New Norma Brass, Anneal before working?

[richbug]

I am going to neck up some New Norma 8x57r brass to 10mm for a project I have been working on. Thoughts on re annealing it before trying to stretch the necks? Plan is to take it to .35 first, then 10mm. Making a long tapered mandrel on the lathe to do the work that fits into a Lee die body.

This brass doesn't grow on trees, so I would hate to lose any.

[Texas by God]

I would definitely anneal it first. A 10x57mm sounds neat.

[country gent]

it can be a crap shoot on annealing. necking up isnt as bad as down but..... I have had some new 30-30 that needed annealing before expanding for 357 herrets while the next batch was fine with out. I have seen this with other calibers also necking up. I normally have more issues when moving the shoulder back or changing the angle than expanding up.
Try a couple lube the necks good with a good lube, here my preference is imperial sizing die wax. Glue a appropriate nylon brush or cotton bore swab in a small file handle and use this to lube the necks.
Making your own expander is a plus. cut the taper as straight and true as possible cut the to size portion a couple thou over sized and polish in bright. REmeber to allow for spring back in the brass

[biffj]

Have done a lot of 6mmBR necked up to 338 and annealing prior to expanding was a bad idea. In about 50-60% of the cases the neck was turned inside out and pushed into the case. Without annealing 100% of the cases necked up fine in one shot. We normally do it in 2 stages because it makes the necks more consistent in thickness but even in two stages we had necks pushed into the case when we annealed. If you're using new brass its already been annealed so give it a shot as-is to start and see how it goes.

Good luck

Frank

[GregLaROCHE]

Not worth taking a chance. Anneal. Starline even recommends annealing some of their new brass.

[Eddie Southgate]

I'm thinking Norma brass already has annealed necks .

[Eddie2002]

I wouldn't anneal new Norma brass. I have a lot of 7.7 Jap brass made by Norma and it seems to be softer than other brands.I annealed a box and had to go under size for the expander ball to keep the neck tension right.

[samari46]

I have a bunch of old and new 7.65x43mm Argy brass. The majority has only been fired once but it sat in my stash for years. Yes annealing is on my schedule. Frank

[fguffey]

I normally have more issues when moving the shoulder back or changing the angle than expanding up.

Normally I insist it is impossible to move the shoulder back; someone has convinced the reloading world moving the shoulder back does not require thinking, all a reloader has to say "I move the shoulder back" and it is done.

It is much easier to run me off than it is to convenes me it is possible to move the shoulder back.

F. Guffey

Neck up and or down sounds like it goes with the neck getting thinner and or thicker. and I wonder why the neck never gets longer and or shorter. It is possible someone with a lot of influence will suggest it could be both.

[EDG]

What do you call what happens to case shoulders when you make .250 Savage cases from .30-06 brass?
I have a set of RCBS dies that do exactly that.



Normally I insist it is impossible to move the shoulder back; someone has convinced the reloading world moving the shoulder back does not require thinking, all a reloader has to say "I move the shoulder back" and it is done.

It is much easier to run me off than it is to convenes me it is possible to move the shoulder back.

F. Guffey

Neck up and or down sounds like it goes with the neck getting thinner and or thicker. and I wonder why the neck never gets longer and or shorter. It is possible someone with a lot of influence will suggest it could be both.

[fguffey]

What do you call what happens to case shoulders when you make .250 Savage cases from .30-06 brass?
I have a set of RCBS dies that do exactly that.

In the old days the Greek had a word for same; it was called 'iso'. If you could imagine two Greek guys passing each other on the street; one asked the other "what's up?", the other responds with "iso, iso". Today the response is 'same-o. same-o'.

The answer to your questions?; nothing changed, when forming it is impossible to move the shoulder back. The reloaders believes he finishes with the same shoulder he started with. It is possible to shorten a case from the shoulder to the case head; it is not possible to move the shoulder back.

When forming 250 Savage from 30/06 cases the 250 savage shoulder is formed from the 30/06 case body and part of the neck is formed from the 30/06 shoulder, meaning; the shoulder of the 30/06 case did not move back, it moved forward.

If it was possible to move the shoulder back the case between the case body/shoulder juncture and case head would have to compress. That can not happen because the sizing die and forming die has case body support, that leaves the shoulder no choice but to move forward.

Without case body support the case body has no choice but to bulge and of form folds and or bellows at the case body/shoulder juncture. Reloaders experience this problem when using too much seating and crimping. The seating die does not have case body support; but, if a reloader could increase case body support while seating he could increase bullet hold. And that would create a conundrum.

F. Guffey

[HangFireW8]

When necking up to a larger caliber, the case shoulder has to be strong enough not to buckle and collapse as you force the expanding ball down through it. I ruined several annealed 257 RAI cases this way, the shoulder was too soft after a deep annealing process, and they buckled.

I would suggest 2 things. Anneal after the first or second expansion, and do it mildly. That is, no need to get it red hot. Just hot enough to see some colors start changing, then dunk it.

Second thing, do the whole process one case at a time until you perfect it. Then do the rest as a batch. That way you don't get stuck with all of your cases in a bad state.

[swheeler]

I would anneal the formed brass but not before and would include a .375 step between 35 and 40 cal. Butter soft annealed 06 to Whelen will collapse the shoulder, you will too.

[country gent]

As was stated above the original shoulder is where it was the new shoulder is formed from the body if the case. The original shoulder is used to form the new neck. Cases being sized down in neck dia and body dia do grow in length slightly but the thickening is the shortest trip for the moving brass to make.

When sizing 45-70 down to 40-65 the tapered case grows in length around .040-.050, but the neck wall thickness also grows slightly.

When doing this forming consider that there is a set amount of brass in the case and it has to go somewhere when forming down or up. This is what makes forming truly concentric brass hard.

A case walls are not the same base to case mouth. They taper in thickness, at the radius from the case head they may be as much as .020 thick and thin to the mouth thickness of .010-.012. Do to this a new formed down case formed down usually has slightly less capacity. This isnt the big issue that the neck is since thickened necks may keep rounds from chambering. Slightly thicker shoulders and bodies may take a little more to fire form out and size just a little harder. Annealing after forming helps here a lot.

[EDG]

In my practical and pragmatic world the shoulder gets pushed back.
In the old days the Greeks did not reload so they are completely irrelevant to this discussion.
The shoulder is a geometric feature and moves back just as surely as waves move in water.
I suppose in your world the flat spot on a tire cannot move either....




In the old days the Greek had a word for same; it was called 'iso'. If you could imagine two Greek guys passing each other on the street; one asked the other "what's up?", the other responds with "iso, iso". Today the response is 'same-o. same-o'.

The answer to your questions?; nothing changed, when forming it is impossible to move the shoulder back. The reloaders believes he finishes with the same shoulder he started with. It is possible to shorten a case from the shoulder to the case head; it is not possible to move the shoulder back.

When forming 250 Savage from 30/06 cases the 250 savage shoulder is formed from the 30/06 case body and part of the neck is formed from the 30/06 shoulder, meaning; the shoulder of the 30/06 case did not move back, it moved forward.

If it was possible to move the shoulder back the case between the case body/shoulder juncture and case head would have to compress. That can not happen because the sizing die and forming die has case body support, that leaves the shoulder no choice but to move forward.

Without case body support the case body has no choice but to bulge and of form folds and or bellows at the case body/shoulder juncture. Reloaders experience this problem when using too much seating and crimping. The seating die does not have case body support; but, if a reloader could increase case body support while seating he could increase bullet hold. And that would create a conundrum.

F. Guffey

[fguffey]

The shoulder is a geometric feature and moves back just as surely as waves move in water.


In the old days the Greeks did not reload so they are completely irrelevant to this discussion.

The shoulder of the case must move forward through the die; if it does not the case must bulge or fold, If a reloader could get real good while moving the shoulder back he could make the case take on the appearance of a Volkswagen thermostat, or an accordion.

F. Guffey

It is impossible to move the shoulder back with a die that has case body support. It is possible to prove it is impossible to move the shoulder back with a die that has case body support but; it is impossible to get a reloader to think about it or take their hands off of the key board. And then there are those than can not acknowledge they were wrong, I have never been able to get a reloader to scribe a line at the case body/shoulder juncture. If it was possible to move the shoulder back the shoulder/case body juncture would bulge, if the sizing die did not have case body support the case would develop bellows like an accordion below the scribed line.

It is beyond the ability to imagine the shoulder moving forward, if someone scribed a line at the shoulder/case body juncture they would notice the scribed line becomes an artifact. Reloaders have tension but they do not have artifacts (back to the Greek); when I form cases with forming dies I created artifacts, I have never had an artifact move back, they always move forward.

F. Guffey

[M-Tecs]

it is impossible to get a reloader to think about it or take their hands off of the key board. And then there are those than can not acknowledge they were wrong,

Too see an example a mirror may be helpful.

The shoulder on a rifle case is nothing more than the area that establishes headspace on rimless and non belted case. If you take a 30-06 case a size it in a 308 die the shoulder is reestablished at a different location and the old shoulder is converted into a neck.

https://bisonballistics.com/articles/an-introduction-to-rifle-cases

Shoulder: The case shoulder is the area that controls the cartridge's headspace. Headspace is the measurement from the base to a datum line (measurement reference) on the case, usually specified as a point on the shoulder at which the case is a certain diameter (which is specified by the cartridge designer).

[fguffey]

If you take a 30-06 case a size it in a 308 die the shoulder is reestablished at a different location and the old shoulder is converted into a neck.

Reestablished? The shoulder you started with on the 30/06 case became part of the case body and then there is the neck; I have no ideal what is so complicated about the shoulder of the 30/06 becoming part of the case neck. And then there are those that chambered 308W rounds in a 30/06 chamber; when the trigger was pulled the neck 'almost' disappeared. And then it became more complicated because no-one knew how the case headspace.

So the shoulder a reloaders finishes with is not the same shoulder he started with.

Again, I chambered an 8mm57 round in one of my 8mm06 rifles. Forget head space, the datum on the 8mm06 is .127" longer than the distance from the datum to the case head on an 8mm57. When fired the shoulder of the 8mm57 became part of the shoulder on the 8mm06 case and the neck almost disappeared. The shoulder I started with is not the same shoulder I finished with; the shoulder of the 8MM57 did move, the old shoulder became an artifact.

F. Guffey

[fguffey]

Shoulder: The case shoulder is the area that controls the cartridge's headspace. Headspace is the measurement from the base to a datum line (measurement reference) on the case, usually specified as a point on the shoulder at which the case is a certain diameter (which is specified by the cartridge designer).

If I had to guess I would guess someone made that up:

The case has a shoulder, somewhere on the shoulder is a datum. In the old days when reloaders did not have a clue the datum was called a line, and then there was the arrow that pointed at the line with the explanation; datum line.

You will not believe how long it took to convince reloaders and smiths the datum was a round hole/circle. And then it was explained the round hole/circle for the 30/06 was 3/8" or .375:". Rather than to get someone to think about it reloaders claimed the datum was located halfway between the shoulder/neck juncture and the case body/shoulder juncture. And I wondered how could that be if the datum was the same for the 30/06, 270 and 25/06.
F. Guffey

[fguffey]

What do you call what happens to case shoulders when you make .250 Savage cases from .30-06 brass?
I have a set of RCBS dies that do exactly that.

No you do not; You have a forming die that you know nothing about or you know nothing about case forming.

Again, the shoulder you start with is not the same shoulder you finish with. The shoulder of the 250 Savage was formed from the 30/06 case body, part of the 30/06 shoulder became part of the 250 Savage case neck.

Again; it is impossible to move the case shoulder back with a die that has full case body support. It has always been like that, it is not something I made up, the rules were established long before me.

And then one day I decided I would move the shoulder back, the only way I could move a shoulder back was to collapse the case below the shoulder; when I finished the cases took on the appearance of an accordion or Volkswagen thermostat.

F. Guffey

[M-Tecs]

In the old days when reloaders did not have a clue the datum was called a line, and then there was the arrow that pointed at the line with the explanation; datum line.

You will not believe how long it took to convince reloaders and smiths the datum was a round hole/circle.

I have gunsmithing and reloading books that date back to the 1920's. Headspace was clearly understood and defined back then. It was understood by most well before then but standardization issues is what brought about the Society of American Manufacturers of Small Arms and Ammunition (SAMSAA) in 1913. In the 1920's SAAMI took over in fulfilling this roll. https://saami.org/about-saami/history/

No convincing needed for gunsmiths or reloaders. They just looked at the specs.


If I had to guess I would guess someone made that up:



On that you are correct. Yes, someone just made that up. That would be the designer of the cartridge.

You also need to look up the definition of what an artifact is. When you push a shoulder back the old shoulder is not an artifact. The old shoulder simply no longer exists.

If I thought you were actually serious I would be willing to continue this discussion but statements like this


The reloaders believes he finishes with the same shoulder he started with.


indicates this is nothing more than trolling. It's applies in your mind only. Must be nice to know what millions of reloaders are thinking.

Your premise is easily disproved since for as long as people have been pushing shoulders back these same people have been stating the need to neck ream or turn due to the increased wall thickness of the newly formed shoulder when you push shoulders back.

[fguffey]

You also need to look up the definition of what an artifact is. When you push a shoulder back the old shoulder is not an artifact. The old should simply no longer exists.

I have never said this to anyone before but I believe this would be a good place to stop digging.

If you have the old books where were you when reloaders decaled the datum was a line and then they finished with that old saying "and that is how they do it"?.

Where were you when reloaders declared the case has head space? Where did you think all of this was headed and no one said anything when Willis declared he invented a digital head space gage. And I am the only one that laughed when he claimed he invented the three legged milk stool.

F. Guffey

[fguffey]

Your premise is easily disproved since for as long as people have been pushing shoulders back these same people have been stating the need to neck ream or turn due to the increased wall thickness of the newly formed shoulder when you push shoulders back.

I always suggest the reloader think about it. What is so difficult to understand when forming/ sizing a case the new neck is formed from the shoulder and the new shoulder is formed from the case body, the shoulder does not move back.

Again I suggest you think about it, I have suggested reloaders scribe the shoulder/case body juncture.

think about it: it is not my intension to overload you; I have formed cases, when finished I had the makings of a donut and two junctures from the old shoulder and neck. I did not invent them, I am not the first person to identify the artifacts. BUT I am the one that can not get reloaders to take their hands off the key board, think or get them to take their hands out of their pockets.

F. Guffey

[fguffey]

I have gunsmithing and reloading books that date back to the 1920's.

Good, I have a few old books; all of my old books like Starret and Machinist hand books use the word gage for a gage.

F. Guffey

[EDG]

From Merriam Webster

The earliest evidence we have for the noun gauge goes back to the 15th century, when English spelling was not yet standardized, and the word in question was spelled gauge and gage with roughly equal frequency. Gauge began to be preferred in the late 19th century for most general uses. Some claim that gage appears as a variant more frequently in the U.S., though our evidence shows that the vast majority of uses for gage are from specialized and technical industries, such as mechanical engineering, manufacturing, and electronics, and that these uses of gage are global, not limited to the U.S. Nonetheless, total use of the word gage is small when compared to the total use of the word gauge.

The verb gauge, which refers to measuring or estimating, also has a variant gage. This variant appears to show up primarily in informal sources, though not often. Gauge is by far the preferred spelling in general usage for both the noun and the verb; we encourage you use it.





Good, I have a few old books; all of my old books like Starret and Machinist hand books use the word gage for a gage.

F. Guffey

[fguffey]

The verb gauge, which refers to measuring or estimating, also has a variant gage. This variant appears to show up primarily in informal sources, though not often. Gauge is by far the preferred spelling in general usage for both the noun and the verb; we encourage you use it.

I have a book by Starrett, back in 1920 Starrett named the book The Starrett Data Book for Machinest. Every opportunity Starrett had to use the word ‘gage’ they spelled it ‘gage’. Before that Starrett printed a catalog complete with illustrations, all of the illustrations were of gages. Starrett printed The Starrett book for Machinest in 1941; every oppertunity Starrett had to illustrate a tool they referred to the tool as a gage.

One day there was a discussion about ‘the correct spelling’ so I dug out a few books including 4 copies of a machinest hand books and the Starrett books; no where in all of those thousandths of page was a gage spelled any other way than ‘gage’.

And then L Willis labels a dial indicator stand as being a digital head space gage and no one knows what a dial indicator stands looks like. And then there is the case, I do not have a case that has head space.

I do not know how many years it took the reloading world to catch on/understand the Sinclair/Hornadsy gage is a comparator.

F. Guffey

[fguffey]

You also need to look up the definition of what an artifact is. When you push a shoulder back the old shoulder is not an artifact. The old shoulder simply no longer exists.

The old shoulder moves forward meaning the new shoulder is formed from the case body and the shoulder becomes part of the new neck.

I am beginning to believe you have never formed a case before. I have 16 forming dies. I do not have a forming die or full length sizing die that will move the shoulder back; because both dies have case body support. One more time, without case body support the case will bulge just below the shoulder because! the shoulder is moving back. And again when you get real good at moving the shoulder back you can created a case that takes on the appearance of an accordion.

Any reloader that learns how to scribe a case at the shoulder/case body juncture can watch the scribed line move forward as the case is formed and or sized. To prove the shoulder does not move back observe the scribed line.

The new shoulder is formed from the case body, think about it; the case body is below the scribed line/case body/shoulder juncture.

F. Guffey

[EDG]

I believe the 15th century predates any machinist handbook you can cite.



I have a book by Starrett, back in 1920 Starrett named the book The Starrett Data Book for Machinest. Every opportunity Starrett had to use the word ‘gage’ they spelled it ‘gage’. Before that Starrett printed a catalog complete with illustrations, all of the illustrations were of gages. Starrett printed The Starrett book for Machinest in 1941; every oppertunity Starrett had to illustrate a tool they referred to the tool as a gage.

One day there was a discussion about ‘the correct spelling’ so I dug out a few books including 4 copies of a machinest hand books and the Starrett books; no where in all of those thousandths of page was a gage spelled any other way than ‘gage’.

And then L Willis labels a dial indicator stand as being a digital head space gage and no one knows what a dial indicator stands looks like. And then there is the case, I do not have a case that has head space.

I do not know how many years it took the reloading world to catch on/understand the Sinclair/Hornadsy gage is a comparator.

F. Guffey

[EDG]

Is that what happens to waves in the ocean?


The old shoulder moves forward meaning the new shoulder is formed from the case body and the shoulder becomes part of the new neck.

I am beginning to believe you have never formed a case before. I have 16 forming dies. I do not have a forming die or full length sizing die that will move the shoulder back; because both dies have case body support. One more time, without case body support the case will bulge just below the shoulder because! the shoulder is moving back. And again when you get real good at moving the shoulder back you can created a case that takes on the appearance of an accordion.

Any reloader that learns how to scribe a case at the shoulder/case body juncture can watch the scribed line move forward as the case is formed and or sized. To prove the shoulder does not move back observe the scribed line.

The new shoulder is formed from the case body, think about it; the case body is below the scribed line/case body/shoulder juncture.

F. Guffey

[M-Tecs]

EDG no point in feeding the troll.

[fguffey]

The new shoulder is formed from the case body, think about it; the case body is below the scribed line/case body/shoulder juncture.


EDG no point in feeding the troll.

If you do not know and or understand it should be easy for you to say you do not know and or understand.

I said it is impossible to move the shoulder back (with a die that has case body support); all reloaders disagree. They do not know what happens to the case when sized, they do not know what happens to the case when fired.

No one has taken the time to scribe the case body/shoulder juncture of a case before forming/sizing (with one exception). I dug out a plastic container of 20 35 Whelen cases that were formed from LC 43 30/.06 cases. The cases have not been fired after forming. The shoulder/neck juncture of the 30/06 case remains as an artifact. The cases have never been trimmed; The case length from the end of the neck to the case head is from .030" to .040" shorter than the 30/06 case from the end of the neck to the case head.

None of this bothers me except for the short cases, I want to cover the chamber with the case, I do not want to expose any part of the chamber with a flame front.

Not being helpless I prefer to use 280 Remington cases when forming 35 Whelen cases. The 280 Remington case is .041" longer than the 30/06 case from the end of the neck to the case head. The longer 280 case allows me to off set the effect of forming a 30/06 case to a 35 Whelen. There are other advantages but we will never get to the point we can discuss 'HOW' because it is impossible to move the shoulder back because moving the shoulder back would shorten the case from the case body/shoulder juncture to the case head.

F. Guffey

[EDG]

Guffy,
Yes you have a knack for confusing semantics that little application in reloading discussions. You forgot the topic not forming 35 Whelen brass. The topic is pushing shoulders back.
Cases do have shoulders.
I think you would agree to that.
When you make a new case from an old case the new case also has a shoulder.
So how did you get your new shoulder? Where did the new shoulder come from?
Did it just appear from thin air? No the shoulder position was moved by using a reloading die.
If you began with basic brass then you began with - (gasp) no shoulder.
So how do you get a shoulder on basic brass?
You form it.
When you begin forming the shoulder on basic brass it is initially at the mouth of the case neck.
Then what do you do to move the shoulder position down to the desire location?
Since you cannot move shoulders apparently you cannot reload ammo.
The rest of us do not have that issue and we are able to converse with the rest of the reloading world without attempting to confuse people.




If you do not know and or understand it should be easy for you to say you do not know and or understand.

I said it is impossible to move the shoulder back (with a die that has case body support); all reloaders disagree. They do not know what happens to the case when sized, they do not know what happens to the case when fired.

No one has taken the time to scribe the case body/shoulder juncture of a case before forming/sizing (with one exception). I dug out a plastic container of 20 35 Whelen cases that were formed from LC 43 30/.06 cases. The cases have not been fired after forming. The shoulder/neck juncture of the 30/06 case remains as an artifact. The cases have never been trimmed; The case length from the end of the neck to the case head is from .030" to .040" shorter than the 30/06 case from the end of the neck to the case head.

None of this bothers me except for the short cases, I want to cover the chamber with the case, I do not want to expose any part of the chamber with a flame front.

Not being helpless I prefer to use 280 Remington cases when forming 35 Whelen cases. The 280 Remington case is .041" longer than the 30/06 case from the end of the neck to the case head. The longer 280 case allows me to off set the effect of forming a 30/06 case to a 35 Whelen. There are other advantages but we will never get to the point we can discuss 'HOW' because it is impossible to move the shoulder back because moving the shoulder back would shorten the case from the case body/shoulder juncture to the case head.

F. Guffey

[fguffey]

=EDG;4844555]Guffy,
Yes you have a knack for confusing semantics that little application in reloading discussions. You forgot the topic not forming 35 Whelen brass. The topic is pushing shoulders back.
Cases do have shoulders.
I think you would agree to that.


The shoulder on a case does not lock me up and of drive me to the curb. The one thing I can not do with a shoulder is push it back with a die that case body support. I understand the shoulder I finish with is not the shoulder I started with; If the shoulder moves it moves forward. When it moves forward the new shoulder is formed from the case body, And now? I am convinced reloading is mind boggling for thing for most. Reloading is mind boggling because reloaders refuse to remove their hands from the key board.

I understand it sounds cool to say “I bump’ or “I move the shoulder back’, it can not be made any simpler; It is impossible to move the shoulder back and then there is ‘bump’, bump is a function of the press. I understand on the Internet it sounds like reloaders understand what is happening when the case is sized or formed. Reloading forums should not be socially dysfunctional.

One day I went to a Manufacturer/distruster of reloading components and equipment; I wanted to purchase some equipment, it was about that time the technical person in charge started telling me everything he knew about sizing and forming cases. It was about that time I suggested he had never formed cases by using the procedures he described. And he said “no”. Had he said ‘yes” I was going to ask him to show me?

When I got home I did not fire up the computer, instead I sorted through 14 sets of forming dies, I measure and found one die that was too short, I measured the difference in length between the two cases and then adjusted the short forming die off the shell holder and then started forming cases for the 7.65 B.M.

I used 30/06 cases when forming the 7.65 B.M cases, It was like magic, the new shoulder was formed from the case body, Part of the neck was formed from the shoulder of the 30/06, That just can not happen if the shoulder of the case is ‘pushed back.

I can shorten the distance from the datum/shoulder to the case head, it is impossible to move the shoulder back when shortening the distance.

And then there is increasing the distance from the datum to the case head. I went to a firing range looking for cases that were long from the datum to the case head; all I had in the way of case measuring equipment was home made stuff. The ranges officers provided space and a table, and fired range pick up cases, 7 cents each or $7.00 for 110 cases.

Move the shoulder back on those cases? NO, I use those cases to off set the length of the chamber from the datum/shoulder to the bolt face. I am the fan of cutting down on all that case travel and that is another mind braking thing, not all of my cases travel.

F. Guffey





When you make a new case from an old case the new case also has a shoulder.
So how did you get your new shoulder? Where did the new shoulder come from?
Did it just appear from thin air? No the shoulder position was moved by using a reloading die.
If you began with basic brass then you began with - (gasp) no shoulder.
So how do you get a shoulder on basic brass?
You form it.
When you begin forming the shoulder on basic brass it is initially at the mouth of the case neck.
Then what do you do to move the shoulder position down to the desire location?
Since you cannot move shoulders apparently you cannot reload ammo.
The rest of us do not have that issue and we are able to converse with the rest of the reloading world without attempting to confuse people.



One more time, the shoulder the reloadeer starts with is not the same shoulder he finishes with. But if it is the reloader must consider he is neck sizing the case. I have neck sizing dies and I can neck size with a full length sizing die that has full case body support.

[Elkins45]

In the ocean the wave moves but the water does not. In a reformed case the shoulder moves but the brass does not. The new shoulder is made from different brass than the old shoulder was.

I fail to see how this makes any practical difference. "Moving the shoulder back" is an understandable phrase even if it's not semantically correct. It just means "establishing a new shoulder lower on the case body."

[fguffey]

In the ocean the wave moves but the water does not. In a reformed case the shoulder moves but the brass does not.

I should say something like "tell me you are kidding" or "someone please tell me Elkins45 is kidding" etc. but I believe he actually believe he knows what he is talking about. I have formed 100 cases using 30/06 cases; after forming I had to trim 35" of brass from the cases after forming. I had no ideal reloading was so mind boggling to the reloader. When forming the cases the case the shoulder became part of the neck and the new shoulder was formed from the case body.

If the brass does not move the case does not get lighter in weight when trimming. Bart B. claimed he fired a 308 W case 43 times with heavy loads and during all of this punishment the case suffered no serious after effects' and reloaders oohed and awed. All I wanted to know was the weight of the case when he started and the weight when he finished.

I was at a gun show when a proud owner of a new custom riffle accused the builder of the rifle he screwed up when he cut the chamber. Setting behind a table without any tools makes it difficult to give the proud owner an answer. So It was suggested he bring the rifle to his shop during. And then the proud owner got to me. I asked him if he would allow me to see the case that indicated a head space problem. He handed me the case and I asked; is this the only case you have, are you loading it and firing it over and over and over etc. etc. again and again. And then I offered to form him 250 cases for his rifle. The builder of the rifle walked down to see the case again. It was about that time the builder suggested the owner take the case to a non-bias party for another opinion. The old non-bias smith pulled the case apart and measure the thickens of the case wall. The case wall thickness was .002", it was about that time the non-bias smith told him .002" to .003" is a good thickness for paper but it is not a good thickness for cases. And then it was about that time the non-biased individual asked him if that was the only case he had. The proud owner did not take me up on my offer to form cases for his rifle. Now, if that brass did not move where did it go? And none of it moved back. If the proud owner had claimed he fired that case 43 times I would have believed him.

F. Guffey