.30-06 for deer, need 1700ft-lbs

[njc110381]

Hey guys. I've recently picked up a .30-06 Browning BLR and would like to try to load it to hunt deer. UK law dictates that I need to produce 1700ft-lbs at the muzzle, so velocity comes into consideration. The rifle has a 1-10 twist and a 22" barrel.

If I load the Lee 170gr flat nose which seems very popular I'll need to make 2125fps. Is that realistic with a gas check? We don't have lead wheel weights here as far as I can tell but I do have printing type, plain roofing lead and pewter for tin. I haven't bought a mould yet so if I need to go heavier I can. If I was to load something at 200gr I would only need 1960fps, so maybe that would be a more sensible place to start?

We have some weird rules here, the energy requirements being one of them. In England I need 1700ft-lbs to shoot a roe deer. They weigh about 60lbs!

[WinchesterM1]

Oh yeah that’s easy! I can get 2300 FPS with my 308 lee 150, and get 5 round groups the size of your thumb nail at 100 yards. I would start with Varget or IMR 4064 those seem to work well. For higher velocity I like to use 25/75 pure/WW with 3-5%tin I know people say it’s a waste but I have tons of tin and I do think it holds together better

[Thumbcocker]

Should be able to make that velocity with good boolit fit and any of several medium to slow powders. 4895 springs to mind.

[John McCorkle]

Not speaking from a ton of experience here, but I'm developing a paper patched load for 06 that gets 2300-2400 fps with 4198 and a 165 ranch dog mold.

It's decently accurate but not where I want it yet. Paper patching is definitely worth looking into as an option...more work and more variables but with that come a lot more pride in accomplishment too! Looking forward to taking deer next season with it ...

Good luck and enjoy!!

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[waksupi]

Velocity is easy. I would try around 90% roof lead, and 10% print type, assuming it is like our linotype. You don't want to use too much linotype, as it makes for a very destructive bullet at these velocities. Although the 170 gr. will work fine, I recommend the 200 gr. bullet as I believe heavy for caliber always works best for cast bullets. You could push this just as fast as the 170 gr.

[centershot]

njc, your 10" twist will probably be the limiting factor here. It may not be possible to break the 2000 fps mark with that twist unless everything in your load is balanced perfectly. I'm not saying it can't be done but I believe you'll find it easier to achieve the energy you need using a 200+ grain bullet running around 18-1900 fps.

WinchesterM1 states that he has achieved over 2000 fos with his .308, it could be that his rifle has a 1-11 twist which is common in .308. Or perhaps he has a rifle that just plain works (Lucky Dog!). You won't know until you try! If it were me, I'd be looking at paper-patching a 180-ish grain bullet of soft construction as Waksupi has suggested, loaded over a charge of 4350 or 4831. Check the Paper Patching forum for more info. Good luck on your quest!

[brewer12345]

I would go for a boolit of 200+ grains. More likely it will work.

[bmortell]

in my 10 twist 30-06 groups get 10x bigger over 2k weather its PC with gas check or PP. it would be much easier to get a 200gr+ boolit to make power since speed and rpm is the hard part. id put about 220gr at 1900fps an try to be somewhat soft, like 10 hardness if you can

[ShooterAZ]

A 200 or heavier grain boolit at 1950fps is your better option in my opinion, and it isn't difficult at all to get to that velocity and still retain excellent accuracy. Are they going to weigh your boolits and chronograph your loads? I use the NOE version of the 311041 and at 1900-2000 fps it performs very effectively on deer. I've gone higher, but beyond 2000fps accuracy starts to go downhill quickly in my 1/10 twist M700 30-06. Paper patching is another option as other have mentioned. It's a bit of work but you can get very close to jacketed bullet velocities with adequate hunting accuracy.

[richhodg66]

I am also in the heavier bullet camp and would probably want one with a bigger meplat. Consider the RCBS 180 grain flat point. Mine drop from the mold over 190 grains and the nose is a better profile for energy transfer. It's been a good shooter in every .30 caliber rifle I've tried it in.

[PositiveCaster]

Lyman shows several loads which meet the minimum velocity requirement for a 200-grain cast bullet of 1960 fps. I too suggest a 200-grain bullet.

http://marvinstuart.com/firearm/Manuals/Reloading/Reloading%20Manuals/Lyman%20Reloading%20Handbook%20-%2048th%20Edition%20-%202002%20-%20ocr.pdf


.

[Screwbolts]

I to recommend a heavier boolit, something 200+ gr like the Arsenal 311331 or from NOE.

[725]

Just my 2 cents, here, but a heavy for caliber boolit would be my choice. Also, a thought about your circumstances over there. How would the fish police know what energy levels are obtained by your ammo? Over here, the rules writers rarely know what they are doing when they draft laws & regulations.

Good luck. 725

[KCSO]

A friend of mine used a 30-30 Winchester for years with a 31141 Ideal Bullet at just 1900 FPS from a 20inch carbine. He killed every deer he shot at with no problems. I use the same bullet in my 30-06 at just over 2000 from a 22 inch barrel with good accuracy and good killing power. But usually I opt for a 190 grain rn bullet I made from a Lee mould and push it just a little more doing about 2100 fps. I use RX7 powder and Carnuba Red lube and get no leading and accuracy uder2" at 100 yards with a 2 1/2 power scope.

[njc110381]

Thanks for all the replies guys! General opinion seems to be go heavier so I'll do that, that's no problem.

I may give paper patching a go but I will need to learn how to do it. I'm happy to invest some time in learning things though, it's good fun. The type I have here is linotype yes, 10% sounds good as what I have should last me a lifetime at that ratio!

As for my loads being checked, well it will only likely happen if something goes wrong. If I get caught doing something I shouldn't or they have reason to believe I may have been doing something wrong they would test them. If it's as easy to do things legally as it is illegally, it makes sense to keep things as they should be to avoid bother. The trouble being that a firearm related offence could result in a lifetime ban from owning them, it's just not worth it.

I'll have a look around and see what moulds are available to me here. A lot of the good makes you have over in the US aren't imported here. It's not worth the makers messing around with the paperwork for such a small market.

[sundog]

I am also in the heavier bullet camp and would probably want one with a bigger meplat. Consider the RCBS 180 grain flat point. Mine drop from the mold over 190 grains and the nose is a better profile for energy transfer. It's been a good shooter in every .30 caliber rifle I've tried it in.

Exactly what I was thinking...

[Larry Gibson]

Yes, go heavier. A 200 - 210 gr bullet at 1960 fps will just make the energy requirement and be at the top end of the RPM Threshold so good accuracy through 200m should be very possible. Many good loads with slow medium burning powders and the slower burning powders are available. I suggest extruded powders and use a dacron filler if load density is less than 80%. A bullet with a meplat cast of an alloy of 97/1.5/1.5 air cooled for 7 - 10 days, sized at .311, GC'd and lubed with a softer lube such as WL 2500+ will give it's best accuracy for the first 6 - 8 shots out of a clean barrel. Groups will double in size shortly after unless you clean the barrel. I always start hunting with a clean barrel and figure if the game isn't got in 6 - 8 shots I ain't gonna get it and might as well go home and clean the barrel...….

[Screwbolts]

What Larry Said! /\ /\

[njc110381]

Well guys, it looks like I'm quite limited regarding what I can easily source here. Lee is stocked in a number of places, Lyman and RCBS are hard to find. I think NOE will ship to me.

If I was to buy the lee 200gr round nose and hollow point it a little would that do the same job on deer as having a flat nose? Energy transfer is important and I don't know how that works exactly. Not with cast anyway.

I think paper patching could be a no go, I'll be using a moderator/suppressor.

[Bird]

I use the rcbs 30-180fn. 10'' twist to 2100 fps. IMR4064 or IMR4895 will get you where you want to be with good accuracy.
As a side note, a source for lead that is often overlooked, are demolition companies. Most of the older houses have lead sheet above the bay windows, and on the flat roof areas. Back in the early '80's I used to take 1 to 2 tons a month to the scrapyard. Still plenty of soft lead to be had in the UK.

[dverna]

Considering the possible issue with game wardens, is it worth shooting cast bullets? A couple of boxes of decent hunting bullets will last decades and be easier to develop a load with. If you want a lower recoiling load, using jacketed bullets designed for the .30/30 at .30/30 velocity will do the trick and not raise any questions.

Go ahead and get a mold to muck around with, but hunt with jacketed. There is no advantage to hunting with cast bullets, except the pride of accomplishment.

I am a KISS person.

[megasupermagnum]

Do you already own the Lee 170 grain? If so, try it. What is your standard for accuracy? Maybe you won't get the best accuracy ever at 2200 fps, but 2"-3" should be attainable, members here have done better than this too.

[brewer12345]

Well guys, it looks like I'm quite limited regarding what I can easily source here. Lee is stocked in a number of places, Lyman and RCBS are hard to find. I think NOE will ship to me.

If I was to buy the lee 200gr round nose and hollow point it a little would that do the same job on deer as having a flat nose? Energy transfer is important and I don't know how that works exactly. Not with cast anyway.

I think paper patching could be a no go, I'll be using a moderator/suppressor.

I would think that the round nose 200 grain lee would be fine for game. I would try using a relatively soft alloy so that you get expansion/bullet deformation. With a suppressor I would suggest powder coating as well.

[seetrout]

In the UK do they really pull bullets and chrono your loads to determine the ft lbs of NRG? Or are they like here where they would say "Oh 30-06 gives this much NRG per factory load data"? That's what they would do here.

[Gamsek]

Some good options from MP Molds
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200112/8df444fdc77877a497ea26f175edf850.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200112/f71b1cb889abc619b017ed25cc3f70e4.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200112/ed21be3e15ceeb53f9c4d50365a42daa.jpg

[njc110381]

I'm a gardener by trade. Quite often when ripping down old sheds I still stumble across things made back in the days when folk used to use tin roof sheets and flash them with lead. Sometimes old post tops have a lead cap too. I pick up enough to cover my needs. A few of my trade friends also know I use it so will save any they find for me.

I could just shoot jacketed. I already do. But I've shot over 500 deer with all sorts of calibres from .243 to .375H&H Mag. We don't have a tag system in the UK - I shot seven deer in one day once and gave the meat to friends! We just don't have enough shooters to control the population unlike you guys in the US who have to share your resources carefully. I know guys who go out and shoot twenty per outing, and they're paid to do it. So with that in mind I'm looking for other options to keep the hobby exciting. Making my own projectile to take a deer with is an interesting challenge.

So far I have moulds for my .45-70, .416 Rigby and my .357. The latter isn't allowed for deer, so it's range use only. The .45-70 currently isn't conditioned for deer, only range because I couldn't justify having so many guns using deer as good reason. Amongst developing something for the .30-06 I would also like to cast for my .416. I need to hone out a Lee .410 sizer to .417 so I can size and gas check them, then I can have a play with that too. I have the RCBS .416-350FN, it looks like a good shape.

[Duckdog]

I don't know about in the UK, but when they rebuild the water systems on street projects, the old water services are mostly lead pipe. They should be considered "pure" and are pretty soft, but usually it ends up getting scrapped. Usually, where I am at, it is there for the asking. Usually a few cases of beer will grease the skids!

[GooseGestapo]

I use a very simple recipe;
Lee .311-170gr FNGC, COWW +2% tin from 95/5% Leadfree solder.
34.0gr H4895 using Lee #2.5 dipper. Crimp to crimp groove with Lee FCD.

Works both M1 Garands, and shoots 2-2.5 MOA from all 5 ‘06’s I own.

With the Lee .311-155 PTGC (6-cavities!) I use the 2.8 dipper shimmed to 36.5gr.
With the 170gr boolit, I set the Garands and O3A3 sights to 600yds. For the 155gr, 500yds.

My older brother once took down a ~140lb whitetail doe with the 150gr FNGC over 7.5gr of Unique in a .30/30. Bullet penetrated from femur (hip) to under hide on front of chest. (What we call a “Texas heart shot”!). He was hunting snowshoe hares in Maine... At 2,000+fps, the same shot would have made a mess!!!

[dverna]

I'm a gardener by trade. Quite often when ripping down old sheds I still stumble across things made back in the days when folk used to use tin roof sheets and flash them with lead. Sometimes old post tops have a lead cap too. I pick up enough to cover my needs. A few of my trade friends also know I use it so will save any they find for me.

I could just shoot jacketed. I already do. But I've shot over 500 deer with all sorts of calibres from .243 to .375H&H Mag. We don't have a tag system in the UK - I shot seven deer in one day once and gave the meat to friends! We just don't have enough shooters to control the population unlike you guys in the US who have to share your resources carefully. I know guys who go out and shoot twenty per outing, and they're paid to do it. So with that in mind I'm looking for other options to keep the hobby exciting. Making my own projectile to take a deer with is an interesting challenge.

So far I have moulds for my .45-70, .416 Rigby and my .357. The latter isn't allowed for deer, so it's range use only. The .45-70 currently isn't conditioned for deer, only range because I couldn't justify having so many guns using deer as good reason. Amongst developing something for the .30-06 I would also like to cast for my .416. I need to hone out a Lee .410 sizer to .417 so I can size and gas check them, then I can have a play with that too. I have the RCBS .416-350FN, it looks like a good shape.

Thank you sharing your situation and hunting conditions. It was interesting.

[Dan Cash]

I believe Accurate Mold will ship to England. I use this 215 grain bullet http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=31-215L-D.png in gas check form but paper patched for .30-40 Krag and ,30-06 Springfield. It is propelled by 42 grains of Alliant R19 in the Krag and 52 grains of same in the -06. Both cartridges are giving me 2200-2400 fps. While my mould is cut for a gascheck, were I to purchase a new mould it would be the one listed above as paper patched, the gas check does not seem necessary.

This bullet is my exclusive hunting bullet for deer, antelope and elk. It is very effective to 250 and accuracy is more than adequate.

[Silvercreek Farmer]

Sure wish we had a deer population like that! I'd never need to put one in the freezer. The family could eat one over the course of a week! I love watching Scott Rea on you tube cut one up!

[WinchesterM1]

njc, your 10" twist will probably be the limiting factor here. It may not be possible to break the 2000 fps mark with that twist unless everything in your load is balanced perfectly. I'm not saying it can't be done but I believe you'll find it easier to achieve the energy you need using a 200+ grain bullet running around 18-1900 fps.

WinchesterM1 states that he has achieved over 2000 fos with his .308, it could be that his rifle has a 1-11 twist which is common in .308. Or perhaps he has a rifle that just plain works (Lucky Dog!). You won't know until you try! If it were me, I'd be looking at paper-patching a 180-ish grain bullet of soft construction as Waksupi has suggested, loaded over a charge of 4350 or 4831. Check the Paper Patching forum for more info. Good luck on your quest!

Yes I forgot to mention I have a 1/12 twist! Thanks for reminding me

[quilbilly]

1700 ft# for roe deer!!! That is ridiculous! Achieving it is easy but for roe deer?? Red deer stags maybe. Roe deer aren't much bigger than a super-sized coyote! I have heard in the Scandanavian countries that a triple deuce is very popular. At that velocity and that caliber, there won't be much meat left and I have heard the meat is delightful. I now have family in the U.K. and have always dreamed of a roe deer hunt for some reason. I can't help but wonder if there are different rules for muzzleloaders and roe deer so you wouldn't ruin as much meat.

[richhodg66]

I thought it odd to have a power level that high for a 60 lb animal seemed strange as well, but game laws often don't make sense here either.

[njc110381]

1700 ft# for roe deer!!! That is ridiculous! Achieving it is easy but for roe deer?? Red deer stags maybe. Roe deer aren't much bigger than a super-sized coyote! I have heard in the Scandanavian countries that a triple deuce is very popular. At that velocity and that caliber, there won't be much meat left and I have heard the meat is delightful. I now have family in the U.K. and have always dreamed of a roe deer hunt for some reason. I can't help but wonder if there are different rules for muzzleloaders and roe deer so you wouldn't ruin as much meat.

Plenty of people around over here to take you out if you visit. Message me if you're planning a trip, I'm sure something could be sorted and if they're not too far from me I may be able to take you myself.

.22 Hornet used to be a popular roe calibre until the law changed. We have more lenient laws for humane dispatch and I've shot roe with my Hornet after road accidents etc. They fall over just the same.

[richhodg66]

Reading your first post again about that 170 grain bullet and 2150 FPS, that sounds suspiciously like a factory .30-30 loading here in the states. Makes me wonder if that's what they used as a benchmark?

[njc110381]

Our most popular deer calibre here is .243. .30-30 is rare here but no doubt it would have been a consideration because it's so popular elsewhere.

[Petander]

Here in Finland we have the same muzzle energy system for hunting ammo.

But roe deer is in a lower power class than whitetail... moose is higher. I have shot a few roe deers with 300 WM and well... a fmj would be best if you're gonna eat. Of course the fmj is not legal,a hunting bullet has to expand.

But if I was planning deer hunt with cast,I'd try NOE or accurate 200+ grains flat nose.

One note: I'm going to order bismuth alloy from Rotometals. 20 lbs shipping to Finland is about $50, a quick DHL delivery. An average 2-3 lbs bullet mold from USA using USPS costs about $36 and is slower. I just bought a H&G ,paying more for USPS than the mold. But Rotometals shipping cost suprised me,ordering casting alloys from overseas is not completely out of question.

Good luck with whatever you decide to do. I hunt with jacketed,even moose with 45-70. One bad day someone just might decide my cast loads are solids,that would be a very bad day.

[richhodg66]

For deer the size you're talking about, I would think just about any .30 caliber cast bullet with a flat nose would work fine at 1800 FPS or more. We have some pretty darn big deer here in the Midwest and even though they average twice the body weight of deer down south, they really don't take that much killing with a boiler room hit. You've just gotta put the bullet where it counts.

[njc110381]

.....

May I ask why you felt your reply wasn't relevant Gamsek? I thought it was very interesting and it showed a lot of options from our part of the world. It was a good post and could have been useful for anyone going back through the search facility later too.

[Gamsek]

May I ask why you felt your reply wasn't relevant Gamsek? I thought it was very interesting and it showed a lot of options from our part of the world. It was a good post and could have been useful for anyone going back through the search facility later too.

Sorry, I got a feeling it turned from “which mould” to “how much is necessary to kill a deer”. We have 1000J at 100m requirement for roe deer here and I know that you have to follow your regulations. Will repost two photos back.

[richhodg66]

Sorry, I got a feeling it turned from “which mould” to “how much is necessary to kill a deer”. We have 1000J at 100m requirement for roe deer here and I know that you have to follow your regulations. Will repost two photos back.

For those of us not as familiar with the metric system, what does 1000J at 100 meters equate to in a more or less standard cartridge loading?

This is interesting stuff, I'm always intrigued at how different hunting laws are from state to state here and in some cases like Texas, even from county to county.

[njc110381]

1000 Joules is about 740ft-lbs. To retain that at 100m, I'd say a .222 would be about the minimum. .223 would do it easily. On the other hand bigger pistol rounds like the .44 magnum, although starting out with the same energy at the muzzle, would fall short at 100m because of the poor efficiency of the bullet in flight.

[Gamsek]

For those of us not as familiar with the metric system, what does 1000J at 100 meters equate to in a more or less standard cartridge loading?

This is interesting stuff, I'm always intrigued at how different hunting laws are from state to state here and in some cases like Texas, even from county to county.

I don’t want to hijack the topic but since we are talking about Joules and roe deer, yes it’s https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200112/da69201d76f4dfb17f9cf8be219b5b1b.jpg
Minimum Joules, bullet diameter and weight of hunting bullets are set depends on game. If you use monolithic bullet, weight can be lower.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200112/560e6d402c1aa9427c82583a288561a6.jpg to explain a bit.
Top to bottom
Brown bear, 3000J, 7mm (.284”)
Red stag,Capricorn,wild hog, 2500J, 6.5mm or .257”
Wolf, chamois, wild sheep, 1y old stag/hog .243”
Roe deer, jackal, lynx .5.6mm or .222”
Then mink, fox, birds minimum dia.177”

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200112/424a3c257fe3c7ca7db1d7ffbf66d5de.jpg
My last roe buck hit with 130grs MP 311410 HP GC, 300 BLK.

[quilbilly]

Plenty of people around over here to take you out if you visit. Message me if you're planning a trip, I'm sure something could be sorted and if they're not too far from me I may be able to take you myself.

.22 Hornet used to be a popular roe calibre until the law changed. We have more lenient laws for humane dispatch and I've shot roe with my Hornet after road accidents etc. They fall over just the same.
I might just take you up on that someday. Now that we have two brand new grand-nephews in the London area (Beckinham) my better half is starting to hint to me about a visit.

[Petander]

That Mihec "Hammer Of Thor" looks really impressive,even though a tad light...

About energy requirements... Our energy is also measured at 100 meters. Almost any factory 308 Win soft point hunting ammo is moose legal ,at the same time almost all 45-70 factory ammo is underpowered and not moose legal.

Does that make a 308 better big game caliber than 45-70?

[Duckdog]

Nope. There's very few things walking that a 45/70 cannot take at 100 yards. The 308 is a fine cartridge, but there's something about the ole 45/70 that made it a long range buffalo gun that has stood the test of time. Millions of dead buffalo can confirm that!

[dkf]

Some states here in the US have wonky requirements for legal hunting cartridges also. IMO it mostly boils down to the people making the rules are just ignorant, they don't know enough about what they are trying to rule.

Accurate has quite a few bullet designs with a good sized metplat that will work in the 30-06. I'd lean towards a GC bullet because well having a GC really does not hurt.

[Beaverhunter2]

Wow! Those regs would be a challenge here. In Michigan we can hunt whitetail deer with anything except rimfire or muzzleloaders smaller than .44". The exception is the south half of the Lower Peninsula where most centerfire rifles are banned (for deer hunting only) to reduce the range because of the population density.

Back on topic- I'm getting 2080fps with the Lee 170FN (182gr as loaded for me) in a .30-30. I powder coat them and am getting no leading. 2 1/2 moa at 100 yards. That's close to what you need. .30-06 should be able to get you there.

My suggestion would be try your Lee 170FN. Worst case- it doesn't work and you need to order a heavier mold. Best case- you get the velocity you need and it's time to go hunting!

Good luck!

John

[Motor]

I don't know if already mentioned but I powder coat my cast boolits. I have found that with PC I can use a softer alloy. I still use the gas check as well. Judging from my experience I'd say you could get what you need with powder coated boolits that are only mid teens in Bhn hardness.

I'm shooting a 500 S&W @ 32K psi with boolits that are less than 15bhn using non-gas checked powder coated boolits.

Motor

[Drm50]

There is to much over thinking on cartridges and bullets for deer. A 30/06 is plenty of gun for deer and the best bullet is the one your rifle shoots best. All the Hunter has to do is make a decent shot. Gimmick bullets don't make up for poor shots.

[Beaverhunter2]

There is to much over thinking on cartridges and bullets for deer. A 30/06 is plenty of gun for deer and the best bullet is the one your rifle shoots best. All the Hunter has to do is make a decent shot. Gimmick bullets don't make up for poor shots.

I think you may have missed the OP's needs- he's legally required to get 1700 ft. lbs. at muzzle. To do that he needs to get the Lee 170FN to 2150fps or go with a heavier boolit to reach the required energy levels at lower velocity. My .30-30 load of choice with the Lee 170FN is 27.0 grains of IMR3031 at 1950fps. It's the most accurate I've found. Sufficient for Michigan Whitetails? Yes. Legal for 60lb. Roe Deer in the UK? No.

The discussion is about trying to find him a boolit/load solution that meets the requirements of his hunting regulations- not about what's needed to kill a 60lb. deer.

Have a great day!

John

[John McCorkle]

I'll throw out there again I think paper patching to be a good potential option for the OP.

Easily gets him into the velocity range he needs and is easier than you'd expect. On the plus you get the pride of a niche hobby within a niche hobby.

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