curio and relic license low down

[sixgunner452]

I just retired and now have alot more time than money. I have always been interested in the C&R license. Can any of you guys enlighten me? Costs, Pro's, Cons, etc. many thanks, Randy.

[Wayne Smith]

I've twice renewed mine. Haven't bought anything recently but for $10/yr why not?

[hpdrifter]

I let my license expire....accidentally. I forgot to renew in time and didn't feel like going thru the process again.

Haven't really missed it. Of course, I hesitated to buy some of the surplus rifles(K-31, mausers, etc) that now cost and arm and a leg, so didn't really put it to good use. I used it mainly for discounts at a few gun parts stores....Midway(now doesn't honor it), Brownells, and a few others.

Since I never bought any C&R firearms, I never got a visit from the feds. I don't know if they visit on a regular basis, but I never got visited in 12 or so years I had it.

[Battis]

I just renewed mine for the next three years. I live in MA where you need a permit for a staple gun. I've been able to buy guns with the C&R that otherwise wouldn't be available to me unless they were already in the state. If I didn't need it, I probably wouldn't have it. $30 for three years.

[sixgunner452]

I've really been thinking about trying it out. Seems like a lot less hassle than a class1 FFL to maintain. I hope to get a few C&R weapons, really want the discount on ammo and components. Love the idea of getting guns shipped to my house, not paying FFL dealers. Like Wayne Smith stated, really hard to beat 10 dollars a year to maintain it. Randy.

[EMC45]

I had mine twice. Bought exactly one Mosin with it. Midway stopped honoring them and the milsurps started drying up so I just let it go.

[dverna]

I had one for a few years. Not expensive, but I never used it. Realized I had too many guns I wasn’t shooting. The incentive to buy cheap mil-surp guns vanished when I could buy a better new gun for the same. $$$.

Makes sense if you are a collector.

[415m3]

I got one last year and have picked up 4 rifles and a pistol....it's bad for my wallet but has paid for itself

[kens]

I had mine back in the '90's before Clinton stopped most of the imports. I collected some cool stuff.
After Clinton stopped the imports, it was mostly good for instant background check, and, buying ammo, cash&carry,
YMMV

[tomme boy]

Grafs used to be the best place for the discount. Then one day they sent an email that said you had to do like $5K/year in sales from them. Then Midway and a few others.

Never heard of very many people getting a visit for an audit. Since you are not actually in a business they don't care.

[Stewbaby]

I’ve saved over $1,000 in transfer fees in five years. Rifles straight to my door (or held at UPS/USPS/FedEx as needed). I’ve also used it to buy C&R guns when traveling out of state that I’d otherwise have missed or had to ship to an FFL.

[762 shooter]

I've had a C&R for a while. Getting rifles delivered to your door without going through a dealer and transfer fee is too cool.

It's too bad you can only use it on those "old" guns that were manufactured before 1970.

Back when they were made of those crappy materials like wood and steel.

762

[alamogunr]

I've renewed mine at least 4 times. I'll go a year to 15 mo. between purchases, sometimes less. I'm not really a collector. I only buy what I intend to reload for and shoot. All remain as issued, no sporterizing(bubbaizing?).

I just checked my inventory. I have 18 milsurps on the list. Actually, 17 because there is one Winchester 94 that was old enough to qualify.

[Maineboy]

I had one for years and stopped renewing it 2 years ago. The first few years I used it a lot, that's when there were a more milsurps around. When they began drying up I stopped buying but still renewed out of habit. I can't see a reason for having one now.

[mazo kid]

Some people will offer to sell you info, forms, etc. to apply for the C&R FFL. NO need to do that as everything you need is available free on-line.

[EMC45]

Some people will offer to sell you info, forms, etc. to apply for the C&R FFL. NO need to do that as everything you need is available free on-line.


Correct. I just contacted the BATFE direct and I got all the forms in the mail.

[Wayne Smith]

It's not just milsurps - just about anything 50 years old or older fits - not everything, but most. For instance, when I get the cash my next purchase will be a S&W Mdl 10. Common, all of the police turn ins that will be coming back on the market when their original purchasers go are more than 50 years old. Many of the Mdl 15's likewise.

[Catch22]

I ended up letting mine expire while I was in the middle of a move. I plan on getting it back sooner than later.

The biggest benefit I saw with having one was that you don't have to worry about shipping to an FFL and the fees associated. That's one less person involved in handling it and with $20 or more per transfer, you save that $30 fee pretty rapidly.

It also made it more convenient if I was out of state and saw a C&R arm I wanted, especially if it was a handgun. No concerns about transferring to an FFL in your home state and all that.

My biggest problem may have been it was *too* convenient. My wife was constantly wondering where that "new" gun came from. Especially if it was some lowball bid on Gunbroker that I fluked out figuring there was no way I'd win it.

[sixgunner452]

Gentlemen, I think you talked me into it. Think I'm gonna have to do it. many thanks, Randy.

[Geezer in NH]

Dropped mine after a partner in the LLC 07 license we held had an in home inspection by BAFTE. So never say it don't happen. The agent did a full inspection and dis not like being able to handle the fire arms. My partner called the lawyer first thing , the lawyer told the agent any damage done would be on the agency. The partner was a Colt collector Any marks on the gun including one cocking would devalue the gun by 1/2.

After 5 hours of inspection the agent stated he would need another day. My partner asked why he was getting such action as the Manufacturing 07 shop he was a partner in never had such an inspection. Agent was stunned and said you hold another license? [so much for knowing what you are doing eh?]

He still came back the next day but the Partners Lawyer was also there so the inspection ended.

I dropped my C&R at the next re-newel. So did others at the shop and gun club.

I pay the FFL fee now when I need it also fill out the forms at dealers when I buy but no inspections without court orders happen.

[gunauthor]

What did the ATFE make you do to surrender your license (paperwork, etc.)? I just renewed my permit, but have bought few C&R firearms recently.

[John Boy]

It may cost a few bucks for transfer fees through a FFL, but with a C&R license you are exposing yourself to a BTAF knock on your door. It's none of their business what's in your safe(s)

[wv109323]

The license is not for business. It is for individuals to purchase firearms 50 years old and curios. The list of what can be bought changes every day. The list of guns that can be bought is rather amazing. You can sell but it is limited by vague language.
It does open up your home for inspection by the BATFE where otherwise a warrant would be needed.
Fewer and fewer suppliers recgonize the license and give a discount on orders. That use to be an attractive part of the license.

[Ramson222]

if you are going to purchase more than one firearm a C&R can save you a lot of money. I have saved about $200 since getting my C&R. Also a C&R lets you buy directly from Simpson ltd. quite a few firearms on there that can be purchased with a C&R. Do not look at the following webpage, its worse than gambling. https://simpsonltd.com/long-guns/military-rifles/?sort=priceasc

[goryshaw]

Going through paperwork recently and discovered mine expired in December. Haven't used it since 2017 so didn't notice. Waiting for start date for new job then I'll send in paperwork for 2nd renewal, then buy something to scratch the itch. The Mas-49/56 and Hakims that Classic has are tempting :)

[Shawlerbrook]

Unfortunately here in NYS a C&R license is no longer valid under the recent SafeAct. All transfers require a background check unless you have a full fledged ffl.

[NoZombies]

Read the rules and laws careful, and you'll see that the 03 only requires the records and guns associated with the license to be available for inspection by an officer at a pre-appointed time and location. Because you aren't licensed to do business, they can't make "surprise visits" during business hours... there in no business, nor does it allow the ATF to inspect the business premises, as, again, there is no business. If you're contacted to schedule an audit, you may request to meet at the ATF field office or another agreed upon location.

The 03FFL does NOT give the ATF the right to search or inspect your home without a warrant. And it only gives them the right to inspect the guns purchased on the license, and the records related to those, not the rest of the collection.

Now, with that said, it doesn't mean that an agent won't overstep the bounds, but the rules are clear.

[762 shooter]

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[762 shooter]

Read the rules and laws careful, and you'll see that the 03 only requires the records and guns associated with the license to be available for inspection by an officer at a pre-appointed time and location. Because you aren't licensed to do business, they can't make "surprise visits" during business hours... there in no business, nor does it allow the ATF to inspect the business premises, as, again, there is no business. If you're contacted to schedule an audit, you may request to meet at the ATF field office or another agreed upon location.

The 03FFL does NOT give the ATF the right to search or inspect your home without a warrant. And it only gives them the right to inspect the guns purchased on the license, and the records related to those, not the rest of the collection.

Now, with that said, it doesn't mean that an agent won't overstep the bounds, but the rules are clear.

I agree with this.

I have learned that most people do not actually read the regulations. I researched and carefully read what I was getting into.

762

[30calflash]

There's been some fair input here on acquiring and owning while having a C&R FFL.

How about when selling with one? I ask as I've wanted one for a time but now am looking at selling off some of my pieces that would fall into the C&R category. Most were purchased at retail on my end.

[Catch22]

There's been some fair input here on acquiring and owning while having a C&R FFL.

How about when selling with one? I ask as I've wanted one for a time but now am looking at selling off some of my pieces that would fall into the C&R category. Most were purchased at retail on my end.

You'll actually find the information in the documents the ATF will send you, but here's the basics. While you have your license, any CR eligible firearm you obtain or "dispose" of must be logged for the duration of the license.

If you own it before the license, you don't have to log it unless you sell it if it's C&R. At that point you must log it. It doesn't necessarily even have to be a sale, even if you trade or gift it to someone, you are supposed to log it.

If you don't use the license to purchase it, you still have to log it if it's C&R. That includes if it's gifted or procured as part of a trade.

It's not about "using" the license, it's about "having" one.

[Adam Helmer]

My opinion is the C&R License merely reestablishes the Constitutional Rights ALL Citizens had under the Second Amendment BEFORE GCA 1968! How many Criminals fill out a BATFE Form 4473 to Acquire their guns? WHY must honest folks fill out a BATFE form NO criminal bothers with?

The GCA 68 merely established a HUGE new federal agency that HAS had NO need!

IF BATFE DID it's job since 1968, why is it now needed to Regulate honest citizens?
When will BATFE "Work" it's way OUT of IT's JOB?? WHY would it be a FOREVER Restriction on ALL Honest Citizens? Why was BATFE NOT needed Before 1968?????

Adam

[30calflash]

You'll actually find the information in the documents the ATF will send you, but here's the basics. While you have your license, any CR eligible firearm you obtain or "dispose" of must be logged for the duration of the license.

If you own it before the license, you don't have to log it unless you sell it if it's C&R. At that point you must log it. It doesn't necessarily even have to be a sale, even if you trade or gift it to someone, you are supposed to log it.

If you don't use the license to purchase it, you still have to log it if it's C&R. That includes if it's gifted or procured as part of a trade.

It's not about "using" the license, it's about "having" one.

Ok thank you, that sums it up well.

[Adam Helmer]

Will anyone TELL me HOW many Criminals BATFE snagged this year, or last, with ALL their Rules and Regulations? I understand they will Regulate Honest Citizens, but WHY has BATFE NOT, YET, worked itself OUT of Job??? What is the End GOAL?

How does BATFE "Measure" it's "Success?" Why is that agency needed???

Adam

[alamogunr]

Very few governmental agencies justify their existence. The FBI publishes crime statistics but since those statistics reflect less crime where concealed carry and other 2nd Amendment rights have been enacted into law, they are mostly ignored by the left.

[Catch22]

Will anyone TELL me HOW many Criminals BATFE snagged this year, or last, with ALL their Rules and Regulations? I understand they will Regulate Honest Citizens, but WHY has BATFE NOT, YET, worked itself OUT of Job??? What is the End GOAL?

How does BATFE "Measure" it's "Success?" Why is that agency needed???

Adam

They have statistics and information on their website.

BATFE actually does quite a bit. I know most gun folks, myself included, tend to be critical of them, but having worked with them on a handful of occasions, they are a good group of folks and do a tough job.

You'd probably be surprised how many explosives and arson incidents they are involved with.

When it comes to firearms, there are stats that have been available for years of how many federal laws they deal with that aren't prosecuted. Tens of thousands annually That's not necessarily on them, but on the DoJ for not prosecuting.

[Adam Helmer]

They have statistics and information on their website.

BATFE actually does quite a bit. I know most gun folks, myself included, tend to be critical of them, but having worked with them on a handful of occasions, they are a good group of folks and do a tough job.

You'd probably be surprised how many explosives and arson incidents they are involved with.

When it comes to firearms, there are stats that have been available for years of how many federal laws they deal with that aren't prosecuted. Tens of thousands annually That's not necessarily on them, but on the DoJ for not prosecuting.

Catch22,

IF BATFE Went Away, WHO would notice? All they are Is another Expensive federal agency that has an "Empire" to EXPAND to justify their existence.

Before 1968 we had NO BATFE, were we Less safe back then? Are we safer now???

WHAT has BATFE done besides harass Honest gun owners? WHEN will BATFE end it's existence??? It did not exist Before 1968, so why is it needed now??? As Regan said, "Nothing is more permanent than a government agency." How many criminals has BATFE snagged versus Honest citizen???

Adam

[Burnt Fingers]

I had one for a few years. My biggest problem was getting dealers to actually recognize the 50 year rule. I NEVER was able to buy a 50+ year old firearm without going through the 4473 and background check.

Sure there are a few mail-order houses that will recognize it, but their stock is somewhat limited. When you run across that '50's Colt revolver at the pawn shop or gun store they are going to stick to what they know, 4473 and background check.

[Catch22]

I had one for a few years. My biggest problem was getting dealers to actually recognize the 50 year rule. I NEVER was able to buy a 50+ year old firearm without going through the 4473 and background check.

Sure there are a few mail-order houses that will recognize it, but their stock is somewhat limited. When you run across that '50's Colt revolver at the pawn shop or gun store they are going to stick to what they know, 4473 and background check.

I've experienced a mix of that. Some are knowledgeable and will recognize the C&R without issue, and some you couldn't convince. If I was in the shop making a face-to-face purchase, I usually just did the 4473 rather than even have the discussion.

Gunbroker was where I tended to have issues. Most sellers, especially in the C&R section, aren't an issue. There was that occasional guy that was a pain. I always made sure before bidding, though. Armslist is another place where there was a mix. Forums like here and gunboards I rarely had an issue, though.

I do miss the days where we had C&R Facebook groups where a guy could buy, sell, and swap. Everyone knew what a C&R was and there were no issues.

[Wayne Smith]

I have my FFL03 and FFL06? - ammo manufacturing because I sometimes send castboolits to others and I'm a little compulsive. Anyway, the first time I got them I had a nice visit from two young ladies from BATF, one a trainee. They tried to start hard but when I told them why I got the O6 they started asking serious questions about how I did it - cast - and the safety issues involved. They really didn't know. Then I told them that LOML was a geologist for DEQ- the Department Of Environmental Quality - and she made sure I was doing it right. We actually had a rather nice visit. I've maintained both licenses since then and not heard a peep from the BATF since. Moral of the story, know your stuff and don't be intimidated.

[reddog81]

I had one for a couple of years and bought a couple of eligible guns from aimsurplus and classicfirearms but there’s not a whole lot available anymore.

Any time I was out of state and visiting a gun shop I’d ask if I could buy using my C&R license and not once did the shop have any idea what I was talking about. This happened at least half a dozen times.

[Adam Helmer]

I had one for a couple of years and bought a couple of eligible guns from aimsurplus and classicfirearms but there’s not a whole lot available anymore.

Any time I was out of state and visiting a gun shop I’d ask if I could buy using my C&R license and not once did the shop have any idea what I was talking about. This happened at least half a dozen times.

reddog,

I concur with your analysis. Why do we "Need" BATFE to license a citizen's Second Amendment rights we had before the Gun Control Act of 1968? How many criminals seek to obtain a C&R license? When will the gun controllers STOP licensing Honest Citizens?

Adam

[Photog]

Depending on your state, the C&R has some pretty weird rules and benefits. In AZ, I can buy private party ANYTHING anytime, but if its 50 years old I have to log it as I have an 03 FFL. When I sell it, I have to log it if it was originally logged, but If I held a 48 year old gun for 3 years, no log out is necessary. I have had a few rifles and pistols shipped right to the house, as they were 50+ years old, do the math as guns seldom wear out, more are available every year.

The 03 FFL was a concession during the GCA68 debates, because think of it at the time, 50 years old meant pre-war bolt actions and levers. Now it means SP1's and nice 60's era auto loading pistols.

[Photog]

Also, if you let your 03FFL lapse, the records do NOT need to be kept. Any gun that is not in your logbook may have been acquired during the lapse, or disposed during the lapse, and would not be logged. There is no financial benefit to continuous license, but there are great benefits to a 3 month lapse every 3 years.

[sixgunner452]

Gentlemen, I rec'd my 03 FFL in about 60 days. Do any of you out there have a list of Vendors that give discounts to C&R holders. Thanks, Randy.


Also, if you let your 03FFL lapse, the records do NOT need to be kept. Any gun that is not in your logbook may have been acquired during the lapse, or disposed during the lapse, and would not be logged. There is no financial benefit to continuous license, but there are great benefits to a 3 month lapse every 3 years.

[mikwat]

No list,

But Numrich and Midway do (or did as of six months ago)

[sixgunner452]

mikwat , thank you for the reply. It seems there are not nearly as many that take 03 FFL as there use to be. Randy.

[alamogunr]

I had the discount from Graf's and Brownells. I found that you had to buy a minimum $$ amount to outweigh the standard shipping. I don't buy that much from either so I went back to standard customer status.