38 Special-+P

[LouP]

I've loaded many 38 Special in my time and never a 38-+P. I only have 38 Special Brass. Is there any reason I can't load 38-+P in that Brass?:?:

[USSR]

Lou,

From the point of the brass alone, no problem.

Don

[tazman]

The only real difference between 38 special and 38 special +P brass is the headstamp. Go ahead and load them and don't worry.

[Petrol & Powder]

Ditto

And by the way, the difference between standard pressure and +P isn't that great; 17K psi verses 20K psi.

[LouP]

USSR, Tazman, Petrol and Powder,
Thank you for your come back.
I could not find any answers to this in all the Loading Manuals I have.

[rancher1913]

you may want to mark them somehow so that if somebody else grabs them they will know not to use them in a regular 38.

[Outpost75]

you may want to mark them somehow so that if somebody else grabs them they will know not to use them in a regular 38.

I try to segregate +P headstamp brass for that purpose, but otherwise that is what reload data labels are for. If I load +P loads in standard brass I also mark the case heads with a red felt tip marker as a reminder, because I have several Airweight S&W Model 12 revolvers which I don't want to abuse with ammo, which I assemble to use in the N-frame .38-44 Heavy Duty or my Ruger Six Series guns which are hell for strong.

[Petrol & Powder]

Most of my +P 38 Special casings happen to be nickel plated so I use those nickel plated cases for +P loads. The regular brass casings, which I have far more of, are used for standard loads. This makes ID easy.

[Hickory]

In 1935 S&W developed the 357 magnum.
People are not without a more powerful alternative option to the 38 special.
Keep the 38 special, special.

[6bg6ga]

In 1935 S&W developed the 357 magnum.
People are not without a more powerful alternative option to the 38 special.
Keep the 38 special, special.

The 38 special is a unique piece of history that shouldn't be polluted with the +P loading. Want extra oomph then go buy a 357.

[Hickory]

Yes, the 38 special will not only poke holes in paper but, can and will stop bad actors as well!
My little S&W model 60-15 in 357 is a handy thing to have around, anytime you need it.
My model 14-2 shoots light loads with paper-punching ease. A 357 is for heavy work!

[FergusonTO35]

If you are willing to do some experimentation you will find there is alot of overlap between standard pressure and +P in this cartridge. It is entirely possible to get higher than +P velocity with a standard pressure load using published data. Case in point: 5.8 grains of Accurate no. 5 under any 150-158 grain SWC gets better than 900 fps out of my S&W 10-5 with 4" barrel. According to Accurate, this is a standard pressure load of 16,100 psi.

[Petrol & Powder]

There just isn't that big of a spread between 38 Special (17,000 psi max) and 38 Special +P (20,000 psi max).
Now, when we add 357 Magnum (35,000 psi), the differences are huge.
While I want to keep +P cartridges out of guns that are not suited for +P, I don't lose a lot of sleep over the issue.

Like Outpost75, I have some S&W model 12 revolvers (aluminum alloy frame) and I don't want to beat those guns up. I keep +P cartridges away from those guns. I also keep +P rounds away from my K-38.
The vast majority of my 38 Special shooting is with standard pressure loads and with guns that are more than strong enough to handle +P loads.
I try to avoid beating up good guns but if the occasional +P cartridge lands in one of my model 10's, it's not going to be dangerous.

People act like the difference between standard pressure 38 Special and +P is like the difference between a 2 lb carpenter's hammer and a 10 pound sledge hammer. It's more like the difference between a 2 pound hammer and a 3 pound hammer.

357 magnum cartridges are a totally different ballgame.

[LouP]

I thank you all for the information that you have given me.
I have a Ruger GP 100 357 Magnum. I was just loading some 38 Special to use in it, and wondered about 38 Special+P.
Again thank you all.

[M-Tecs]

The 38 special is a unique piece of history that shouldn't be polluted with the +P loading. Want extra oomph then go buy a 357.

The .38/44 Heavy Duty and the adjustable sighted version, the .38/44 Outdoorsman are also part of the 38 special history. If higher pressure 38 Special loads are pollution than blame S&W starting in 1926 for the .38 Special High Velocity than later the 38/44.

https://americanhandgunner.com/gear/38-special/

[Outpost75]

The .38/44 Heavy Duty and the adjustable sighted version, the .38/44 Outdoorsman are also part of the 38 special history. If higher pressure 38 Special loads are pollution than blame S&W starting in 1926 for the .38 Special High Velocity than later the 38/44.

https://americanhandgunner.com/gear/38-special/

By the late 1920s, US law enforcement wanted revolver ammunition producing better “stopping power” which could also defeat metal automobile bodies. The Super-X and Remington High Velocity 158-grain LRN loads introduced in 1930 gave 1125 fps from a 6-inch solid industrial test barrel. S&W introduced the .38/44 Heavy Duty, built on the heat-treated .44 Hand Ejector frame in 1930, with 5-inch barrel and fixed sights. A 4-inch version followed in 1935.

254586254587254590

The .38-44 High Velocity loads were intended only for the Colt New Service, Official Police and S&W Heavy Duty (N-frame) revolvers. Both lead round-nose and “metal capped” versions were offered. Advertising of the gangster era indicated that the .38-44 Super-X cartridge could penetrate eleven 7/8inch thick pine boards or just as easily perforate a metal auto trunk lid, seats, dashboard and firewall clear into the engine compartment.

S&W Heavy-Duty production totaled 11,111 before being halted for WWII. After WWII, S&W began shipping .38/44 Heavy Duty revolvers again in the summer of 1946. Postwar S&W serial numbers are prefixed by the letter S. There were over 8,700 transition models manufactured between 1946-1950. The 38/44 Heavy Duty Model of 1950 was also in great demand during the Korean conflict, because the Super-X and Remington Highway Master Metal Penetrating ammunitions were said to defeat Chinese body armor, which stopped .45 ACP hardball.

In 1957, the "Heavy Duty" fixed sight .38 Special was designated the S&W Model 20, while the adjustable-sighted .38 Special "Outdoorsman" became the Model 23. Production of the S&W .38-44 Heavy Duty Model 20 continued into the early 1960s. The last known Model 20s (no dash) were shipped in 1963. The last known Model 20-marked guns, were Model 20-2s shipped in late 1964 to the Austin, TX Police Department. In 1966, the Model 20 was finally dropped from the S&W catalog.

From 1946-1966, a total of 20,604 S&W Heavy Duty revolvers were manufactured. Compared to other S&W models the .38-44 Heavy Duty is scarce and is eagerly sought out by both collectors and serious shooters.

[Petrol & Powder]

The origins of the 38 Special +P SAAMI rating is well known. The 38/44 history is part of that history and I commend Outpost75 for his excellent summary regarding N-frame 38 Special revolvers and the loads suitable for those guns.

I believe the +P rating is still largely misunderstood. While its origins are fairly well known, its parameters seem to remain shrouded in mystery. Standard pressure 38 Special maxes out at 17,000 psi. Those loads encompass a large portion of 38 Special ammunition.
38 Special +P maxes out at 20,000 psi, which is greater than standard pressure loads..... but not grossly greater. For some reason (possibly historical), many people seem to equate +P 38 Special to nearly 357 magnum pressures, despite the fact that 38 +P is rated at 15,000 lower psi than 357 magnum. I'm not sure why people have such an exaggerated view of the 38 Special +P.

[Outpost75]

The high velocity .38 Special loads produced by Remington, Winchester and Federal, prior to adoption of the +P headstamp in 1974, may have slightly exceeded modern +P pressure limits, as recent velocity testing of the vintage 158-grain lead loads shows slightly higher velocities than modern lead +P:

.38 Special +P vs. Vintage .38 Special (.38-44) Factory loads and modern handloads

Ammunition____________________________S&W .38-44 HD 4”

1954 Super-X 158-grain Lubaloy RN .38-44____994 fps, 23 Sd

1988 Winch. X38SPD 158-gr. LHP+P "FBI Load_909 fps, 16 Sd

“.38-44” Handloads in .38 Special brass, W-W cases, WSP primer:

Accurate 36-175H 4.0 grains Bullseye +P_____871 fps, 5 Sd
Accurate 36-175H 5.5 grains AutoComp +P___902 fps, 14 Sd
Accurate 36-175H 11.5 grains IMR4227+P___914 fps, 22 Sd

In the 1970s the Southwestern Institute of Forensic Sciences as well as the National Institute of Law Enforcement and Criminal Justice evaluated the effectiveness of incapacitation achieved by firing common .38 Special police duty ammunition. This was accomplished by comparing “energy deposit” data from test firings in ballistic gelatin tissue simulant. Both studies agreed that .38 Special revolvers firing 158 grain lead round nose at any velocity were inferior in "stopping power" to other calibers and bullet designs. As street criticism of the .38 Special cartridge increased in intensity, the majority of police departments wanted more effective .38 Special ammunition, which could be used safely in their existing revolvers.

254605254607254606

From 1963-74 Lee Jurras of Super Vel developed light-weight, jacketed hollow-point .38 Special loads capable of producing reliable expansion from standard revolvers. While Super Vel proved the basic concept, the company was bought out by its competitors in 1974. By the early 1970s Winchester-Western clearly dominated the .38 Special law enforcement ammunition market and improved the original Super Vel concepts by perfecting the modern skived jacket first used in its 110-grain jacketed HP Q4070 Treasury load. Concurrently experimental 158-grain all-lead hollow-point loads were being developed which were evaluated on the steet by St. Louis, MO, Chicago, IL and Michigan State Police. Based upon favorable reports from FBI Field Offices in those localities samples were sent to the FBI Firearms Testing Unit at Quantico, VA in 1972. The X38SPD cartridge eventually became widely known as the “FBI Load. Both of these experimental specialty ammunitions were packaged initially in plain white contract cartons, at the time not being commercially available, and were designated on their packaging “For Law Enforcement Use Only."

The great advantage of standard-weight, soft-lead, high velocity semi-wadcutters was that they would shoot to the fixed sights of most existing police revolvers, and so did not require re-zeroing. Hollow points of soft alloy, having correct cavity geometry would expand even when fired from 2-inch barrels, when loaded to the higher velocities and pressure of what later became known in 1974 as +P loads. Barrel leading and cylinder binding were recognized early-on as problems in revolvers not having a cylinder gas ring to reduce lead deposits getting into the crane arbor. S&W therefore changed the location of the gas ring from the yoke to the cylinder itself.

While improved .38 Special high-velocity loadings assembled with all-lead or serrated-jacket hollow point bullets improved street performance, it soon became apparent that .38 Special cartridges generating pressures substantially exceeding about 17,000 cup could not be fired continuously in small steel frame revolvers, such as the Colt Police Positive, S&W J-frame or any light-alloy frame revolvers, such as the S&W Airweights or the Colt Cobra or Agent, without severely curtailing the service life of the guns. This was because these lighter revolvers were never designed to withstand high-volume fire of the more powerful ammunition.

To mitigate against inadvertent use of high velocity ammunition in older service weapons which were not specifically designed for it, the Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturer’s Institute (SAAMI) adopted, in 1974, the practice of identifying higher pressure ammunition exceeding 17,000 c.u.p. with a +P head-stamp.

.38 Special: 17,000 psi (std.); 20,000 psi (+P) = 17% increase in pressure

[Petrol & Powder]

Thank You Outpost75.

And thank you for doing the math there at the end. That 3000 psi difference is only a 17% increase. As I stated earlier, +P is clearly a higher rating but it is not grossly higher.

[dg31872]

Most interesting.
Thank you Outpost 75, for sharing with us.

[rintinglen]

Like Petrol, I too generally load plus P cartridges in Nickled casings, but a more visible sign is the projectile used. A wad cutter or Round-nosed Boolit indicates standard velocity or below, while my +P loads are hollow-points, jacketed or cast. Makes it easy at a glance to tell which is which.

My Model 38 has a cylinder gap of .10 now, thanks to a heavy diet of plus p loads, back in the day when it was my only back-up/off-duty weapon. The admonition to avoid heavy loads in aluminum framed guns is well heeded.

[ACC]

In 1935 S&W developed the 357 magnum.
People are not without a more powerful alternative option to the 38 special.
Keep the 38 special, special.

I'm with you. I wish he would go read my post about what can happen if you over pressure a gun. You sir are a wise man.

ACC

[M-Tecs]

My Model 38 has a cylinder gap of .10 now, thanks to a heavy diet of plus p loads, back in the day when it was my only back-up/off-duty weapon. The admonition to avoid heavy loads in aluminum framed guns is well heeded.

.10" that is impressive. Did you mean .010"?

[M-Tecs]

I'm with you. I wish he would go read my post about what can happen if you over pressure a gun. You sir are a wise man.

ACC

I've read the post and if it actually happened it's tragic but at best is a gross misrepresentation of reality. First the claim of 357 pressure in a 38 Spec. with factory ammo?????? Not even close to reality. The 357 is 35K, the 38 Spec is 17K and the 38 Spec +P is 20K. So a firearm rated for +P is unsafe with +P????

If in fact the revolver actually had an aluminum cylinder it was a pre-37 Chief Special Airweight/Model 12 manufactured in the 50's. They were not safe when new and time has not changed that fact.

You claim the loads were Buffalo Bore +P+ yet Buffalo bore does not sell +P+ 38 Spec loads. They do sell +P.

Per your quote of the RSO "These were way too high pressure for this gun according to the RSO. He said it looked like the first two shots bulged the aluminum cylinder and the last one was too much and it came apart." Aluminum cylinder?? RSO qualifications? Apparently he got the material in the cylinder wrong so what else did he get wrong. How did the RSO know the first two shots bulged the cylinder unless that part of the cylinder remained???? If that much of the cylinder remained what did all the hand damage? Any pictures?

Through the years I have inspected 8 or 10 revolvers that have blown. I was on site for three. They all looked like this these https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=picture+of+revolver+blown+up&qpvt=picture+of+revovler+blown+up&FORM=IGRE and surprisingly no injuries or very minor injuries.

Your description of "It took the better parts of two fingers and heavily damaged the rest on her left hand and injured her right hand pretty badly." is a description of a gun that hand grenaded. Whatever the cause that type of failure was not from shooting 20K pressure ammo in a firearm that possibly was only rated for 17K pressure. The exception is if it was a pre-37 Chief Special Airweight aluminum cylinder. In that case the cylinder should have been replaced with a steel one 60 years ago.

On a side note the current S&W Airweight SS or Titanium cylinders used for the 38 Special +P are the same dimension (except for the chambering) as used in the 357 version. On the 357 they went with a Scandium frame to prevent frame stretch. Unless they are doing a different heat treat (doubtful) the current cylinders will handle 357 pressures, however, the standard aluminum frames won't. https://www.smith-wesson.com/firearms/model-360-pd My 360PD is the early version that is 38 +P only. I would like the 357 version but mine shoots prefect POI with Federal Hydra Shok 129gr +P. It also is the best shooting handgun of that size that I have ever handled.

Something isn't adding up.

Interesting read here http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-revolvers-1961-1980/79395-p-through-model-12-test-done.html

[rintinglen]

.10" that is impressive. Did you mean .010"?

Doh! Indeed .010, ten thousandths, not one tenth... my computer is packed for a move and my iPad does me no favors when trying to type.

[M-Tecs]

Doh! Indeed .010, ten thousandths, not one tenth... my computer is packed for a move and my iPad does me no favors when trying to type.

Figured it was a typo. Any idea what it measure when new? I don't know it this is correct or not but I have read that S&W considered .011" max. I do know that on my DW's when I gap less than 004" carbon build up creates cylinder drag if I shoot very much.

[Outpost75]

Figured it was a typo. Any idea what it measure when new? I don't know it this is correct or not but I have read that S&W considered .011" max. I do know that on my DW's when I gap less than 004" carbon build up creates cylinder drag if I shoot very much.

Don't know what current specs are, but when I worked in the industry in QA (1980s):

Min. build assembly before proofing pass 0.002/0.003 hold, min. acceptance after proofing pass 0.003/0.004 hold

Mean Assembly Tolerance pass 0.005/0.006 hold, measured with rear gage in place

Max. Acceptance after proofing pass 0.008/0.009 hold, measured with rear gage in place

Customer Service Maximum pass 0.009/0.010 hold, measured with rear gage in place

If you don't have Go HS gages, take the measurements with sized empty brass in every other chamber.

[M-Tecs]

Don't know what current specs are, but when I worked in the industry in QA (1980s):

Min. build assembly before proofing pass 0.002/0.003 hold, min. acceptance after proofing pass 0.003/0.004 hold

Mean Assembly Tolerance pass 0.005/0.006 hold, measured with rear gage in place

Max. Acceptance after proofing pass 0.008/0.009 hold, measured with rear gage in place

Customer Service Maximum pass 0.009/0.010 hold, measured with rear gage in place

If you don't have Go HS gages, take the measurements with sized empty brass in every other chamber.

Thanks for the actual data. Did S&W proof every gun? When they proofed one shot or did they load all the holes in the cylinder? Did they use the SAAMI proof load pressures for testing?

For those interest in the SAAMI proof specs. page 180 - 189. *note in the case of the 38 Special and the 45 ACP SAAMI lists the pressure for standard 38 Spec and 45 ACP as obsolete. They use the higher +P pressure.
https://saami.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/ANSI-SAAMI-Z299.3-CFP-and-R-Approved-2015-12-14-Posting-Copy.pdf

The 93,500 max for the 454 Casull and 460 S&W is impressive.

[jonp]

I load all types but mostly target 38sp. When I head to the top I use my Blackhawks. Lately as I have a few like my Masterpiece I wouldnt want to use higher stuff in I bought Starline Brass stamped "+P" to keep it seperate. To tell the truth there are not many loads like that but my wife loves my...errr... her Chiefs Special for berry picking so I do a few but as a rule if i want that much power I go to a 357 Mag.

Dont ask a pistol to be something its not. There are guns for that.

Want really high end 38sp? That's called a 357 Mag.
45LC that's more impressive than a uber max H110 260gr through a Blackhawk in case of rampaging Rhinos? 454 was made for that

[Outpost75]

Thanks for the actual data. Did S&W proof every gun? ...

In the 1980s S&W got caught cheating on proof by the Contracting Officers Technical Representative. It was noted that the burn stains on the cylinder face of some stainless revolvers was not the same color on all chambers, one charge hole being black and the others brown. Questioned guns were sent to the ATF bomb lab for electron microprobe analysis of the powder residues, which confirmed that the contractor was cheating on proof in violation of the contract requirements for six proof rounds. Those guns were returned to the factory for re-proofing in the presence of the government's Contracting Officers Technical Representative who flew up from FLETC.

Out of 1200 rounds fired in retesting there were 34 misfires, or 2.8% which is a Major Category defect. The misfired rounds were sent to Picatinny Arsenal for analysis. It was determined that the firing pin indents were off center more than 1/2 the diameter of the striker point, another Major Category Defect in violation of the contract requirement. These are the sort of things that can happen when people aren't paying attention, and the bean counters instead of the engineers were in charge. You will never read about this stuff in news stand gun rags who are whores to their advertisers.

You have to have “been there.”

The entire lot of S&W revolvers was rejected and the contract given to the next qualifying bidder. I was then Ruger's Quality Assurance Manager for the Newport, NH facility and yes, we used SAAMI/ANSI/CIP qualified proof loads in all six charge holes and after proofing guns were 100% Magnaflux inspected using the wet method with continuous circular magnetization. Thanks for asking. I left the company in 1988 and can't speak to practices after I left.

[jonp]

Thanks for the actual data. Did S&W proof every gun? When they proofed one shot or did they load all the holes in the cylinder? Did they use the SAAMI proof load pressures for testing?

For those interest in the SAAMI proof specs. page 180 - 189. *note in the case of the 38 Special and the 45 ACP SAAMI lists the pressure for standard 38 Spec and 45 ACP as obsolete. They use the higher +P pressure.
https://saami.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/ANSI-SAAMI-Z299.3-CFP-and-R-Approved-2015-12-14-Posting-Copy.pdf

The 93,500 max for the 454 Casull and 460 S&W is impressive.

Outpost75: That is quite interesting reading and I was looking for something like that a few weeks ago. I find it interesting that the 38sp and 45ACP are obsolete concerning proof loads and manufacturers use +P for the standard. That answers the question about if a modern firearm can stand those loads as long as they are built by someone that adheres to SAAMI standards.

Considering your background, seeing as the 45 Colt uses 22,000 psi as a max proof, just how strong are the Ruger Blackhawks? I know I'll never get close enough to blow one up but what does Ruger use as a standard? 1.5x max proof so around 33-35,000 psi?

[Petander]

CIP keeps it simple on this side of the pond:

https://i.postimg.cc/TYjrV13M/IMG-20200113-002757-325.jpg

Lots of interesting read in this thread,thank you all.

[Larry Gibson]

One additional fallacy most often believed is that all factory ammo is loaded to the SAAMI or CIP MAP/PMAP. Factory ammunition is worked up, using non-canister powder, to a certain velocity level +/- while remaining under the SAAMI or CIP standards. The actual MAP/PMAPs of rifle ammunition can be and usually are, several thousand psi below the MAP/PMAP for the cartridge. "Premium" ammunition is many times is right at or even slightly above the MAP/PMAP. Handgun cartridges are many times 2 -3 thousand psi lower than the MAP/PMAPO for the cartridges. However, some older pre-SAAMI standard handgun cartridges, can have psi higher than SAAMI MAP because they are still loaded to older factory standards (the 32 S&W and 32 S&WL are good examples).

When I pressure/velocity test factory ammunition I always pull down a cartridge in each box to weight and measure the diameter of the bullet and to determine the type (flake, extruded or ball) of powder and the weight of the charge. I have found many cartridges of the same make and product number [different boxes with different lot numbers of course] with different types and weights of powder in them. The psi was most often well below the SAAMI MAP. Many would be surprised just how large the +/- velocity allowance is for factory ammo not only as specified by SAAMI but also in actual measurement.

[Outpost75]

...Considering your background, seeing as the 45 Colt uses 22,000 psi as a max proof, just how strong are the Ruger Blackhawks? I know I'll never get close enough to blow one up but what does Ruger use as a standard? 1.5x max proof so around 33-35,000 psi?

Ruger used standard SAAMI proof loads for production in .45 Colt, but the engineering dept. when I worked for the company had Remington produce some "double-proof" loads which approximated the pressure levels used for proofing .44 Magnum (1980s, this pre-dated the Casull) and a test run of revolvers digested these with no issues.

[Wheelguns 1961]

This is a great thread! Thank you all!

[FergusonTO35]

Ruger used standard SAAMI proof loads for production in .45 Colt, but the engineering dept. when I worked for the company had Remington produce some "double-proof" loads which approximated the pressure levels used for proofing .44 Magnum (1980s, this pre-dated the Casull) and a test run of revolvers digested these with no issues.

Makes sense, given that the Blackhawk was chambered in magnum rounds from the get-go.

[tazman]

You have to know that if a manufacturer builds a gun capable of withstanding magnum pressure and only chambers it in a low pressure cartridge, somebody is going to try to make that standard pressure cartridge a magnum. People just do that kind of thing.
Ruger was smart to proof those handguns at high pressure. They knew people would push the limits.

[Todd N.]

... just how strong are the Ruger Blackhawks? I know I'll never get close enough to blow one up but what does Ruger use as a standard? 1.5x max proof so around 33-35,000 psi?


When you consider that Ruger chambers the 10mm Auto in the Blackhawk and it has a SAAMI max pressure of 37,500 PSI (259 MPa), and the .454 Casull is SAAMI spec'd somewhere 60,000 CUP (410MPa)...

Suffice it to say that Blackhawks are CRAZY strong!

[M-Tecs]

When you consider that Ruger chambers the 10mm Auto in the Blackhawk and it has a SAAMI max pressure of 37,500 PSI (259 MPa), and the .454 Casull is SAAMI spec'd somewhere 60,000 CUP (410MPa)...

Suffice it to say that Blackhawks are CRAZY strong!

Proof load for the .454 Casull is 93,500 max.

[Lloyd Smale]

yup most test there guns at twice operating pressures. Kind of the industry standard. Do people overload guns and get hurt? Sure they do but some also drive there camaro a 150mph down a 2 lane road. You cant cure stupid. Even 38s that aren't rated for plus p can be used with it. I had an old detective special. I shot a TON of plus p out of it and it eventually needed a rebuild but most colts of that era needed a rebuild with even that much standard pressure ammo. It might loosen up a gun but it isn't going to blow up a gun. Not unless the gun is defective and then again even standard pressure loads could do it. I wonder how many 45 colt ruger single actions were sold because people proved they were capable of twice the power factory ammo gave. Or if the 357 would even have been made if people didn't play with mag level loads in the 38/44s. Or the 44 mag if elmer didn't play with 44 specials and 45 colts.
Proof load for the .454 Casull is 93,500 max.

[Petander]

Yes,it's not like there's an on/off treshold for a kaboom right after a certain working pressure.

Quick Load can show interesting things though. A deep seated wadcutter doesn't need much extra powder to rise pressures a lot.

This is what I usually shoot in Mod 14, around 18k psi.

https://i.postimg.cc/fRLSQ8fw/IMG-20200119-232315.jpg.

Adding 0.03 grains takes the pressure above 23k,only a fraction over CIP but then there's no margin for powder dispenser /OAL variations that can and do happen with progressive loaders.

A one grain change from 4.0 to 5.0 grains takes 21.3k (ok CIP) pressure to 33.7k psi.

https://i.postimg.cc/qvkgXj5s/IMG-20200120-173205.jpg

[USSR]

Yep, with the deep seated wadcutters it don't take much more powder to raise the pressure level.

Don