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Vettepilot
01-08-2020, 06:06 PM
Ok, yes, new to BPC and boy do I have questions, but first a little background. I am already a fairly accomplished hand loader, and while I have not (quite) loaded Black Powder yet, I have several general BP manuals, (Lyman and such), that I have studied. I also have untold hours researching on the web, but that can be "sketchy ground". Lots of heresay, myths, self proclaimed experts, etc. I have more books on order, and yet more on my wish list.

I wish to load black powder cartridges in 44 magnum occasionally, and in 45-70 a good bit. Use will be informal target, plinking, just plain fun, and maybe some hunting or dangerous animal defense. (Big "maybe's" there...)

My main reason for writing at this moment is to inqire about the real world truths of fouling. I have read every thing from "Blow tube every round, wipe every five" to "Shoot all day no problem, clean it when you get home." Pondering this in a historical sense, I never saw in a Cowboy and Injun movie where they frequently stopped during a furious battle and said, "Take five everyone, and clean your guns."

So, I don't want to have to blow tube, but I don't want useless accuracy after 8 or 10 rounds either. That wouldn't be any fun....

I DO understand the need for an absolutely sufficient amount of a good and proper type lube. No petro-chemicals, etc. 45-70 is 24" barrel, 44 mag is 7.7" revolver. Will be using 240 grain cast in 44, and Lee 405 HB and Lee 500 in 45-70.

Sorry for long post, but giving you as much info as possible negates unnecessary follow up posts and saves everyone time and typing.

Oh... an idea I had. Could a fellow blast a bp lubed SMOKELESS round through, say every 12th round, to blow out the fouling??? Would that be effective and restore accuracy??

Looking forward to your suggestions and responses.

Vettepilot

brass410
01-08-2020, 06:12 PM
you sir, are not alone, I am joining you in the "what about boat" and will follow this ferverently

AntiqueSledMan
01-08-2020, 06:22 PM
Hello Vettepilot,

I have shot Black Powder in a muzzleloader for years, but have not shot a cartridge loaded with it.
I do shoot Aliant Black MZ in conversion revolvers, lots of smoke & lots of fun.
I am not against loading Black Powder, just have not shot any.
I must say, don't believe to much Hollywood. One of my favorite hobbies is finding faults in the movies.
One thing to remember is no air space, if your not shooting full loads some type of filler must be used.
I'm sure someone will jump in & tell you why you should or shouldn't use Black Powder.

AntiqueSledMan.

CoryT
01-08-2020, 07:04 PM
Ok. You likely wont get much starting out help here. Some will provide a bit of insight, but the response will eventually come stating to “read through the archives” on this site, along with possibly a link on why they get frustrated with newbies. About 9 or 10 posts below I asked about overpowder wads or cards with hollow base bullets, as I too am entering the BPCR world, with a .45-70. I advise you do read it as there is some really good info within, by literal experts. That is no joke either, they are experts.
I have not had the opportunity to try my loads yet due to the season and weather. When I do I will post the results.
Fyi, I have been reloading smokeless in dozens of cartridges for 30 years and shooting BP traditional percussion and flint muzzleloaders for 23 years.

Vettepilot
01-08-2020, 07:45 PM
Well, actually I have honestly been studying studiously all over the web, but can't seem to find the answers to the questions I posed. It seems quite hard to find info for BPC beginners, especially those that are not into competing. There's lots of advanced info out there, but as I said I am not into blow tubing, constant bore wiping, 500 to 1000 yard shots, nor competition. I just want the fun and economy of BP shooting, with the convenience of cartridges that my muzzle loading rifle and pistol don't give me.

My reference to the movies was in jest, but really, the average BP hunter and casual fun shooter doesn't blow tube....

This forum in general has been very good to me in the past, and I try to help people whenever I can too, so hopefully some good will come of my queries.

Thanks,
Vettepilot

Vettepilot
01-08-2020, 07:49 PM
I did find this, and found it quite interesting:

http://www.longrangebpcr.com/Controlling-Fouling.htm

Vettepilot

Vettepilot
01-08-2020, 07:55 PM
Ok. You likely wont get much starting out help here. Some will provide a bit of insight, but the response will eventually come stating to “read through the archives” on this site, along with possibly a link on why they get frustrated with newbies. About 9 or 10 posts below I asked about overpowder wads or cards with hollow base bullets, as I too am entering the BPCR world, with a .45-70. I advise you do read it as there is some really good info within, by literal experts. That is no joke either, they are experts.
I have not had the opportunity to try my loads yet due to the season and weather. When I do I will post the results.
Fyi, I have been reloading smokeless in dozens of cartridges for 30 years and shooting BP traditional percussion and flint muzzleloaders for 23 years.

As a matter of fact, I had already read your thread/post, before starting my thread. For whatever it's worth, from my studies and experience, in your case I would try filling the hollow base with soft lube, and use a stiff wad. Worth trying. I am ordering that same mold actually...

Vettepilot

Larry Gibson
01-08-2020, 08:27 PM
The probable solution to your question is there but it's a hotly contested subject; it's called "duplexing". Properly done you can indeed "shoot all day long with out using a blow tube or cleaning. Also, like most everything we do in reloading, if done correctly it is entirely safe and if not.....there can be some problems. I shoot mostly duplex loads in my trapdoors to replicate M1873 and M1882 loads. I have shot over 100 rounds in one day through my H&R LBH carbine w/o cleaning and accuracy was just as excellent with the last rounds as with the first. I also have shot quite a few in my Uberti SAA Artillery model w/o cleaning and the action or cylinder never bound up once.

country gent
01-08-2020, 08:59 PM
There are variables to the fouling issue that need to be taken into account. Heat, humidity, rifling and barrel length. Watch the fouling when shooting when it starts getting hard and crusty its time to clean. Watch for a lube star at the muzzle. It should start to show in just a few rounds. Use a good lube, SPG, Emmerts or emmerts improved.

Loading Black powder isnt rocket science by any means. The main thing to remember is no airspace. Figure the depth of the bullet in the case and find the charge that fills it to that point. Start there and work up in 1 or 2 grn increments. A card wad sometimes helps between the bullet and powder. Seat bullet onto powder / card and crimp

Vettepilot
01-08-2020, 09:13 PM
Thanks guys. I think I have the loading part down... studied hard and took notes, memorized all the "no-no's". I'm pretty good, and dam careful and a perfectionist at loading.

It's the maintenance during shooting that has me bothered. Really, how did the old time warriors and other shooters get by?? Serious question there....

Duplex, yeah, heard of it.... I don't know....

Vettepilot

Vettepilot
01-08-2020, 09:18 PM
So, regarding that duplexing. Instead, what of my idea of shooting a BP lubed smokeless powder round through every once in a while during a session to blow out the fouling??? Maybe with a .060" stiff wad under the bullet to help?

Vettepilot

CoryT
01-08-2020, 09:32 PM
Well, I ripped twenty .45-70 rounds, loaded with 60gr Goex 2fg, and my self cast, pan lubed 405HB without a card or wad through my Marlin GBL 18.5” bbl. I got it sighted in at 1.5” groups from a rest at 100 yds. Never wiped once and found no ill effects. My lube is 40% deer tallow/40% bees wax/20% olive oil. No drop tube but did some hand vibrating, a bit of compression and crimped.
This is as good a group as my smokeless load of IMR4198 does. This is strictly a hunting/plinking gun so I am quite happy.

Larry Gibson
01-08-2020, 09:46 PM
That might work but then if in a match it might not be allowed or if out shooting for fun will the zero be the same or would you be wasting 10 shots every 100?

I suggest you read the section about proper duplexing for Spence Wolf's book on replicating M1873 Trapdoor loads. A recent pressure test (measure the pressures with an Oehler m43 PBL) of my duplexed 45-70 M1873 load using the Lee 405HB over 54 gr GOEX Cartridge and with 54 gr GOEX Superfine (fffg) with 7 gr 4759 under both resulted in measured pressures of 400 and 900 psi higher than with a straight 70 gr load of both powders. All pressures were considerably under the SAAMI MAP for the 45-70 Cartridge. The benefit was the fouling left in the bore was, for the most part, significantly reduced to the point that fouling was never an issue or detriment to accuracy through out many rounds fired. The zero remained constant and no "odd rounds were needed, carried used nor wasted.

I also posted a lengthy report on loading the 45-70 on this forum; a "search" should turn it up. You might find that information useful.

FLINTNFIRE
01-08-2020, 10:17 PM
I to do a little duplexing , but when the subject comes up there is those who cry out , it is not needed , and no it is not always needed but it does shoot cleaner and done right I agree it is another tool to be used and also respected , read up on it where you can get good advice and then if you do use it , stay smart and use common sense , I started shooting black powder in the 70's and when you had a good mentor and followed their advice you learned , mr. gibson has the pressure testing equipment and I would follow his advice , good day and good shooting.

indian joe
01-09-2020, 09:26 AM
Ok, yes, new to BPC and boy do I have questions, but first a little background. I am already a fairly accomplished hand loader, and while I have not (quite) loaded Black Powder yet, I have several general BP manuals, (Lyman and such), that I have studied. I also have untold hours researching on the web, but that can be "sketchy ground". Lots of heresay, myths, self proclaimed experts, etc. I have more books on order, and yet more on my wish list.

Too much study not enough action methinks

I wish to load black powder cartridges in 44 magnum occasionally, and in 45-70 a good bit. Use will be informal target, plinking, just plain fun, and maybe some hunting or dangerous animal defense. (Big "maybe's" there...)

My main reason for writing at this moment is to inqire about the real world truths of fouling. I have read every thing from "Blow tube every round, wipe every five" to "Shoot all day no problem, clean it when you get home." Pondering this in a historical sense, I never saw in a Cowboy and Injun movie where they frequently stopped during a furious battle and said, "Take five everyone, and clean your guns."

wanna bet that during lull in the fighting those ole boys didnt dribble a bit of H2O outa their canteen down the barl to cool / clean things - in their place I would for sure

So, I don't want to have to blow tube, but I don't want useless accuracy after 8 or 10 rounds either. That wouldn't be any fun....

I DO understand the need for an absolutely sufficient amount of a good and proper type lube. No petro-chemicals, etc. 45-70 is 24" barrel, 44 mag is 7.7" revolver. Will be using 240 grain cast in 44, and Lee 405 HB and Lee 500 in 45-70.

ok you lucked onto two of the best lube carrying mold designs for the 45/70 - make you some simple lube - beeswax and tallow, or neatsfoot, or olive oil, or, or, or, - and use an overpowder wad (thick card, or a couple thicknesses of juice box, or milk carton, or HDPE poly cut from a ten litre water jug - something that fits neat and is 40 to 60 thou thick)


Prime yr case, fill it with powder a whisker higher than the base of the boolit will sit, insert a wad, put in lubed boolit, little bit of crimp so it dont fall out, go forth and make ye some smoke - tis that simple (ya said plinking and fun not match ammo)

Get a big lube mold for yr 44 and its even simpler

Sorry for long post, but giving you as much info as possible negates unnecessary follow up posts and saves everyone time and typing.

Oh... an idea I had. Could a fellow blast a bp lubed SMOKELESS round through, say every 12th round, to blow out the fouling??? Would that be effective and restore accuracy??
I am gonna say BAD idea .........you should know why ........PRESSURE(potential)..... ya gonna fire a smokeyless load up a tube thats gunked up wit BP fouling to the point it wont shoot ........think about that fer just a teensy while!!!!!!!

Looking forward to your suggestions and responses.

Vettepilot

Ya know if/when ya get yrself organised and make some of that nice willow charcoal powder - fouling will almost disappear from the radar.

Bent Ramrod
01-09-2020, 11:33 AM
Generally, the smaller the bore, the quicker it fouls, unless, of course, the powder charges are small in proportion. The calibers you are starting out with are pretty forgiving, and using the better grades of black powder, you shouldn’t need duplexing. The .45-70 is, hands-down, the easiest to get shooting well with black powder, and you should be able to adapt the .44-40 data you find to your .44 Magnum.

If you aren’t interested in formal target shooting, you won’t need to clean or blowtube every shot. How many shots you can make before the barrel cruds up and accuracy falls off depends on what you regard as acceptable accuracy in the shooting you do.

Eventually, though, your guns are going to throw wild ones and will have to be wiped. The old buffalo hunters sometimes had to use two rifles, when one would heat and foul beyond the capacity of the relative humidity of the air to keep the fouling soft. Some would urinate down the barrels to wash out the soluble combustion products. (I imagine the sequences in the cowboy and Indian movies where they did that were left on the cutting-room floor.)

How long you can get away without the extra work depends on your rifle, your loads, your shooting and your eventual expertise. I would advise that during load development for optimum accuracy, you wipe between shots. Once you have sorted out the proper boolit, powder charge, cartridge length, lube mixture, and the other nuances, then fire a bunch of shots and see what you can get away with before your shooting becomes unsatisfactory to you.

There are Internet savants who say they can fire fifty blackpowder shots into the same big hole at 200 yards without wiping or blowing. There are smokeless cast-boolit shooters who say they can fire 2700 ft/sec cast loads into under three MOA groups, too. I can’t do either one, but I can’t prove that they can’t do it, either. Maybe you can; maybe not. I would advise you to get a copy of the SPG loading manual, combine the directions in there with the most consistent advice and results on the Shiloh site and this one, and make up loads in accordance, and see what you can do. Once you’ve done your due diligence, you can see if you can reproduce those fist-size groups at 150 yards, firing one shot after another.

As Indian Joe indicates, there is no high road to blackpowder cartridge shooting that can be accomplished simply by reading the proper literature, loading ten rounds and pouring them into the X-ring. The loading procedures and management are different from smokeless shooting, but are pretty internally consistent for everybody. We all started where you are now (some with much less and much less reliable information that is available now), and we simply dove in and learned the nuances by doing.

It’s interesting work, and a lot of fun. Good luck.

Gunlaker
01-09-2020, 12:19 PM
When shooting black powder cartridge rifles I'm generally target shooting ( silhouette or BPTR ) and am trying to get the max possible accuracy so I always wipe between shots.

But, I have done some BP shooting in .45 Colt ( Marlin 1894, Ruger New Vaquero ), and a Winchester 1886 in .38-56. In those firearms I did nothing to deal with fouling except to blow into the breech now and then with the lever guns. I live in a reasonably humid area so my results might be different than yours, but I can say that in these firearms I can easily get 20 rounds of accurate shooting without cleaning or using a blowtube. I didn't use bullets with extra large lube grooves, just the RCBS 250gr bullet for the .45's and a custom 260gr one for the .38-56. Goex FFg, Pan lubed with DGL and no lube cookies. I think it works pretty well. In my Marlin I'd say the accuracy is pretty much as good as any smokeless load I've used at 100 yards.

In the Ruger New Vaquero I have to pull the cylinder and wipe it off before too long as it starts to bind, but it's pretty easy.

Chris.

Carrier
01-09-2020, 12:50 PM
That might work but then if in a match it might not be allowed or if out shooting for fun will the zero be the same or would you be wasting 10 shots every 100?

I suggest you read the section about proper duplexing for Spence Wolf's book on replicating M1873 Trapdoor loads. A recent pressure test (measure the pressures with an Oehler m43 PBL) of my duplexed 45-70 M1873 load using the Lee 405HB over 54 gr GOEX Cartridge and with 54 gr GOEX Superfine (fffg) with 7 gr 4759 under both resulted in measured pressures of 400 and 900 psi higher than with a straight 70 gr load of both powders. All pressures were considerably under the SAAMI MAP for the 45-70 Cartridge. The benefit was the fouling left in the bore was, for the most part, significantly reduced to the point that fouling was never an issue or detriment to accuracy through out many rounds fired. The zero remained constant and no "odd rounds were needed, carried used nor wasted.

I also posted a lengthy report on loading the 45-70 on this forum; a "search" should turn it up. You might find that information useful.

Larry could you please post what those pressure numbers are?

Vettepilot
01-09-2020, 02:33 PM
Thank you everyone for the great information. I REALLY appreciate it.

I am limited as to what I can do right at this moment. I am caring for my 75 year old sister that has terminal cancer, and believe me, that's a full time job! (She is exceedingly demanding.) Anyway that is the reason for the extensive study with no real action yet. Plus, that's just my nature too; thoroughly research and study things. I love to learn.

Ha. Ha.... I purposely chose those two molds BECAUSE of their big grease grooves. I can get BOTH molds for about 1/4 the cost of one "Big Lube" mold with handles.

Once again, thanks for the great answers!
Vettepilot

sharps4590
01-09-2020, 03:23 PM
You received a lot of good info!

I shoot duplex loads in two rifles but not for fouling control. However, duplexed loads ARE extremely clean and, sometimes, in some cartridges, return pressures lower than the original BP loads. But, that doesn't seem to be where you want to go and, that's fine.

Indian joe posed some good points.

Purely my opinion but Bent Ramrod's post was the best. No matter the powder, cartridge, bullet or load, no BP cartridge can be fired in perpetuity. Fouling IS inevitable. It is simply part of the game. We learn to manage it as best we can and wipe the bore or use a blow tube when we have to. It's mostly match shooters or shooters at a bench who use a blow tube I believe. I do when sitting at my bench and working up loads. For fun...it's sorta "who cares" as long as I can hit my target....somewhere. Hunting, I get anally serious!!

I too would recommend SPG's Black Powder Priming Manual. Steve and Mike's methods aren't the only right way but they're definitely a good way. Paul Matthew's "40 Years With the 45-70" is a good book as well. Perhaps you already have both.

I understand time constraints. Three days ago, 1-6-18, it has been one year since I finished chemo therapy. Anyway, jump in and get your feet wet. It's the best way to learn what works for you. Post your results as well, everyone wants to see them!!

WBH
01-09-2020, 05:18 PM
Read, Read & Read!

The above books are great resources. I shoot BPC in several calibers. By experimentation and elimination you will find what your rifle likes best.
I think you will find that any hollow base bullet will never give you the accuracy of a flat base. The Lee 405 bullet in the flat base is a good starting point. The 500gr Govt and the 525 Postell are also good choices. See if you can get a small amount of a number of different bullets before you go investing in molds. Some of us have molds for a specific caliber that add up to more than the rifle cost!
Go slow. SPG lube is good. Harlows is also good. Easy to make your own also.
Ive been shooting BPCR for 20 years and enjoy its challenges.

Did I say Read, Read & Read:smile:

indian joe
01-09-2020, 07:53 PM
That might work but then if in a match it might not be allowed or if out shooting for fun will the zero be the same or would you be wasting 10 shots every 100?

I suggest you read the section about proper duplexing for Spence Wolf's book on replicating M1873 Trapdoor loads. A recent pressure test (measure the pressures with an Oehler m43 PBL) of my duplexed 45-70 M1873 load using the Lee 405HB over 54 gr GOEX Cartridge and with 54 gr GOEX Superfine (fffg) with 7 gr 4759 under both resulted in measured pressures of 400 and 900 psi higher than with a straight 70 gr load of both powders. All pressures were considerably under the SAAMI MAP for the 45-70 Cartridge. The benefit was the fouling left in the bore was, for the most part, significantly reduced to the point that fouling was never an issue or detriment to accuracy through out many rounds fired. The zero remained constant and no "odd rounds were needed, carried used nor wasted.

I also posted a lengthy report on loading the 45-70 on this forum; a "search" should turn it up. You might find that information useful.

Larry
I have used duplex loads on occasion but been wary of possible pressure increase - usually get about 100FPS velocity increase with duplex load - (imr 4227 - I got better accuracy than with SR4759 - but the 4227 was new bought, the 4759 was ancient and been decanted into different containers as well) ..............sooooo I thought maybe the pressure increase would be more than you got - that is good news
The major negative with duplexing is its the "get out of jail card" and we dont learn anything much new about fouling management when we use it.

I would like to convince old mate VP that this whole blackpowder thing is not even one tenth as complicated as it seems to be in his mind right now ! --Sure the long range boys go to serious trouble loading ammo but I dont reckon it is any more pedantic or complex than the smokeless benchrest crowd.

Plinking with blackpowder is just a heap of fun - I shoot into a dirt backstop sos I can retrieve the lead and I shoot homemade powder - I can shoot my big guns for less (cash cost) than the cost of cheap 22LR ammo.

indian joe
01-09-2020, 08:12 PM
Thank you everyone for the great information. I REALLY appreciate it.

I am limited as to what I can do right at this moment. I am caring for my 75 year old sister that has terminal cancer, and believe me, that's a full time job! (She is exceedingly demanding.) Anyway that is the reason for the extensive study with no real action yet. Plus, that's just my nature too; thoroughly research and study things. I love to learn.

Ha. Ha.... I purposely chose those two molds BECAUSE of their big grease grooves. I can get BOTH molds for about 1/4 the cost of one "Big Lube" mold with handles.

Once again, thanks for the great answers!
Vettepilot

If you wanna spend a couple bucks extra LEE will sell you (spare parts) the bottom plate piece and the base plug for that 405 HB mold - then you can file the tit off the plug and ya got a 415-420 grain flat base boolit -- if ya got a lathe or a mate down the road with one - make up a new base plug (just a piece of brass or aluminium rod about an inch long) that eliminates the bottom driving band and one lube groove - that gets ya a 345 grain flat base - that mold is a bit slower casting because of the base plug but for 30 bucks you got three molds 345 g, 405grHB, 415 g. - thats cheap fun!! it casts 459 - 460 and the three different versions of it shoot fine in my 45/70 and 45/75 (I milled the top face of the mold so I got a wider meplat flat nose because I am using it in tube magazine guns - reduced weight about 15 grains - but no point of that in a single shot)

Vettepilot
01-10-2020, 02:29 PM
All great answers and info guys! Thanks so much!

I have the ability to modify that mold if I end up wanting/needing to do so.

I am not necessarily against duplexing.... just cautious and considering it. I'll read up some more on it. How did it come by it's detractors? Carelessness and getting the powders mixed??

Fire, smoke, great smell, and cheap shooting.... It's all good!

Vettepilot

Larry Gibson
01-11-2020, 10:52 AM
Larry
I have used duplex loads on occasion but been wary of possible pressure increase - usually get about 100FPS velocity increase with duplex load - (imr 4227 - I got better accuracy than with SR4759 - but the 4227 was new bought, the 4759 was ancient and been decanted into different containers as well) ..............sooooo I thought maybe the pressure increase would be more than you got - that is good news
The major negative with duplexing is its the "get out of jail card" and we dont learn anything much new about fouling management when we use it.

I would like to convince old mate VP that this whole blackpowder thing is not even one tenth as complicated as it seems to be in his mind right now ! --Sure the long range boys go to serious trouble loading ammo but I dont reckon it is any more pedantic or complex than the smokeless benchrest crowd.

Plinking with blackpowder is just a heap of fun - I shoot into a dirt backstop sos I can retrieve the lead and I shoot homemade powder - I can shoot my big guns for less (cash cost) than the cost of cheap 22LR ammo.

The idea I use behind using a duplex load is that taught me by Spence Wolf; the idea is not to increase velocity or 'power" of the load but simply to reduce the BP residue/fouling left in the bore so a blow tube or frequent cleaning are not needed.

To do that an equivalent amount of the BP charge is reduced per gr of smokeless used. I n the 45-70 for use in my TD rifle I use a 2.8 gr reduction of BP (GOEX Cartridge or FFFG) for every gr of 4759 used. A low starting load of 4759 was used and was increased one gr at a time until visual examination (looking through the bore from the breach end) after 3 shots of each test load. The visual examination will show that after each test load the fouling is moved further toward the muzzle. When the fouling is just blown out of the barrel you have a correct duplex load. As I've posted that load usually ends up being, with the 405HB and 500 gr M82 bullets right at the same level of velocity and very close to the same pressures as a straight BP load. The benefit is you won't have to be blowing through a blow tube or wiping the barrel every so many shots to maintain accuracy.

Using the above method I've found a load for rifles is 7 gr of 4759 under 54 gr GOEX Cartridge or FFFg duplicates either the M1873 (1350 fps) or the M1882 (1200 fps) loads. For my 45-55 carbine duplication load with the 405HB I use 5 gr of 4759 under 49 gr COEX cartridge or FFFg. I found in the carbine loads the BP does not burn as efficiently and fouled more. Thus it needed a bit more 4759 to blow all the fouling out. However, the psi is at the low end of 45-70 psi's and the velocity runs 1130 - 1150 fps out of my Carbine.

Springfield
01-11-2020, 12:44 PM
The longer the barrel the more problems you will have with hard carbon build-up/fouling. I shoot SASS matches with 44-40 pistols and rifles, along with my daughter, and we have no problem with fouling if we use bullets with enough lube. We have shot 60 rounds one day and then shot another match the next without even cleaning the guns in between.
Long range rifles are a whole different ball game. Almost always the barrels are much longer, plus the accuracy expected is much greater. So what works for one may not work for the other. I personally wold rather spend more for a mould that works than go to the trouble and time of using duplex loads. But I load for 4 people so my time is limited.

Carrier
01-11-2020, 02:19 PM
Larry can you post what those pressures are?

djryan13
01-12-2020, 11:01 AM
For those unlikely folks who started BP cartridge after 4759 was discontinued, any recommendations on alternatives? Been following this conversation a bit. Thanks for your great info...


The idea I use behind using a duplex load is that taught me by Spence Wolf; the idea is not to increase velocity or 'power" of the load but simply to reduce the BP residue/fouling left in the bore so a blow tube or frequent cleaning are not needed.

To do that an equivalent amount of the BP charge is reduced per gr of smokeless used. I n the 45-70 for use in my TD rifle I use a 2.8 gr reduction of BP (GOEX Cartridge or FFFG) for every gr of 4759 used. A low starting load of 4759 was used and was increased one gr at a time until visual examination (looking through the bore from the breach end) after 3 shots of each test load. The visual examination will show that after each test load the fouling is moved further toward the muzzle. When the fouling is just blown out of the barrel you have a correct duplex load. As I've posted that load usually ends up being, with the 405HB and 500 gr M82 bullets right at the same level of velocity and very close to the same pressures as a straight BP load. The benefit is you won't have to be blowing through a blow tube or wiping the barrel every so many shots to maintain accuracy.

Using the above method I've found a load for rifles is 7 gr of 4759 under 54 gr GOEX Cartridge or FFFg duplicates either the M1873 (1350 fps) or the M1882 (1200 fps) loads. For my 45-55 carbine duplication load with the 405HB I use 5 gr of 4759 under 49 gr COEX cartridge or FFFg. I found in the carbine loads the BP does not burn as efficiently and fouled more. Thus it needed a bit more 4759 to blow all the fouling out. However, the psi is at the low end of 45-70 psi's and the velocity runs 1130 - 1150 fps out of my Carbine.

indian joe
01-13-2020, 10:42 PM
For those unlikely folks who started BP cartridge after 4759 was discontinued, any recommendations on alternatives? Been following this conversation a bit. Thanks for your great info...

4227 is about as good as it gets for duplex loads - we were using it under dirty Chinese fireworks powder - and for Larry - definitely got an increase of velocity = 60 to 100fPS over the straight black load - while that may not be the aim - I reckon its gonna happen most times ifn you fill the case to the same height and density with BP over the smokeless .
Mr Vettepilot has been talkin about makin his own Powder for some time - if/when he gets that sorted out - I dont think he will have need for duplex loading - I dont use it (duplex) anymore except for a model 92 in 38/40 where I want that bit of extra sting

Larry Gibson
01-14-2020, 07:06 AM
Larry can you post what those pressures are?

The M1873 45-70 rifle load [7/54 of 4759/GOEX Cartridge] runs 20,400 psi. With 54 gr Superfine it ran 25,000 psi.

The M1873 45-55 Carbine load [5/49 4759/GOEX cartridge runs 17,700 psi.

SAAMI MAP for TD level loads is 28,000 psi.

Larry Gibson
01-14-2020, 07:18 AM
For those unlikely folks who started BP cartridge after 4759 was discontinued, any recommendations on alternatives? Been following this conversation a bit. Thanks for your great info...

I have not tested any yet but I know a couple guys who are using IMR 4227, H4198 and 5477 with apparent success. I've had a jug of 8 lbs 4759 which I save for these duplex loads. I may get around to testing the others one of these days? Remember the key to TD duplex loads is not an increase in velocity or "power" but simply using enough of the smokeless to blow the BP fouling out of the barrel so a blow tube or frequent wiping isn't needed.

With the other three mentioned powders to start with I would decrease the BP charge 2.2 gr for every gr of smokeless used starting at 4 gr smokeless and 63.6 gr BP. After inspecting the bore after 3 shots and seeing the long streaks of BP residue I would increase the smokeless 1 gr and decrease the BP another 2.2 gr per test (3 shots) until the streaks of BP residue were no longer present. You will still see lube and some fouling but it is the long streaks of BP fouling (hard charcoal residue) that are the problem and what you want blown out. Once you find the amount of smokeless needed to just blow the residue out. The BP charge can be tweaked +/- a bit to give an equal velocity to the standard 70 gr load (with either 405 or 500 gr bullet)

Carrier
01-14-2020, 11:11 AM
The M1873 45-70 rifle load [7/54 of 4759/GOEX Cartridge] runs 20,400 psi. With 54 gr Superfine it ran 25,000 psi.

The M1873 45-55 Carbine load [5/49 4759/GOEX cartridge runs 17,700 psi.

SAAMI MAP for TD level loads is 28,000 psi.

Thank you.

Vettepilot
01-14-2020, 01:10 PM
4227 is about as good as it gets for duplex loads - we were using it under dirty Chinese fireworks powder - and for Larry - definitely got an increase of velocity = 60 to 100fPS over the straight black load - while that may not be the aim - I reckon its gonna happen most times ifn you fill the case to the same height and density with BP over the smokeless .
Mr Vettepilot has been talkin about makin his own Powder for some time - if/when he gets that sorted out - I dont think he will have need for duplex loading - I dont use it (duplex) anymore except for a model 92 in 38/40 where I want that bit of extra sting

Hi there Indian Joe, good to hear from you and hope you had great holidays.

I ALMOST managed to make my first batch of powder before the holidays, but ran out of time. And now, for various reasons, I am still not yet home from my holiday travels. But hopefully soon I will experience that wonderful smell from my own bp....

I am really glad I started this thread. Lots of good info flying in and being exchanged. You guys are great!!

Thanks,
Vettepilot

Vettepilot
01-14-2020, 01:19 PM
Just for my own education, are pressure concerns the big "bug a boo" against duplex loads? If not, what are the concerns?

I will be loading BPCR for 45-70 for a gun that will tolerate 40,000 psi, so I am not too concerned with BP pressure.

Vettepilot

Gunlaker
01-14-2020, 06:47 PM
Just for my own education, are pressure concerns the big "bug a boo" against duplex loads? If not, what are the concerns?

I will be loading BPCR for 45-70 for a gun that will tolerate 40,000 psi, so I am not too concerned with BP pressure.

Vettepilot

The main thing people have against duplexing, at least long range shooters, is that they are not traditional, or even necessary for competition.

Duplexing was used a fair bit in the schuetzen era, so is more accepted as a common practice.

If you are just doing your own thing, then it certainly should have some advantages for you.

Chris.

djryan13
01-14-2020, 07:34 PM
Can the same duplex method and calculations be used for 44-40?

indian joe
01-14-2020, 08:28 PM
Can the same duplex method and calculations be used for 44-40?

Using 4227 - I use the LEE 3cc scoop for my 38/40 (about 3.75 grains) ---26 inch barrel
the 5cc scoop would be enough for the 45/70 (about 6.2 grains) --- 26 inch barrel
If I load duplex they are layered -----the smokeless goes at the base on the primer and then case is filled to normal height with blackpowder - THEY ARE NOT MIXED

Chill Wills
01-14-2020, 09:06 PM
Using 4227 - I use the LEE 3cc scoop for my 38/40 (about 3.75 grains) ---26 inch barrel
the 5cc scoop would be enough for the 45/70 (about 6.2 grains) --- 26 inch barrel
If I load duplex they are layered -----the smokeless goes at the base on the primer and then case is filled to normal height with blackpowder - THEY ARE NOT MIXED

For what it is worth, 20 years ago Lee Shaver and I were talking in Raton about duplexing smokeless powder with black powder for Longrange match events (800, 900, & 1000yds). It was legal for NRA matches then as well as in the Canadian matches.
He had told me he experimented using his match load three ways. Putting the smokeless on the bottom/BP on top. Putting the BP on the bottom and the smokeless on top and last he mixed it all up and dropped it in the case. His observation was, it all shot the same.

I have used it both smokeless under BP and mixed. I could not tell the difference. I quit there.

One other quality duplexing may help with is making poor powder shoot better. I learned this shooting with Dennis Bruns last century.


-There are a lot of right ways to do this..... Have fun and be safe.

Gunlaker
01-14-2020, 11:27 PM
Thanks for that Chill. Very interesting!

Chris.

GregLaROCHE
01-15-2020, 01:03 AM
BP is a lot of fun. A couple of years ago, I was wondering if I could shoot it in my .45/70 Marlin. Surprising how many people said not to do it because I’d ruin the gun. Luckily some fine folks from this forum set me straight that there was no problem doing it. It was great fun experimenting with different ways to load. I still enjoy shooting the .45/70 with BP, especially with friends who have never shot BP or a.45/70. I normally shoot a smokeless rond at the end. It makes clean up a lot easier. A year ago I bought a muzzle loader and spend most of my gun time with it.

Good luck and have fun with it!

indian joe
01-15-2020, 06:45 AM
For what it is worth, 20 years ago Lee Shaver and I were talking in Raton about duplexing smokeless powder with black powder for Longrange match events (800, 900, & 1000yds). It was legal for NRA matches then as well as in the Canadian matches.
He had told me he experimented using his match load three ways. Putting the smokeless on the bottom/BP on top. Putting the BP on the bottom and the smokeless on top and last he mixed it all up and dropped it in the case. His observation was, it all shot the same.

I have used it both smokeless under BP and mixed. I could not tell the difference. I quit there.

One other quality duplexing may help with is making poor powder shoot better. I learned this shooting with Dennis Bruns last century.


-There are a lot of right ways to do this..... Have fun and be safe.

Chill
Maybe the capitals gave the wrong impression there -----when I load duplex (dont use it much now) they are layered - I never tried mixing it - just more work again and I am inherently lazy.

Your second point is the most relevant one I think, duplex loading can make crappy blackpowder relatively easy to live with

Which gets to my third point - I make some nice willow charcoal powder that shoots clean so dont see the need for duplex much anymore

fourth point - my testing with decent quality powder gave better extreme spread numbers with straight blackpowder than with Duplex loads (it makes sense - why else would the hotshots that run things have ever allowed its use in longrange events ?!!)

I was surprised by the pressure data thats been quoted - I dont have any way to test that so had assumed that because I was seeing an increase in velocity over the chrony then it followed there would be an increase in pressure ? fair assumption as far as it goes ? and errs on the side of safety -- not the case ? thats good news!

Vettepilot
01-15-2020, 10:51 AM
Common misconception. Regarding velocity and pressure it's the pressure curve that counts; not just peak pressure.

Vettepilot

Chill Wills
01-15-2020, 01:18 PM
common misconception. Regarding velocity and pressure it's the pressure curve that counts; not just peak pressure.

Vettepilot

bingo