Do you think this 45LC load will lead up a rifle?

[tacotime]

Very wary of leading up a rifle barrel that I can't see inside well.

Do you think this load will lead up in the rifle?
Win. 94, 16 inch, 45 Colt, 250 grain .452 Laser Cast (says Brinell 15), WLP primer, with the maximum published Hodgdon pistol load for 231 (797fps pistol) or Titegroup (830fps pistol)?

Bore has not been slugged, but we hope these are pretty consistent sized bores.

And do you think the Winchester factory 250 grain LRN Cowboy Load (at 750fps pistol) will lead up in the rifle?

Thanks.

[Thumbcocker]

What is the bore diameter of the rifle? Boolit must fit. The worst leading I ever had was from a hard undersized boolit. I am no fan of the hard lubes used by commercial casters. Looks pretty but not as effective as I would like. I would be tempted to apply JPW or lee liquid lubes to the projectiles assuming they are properly sized but I am a belt and suspenders type of person.

[Wayne Smith]

Fit is king. Load is not. If the boolit fits your rifle it won't lead given a normal, published load. Hard boolits tend to lead more than softer ones simply because they don't bump up to fit. Again, fit is king.

[MT Gianni]

Lasercast has a long history of using bullet lube that won't melt or come off in shipping. You can only try it and see. The good news is that leading is removable.

[Tatume]

What is the bore diameter of the rifle? Boolit must fit.

Groove diameter is much more important.

[Outpost75]

Tumble lube your Laser-cast bullets in Lee Liquid Alox on top of the useless hard lube which is on them and they won't lead. Hard bullets which cannot upset to seal the bore combined with hard lube which does not flow to coat the bore is a textbook recipe for leading. If unable to cast your own, in the future order soft bullets no harder than 10 BHN with SPG lube on them and they will not lead and you can shoot them at full velocity with either smokeless or black.

[Wheelguns 1961]

Just don’t load up hundreds of them. Shoot some and shine a light down your barrel. If there is leading, stop. If not, keep going.

[Tatume]

Tumble lube your Laser-cast bullets in Lee Liquid Alox on top of the useless hard lube which is on them and they won't lead.

+1 I use about 1500 commercially cast bullets per month, and lube them with 45-45-10 prior to loading.

[tacotime]

Wow! 1500 per month!

What brand do you like?

What's the general opinion on the Penn cast bullets?

What do you figure is about right on the BHN hardness scale for mid-range 45LC rifle loads? And I know there are variables, but just generally speaking.

A while back it seemed like the cast bullet sellers were reluctant to post the BHN of their offerings. But I see the Montana 250gr is BHN 22. The Laser Cast says BHN 15. Who shows BHN 10 bullets?

[Outpost75]

Penn Bullets are good.

[Tatume]

What brand do you like?

I've been using several different brands, but most recently Rim Rock Bullets. I like his prices and shipping. Most brands will shoot good, including Penn.

[Wheelguns 1961]

The guy that owns penn bullets is a real flake. He is one of the reasons I started casting. I guess I should thank him! Missouri bullet company offers alot of 12bhn bullets. They are pretty good for about anything. That is probably the softest you will find.

[boatbum101]

Both Maplewood & Matt's will work with you on softer alloy bullets . Like Montana Bullet Works they hand cast so they aint the cheapest . I know that Maplewood & MBW use LBT Blue lube , Matt's I don't know . All of these 3 have pretty good selection of moulds also . IIRC MBW will also offer ACWW instead of HT if you ask . If you use OT bullets make sure you get them sized to fit your barrel ( + .002 over bore slug ) & TL them with 45-45-10 . They're harder than woodpecker lips & their lube sucks .

[Larry Gibson]

Very wary of leading up a rifle barrel that I can't see inside well.

Do you think this load will lead up in the rifle?
Win. 94, 16 inch, 45 Colt, 250 grain .452 Laser Cast (says Brinell 15), WLP primer, with the maximum published Hodgdon pistol load for 231 (797fps pistol) or Titegroup (830fps pistol)?

Bore has not been slugged, but we hope these are pretty consistent sized bores.

And do you think the Winchester factory 250 grain LRN Cowboy Load (at 750fps pistol) will lead up in the rifle?

Thanks.

I've shot a lot of Laser Cast bullets over the years. Did a lot of R&D for the Powder River cartridge Company that was with and used Laser cast bullets. I've shot a lot of Laser cast bullets in my own rifles (45 Colt and 44-40) along with many other rifles in 38/357 and 44 SPL/Mag. Yes, the laser cast bullets with that load will probably lead the M94s barrel to some degree with that load. The solution has already been given; simply TL the bullets in LLA....a light coat will do and let them thoroughly dry before loading.

Yes, the Winchester factory 250 LRN Cowboy load will lead the barrel also. it helps a lot to just with LLA on your fingers to lube the loaded bullet nose....again, let dry thoroughly before use.

[DougGuy]

Montana has a BHN 12 alloy and they also have Veral's soft blue lube, they work pretty good, call them and ask if you can get the boolit you want in soft alloy with soft lube.

[tacotime]

Thanks... two things...

What would be the expected culprit for the factory Win. 250 grain load at 750fps (revolver) to lead up the bore? Not enough velocity? But aren't they using load at that load in Cowboy Action rifles all the time?

And, the Missouri BC webpage says 12 BHN is only good to about 850 fps. That sounds like trouble shooting in a rifle expecting 1000-1200 fps or so, correct?

Does anyone know if the bore diameters were pretty consistent on the later years Win. 94AE rifles produced in CT after FN took over? The quality on these rifles I have seen are very good.

And does anyone know what the later Mod. 94 bore diameters have been for 45LC?

[onelight]

Tumble lube your Laser-cast bullets in Lee Liquid Alox on top of the useless hard lube which is on them and they won't lead. Hard bullets which cannot upset to seal the bore combined with hard lube which does not flow to coat the bore is a textbook recipe for leading. If unable to cast your own, in the future order soft bullets no harder than 10 BHN with SPG lube on them and they will not lead and you can shoot them at full velocity with either smokeless or black.
Once more good advice from Outpost75.
In my experience hi-tek coated are more forgiving than traditional lubed commercial cast bulk bullets.
But load test rounds and keep your lead removal stuff handy while you expierment [smilie=b:

[Larry Gibson]

"What would be the expected culprit for the factory Win. 250 grain load at 750fps (revolver) to lead up the bore? Not enough velocity? But aren't they using load at that load in Cowboy Action rifles all the time?"

Not enough of the right lube.

Yes, they use that load and many others that do lead the bore. In Cowboy action shooting (SASS) accuracy is secondary to speed. Most matches shoot revolvers to about 10 yards max and the leverguns to 25 yards max. The targets are large and have no score rings....you just have to hit the target (usually steel plates) fast. A little, even a lot of leading makes no difference at those ranges.

[Tripplebeards]

I size my new vaquero boolits .001” over bore size. I loaded them with a 5.2 grains of trailboss and powder coat them with zero leading. I’m sure they are moving way slower than yours and I can hit quarters at 25 yards with the load consistently. I’m gonna have to run across the chronograph one of these days with that slow load.

[Outpost75]

I size my new vaquero boolits .001” over bore size. I loaded them with a 5.2 grains of trailboss and powder coat them with zero leading. I’m sure they are moving way slower than yours and I can hit quarters at 25 yards with the load consistently. I’m gonna have to run across the chronograph one of these days with that slow load.

You mean GROOVE size, for a typical Ruger that is .452-.453"

[Tripplebeards]

I take that back. I sized them at .451 so they can be pushed through all the forcing cones with the pressure of my finger. At .451 my boolits are sized .0005” over what they slugged through the bore with great accuracy and zero leading.

[lotech]

I bought a new .45 Colt Winchester Trapper about thirty years ago. The load I've used most has been the Lyman #454424 cast of wheelweight alloy, about 12-13 BHN and 8.5 grs. of Unique. Muzzle velocity is around 1,100 fps (I think), but I'd have to check my notes to be sure. I've sized bullets as large as .456", but .454" has been the most accurate with .452" a very close second. I've never had a leading problem regardless of bullet diameter.

I don't remember trying a hard bullet in my carbine. In recent years, I've gone to HS-6 powder and get even better accuracy than with Unique.

[tacotime]

Update, did not fire the Winchester factory ammo, but did fire a few factory loaded MagTech 250 LFN Cowboy and some from an old box of Bitterroot BVA 200 LFN Cowboy (looked hard cast), and did not detect any leading in the bore.

But I did recover a MagTech boolit after it shot through a 2x4 board and lodged in some dirt. The bullet did not expand but apparently hit a pebble in the dirt and was mangled on one side. Most alarmingly, the lube groove appeared to be intact and largely full of lube, maybe as Larry suggested.

Was going to slug the bore but didn't have a sinker. But I did have a 250 gr Speer swaged bullet, which pushed through fairly easy, and it showed that all sides did not apparently touch the groove bottoms. I could not get a good caliper reading due to the uneven wear on the slug. These bullets are advertised as .452, but not sure how consistent they are out of the box. Does the condition of that bore slug bother us?

[Outpost75]

Sounds to me like you have a .454ish barrel. The Speer bullets are soft lead and will "slug up" in a full charge load with a fast-burning powder like Bullseye. A charge of 7-1/2 grains is correct for a full-charge with soft lead 250-grain bullet. This data from Larry:

254759

It also helps to apply a light coat of Lee Liquid Alox or LSStuff 45-45-10 over top of the existing factory lube on the Speer soft-swaged lead bullets, as the lube on them may be adequate for revolvers, but is taxed to its limits in a rifle-length barrel.

[Thumbcocker]

Take a swagged boolit and give it a couple of whacks with a hammer and it will be fat enough to slug the barrel.

[tacotime]

I should have thought of that. Thanks.

[gpidaho]

tacotime: I agree that leading a barrel should be avoided but it isn't as hard to clean out as some would like you to think. Using a little tumble lube as mentioned above is good advise Or use powder coated bullets is another option. I'd much rather clean out a leaded barrel than one that is severely copper fouled. Experiment a little until you find a load that works well in your rifle. Gp

[Drm50]

The only major leading I’ve ever had was with factory swaged lead bullets. I cast for several calibers and size for individual rifles. I use to cast hard bullets but I don’t anymore. I shot loads of cast in revolvers and original LV type rifles at near factory duplication of the period.

[tacotime]

That bore slugged to .4509 using a micrometer. I'm thinking .453 cast with Alox.

[Walks]

I've been happy with the old standard load of #454190 (.454) lubed with 50/50 or WLL BAC over 8.5grs of Unique. Cast of 50/50 - COWW/#2.

Shoots great in My Marlin 1894CB 24", bore is .4515.
You just have to listen to Folks like Outpost75.