Hunting Load: 45-70 405 gr cast @ 1300 fps --->European smokeless Powder?

[Blackforest]

Hey to everybody,

my name is Stefan and I am from Blackforest, Germany.[smilie=s:
I'm new to bullet casting and plan to buy a stainless Marlin Levergun in 45-70 for hunting with cast boolits.

Why hunting with cast boolits? Because I want to!
Here in Europe or in Germany it's not as easy as in the USA to get all the reloading stuff you need. Sometimes you have to wait weeks or months until the next ship brings the bullets you want. With powder it is extremly different. Sometimes you get what you need, other times you have to wait half a year for your powder. An even then, you dont know if it really comes with the next container.

Because of this I decided to cast my own bullets and load them with european smokeless powder. That makes me independent in some way.
My game are roe deer (20 to 40 pounds) and wildboar (20 to 200 pounds).
My bullet of choice will be something like the Accurate Mold 46-405V 254692
I've read a lot of boolit performance with big meplat bullets in the internet and believe, that this boolit should work quite fine, without much meat damage. I hunt for meat!

I did a lot of research on wound ballistics and believe, that a 405 gr WFN boolit driven a something around 1300 fps should work for me. My shooting distances are from 30 to 130 yards, most of the time around 70 yards. I'am a woods hunter.

Now the problems:
Here in Germany we have some bullet casting community, but compared to the tradition and experiences in the USA we are only one little star on the night sky. So for us mold availability is difficult, bullet lube availabillity is difficult, powder availabillity is difficult and so on.
For this reason I have to work with what we have here.

I have a german custom mold maker who surley can build a copy of the Accurate mold for me. That is cheaper that shipping it from USA, I believe.
Bullet lube for my purpose? I've read the whole bullet lube receipes here on the forum (and on other sites) and want to give 60% beeswax and 40 % Vaseline a try. That should work for my porpose. I like receipes with only a few ingredients available everywhere. Better idea?

Now to my question: What powder would you recommend?
I read the Lyman cast bullet Handbook No. 4 and countless of posts here on the forum and on other sites. There are great load recommendations. But all of them (the Lyman book included) have one big problem for me (not for you Amerikans! I envy you in many ways!). There are in 99% only US powders mentioned. I like your powders! Really! I loaded in .308 Win a 110 gr Barnes TSX with Hodgdon H322 and really liked that load!
But as mentionned, it is difficult to buy these powders here and I'm honest, I dont want to wait half a year for a new can of powder that comes maybe(!) with the next ship.

I don't need a bear stopping load. For me a 80% meplat bullet (like the Accurate one) driven at 1200 or 1300 fps in enough! Wound channel ist good, penetration should be the most in this velocity range (I dont need it for my "little" game, I know) and the load ist comfortable to shoot.
With most powders combinded with a mild load like this I get very little case filling.
I want to avoid this, because of inconsistensy and the other problems that come with it. Gas pressure will be low, so I will have to live with some unburnt powder, but that is not the main problem for me. I don't like Fillers, because the cause problems!

Has somebody experiences with european Powders for this load combination?
We have a similar powder to TrailBoss, it is calle Tin Star from Vihtavuori. But there is no load data available for 45-70, only for revolver cartridges.

I found some load data for the Accurate bullet mentionned in another Forum: Load was 24.0 grs. 2400, Wolf Large Rifle Primer, Accurate 460405V sized .460" with Glen's Black Moly Bullet Lube. Bore was super clean when I finished shooting today. Fired out of my Siamese 98' Mauser. https://www.artfulbullet.com/index.php?threads/im-looking-for-sug-for-45-70.2287/#post-43067
Do you know the case filling rate of this combination?

I'm searching for a european powder that is good available for me, , that is not very position sensitive, that ignites good and burnes relativly clean even with low pressure. with that I can achieve my 1300 fps with a 405 gr cast bullet. And that filles my case adequate.

Do you have some recommendations for me?
Please tell me the US powders, too. I'm interested in that!

Thank you!
Stefan

[brewer12345]

I would try working with tin star. Can you contact the manufacturer to see if they have load data? The other possibility is they you could probably achieve desired ballistics with black powder, which I believe is more widely available in Europe.

[Blackforest]

I would try working with tin star. Can you contact the manufacturer to see if they have load data? The other possibility is they you could probably achieve desired ballistics with black powder, which I believe is more widely available in Europe.

Thank you for the advice with the manufacturer. But they refere to the actual published data, and there is no load data...because cast bullet shooting is not very commen here in Europe. So i'm sure, they didn't event tested it...

Blackpowder is no option for me, because of cleaning procedure and smoke. I have to make follow up shots, if two or more game is in front of me.

[Gamsek]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200112/538c8f15e5243cf39659eab07a839c32.jpg
If you can find data for 45-70 with 5744 (one of the most versatile powders for cast bullets and reduced loads) buy Lovex D060.

I had same problems, was using 5744 for years in my 7mmRM and now 7x64 with RCBS cast bullet, then finding that 5744 powder become impossible here in Europe. Me and two other casters switched to D060, we get same results. As you see my old 5744 was made by Lovex. Same characteristics. Lovex doesn’t publish data for reduced loads, but we are getting very similar results as with 5744 using that rule (down)
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200112/742ee9eacc3a0ae137812a66ff1daa93.jpg
Good luck. And you have one premium EU mould manufacturer which has moulds for your 45-70 too. (MP Molds). They ship worldwide.

[Gamsek]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200112/65d329de277293445966f4e11733d664.plist

https://explosia.cz/app/uploads/2019/07/EXPLOSIA_reloading_EN_2019.pdf

And a mould without overseas shipping costs and no custom expenses (that’s why I use them)

https://www.mp-molds.com/product/mp-45-70-keith-style-hollow-point-mold-multi-choice/

[gumbo333]

Well I'll take a stab at this Black forest. Vihtavouri in there online load data has 3 more powders in addition to Tin Star that is comparable in the 45/70. That data is mostly for jacketed bullets. Many say you can use beginning load data for jacketed to use with cast boolits. Check it out. Next Shooters World powders here in USA is Lovex powders over there. Made by Explosia. They show data for 2 powders, lead, 378 gr. and 500 gr. That would give you a start. Alhso Norma powder shows 3 powders for the 45/70 but all for jacketed bullets. But again a start. This info I have is all available on-line. RWS had powder in the past, might check them out. Lastly, over on Marlin Owners forum they have a 45/70 category. Lots and lots of info and knowledgeable friendly guys there. Lots of 45/70 casters and reloaders 'down under' , they have a difficult time getting componets too. Check that out also. You've been bit, no turning back now. Have fun, be safe, I'm sure there is info for what you want if you can figure out how to find it.

[Gamsek]

https://shootersworldpowder.com/buffalo-rifle/

D060 in another package, made by Lovex, just with different name.

[Blackforest]

@Gamsek: Thank you for the advice with the Lovex D060 = Accurate 5744!!! The last one is one of the few favourite powders mentioned in the Lyman cast bullet handbook. That seems to be worth a try!
Many many thanks for the article of handloadersmagazine! This method is new to me, but for estimating a good starting point i will give it a try! Well Quickload isn't very precise with cases like 45-70, so a good rule like this in combination with a chrono is pretty cool!

MP molds... sure! You are right!

Buffalo Rifle powder (D060) sounds almost perfect for my needs, not?

@gumbo333: Many thanks for your advice! Don't you see the problem with the "normal" powders, not especially made for straight walled big bores, that the case filling is so minimal?
I would load without fillers or paper pads or what they are called...

[gumbo333]

Thanks, there is also some low level data for mouse fart loads that does get to 1100 fps using handgun and shotgun powders like unique, red dot, green dot, tite group, tite wad and several Vihtavouri powders. Not sure what you have available there. Interesting reading at gmdr.com/lever/ lowveldata. But need to be especially careful doing this as double charging is a real possibility. I've had a lot of fun and success with blue dot, red dot and unique with a 405 gr boolit. I'm guessing you will soon be having much fun too.

[MT Chambers]

There's lots of data around for Vihtavouri 130 from Finland, I believe they have a data manual on the computer, good luck, the 45/70 is a deadly cal. for what you need. The only reason to go to any heavier loads is if you need to flatten trajectory and shoot game at longer ranges.

[Petander]

Welcome to the great hobby!

Vihtavuori N130 and N135 have worked for me with 325-475 grains. I load cast 1500 -1900 fps.

I just found a 2004 test target pic today,50 meters with a Marlin 1895 45-70. I only had my first 405 grain mold then and lube was beeswax based homemade concoction.

https://i.postimg.cc/zX8DSbxz/loadscompare.jpg.


You have Brownells in Germany,lots of casting stuff there. Titan Reloading ships worlwide,so do NOE,Accurate,Mihec...I get molds from Ebay more often than I should...

[siamese4570]

Blackforest: Always happy to help out a fellow 45-70 shooter. I also have a siamese 4570. My old lyman manual lists loads for both 2400 and unique. 16.5 grains of unique shows 1260 fps (that's max load). 22.5 grains of 2400 gives 1240 fps. Max load for 2400 is 28.5 grains. Hope this helps.
Siamese4570

[35Whelen]

If you can get your hands on Unique...you can get many more loads per pound than any other powder and get to the desired velocity. A 16 grain load will get you very near 1300 fps and you can get 437 loads per pound of powder....very easy on the shoulder and firearm as well, and no need for filler.

[koger]

X2 on 35 Whelens post.

[Larry Gibson]

Hey to everybody,

my name is Stefan and I am from Blackforest, Germany.[smilie=s:
I'm new to bullet casting and plan to buy a stainless Marlin Levergun in 45-70 for hunting with cast boolits.

Why hunting with cast boolits? Because I want to!
Here in Europe or in Germany it's not as easy as in the USA to get all the reloading stuff you need. Sometimes you have to wait weeks or months until the next ship brings the bullets you want. With powder it is extremly different. Sometimes you get what you need, other times you have to wait half a year for your powder. An even then, you dont know if it really comes with the next container.

Because of this I decided to cast my own bullets and load them with european smokeless powder. That makes me independent in some way.
My game are roe deer (20 to 40 pounds) and wildboar (20 to 200 pounds).
My bullet of choice will be something like the Accurate Mold 46-405V 254692
I've read a lot of boolit performance with big meplat bullets in the internet and believe, that this boolit should work quite fine, without much meat damage. I hunt for meat!

I did a lot of research on wound ballistics and believe, that a 405 gr WFN boolit driven a something around 1300 fps should work for me. My shooting distances are from 30 to 130 yards, most of the time around 70 yards. I'am a woods hunter.

Now the problems:
Here in Germany we have some bullet casting community, but compared to the tradition and experiences in the USA we are only one little star on the night sky. So for us mold availability is difficult, bullet lube availabillity is difficult, powder availabillity is difficult and so on.
For this reason I have to work with what we have here.

I have a german custom mold maker who surley can build a copy of the Accurate mold for me. That is cheaper that shipping it from USA, I believe.
Bullet lube for my purpose? I've read the whole bullet lube receipes here on the forum (and on other sites) and want to give 60% beeswax and 40 % Vaseline a try. That should work for my porpose. I like receipes with only a few ingredients available everywhere. Better idea?

Now to my question: What powder would you recommend?
I read the Lyman cast bullet Handbook No. 4 and countless of posts here on the forum and on other sites. There are great load recommendations. But all of them (the Lyman book included) have one big problem for me (not for you Amerikans! I envy you in many ways!). There are in 99% only US powders mentioned. I like your powders! Really! I loaded in .308 Win a 110 gr Barnes TSX with Hodgdon H322 and really liked that load!
But as mentionned, it is difficult to buy these powders here and I'm honest, I dont want to wait half a year for a new can of powder that comes maybe(!) with the next ship.

I don't need a bear stopping load. For me a 80% meplat bullet (like the Accurate one) driven at 1200 or 1300 fps in enough! Wound channel ist good, penetration should be the most in this velocity range (I dont need it for my "little" game, I know) and the load ist comfortable to shoot.
With most powders combinded with a mild load like this I get very little case filling.
I want to avoid this, because of inconsistensy and the other problems that come with it. Gas pressure will be low, so I will have to live with some unburnt powder, but that is not the main problem for me. I don't like Fillers, because the cause problems!

Has somebody experiences with european Powders for this load combination?
We have a similar powder to TrailBoss, it is calle Tin Star from Vihtavuori. But there is no load data available for 45-70, only for revolver cartridges.

I found some load data for the Accurate bullet mentionned in another Forum: Load was 24.0 grs. 2400, Wolf Large Rifle Primer, Accurate 460405V sized .460" with Glen's Black Moly Bullet Lube. Bore was super clean when I finished shooting today. Fired out of my Siamese 98' Mauser. https://www.artfulbullet.com/index.php?threads/im-looking-for-sug-for-45-70.2287/#post-43067
Do you know the case filling rate of this combination?

I'm searching for a european powder that is good available for me, , that is not very position sensitive, that ignites good and burnes relativly clean even with low pressure. with that I can achieve my 1300 fps with a 405 gr cast bullet. And that filles my case adequate.

Do you have some recommendations for me?
Please tell me the US powders, too. I'm interested in that!

Thank you!
Stefan

I've done a bit of load development using Tin Star (VV N32C) under 413 gr cast bullets in the 45-70 which included pressure measurement. First of all Tin Star is nothing like "Trail Boss" powder. Tin star has a lot less bulk and does not give 100% load density as can Trail boss. You must be careful as it is a fast burning powder and pressures increase fast in the large 45-70 case. The pressures also rise very fast in the time pressure curve. While I found it gave excellent accuracy in the 45-70 with the 413 gr cast bullet I wouldn't use Tin Star with a 400 - 415 gr cast bullet beyond 1100 fps. I'm sure there are European powders in the burning range of RL7, 3031 and H4895(?) Which are the powders I favor for 1300 - 1400 fps with a 400 - 410 gr cast bullet in the 45-70. However, I use a filler with them. Fillers do not cause problems, they solve them. Problems can be caused by wads which are not fillers.

[GregLaROCHE]

I’m an American who has been shooting a .45/70 for over thirty-five years. I now live in France and understand completely what you are talking about. You will probably have to work up a load that suits you with what you have available. Here’s a link to power burn rates. I like Vihtavuori powders, partly because of the reloading tables they have on line, but only for jacketed bullets. Just for reference.
Consider buying an inexpensive Lee mould or two to start. You may also want to try a heavier boolit like 500gn traveling slower. Sometimes they’re not that expensive from the UK, but hurry before Brexit. If you buy on eBay.com, the shipping should still be less for a couple of moulds, than having a steel or brass one made.
You need to figure out how hard an alloy you want to use. I’ve bought.45/70 cast boolits on the internet. It may be a way to start.
Good luck! There’s a lot to be learned and this is one of the best places to start.


https://www.lhs-germany.de/fileadmin/media/Mediathek/Pulver/Relative_Abbrenngeschwindigkeit_Export_Feb._2018.p df

[Petander]

I started with a Lee mold and wouldn't recommend it as the first mold.

Especially because we now have many reasonably priced,quaranteed good quality mold makers, I just finished casting with a Lee and experienced all the usual little things like pins falling,handles falling, not aligning all the time,bullets sticking...

It's an old 44 mold that made me hate 44 so I sold my SBH. The mold can/must be fixed.

Get a good mold from the start and concentrate on other things than repairing a $20 mold. Lee is fine for an experienced caster with some technical abilities and tools.

[LawrenceA]

Hi mate
For a mold the Lee's overheat real quick but are dirt cheap comparatively. Miha (MP molds) is on your doorstep and awesome. Do yourself a favor and take a look.

I am in Australia so we have a similar issue with what powders are available vs the States.
Just for background I load for a Marlin 1895 as well as an original Trapdoor so do a bit with 45-70.
The only powder reliably available is ADI and even then it is sketchy.
However the ADI site does have a powder equivalent chart which can be used to find a potential match between available powder and US loading data.
I have made good use of it comparing the available powders with Lyman's and other cast load data
Of course your cannot just dive on but maybe it will be some use in helping find a starting powder and load.
I would start with Springfield loads and work up keeping in mind the possible need for fillers.
Remember generally it is harder to blow yourself up with fuller cases of slow powder. But I believe you should check for too much unburnt powder before running another round through.
Please remember this chart is supplied as an aid not a definitive list.
Use common sense. Don't damage yourself or the gun and have fun.
Good luck!
http://www.adi-powders.com.au/powder-equivalents/

[koger]

This year deer hunting, I took a deer here in KY, with a 350gr Lyman/Gould hollow point. The load was 15 grs of Unique pistol powder. It shoots great, and zipped thru both shoulder and the spine in between, and exited. The shot was 70 yds or so, in a original Trapdoor Springfield, made in 1884. I posted here in this section with pics of the exit hole, should be on the first or second page. This should do all you need for your hunting and shooting. I would go with 13grs of Unique behinda 405 gr lead bullet. Do not use any filler.

[ChristopherO]

Unique loads are light effective with no filler. I use those for practice loads, though I am sure they will kill deer just fine. My hunting load is 2400 with a 1/2 grain of dacron filler, just enough to hold the powder in place next to the primer. wonderful loan and excellent accuracy. If you have those available there are many shots per pound.
Most of all, have a BLAST!

[Blackforest]

@gumbo333: Yes, I will. Thank you! Problem here is the availability of these powders. Vihtavuori handgun powders habe so less case filling that I am a little bit afraid of the problem you mentionned: Double charging. I am a careful reloader, but who knowes... if it happeny it can be very dangerous...

@MT Chambers: Know this powder. Thanks! But load data is for much stouter loads... dont know how it performs on less pressure... for "longer" ranges I use my .308 Win... so the 45-70 will be the woods rifle. The purpose that it is designed for. :-)

@Petander: Thanks for the pic! Would you like to share the beeswax receipe with me?

@siamese4570: Thank you!

@35Whelen: Like siamese4570 and koger mentionned and many other reloaders too, Unique seems to be worth a try... I would love to life in the USA with a powder store next to my house... tons of great gun powder, everything available for the rest of my life... a dream!

@Larry Gibson: Thank you for the very informative post! I will keep that in mind!

@GregLaROCHE: Great website! I know these guys! Experts!

@LawrenceA: I'll keep that in mind!

@koger: In Germany we would say: "Waidmannsheil" ;-) I have to check that foto! Nice!

@ChristopherO: Unique... i've read this name so often... maybe i will dream tonight from Unique. Thank you! :-)

[skeettx]

Watching as progress is being made :)

[Blackforest]

To all the Unique powder users:

The 45-70 loaded with a 405 gr WFN bullet, pushed to something around 1300 fps with Unique... how much is the case filling ratio with a 16 gr load for example?

[ChristopherO]

Blackforest,
Very little of the case is filled. In reality, extremely little of the case is filled, so one has to be highly aware NOT to Double Charge the case. My procedure is to manually pour the measured amount of Unique into the prepped case and then place a boolit into the mouth to ensure that no additional powder is accidentally is poured in. All I've read is that Unique is not case position sensitive and doesn't need a filler. Always do your due diligence to be sure, though.

I use 13 grains of Unique but I don't believe the muzzle velocity is 1,300 fps, more like a 1,000 fps out of my 26" barrel. I need to double check that to be sure, but it is a very light load. Great for water jugs out to 100 yards. This is with a Lee 405 grain bullet, not the 350 grain boolit Koger was writing about. (I agree with a prior poster, if you want a very good mold skip the Lee and purchase better from the start. I use Lee dies and such but the molds don't hold a candle in quality, IMHO)

I apply the same loading procedure with the 24.5 grains of 2400 powder I use on my hunting loads (1,620 fps) but add the light tuft of dacron before inserting the boolit. Because of the higher fps of these hunting loads I use an Accurate Mold with gas checks. I still get some leading of the barrel from both boolits, Lee and Accurate sized to .460, but 4 or 5 swipes of lightly oiled tight patches pushes it all out.

Black Power is quite fun, too. I was surprised how little smoke exited from the end of the barrel compared to my 50 caliber muzzleloaders, though. Same amount of powder (70 grains of fffg) but not nearly the extent of the smoke plume, from my small amount of experimenting.
Enjoy.

[gumbo333]

Black forest, glad you found some Unique. 16 gr of Unique fills a 45/70 case up approximately .45 inch. I think that would be 1.14 centimeter. A double charge of 32 gr of Unique would be slightly compressed using a 405 gr boolit seated to the crimpgroove. A double charge can be easily seen if you look every time after filling with powder. Follow ChristopherO's procedure, put a boolit in the case immediately after you put the powder in, even if you put the boolit in upside down to show you the case has been charged. I always seat the boolit after I charge with powder, nomatter what the charge weight is, always. I then crimp with a Lee FCD. But I have 2 presses sitting side by side. The 2nd press is a cheap Lee 'C' press. Open in the front for easy access for light duty work. Start with good habits, be safe. Your about the start having a world of fun. I think your 405 gr flat point boolit traveling at just 1100 fps would kill animals weighing up to a ton.

[Norske]

Lovex is sold in the US under a different name. Ballistic Powders may have some data from Vectan. They will have a link to Vectan. Actually, there are a number of powders that are similar or simply rebranded European powders. Alliant may still use or copy under license Nobel powders, Ramshot (Western Powders) had some supply problems after Putin started saber rattling and NATO countries increased their ammunition stocks.

[Duckiller]

I have a 1895 CB (26"barrel). While I have no experience with european powders I would suggest ou look for a lighter bullet mold. 400gr at 1300fps is approaching bison killing energy. When I first got the gun I had no idea what I wanted to shoot in it. I started out with two lee molds , 330 and 405 gr. Once the molds were broken it they have workedfine. I also found a Lyman/Ideal 290 gr mold. These all have worked fine with "Trail Boss" powder. Used minimum loads and they are not much more than 22LR recoil. Any load will kill the Roe deer. Boar may take a 330 gr at 1300 fps to put down promptly. California no longer allow me to hunt with cast loads. Some time this year I hope to move to Oregon where I can hunt with cast boolits. Have fin with your new gun!

[gumbo333]

Looks like Vectan TU3000 would get you right where you want to be, even with a cast boolit, if you have access to it. Nobelsport is in Paris.

[superior]

Get Unique if you can, 2400 if you cant, 4198 if you don’t mind less economy. All 3 are excellent in my JM GG

[Bouteselle]

Howdy folks!
I've been reading you for a while, but I've just registered as I saw this topic.
I understand your problem of powder, but for me near everything is available, except that US goods are waaaayy more expensive.
Why don't you use Vectan powders? A0 for plinking, or SP10 for hot loads. I hunt big boars with my 1886 Browning rifle. I shoot a RCBS 45-405 boolit, 420 grains lubed & gascheked, 1-30 tin lead alloy, at around 1500f/s with no leading, perhaps because of the outstanding Ben's red lube.
I also use swiss black powder, the job is done.

https://www.yumpu.com/fr/document/read/10635100/45-70-government-carabines-et-fusils-anciens-lhs-germany-

[hockeynick39]

The mold I use is Accurate 460-400M. The load I use is 39.2 gr. H322 at 2.550" and it shoots to point of aim at 50 meters. This load is very accurate from my original Winchester 1886 and is very mild.

Vihtavuori Oy N133, N130, or N120 are very close. You may also have to fluff up a tuft of Dacron (pillow batting), 6mm x 6mm in order to fill up the empty space. I have no issues with using it in this manner. Others will say something about "ringing" the chamber. Most are just scared to try!

Good luck and stay safe!

[NorthMoccasin]

+1 to what Duck Killer said. 300- 350 grains is plenty in the 45/70. 15.0 Unique and a 300gr cast is a very pleasant load to shoot and it will take deer and boar just fine. Better than heavy 44 magnum pistol loads! The lyman 330 gr Gould hp is my favorite deer bullet, over 23.0 gr 2400 with a 1.0 gr tuft of dacron fiber under the bullet. Fluff the dacron up until it FILLS the space between powder and bullet base. Similar loads of 5744 do not require a filler. In my opinion, 400+ gr bullets are best reserved for buffalo, Moose (Elg) and other LARGE game. Some folks like to use 500 gr on deer, why I have no idea. Heavy recoil, waste of lead. The Gould 330 is THE hunting bullet in the 45/70. Expands well, penetrates like a Nosler partition. Cast it of a moderately soft alloy like 20/1 lead/tin. I use a 95/2.5/2.5 alloy for mine. The 45/70 is a fun shooter and will handle game just fine with BP equivalent loads. Full power loads are not needed for deer/ boar class game. Heavy loads with proper bullets can handle any game on earth, but are not much fun to shoot

[Eamonn]

I've nothing to add on the subject but the Marlin 45-70:s have become somewhat popular for dog handlers in Sweden so you might find some data using VV and Norma powders on a popular swedish reloading/hunting forum called Robsoft.
English is no problem and if you're lucky you might run into some old fox that speaks german.

[Petander]

45-70 is addictive. You will end up with more molds than one.

470 grain Applegate:

https://i.postimg.cc/s21t0WgG/IMG-20190601-201518-486.jpg

RCBS 325:

https://i.postimg.cc/Gt3PqFbZ/IMG-20190530-190929-589.jpg

Mihec 455 HP:

https://i.postimg.cc/zfjFW2rn/IMG-20200130-193141-036.jpg

All these use N130.

My lube was a long time ago messy experiment,you will find better recipes here on board.

[GONRA]

GONRA sez -listen to ChristopherO!!!
Once ya'll powder charge a "Reduced Charge Case" - do SOMETHING to reflect that fact that POWDER CHARGE IS ALREADY IN THE CASE!
[In small cases (5.7x28mm FN subsonic, etc.) drop a nail into charged case.]

Embarrassing Fact is - all over the world, WE'RE ALL IN A BIG HURRY!!
RELOADING AMMO JUST IS NOT A "NICE FIT" in Today Modern Society / World!!!
Gotta face the facts guys / gals!
>>>> AVOID FAMILY DISTRACTIONS! BE CAREFUL! <<<<

[Petander]

I'm searching for a european powder that is good available for me, , that is not very position sensitive, that ignites good and burnes relativly clean even with low pressure. with that I can achieve my 1300 fps with a 405 gr cast bullet. And that filles my case adequate.



Thank you!
Stefan

Published Vihtavuori loads are very good if you can tolerate 1500 fps. I don't see a reason to go for reduced,fast pistol powder loads with 45-70 hunting loads. Don't know why the thread is going that way,my chrono readings in the above post are m/s, not fps.

I used to load subsonic for a suppressed 45-70 with VV 3N37.

https://i.postimg.cc/mr0ckZ7n/IMG-20200131-092905-672.jpg

[seetrout]

Lyman 4th edition cast bullet handbook lists 42gr of VV N135 with the Lyman #457193 405gr in #2 alloy at 2.550" OAL as a starting load in the trapdoor section for a projected velocity of 1272 (they used a universal receiver and 24" barrel). 46.5gr max (for an 1873 Springfield trapdoor rifle) at 1510 projected. You will probably get less in your Marlin. You should not have any problems with load density with this slower burning powder. Best guess from the data I can mine with Google is about 75% load density @ 42gr.
You may have access to VARGET due to it's popularity in the .223 Remington (5.56 NATO) and .308 Winchester (7.62 NATO). This is listed starting at 42.0gr at 1258fps in a trapdoor springfield to a max of 55.0 gr at 1772fps for 1886 Winchester and 1895 Marlin's ONLY. All with the same 405gr Lyman bullet although they list #2 alloy for the trapdoor loads and 20-1 alloy for the Marlin rifle loads.
Pick either and start at min and work your way up until you hit your target velocity.

[Bouteselle]

Just killed this boar. Not very heavy (180lbs), but very very tough, I've rarely seen such a shield.
Thirty yards shot, right in the heart, he dropped in his track.
I used my load, RCBS 45-405, 1/30 tin lead, 425 grains lubed & gas-checked, Ben's red lube, near 1500fps.
The bullit only entered 7 or 8 inches, and mushroomed on the side. I wonder whether I should make my alloy a little harder...

Here in my south, stalking is not practiced; boars are shot only in battues, with dogs, as they're racing... It ain't always easy to shoot'em properly.
Next time I feel like trying RCBS 45-500 with black powder, shot mountain goat with it a long time ago.

256875

256876

[skeettx]

NOW I call that expansion!!!

[Bouteselle]

Other side!

https://i.ibb.co/Qkbtbxz/20200216-115314-1.jpg (https://ibb.co/LrkHksb)

[Schreck5]

Wow, I wonder, was that boolit tumbling when it hit?

[skeettx]

Well
The bullet worked
ALL the energy was transmitted to the pig
No one down range was in harms way
I like it :)

[725]

Bouteselle,
At 1500 fps, I'd harden that bullet a little. 1500 fps is plenty to take game well. Good looking bullet, by the way.

[dkf]

Hog did not know what hit it.

[Bouteselle]

First, I shot this pig in a vineyard, and thinking back on it, perhaps the boolit hit some kind of a wire, or a branch just before reaching the pig. This would explain why the boolit didn't enter so much.
I'll post the pic of the only hole.

Second, I have a batch of 1/16 alloy, which I make use of to cast Gould bullets. I'll give it a try with 45-405, but I doubt it.
My rifle likes .459" sized boolits, and when cast with 1/16 alloy, Gould doesn't work, as they are .457" diameter. Still cast with pure lead, they work roughly, as they come out .458", so they can bump up with black powder, we'll see what happens.

A few weeks ago, I missed an Accurate mold, 46-405 on ebay. Unfortunately I was broke at this time, now I bite my fingers.

I'll post you a pic of a pig I shot a few months ago, same rifle, same load, same alloy. At about ten yards, I've been surprised because the pig popped right out of the bush, so the boolit entered a little in the back. It came through, and the exit hole was about the size of my finger, so very little expansion. The boar ran 30 yards as if nothing had happened, and gave up the ghost. Of course, I never retrieved the bullet.


https://i.ibb.co/Fz6V6yj/20200209-125245-1.jpg (https://ibb.co/hVsfs4t)

https://i.ibb.co/4YVbqMY/20191109-101338-1.jpg (https://ibb.co/wwznkCw)

[kiwi]

If you are looking for a new mould for 45/70 I can recommend the MP molds 462-420 comes wth pins for hollow base and plain base bullets
was designed for the Marlin 45/70 https://i1.wp.com/www.mp-molds.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/2-cav-hollow-point-mold-brass.png?resize=264%2C264&ssl=1

[Hamish]

Monsieur Sanglier died hard! My hat is off to you, shooting pigs on the run is difficult at best.

The shield is no laughing matter. I once put a full length 2514 with a 175 grain Rothaar Snuffer in one about that size and ended up with equal amounts of arrow sticking out both sides. As it was shot out of a 92 lb. bow I was shocked at not getting an easy pass through.

[Bouteselle]

Didn't know MP molds, they look great, and cheap, it's worth trying. I've mostly always bought used molds (but as new), just for a matter of money. I always keep an eye out on Ebay (and others), which allows me to have plenty, and rare ones.

That was no feat of mine! It got out easy, while they usually rush out like dang ducks out of a hailstorm!

[dkf]

The 462-420 from MP is a very good bullet in 45-70 (and others) I got the .460" version so I don't have to size as much. What is nice is the hollowpoint selection with it. With the 1-30 alloy the shallow dish would likely even be large enough for some decent expansion. Getting a 2 cavity keeps the price (and weight) down.

[Bouteselle]

I have no doubt about it, the load works. I tested it at 200 yards, and of course with iron sight, all shots spread within a big hand area. I haven't shot much on the bench, it kicks like a mule, the buttplate is pure murder.
I reckon the bullet barely touched something before hitting the pig. Pretty much the same thing happened two years ago: three boars were running like hell through a vineyard, and they went past me ten yards away.
As I shot my one and only round with the little Garrett Sharps, I heard "Boiinnggg", and the boars were running even faster... The Lyman 457193, pushed by 70grs of Swiss black powder hit a thick metal pole. It was the luckiest pig on earth... with the 1886 it would have been stone cold dead!

[dkf]

It makes sense the bullets grazed something to make it turn, probably a piece of wire or something resilient. A piece of brush, grass or a twig likely is not going to affect a bullet that size very much. either way the bullet did the job sideways.

[nccaster77]

Its very interesting the tale a recovered boolit can tell. My first impression was it hit something and tumbled especially since I saw the vineyard with wire. My guess is you have no issues with your recipes and mix as you have had success with other kills. At this point I think its boils down to an interesting story in the path of a boolit!

[Blackforest]

Many thanks to all of you!
You gave me a lot of information and advice. Now I cant't answer to everybody personally but I want to pick out a few things.

One question was, why I do plan using such heavy bullets in the 400 gr range?
The only reason is, that twist rate should be better for the heavy ones, than the 300 gr boolits.

A few gave the advice to use the Lyman Gould boolit. It should be around 330 grains if I remember it correctly.
For sure that's a very good boolit, but: I've read a lot of articles about hollow point bullets and that it is not very easy to make them perform the way It should do. Many of the writers claim, that sometimes they explode in the animals when shot very close and sometimes the do not expand if the range is too far. So It would be better to use a WFN bullet, that performs more uniform. And if this one mushroomes a litte bit at close range, that's no problem.

Thank you for the Vihtavuori Powder recommendations. But 1500 fps is too much for my application. And the given powders are quite slow. So I am a little bit afraid of lots of unburnt powder in the barrel... because gas pressure is so low...

My gut feeling says: Better use a faster one, like 5744 (Lovex D060) or Unique.

The last days I melded the Airgun pelltes into ingots. The tin is ordered and in a few days/weeks we will start casting the first bullets for another rifle.
So I have a litte bit time left to find the proper mold.
The advice with MP-Molds is very interesting, thanks!

[Blackforest]

Hey guys,

this ist not 45-70, but my first try in bullet casting as a preparation für my 45-70 projekt.
A friend of mine did with me some bullet casting this weekend. Here in Germany we have 21:30 PM and our weekend ist almost over.
These are 170 gr .321 bullets for the old "8,15x46R Schützen Rifle".
Made of 20-1 alloy the mold dropped them at .322. Sized to .321 and lubed with selfmade 60/40 beeswax/vaseline.

I need your advice: The lube is quite sticky and in some grooves there are really small spots without lube. Is this a problem?
Would you give 2/1 (=66/33) a try to make the lube a little bit harder? Or ist this result prober lubing?

263579 263580

[skeettx]

Hello
No the spots are not an issue
What action do you have for the 8.15?
Mine is a Swiss Martini
Are these loaded rounds for hunting or target?
Mike

[Ozark mike]

Looks good as far as the loob i try to make sure its even maybe its not that important but im picky.
A heavier bullet is more effecent in shorter bbls like a guide gun. I like h322 just takes a lot of pressure to get it to burn without leaving granules in the bbl of my bfr

[Blackforest]

Hello
No the spots are not an issue

Thank you for your help!


What action do you have for the 8.15?
Mine is a Swiss Martini

The action is an "Aydt Feuerstutzen" from Suhl, Germany.


Are these loaded rounds for hunting or target?
Mike

These bullets are made for target shooting at 100 m.
But I am a hunter and maybe I will try to shoot a roe deer this winter with that rifle.
I'm curious to test their terminal performance... meplat is not big... I dont know if it's a good hunting bullet.

[Blackforest]

Looks good as far as the loob i try to make sure its even maybe its not that important but im picky.
A heavier bullet is more effecent in shorter bbls like a guide gun. I like h322 just takes a lot of pressure to get it to burn without leaving granules in the bbl of my bfr

The problem is: I am picky, too!
How can i get rid of these spots?
Harder lube? Tried more pressure on my Lymen 4500 Sizer and Lubricator, but it didn' help. Well, de spots are really small, but they exist on some bullets.

[Ozark mike]

I pan or hand lube dont own a lubersizer but looks like you got air trapped more experienced people here will be able to help you there id say warm up your lube. I dont think it is enough to throw it out of balance

[seb2567]

First, I shot this pig in a vineyard, and thinking back on it, perhaps the boolit hit some kind of a wire, or a branch just before reaching the pig. This would explain why the boolit didn't enter so much.
I'll post the pic of the only hole.

Second, I have a batch of 1/16 alloy, which I make use of to cast Gould bullets. I'll give it a try with 45-405, but I doubt it.
My rifle likes .459" sized boolits, and when cast with 1/16 alloy, Gould doesn't work, as they are .457" diameter. Still cast with pure lead, they work roughly, as they come out .458", so they can bump up with black powder, we'll see what happens.

A few weeks ago, I missed an Accurate mold, 46-405 on ebay. Unfortunately I was broke at this time, now I bite my fingers.

I'll post you a pic of a pig I shot a few months ago, same rifle, same load, same alloy. At about ten yards, I've been surprised because the pig popped right out of the bush, so the boolit entered a little in the back. It came through, and the exit hole was about the size of my finger, so very little expansion. The boar ran 30 yards as if nothing had happened, and gave up the ghost. Of course, I never retrieved the bullet.


https://i.ibb.co/Fz6V6yj/20200209-125245-1.jpg (https://ibb.co/hVsfs4t)

https://i.ibb.co/4YVbqMY/20191109-101338-1.jpg (https://ibb.co/wwznkCw)

Can you share some of your loads ? I'm using VV n120 an 130 but didn't do a lot of tests in this caliber and I'm going to start since ranges are reopening,
I own a 350gr HP/400gr flat nose mold and I just received a 514gr HP mold
Do you prefer hollow point or flat nose to hunt with ?

Btw I'm also from south of france !

[Bouteselle]

Howdy!

HP or solid, I use the most accurate load.
These pigs were shot with rcbs 45-405, 427 grains lubed and gaschecked, 1/30 tin to lead, backed by 3,10 grammes of SP10... works great in the Browning 1886.
Last year I sold my AR, and I still had two cans of SP10 powder. I gave it a try in 45-70 as I found a load in charts.
IMO it's excellent for heavy bullets, I'm not happy with lighters for the moment, but I'm still searching.
So for pigs, it's SP10 or Swiss black powder. I don't use VV, cause I already have cans and cans of powder, for target and hunting, I'm trying to standardise....! PM me for more.

[TCLouis]

IF you have not already bought the mold why don't you consider 300-325 grain boolit lke those from RCBS molds.
Don't need a gas check at the pedestrian 1400 fps velocity.

One of my molds is the Lee 340 grain Boolit and I have had no trouble with it casting or shooting.

[robg]

lee molds are avalible from henry kranks in the uk.i use them often good people to deal with.they stock plenty of powders as well.

[Blackforest]

Hey boolit casters!

There are news!
A german custom mold manufacturer https://www.hensel-giesskokillen.de made us a copy of Tom's "46-405V"
The mold has the size of .462.
With 20/1 alloy cast at 370 to 380°C (700 to 730°F) it gives out bullets of .4595 to .460.
They weight 404 gr and have a 80% meplat.
Not we'll size them to .458 for our .456 Marlin GBL bore.

We plan to use the Accurate 5744 (D060) powder somewhere in the range vom 26 gr to 29 gr to stay under 1300 fps.273863273864

The first 30 boolits sized to .458 and lubed with selfmade lube 2 parts beeswax and 1 part vaseline273866

[koger]

Those are some dang nice looking boolits my friend, I am glad you found a good mold! The pigs better look out now.

[ChristopherO]

Beautiful cast boolits. I'm surprised your groove measurements were .456 for your Marlin, or is that for the lands? My 1895 measures out at .4585 for the groove diameter, which gives best accuracy with .460 cast boolits.

[Blackforest]

Beautiful cast boolits. I'm surprised your groove measurements were .456 for your Marlin, or is that for the lands? My 1895 measures out at .4585 for the groove diameter, which gives best accuracy with .460 cast boolits.

We were surprised, too.
We measured the throat diameter with Cerrosafe (https://www.brownells-deutschland.de/CERROSAFE-CHAMBER-CASTING-ALLOY-1-2-lb-Cerrosafe-BROWNELLS-080027050) after 1 hour and it was .456. At the muzzle side it was .4575 to .4578.
That is quite a tight bore, right?

[robg]

euro powder regs have banned many popular powders IMR included .

[Rick R]

For what it’s worth, I took a Whitetail doe at about 50 yards this year using my Marlin Guide Gun. The load was a 360gr NOE boolit at a bit over 1900fps, she stumbled at the shot, ran about 20 yards up hill and toppled over. No lost meat, no drama. Just like the deer last year, and the year before that, and the year...

I use Varget, 2 grains below the listed max load on Hodgdon’s website for a 350gr jacketed round nose. We’ve shot that load in several Marlins with complete satisfaction. This year a friend offered to replace the Marlin brick with a Pachmayr Decelerator sporting clays recoil pad. That is a great modification for the quick shooting you seem to encounter.

The .45/70 will work well with powders suitable for loading .223 or .308 and you may find better accuracy in the 1,600-1,900fps range.

[Hamish]

We were surprised, too.
We measured the throat diameter with Cerrosafe (https://www.brownells-deutschland.de/CERROSAFE-CHAMBER-CASTING-ALLOY-1-2-lb-Cerrosafe-BROWNELLS-080027050) after 1 hour and it was .456. At the muzzle side it was .4575 to .4578.
That is quite a tight bore, right?

You may wish to think about throating that rifle mein freund.

[Bouteselle]

Gentlemen,
I've a new experience to share.
After killing a few boars with RCBS 45-405 boolits, I wasn't totally satisfied. As I said, here we're hunting in group hunts, and woods are very thick, so I don't know in advance if the boar will be big or small, and in all cases I've a quarter of a second to shoot, far or close range.
So I switched to hollow points, I searched for something better.
I ordered a 460 MP mold, and I got a beautiful bullet, plenty accurate in my 1886 Browning rifle. I cast'em in 1/16 alloy (7/8 BHN), 420 grains, near 1500 fps, and I was very confident with those wide HP cartridges.
Last sunday, it wasn't a boar that jumped out of the bush... it was a chevreuil, which is something much smaller than your deers. I shot it thirty yards away, as it jumped over the path. Shot placement wasn't very good, but It didn't go far.
As we skinned it, we noticed there was only one hole, rather shallow, and I found no bullet, nor lead fragment... the wound is about the size of my fist, and the deer is pretty fragile, but what would have happened if I had shot a big boar??
So I wonder what I'll do:
-I can harden my alloy seriously, for exemple 50/50 lead linotype.
-Or I keep on using this alloy, and I switch for the cup nose pins
-I can also reduce pins diameter, harden a little, and obtain a "heavier Gould style" bullet

I'm less confident with HPs, but I think it's worth trying again, I just need the right combination.

https://i.goopics.net/800/GbXGk.jpg (https://goopics.net/i/GbXGk)

[robg]

love those boolits.

[outdoorfan]

I would definitely use the cup point, and I would definitely harden the bullet so that you can get at least 12 BHN or so. But I think a little bit harder would even be better.

[Blackforest]

Gentlemen,
I've a new experience to share.
[...]

Hey Bouteselle,

many thanks for your information.
These bullets are beautys!
What diameter do they come out of your mold?

The following is only read knowledge, not confirmed in the field:


Hollowpoints need to be soft, so they mushroom reliable and don't fragment. If you cast hollowpoints out of a harder alloy, they won't act as uniform as very soft boolits would do. On a skinny roe deer with very little body resistance against bullet impact the may even not expand and pass through as a solid. And on the shoulder of a big boar they get very hard resistance at the impact, so the brittle and hard bullet may fragment. The velocity where they act as they supossed to do could be quite narrow... to find this velicity could be quite difficult I believe...
If you want to get less brutal terminal performance, I would give it a try, stay with your 16/1 alloy but shoot them only at 1300 fps. These beautyful wide hollow points seem to perform very well a lower velocitys.
If the first try with less speed doesn't lead to success, I would make the hollow point a litte bit narrower. Maybe the size in between "The Gould bullet" and your actual diameter.
If the smaller hollow point is still too brutal, I would try these bullet without Hollow Point.
There is a respected forum member "Crusty Deary Ol'Coot", he swears of wide flat nose bullets, without hollow point. His views correspond with all the literature that I collected to this subject. Because of this, I went the way with WFN bullets, in my case an 80% meplat. These days we'll test the loadings and then we'll shoot some game an will see, how the perform. Please give us some weeks, and we can tell you (and share photos) of the terminal performance of our non hollow point WFN bullets. I hope, that the big meplat makes the use of a hollow point unnecessary when the bullet is of the size of .45 cal. I don't know, but we will try. :-)


Blackforest

[Bouteselle]

I eard you all.
So I switched to the cup point and I cast boolits in 1/4 linotype, 3/4 pure lead alloy. I got 10/13 bhn hardness.
After I tryed to harden a little, and I mix 50/50 linotype and pure lead, an all-purpose recipe I found in the Robert Ballowe book. But I obtained a 19 bhn on my hardness tester, and the weight is down from 420 to 390 grains. Not convinced, I think it's too hard… Perhaps I'll go back with 1/4-3/4 mix, I need to think about it.

https://i.goopics.net/800/dlxpd.jpg (https://goopics.net/i/dlxpd)

[Blackforest]

I eard you all.
So I switched to the cup point and I cast boolits in 1/4 linotype, 3/4 pure lead alloy. I got 10/13 bhn hardness.
After I tryed to harden a little, and I mix 50/50 linotype and pure lead, an all-purpose recipe I found in the Robert Ballowe book. But I obtained a 19 bhn on my hardness tester, and the weight is down from 420 to 390 grains. Not convinced, I think it's too hard… Perhaps I'll go back with 1/4-3/4 mix, I need to think about it.


Definitely I would go to the way softer recipe.
Do you have ballistic gel?
I dont, so I shoot into things like water filled milk jugs... That's not perfekt but to see if a bullet fragments or mushrooms it is okay, Ithink.
You may test it and see, if the harder alloy does what it should do...

[taco650]

I eard you all.
So I switched to the cup point and I cast boolits in 1/4 linotype, 3/4 pure lead alloy. I got 10/13 bhn hardness.
After I tryed to harden a little, and I mix 50/50 linotype and pure lead, an all-purpose recipe I found in the Robert Ballowe book. But I obtained a 19 bhn on my hardness tester, and the weight is down from 420 to 390 grains. Not convinced, I think it's too hard… Perhaps I'll go back with 1/4-3/4 mix, I need to think about it.

https://i.goopics.net/800/dlxpd.jpg (https://goopics.net/i/dlxpd)

I suggest using your original alloy mix but dropping the bullet into a bucket of cool water straight from the mold. This will raise the hardness some but not as much as heat treating them in the oven as some do. With the smaller cup point and a BHN of 12-13 you might get better results.

[Mmacro]

Wheel weights, pure lead (50/50) and a little tin to help it flow... The WW’s have a touch of antimony in them and will let you heat treat or water quench them to bump up the hardness a little over pure lead but keep the soft lead performance. The antimony is a crystalline structure and what increases the hardness.
If you go with that mix, or just a lead/tin alloy, you can powder coat your soft bullets and then fire them at speeds that would normally lead the barrel... But you get great mushrooming of hollow points or “riviting” of flat point bullets.

[Blackforest]

Hey there,
during the last year we got some roe deer with our cast load.
Terminal ballistics are quite good. The meplat works really well.
With the chosen powder we had some unburnt powder residues in the barrel. We would like to try to eliminate them by switching to Vihtavuori N110. We've loaded 25, 27, and 29 gr, but haven't shot them already.

By the way, what do you think of the amount of roll crimp I've put on the cartridge?
Is it right?
I followed the cast bullet handbook from lyman: The right amount of crimp is, when you run down the bullet with your fingernail over the case mouth. If it doeas not hang up on the case mouth, the crimp is enough.
303402

[taco650]

Hey there,
during the last year we got some roe deer with our cast load.
Terminal ballistics are quite good. The meplat works really well.
With the chosen powder we had some unburnt powder residues in the barrel. We would like to try to eliminate them by switching to Vihtavuori N110. We've loaded 25, 27, and 29 gr, but haven't shot them already.

By the way, what do you think of the amount of roll crimp I've put on the cartridge?
Is it right?
I followed the cast bullet handbook from lyman: The right amount of crimp is, when you run down the bullet with your fingernail over the case mouth. If it doeas not hang up on the case mouth, the crimp is enough.
303402

Looks good as long as there isn’t a bulge in the brass below the crimp

[BLAHUT]

I shoot a 45/70> using a lee 515 fp in my guide gun mold #c57500f at .457 ol 2.55 27 g>rs 5744 > this my bear load for fishing> this is a heavy load> black horn209 at 42grs with a 500gr bullet - light compression > 500gr with 12grs unique power > .460 card wad over powder with a plastic wad over card under bullet> keeps powder down on primer> i use only lr mag primers> i also use the 515gr with unque in my 45/60 for deer>
i shoot only soft/pure lead> make my own lub> head shots do not waste much meat.
In my roler with blackhorn 209 with a 500gr is accurate out to over 1000yds>

[Blackforest]

Hey boolit casters,

there is some news.
We've testet the 405 gr WFN bullet with Vihtaviori N110. The results were good. The powder seems not to be very position sensitive. We didn't use any kind of filler. Very clean powder burning, good consistency.
312111

Then we've tried another mould. The hollow point mould "MP-Mold 462 Hammer" Item: 11082. 325 gr (depends on hollow point pin)
We have chosen the new Reload Swiss RS 14 powder. It is very similar to Hodgdon TrailBoss, that is no longer available on the european market.

All velocitys @ 10m out of the 19" barrel of a Marlin GBL.
With the deep hollow (9mm deep) point our bullets fragmented over 290 m/s.
There is a picture of our 10 gr load with 289 m/s :
312113
312114
Well, the load density with 10 gr was only 52 %. We don't want to go below that.

Then we've testet the small hollow point (5mm deep):
312115
312116
312117

That are the results for expansion in water filled plastic bags. The recovered bullets were fired into 10 Liter really thin walled garbage bags and stopped around 100 cm travel through the water. Well, that is not like ballistic gelatin, but I have to do my tests with what I have available.
The large HP fragmented above 290 m/s. Maybe it is better suited for .45 handguns than for .45-70 rifle loads. Or only for long range applications over 150 m or for self defense where brutal fragmentation is no problem.
The small HP mushroomed beautiful from 280 m/s (18mm, .71 cal), 300 m/s (21mm, .83 cal), 320 m/s (22mm, .87 cal) and 340 m/s (22mm, .87 cal, too). I did not test loads under 280 m/s. Weight retention was always 100 % (326 gr). At 350 m/s the bullets fragmentet, the whole nose shed off. Well, if shot at 340 m/s at the muzzle, these loads hold the velocity of 280 m/s out to 150m – awesome!
My alloy was also 20-1 binary lead-tin alloy, like written in my previous review. In the future I will test 30-1 or even 40-1 alloy, maybe it makes my velocity range where I get reliable expansion a little big bigger. Pressure of my loads should be from 600 Bar to 1000 Bar, so the softer alloy should be good to go.
What do you experts think of that idea? Should we give 40-1 a try?

You know, we use air rifle pellets from the bullet trap as "lead source" and pewter stuff als "tin source".
A laboratory analysed our alloy:
Pb 94,04%
Sn 4,15%
Sb 0,52%
unknown rest 1,29 %
Maybe the 0,52 % antimony and the 1,29% rest make it a little bit more brittle.

We will test these bullets on light and thin skinned european roe deer and wild boars.
Loads where made with Reload Swiss RS 14, the new bulky and low energy powder, very similar to Hodgdon TrailBoss. It burns very clean, and extremly consistent.
Load was from 10 to 18 gr. From 280 m/s to 370 m/s measured at 10m. An from 52 % case filling to 93 %.
The 10 gr load has only 600 Bar pressure and the velocity was very consistent. Up to 15-16 gr there was very consistent velocity measurement.
At 17 gr and above there was some difference between the shots (1500 Bar range).

At 50 m we shot with not perfekt gun rest groups of 2-3 cm. With perfect sandbags there should be a improvement!

[mnewcomb59]

I would suggest placing a few layers of denim on the outside of the first water jug to slow the expansion. Deer are covered in fur, people are covered in clothes, and both things plug the hollow point and make it expand less.

Your highest velocity load that fragmented will likely not fragment on a live target. First, the water is harder on a bullet than ballistic gel or animals and makes the bullet expand wider. Second, animals fur will slightly plug the HP and make a lower expanded diameter. Third, those light weight 45 bullets have a bad ballistic coeffecient and you will lose a lot of speed within 50 meters down range. I am not sure what you are using for your ballistic coefficient number, but I would guess that bullet has a BC of .18-.2.

The very first thing I would do before I change the alloy would be to test your fastest load with two layers of denim on the first jug. You will likely find that you still have 100% weight retention and the bare water shot was a little bit misleading.

[Blackforest]

I would suggest placing a few layers of denim on the outside of the first water jug to slow the expansion. Deer are covered in fur, people are covered in clothes, and both things plug the hollow point and make it expand less.

Good idea! I will try that!


Your highest velocity load that fragmented will likely not fragment on a live target. First, the water is harder on a bullet than ballistic gel or animals and makes the bullet expand wider. Second, animals fur will slightly plug the HP and make a lower expanded diameter. Third, those light weight 45 bullets have a bad ballistic coeffecient and you will lose a lot of speed within 50 meters down range. I am not sure what you are using for your ballistic coefficient number, but I would guess that bullet has a BC of .18-.2.

Yes, your correct. Water is very hard on bullets. I keep that in mind for my interpretations of the test results.
I have no BC for that bullet, calculated with .200 by comparing to other similar bullets on the market.


The very first thing I would do before I change the alloy would be to test your fastest load with two layers of denim on the first jug. You will likely find that you still have 100% weight retention and the bare water shot was a little bit misleading.

I will try that, thanks!

[Blackforest]

Here is some information and comparison between 20-1 alloy and 40-1 alloy.

With the 40-1 alloy I tryied 4 layers of thin cloth (like T-Shirt).

I know, water bags is not ballistic gelatin, but to get a rough idea it should be fine. :-)

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I will stay with the 40-1 alloy because of it's possibility to mushroom below 280 m/s or 900 fps and will load them someting around 340 m/s or 1100 fps for testing on roe deer.

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Very interesting was: with the lightest load at 282 m/s or 925 fps, there was almost no difference in mushrooming with or without the layers of cloth.

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Well, maybe I have to get into the theory of making my own ballistics gelatin to make this test more representative...we will see.

[Dom]

Sorry to hear about your difficulty to obtain needed powder, etc. I have posted a picture of four .458 bullets I cast. From the left is a Lyman 310gr HP, Saeco 350 gr with GC, NOE ( I think ) 390 gr PB , & an RCBS 405gr GC style. I use scrap wheel weights so my bullets come out a bit heavier. The RCBS 405gr comes out 422grs with my alloy, & a BHN of 10.5. I drive most of these with Alliant 2400, & a small tuft of Dacron. Works great . I have an old sleeping bag that has a life time supply of Dacron. Don't be afraid to use the filler, except with Unique. . Most all my loads are at 1300 to 1350 fps. The 422gr at 1300 fps delivers impressive penetration. Should easily handle game , at least up to 1000 lbs. The Buffalo ( 1200 lbs ) was almost wiped out with a slower load than this. It penetrates like a freight train. I use a Marlin XLR stainless with 24" Bbl. It has what Marlin calls " Deep Grove Ballard Style " rifling. Very good accuracy with my loads. Hope this is helpful.

[seb2567]

Black forest, I have used the same boolit last season on a hog (mp 462 hammer), my load is 49,5gr vvN130 (wich for me seems a little more accurate,with more speed) and it did a lot of damage on the meat, the bullet literally exploded inside the hog, so this year I plan on using the same mold, but with a flatpoint and I think it will be better

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[ChristopherO]

With only 1 part tin to 40 parts of soft lead and the wide nose your boolit has I tend to agree with seb2567, a pure flat nose should be plenty sufficient. The nose will impact very hard and the soft boolit will deform even without a hole in the nose. The old buffalo boolits were soft, such as what you are casting, and they used round nose designs that expanded quite nicely on game. The hog hide is certainly thicker and tougher than a roe deer hide, but with the flat nose there won't be any issue in that regard.
You've put the time in and brought out excellent research in the process. I, too, use lined up water jugs at 100 yards to test my range scrap cast boolits in the 45/70. That is somewhat harder than what you are using, but they leave the muzzle at about 1,700 fps.
Accurate 420 grain 460" Gas Check
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This one was pulled out of the dirt berm at 100 yards:
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Water Jugs:
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There is expansion in Whitetail deer, but not to this extent from everything I can tell. The game doesn't like them and don't stay on their feet for very long.

[Petander]

Please do not play around with VV N110 in 45-70.

Here is some proper Vihtavuori data.

https://i.postimg.cc/mgvt4mr9/VOY-Rifle-reloading-data-45-70-Govt.png

[Petander]

I made a batch of pure lead (airgun pellet scrap) bullets for 45-70 Marlin SBL.

This is a Mihec 400 grain, as NLG it drops 445 grn (#2) and with pure I got 460 grn now.

I double PC:d these and intend to shoot 1500 fps. Any guesses about leading are welcome,I do not know what to expect from a 5,4 BHN plain base boolit here.

https://i.postimg.cc/6qFdCBKL/IMG-20230501-152812-166-3.jpg