

Very nice, one day when I grow up I’ll be able to afford a nitro double!

[Rick B]

Looking forward to a shooting report.
Rick

[vandeusenps]

Just wanted to say thanks again to all who have sent bullets for me to try! Thanks to the kind members on this site, I now have 6 different bullets to try. As I get time to head to the range, I will post results here.

First up are the Lyman 457122 and Hornady j-bullets, both loaded with smokeless. Should have a report posted within the next few weeks.

[vandeusenps]

Well, finally got a chance to get to the range today, although with a 20mph crosswind and a temperature of 28 degrees, conditions weren't the greatest. I got a chance to try some of the bullets I received from the members on this site. The pic below is a CADD rendition of three groups of four, green are right barrel, red is left. The crosshair shows aim point, and bullet holes are shown to scale at .458":

Left and Center Group: Lyman 457122, both groups shot with 52 grains H4198 and foam backer rod.

Right Group: Hornady 350 grain Jacketed, shot with 110 grains Olde Eynsford 3F.

Obviously, more development is needed. The 350 grain jacketed is showing the most promise, but looks like I'll have to increase velocity with either Swiss 3F, or smokeless.

256398