1/2" at what range

[roysha]

At what range will your, more or less out of the box gun, shoot into a 1/2" circle? Not a 1/2" group, but all of the shots, (at least 5 consecutive) INSIDE a 1/2" circle. A few minor modifications, such as trigger adjustment/change, bedding, etc. are acceptable for this conversation but I'm really not interested in full blown custom built guns. Stock target rifles and "high end" rifles are included in my "box" gun definition as long as they are that, stock.

I have found a new to me, game, that is a great deal of fun to shoot and am curious as what you folks have for rifle/ammo combinations that will meet the 1/2" criteria.

[dverna]

So a group of .500-.222 for .278"?

All my guns will do that at some range

At 100 yards, none of my .22's can do that...so should I say...I am not capable.

[Larry Gibson]

At 50 yards my Remington Model 504 will put 5 shots inside 1/2" with select ammunition most of the time. My old Remington M37 target rifle (box stock) will 10 shots inside 1/2" at 50 yards all day long in decent conditions with most all "match" 22LRs.

We shoot a 400 point 100 yard BR match once a month here. Four 10 shot strings are shot on 4 different bulls. The X ring is right at 1". Usually there are 4 or 5 400 point scores with the winner being by X count. I have shot numerous 10 shot strings with 10 Xs with the right select match ammunition and under mild wind conditions. The winners have very high end match or custom built match rifles. I usually place 2nd to 4th...…..:sad: which is fine with me as it's just a fun shoot.

[bmortell]

ah, I just realized this is under rimfire after typing for a while. inside a half inch without touching is strict, basically means .25" group. but I know a new cz455 with various eley ammo will do a normal .5" 5 shot at 50yds. but I can do your standard at 25yds which I guess don't sound very impressive when its put like that

[NSB]

The most economical gun I've eve owned that could do that is my CZ455 sporter with very select/tested ammo, shot off a solid rest with me shooting the gun. My only concession to modification was adding a Timney trigger to it...under a hundred bucks for the trigger. I have owned two different Anschutz rifles that would do this right out of the box with no modifications. However, both of those guns were a minimum of three times the cost of the CZ. Actually, about four times the cost. Even then, it required a lot of time testing ammo to find what worked the best and then buying a large lot of that ammo. FWIW, I shot around 35,000 rounds of .22lr rifle a year for over ten years back when I shot a lot of competition. You don't just buy a gun and ammo and "get er done". There's a definite learning curve. Good luck with your new shooting game.

[Tripplebeards]

I didn’t do anything to my 22 WMR Ruger American plain Jane all black with a 22 inch barrel accuracy wise except for lighten the trigger. I polish the trigger group and cut about a coil and a half out of the trigger spring. It breaks around 18 ounces. The very first time I took it out I shot a .648 and a .678” 3 shot group at 100 yards with Winchester 2250 ft./s ballistic tip varmint ammo. I only shot 3 inch groups and I repeated it again with another three. I then tried two groups of three with Hornaday 2200 ft./s Vmax ammo. I shot a .312” and a .314” with two groups of 3 in a row. So I guess if I would’ve shot six times with the same or ammo at each target you can average these groups out. I used a Nikon 3.5x14 pro staff 5 and Warne QD rings. I’ve since installed a KDW scope base so I can take my night vision on and off of it as well. I removed my quick detached mounts with my Nikon last year and forgot I did it and reinstalled it and never checked zero. If you seen some of the posts I listed here on the squirrels I’ve shot at 100 yards my POA obviously never moved. Now my 22lr CZ 452 ultralux I bought used I mounted a 2x7vx1 with tasco rings, never cleaned it, or checked action screws for torque specs. I did lighten the trigger. Maybe pulls at a pound max. The optic was pretty blurry and I tried a bunch of groups at 50 yards and the best groups came from the cheap Winchester 33 threes with shot a half inch group outside the outside. Aquilas Wouldn’t hit minute of pie plate at 50 yards. Velocitors shot a .7”, 5 shot group. I cleaned the barrel the other day, I talked my action screws to 22 inch pounds( it took a good full turn and a half so they were maybe 10 in pounds?), I remove my rear sight blade to install a longer optic, and installed a cheap tasco world class 3x9 mildot optic. I’ll have to retest. I bought some CCI stingers and I’m hoping they shoot under an inch at 50 yards. I’ll sight in with the Winchester 333’s and see if they shoot tighter.


I did some research on that Ruger American 22 inch barrel 22WR Martin and saw that someone get a gun review on it and shot about the same groups with those Hornaday Vmax so I don’t think it’s uncommon to have that gun and ammo combo to shoot that tight of groups. My Smith has one and recommended it to me as his shoots just as tight with vmax. I found mine on sale the Christmas before last at Cabela’s discontinued for 199 bucks. I called the store which was an hour away and they had one left and zero left in any other stores in 17 HMR or 22 WinMag I paid for the last 22 WMR they had over the phone and literally ran to my truck and drove there and picked it up. Best thing I ever did it’s the funnest gun I own. I did have a few feel the fires and fired ammo sticking in the chamber when I first got it. I Took apart the bolt and found very ruff machining, a good size burr of metal floating around in it and thick dark grease packed in it. I polished all the parts and reassembled with some synthetic slip 2000 and polished the inside of my chamber with mothers chrome polish. Never had a hiccup since. I still have to clean my chamber after about every box of 50 or two or I’ll get build up from all the powder residue and the empty cases will start sticking again. I did have some FTF Until I cleaned the bolt. The only random FTF i still had was from the Winchester’s which I’ve read is pretty common with that ammo. I stopped buying it and have zero FTF with the hornadys and they shoot tighter anyways.

It must be a rimfire thing because that used CZ that I bought had 3 out of 4 FTFs right off the bat. Whoever owned it never cleaned it. I took the bolt apart and found it had shellac and varnish all over the internals and look like a dirty carburetor. I polished all the parts and put it back together with the same lube and I had only one FTF in 200 rounds when I tested it. I blame that on a bad round as well cause I tried to fire it three times in a row and tossed it.

[dtknowles]

25 yards or 50 yards depending on what you mean by inside the circle. At 25 yards all the shots would be inside the circle not even touching the circle easy. I have three firearms that can do that my Anschutz Exemplar, my Ruger MKII Hunter and my Savage Anschutz mark 10. At 50 yards some of the shots would cut the circle. The at 50 yards assumes a nice day. As you extend the range with .22 LR wind conditions make a big difference.

Tim

[robg]

My BSA martini international can shoot tiny groups at 50 yards but me keeping a group inside a half inch circle is something else.

[M-Tecs]

Groups are measured center to center of the holes. To be inside a 1/2" circle you are needing to shoot a 1/4" group. Very few rimfire guns or ammo are capable of that type accuracy at 50 yards.

This is what the very best rifles and ammo can do.

https://www.accurateshooter.com/guns-of-week/22lr-rimfire-ammo-comparison-test/

http://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/8711043/m/9871088921

Capable ammo is not cheap.

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1392140858

[tazman]

I have 2 CZ rifles that will do that at 25 yards. At 50 yards, close but not quite.
Easily minute of squirrel head though.

[Marinekayak]

Check the dimensions of an NRA 50 Yard and 100 yard target. I don't have one in front of me to measure but I think the 10 ring @ 50 is about the dimensions your looking at. Any quality target rifle like an Anshutz 2013 or Bliecker will shoot one hole groups all day long when paired with the right ammo.

[sigep1764]

I have a CZ455 that will do it with RWS ammo and get very very close to the same with CCI Standard Velocity. Sporter barrel, wood stock, and a bipod.It has a Mueller scope that had so so reviews on RimfireCentral.com, but is working very nicely.

[rking22]

Most of my scoped (or target sighted) rifles will do it (.278 group cyc) at 25 yards. Both T-bolts, a M69 Winchester, and the 69A all capable of .25 at 25 yards for 5 shot groups. 52Sporter repro probably at 35 yards but limited by the 6x scope I use almost universally on my squirrel rifles. I believe my Match 54 international held that at 50 meters, but has been 35years since I tried, talking 50 meter prone competition.
I no longer have the inclination to pay the price for target ammo that is needed to consistently hold good groups on paper. Even less interest in benchrest, so the data is old and over a long period of time. In general a box stock 22lr that hold consistent .278 ctc groups at 25 is not terribly uncommon, but at 50 that becomes much more costly and unusual, for a stock Sporter.
I forgot, but my 10 inch MkII Ruger would do it at 25 yards when scoped and benchrested, I thought that exceptional. That based on numerous 3/8 inch 10 shot groups from it @25. My M17 8 3/8 would probably do it scoped, just guessing but I shot some very tight open shifted grouped with it, back in the day.

[Thundarstick]

I test my rifles and ammo with ARA rimfire targets, if you don't cut the first line, it's inside. 500, cut outside the big ring, and it's over an inch. I use to play all kinds of games over at rimfire central. The .25 at 25, and .25 at 50 club where two of my favourite. You shoot 4 groups of 5 shots and 4 sizer shots on the same sheet of paper, measure the smudge marks of the sizers, average, and measure outside smudge of the groups widest point, then subtract the sizer for you group. 3 of the 4 groups had to be less than 0.250 for the gun to get in the club. Same gun, different ammo was allowed.
To make it work takes a gun that's capable, ammo that's capable, a shooter that's capable, and just about dead calm weather conditions, and in my experience 70F and above temps. The lower the temp goes, the harder it got for me because of ammo ignition and lubrication behaves erratically.

Probably my best bone stock 50 yard rifle is Remington 541T shooting ELEY ammo. I have 2 Browning T- Bolts that will do it at 25 yards, and two self customized 10-22s that will do less than. 250 at 25 yards. When you start shooting that ARA target where accuracy and consistency count, that's where the rubber meets the road!

I love to hear some one say "I've got a bla bla bla that'll shot into a dime at 50 yards all day long", I've not seen a single one able to back it up at the range! Not one! Shooting 22lr rimfire into tiny groups is its own form of insanity!

[M-Tecs]

Yep the lot to lot accuracy variation of ammo was to much for me. Whenever I found a good lot searching for a useable supply was a pain.

[Tripplebeards]

Well I went out with my CZ today and finally sighted it in with a new cheap Tasco world class scope 3 x 9 mill dot I mounted on it the other day. I also torqued the front and rear action screws to 22 inch pounds. It took me a little bit but I finally got it sighted in at 25 yards with Winchester 333’s that I knew shot very well out of the gun. Last time I tested it when I first bought the gun and did not clean the barrel or check the action screws and I was shooting consistently half inch groups at 50 yards with the 333’s. My actions screws when I checked them the other day were very loose. It took a good one and a half plus rotations with my wheeler torque wrench to tighten them to 22 inch pounds. I also cleaned the barrel for the first time. When I sighted the gun in today at 25 yards I aimed for a bullet hole in the target. I stack three in the bullet hole that looked like one hole basically. I then went out to 50 yards to try a group of the CCI stingers that I bought the other day. I wasn’t expecting miracles because ive read on every other forum that they did not group very well in CZ rifles. Here’s my first five shot group at 50 yards with the CCI stingers. I do have to firmly close the bolt as the bullets grab the lands. I’ll be using them for squirrel hunting from now on and then the Winchester 333’s for back up when I can’t afford to go out and buy the expensive stingers.


https://i.imgur.com/YrXWett.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/2sp8Rjv.jpg


After I shot this group I checked it at 75 yards and they drop about an inch and a half. I then played with the mill dots with the cheap Winchester ammo at 100 yards. I had it set at nine power and hit dead on aimed with the second mill dot dead center. Once I figured out where the drops were at 100 yards I hit 11 out of 11 little pieces of stones that were the size of a 50 Cent pieces or smaller. The gun is ridiculously accurate!

[Forrest r]

Interesting to say the least.

The 1/2" @ 25yds is a good test for sporter rifles.

All's anyone has to do is grab a handful of usbr targets and play around on the 50yd line. The 9-ring is .3", if you can consistently hit 9's or better on a usbr target. You'll be in the ballpark.

[Tripplebeards]

Here’s the very first 100 yard group I shot with my my Ruger American 22 WMR with hornady vmax ammo.

I shot a smaller group the second time around a few minutes later.

https://i.imgur.com/SerWpEF.jpg

and here is the first 100 yard group testing the Winchester varmint ammo at 100 yards...

https://i.imgur.com/AfkpiLU.jpg


Imo the 22 wmr’s are more inherently accurate.


Here’s a review with similar results...


http://www.downrange.tv/blog/reviewing-the-ruger-american-rimfire-22-magnum/26532/

[sandog]

My Nylon 66 and Browning Bl-22 lever will shoot inside 1/2" at 30 yards with the ammo they like best, Mini mags in the BL-22 and RWS HVHP in the Nylon 66. They are equipped with peep sights, if scoped I could stretch that out a bit.
My scoped 552 Speedmaster will keep RWS Subsonics inside 1/2" at 50 yards. I shoot 10 shot groups with it, and they are always in a dime size cluster at 50 yards.
The CZ American Varmint barrel and skinny barrel Ruger 77, both in .17 HMR will do 1/2" at 100 yards, with Hornady ammo.
My Ruger MK IV Lite pistol is capable of 1/2" groups, if only I could hold it steady enough !

[dverna]

Man, I am not nearly as good as most of you. Shooting a consistent .278" 5 shot group at 50 yards+ with a stock .22 rifle is excellent.

[M-Tecs]

Man, I am not nearly as good as most of you. Shooting a consistent .278" 5 shot group at 50 yards+ with a stock .22 rifle is excellent.

That may change a bit if a $100 bet per group was on the line. I've never done it with groups like this but I have made $300 on 1,000 yard bets on hitting a deer target.

[chsparkman]

My old Ruger 77/22 stainless with Zytel stock was terrible until I shimmed the bolt a few years ago. Now it will shoot within .5" at 50 yards, using Remington Subsonic, and is therefore my most accurate rimfire for squirrels. Headshots are no problem when I can rest the forearm against a tree.

[dave roelle]

interesting, Whats the New Game

[Hick]

Out of the box my CZ-527 shot 0.49" at 50 yards (5 shots) with a Lyman 225646 bullet and 5.8 grains HP-38-- got me a first at NCBS in 2018.

[Thundarstick]

At what range will your, more or less out of the box gun, shoot into a 1/2" circle? Not a 1/2" group, but all of the shots, (at least 5 consecutive) INSIDE a 1/2" circle. A few minor modifications, such as trigger adjustment/change, bedding, etc. are acceptable for this conversation but I'm really not interested in full blown custom built guns. Stock target rifles and "high end" rifles are included in my "box" gun definition as long as they are that, stock.

I have found a new to me, game, that is a great deal of fun to shoot and am curious as what you folks have for rifle/ammo combinations that will meet the 1/2" criteria.

Well, firstly this was posted in the RIMFIRE section, soooooooo I took it to exclude center fire guns and cartridges. Secondly, you can NOT compare .22lr with .22WMR, 17HMR, or 17HM2 or it's a grape to grapefruit comparison! For clarification, are you asking for that cherry picked, one out of fifty group, or do you really mean "consistently" shoots .250, or .500 groups.

I've got an old tube feed Marlin that shot a 5 shoot .245 with Winchester Wildcats, ONCE.

I'll also add, brig your non target.22lr, and your bulk pack ammo out to the range. Well shoot 5 shoot groups at 50 yards for $10 each best group. I'll bring my wind flags, T- Bolt, and target ammo and see who goes home with the most $10 bills. Shooting a .22lr for real accuracy and precision will make you feel like a genius reloading and shooting your center fire! The .22lr has to be one of the most frustrating exercises in the shooting sports. From what I've gathered over the years you can realistically expect .600- 1.000 at 50 yards with most non target sloppy chambered guns shooting good factory ammo it likes (this is MOSH btw). Switch to target ammo in a target chambered gun and your ability to read the wind and adjust for it becomes the deciding factor on benchrest target, or group size!

[LAH]

My most shot .22 is a Marlin 780. I use a 4X Weaver on that rifle. It will do the 1/2 inch thing at 25 with the right ammo & most importantly if held correctly. Sporter rifles under $500.00 with bulk ammo that will stay under a true inch for 5/5 shot groups at 50 aren't seen every day where I shoot. If you can get them in the stock correctly, feed them good ammo & most importantly SHOOT them you might get those rifles to 1/2 inch but more likely it will be 3/4. Just my ramblings.

[Tripplebeards]

Well I can tell you the CCI stingers I posted the above group on absolutely suck on squirrels. I’ve read years of review and all the hype of how they literally blow the heads right off of a squirrel. I shot two yesterday and both ran like they weren’t hit. It took three shots with the last one in the head to put it down. The headshot you couldn’t even see where the bullet entered. It exited in the same area but the other two shots went through from Texas heart shots all the way from the rectum to the front neck. Those two Texas heart shot that squirrel still ran and I had to chase it down and shoot it in the head ...completely ridiculous. I’ll go back to my cheap Winchester 33 threes that shoot just as good at 50 yards as the stingers deal and they put squirrels down where they stand or they crawl 6 to 12 feet and die... And cost about 2/3 less. The second squirrel I shot yesterday I aimed right at its neck at 55 yards. I blew it off the stump and hit the ground and ran 15 yards and up into a hollow tree with a nasty blood trail going all the way to it. My stinger HP bullets behaved just like a FMJ and do not expand. I’ll have to try some of the segmented versions and see if they shoot with the darn. I’m not a big fan of how the stingers cases are so long that you have to force the bolts handle down to chamber them anyways. I would assume that probably helps with accuracy when jamming the bullet into the lands.

[Thundarstick]

My "go to" squirrel gun is a suppressed T- Bolt shooting ELEY SSHP and head shots just about fling them off the limb, DRT!

[tazman]

Well I can tell you the CCI stingers I posted the above group on absolutely suck on squirrels. I’ve read years of review and all the hype of how they literally blow the heads right off of a squirrel. I shot two yesterday and both ran like they weren’t hit. It took three shots with the last one in the head to put it down. The headshot you couldn’t even see where the bullet entered. It exited in the same area but the other two shots went through from Texas heart shots all the way from the rectum to the front neck. Those two Texas heart shot that squirrel still ran and I had to chase it down and shoot it in the head ...completely ridiculous. I’ll go back to my cheap Winchester 33 threes that shoot just as good at 50 yards as the stingers deal and they put squirrels down where they stand or they crawl 6 to 12 feet and die... And cost about 2/3 less. The second squirrel I shot yesterday I aimed right at its neck at 55 yards. I blew it off the stump and hit the ground and ran 15 yards and up into a hollow tree with a nasty blood trail going all the way to it. My stinger HP bullets behaved just like a FMJ and do not expand. I’ll have to try some of the segmented versions and see if they shoot with the darn. I’m not a big fan of how the stingers cases are so long that you have to force the bolts handle down to chamber them anyways. I would assume that probably helps with accuracy when jamming the bullet into the lands.

My experience with stingers is decades old. Back then, they were both expensive and explosive on performance. I stopped buying them due to the expense.
The standard Winchester/Remington hollow point work perfectly well and don't cost what the Stingers do.
I get nearly the same groups with Winchester/Remington/Federal hollow points as I do the target ammunition. More than good enough for squirrels.
What might be surprising is just how well shorts shoot in many rifles.
I think I will try some in my model 17 and see how they perform.

[Tripplebeards]

I tell ya, when I sighted it in the other day with the Winchester 333's I had fun at 100 yards and figured out that to use the 2nd mil dot down and I hit dead center! Once I figured out where to aim I rolled 11 for 11 stones in a row smaller than the size of a squirrels head so if I had my range finder and a squirrel that would sit long enough I'm in business! I know tha Cz ultralux open sights are set up for 300 yards so I'm going to see how far out I can connect till I run out of mil dots. The only issue I had yesterday was my optic got wet and looked foggy when the wet snow came down so I'm going to have to try some of the scope dope I bought probably 30 plus years ago and see if it works.

[roysha]

[QUOTE=Thundarstick;4800902]Well, firstly this was posted in the RIMFIRE section, soooooooo I took it to exclude center fire guns and cartridges. Secondly, you can NOT compare .22lr with .22WMR, 17HMR, or 17HM2 or it's a grape to grapefruit comparison! For clarification, are you asking for that cherry picked, one out of fifty group, or do you really mean "consistently" shoots .250, or .500 groups.

So where in my post does it say to compare any of your listed cartridges? Although my main interest is 22 LR, it is, as you stated, the RIMFIRE section so, logically, any rimfire would be included in the conversation.
Taking the post in context, as a whole, I believe it can be assumed that the groups would need to be able to be consistently reproduced. Reread the last sentence.

I've got an old tube feed Marlin that shot a 5 shoot .245 with Winchester Wildcats, ONCE.

Accidents happen.

I'll also add, brig your non target.22lr, and your bulk pack ammo out to the range. Well shoot 5 shoot groups at 50 yards for $10 each best group. I'll bring my wind flags, T- Bolt, and target ammo and see who goes home with the most $10 bills. Shooting a .22lr for real accuracy and precision will make you feel like a genius reloading and shooting your center fire! The .22lr has to be one of the most frustrating exercises in the shooting sports. From what I've gathered over the years you can realistically expect .600- 1.000 at 50 yards with most non target sloppy chambered guns shooting good factory ammo it likes (this is MOSH btw). Switch to target ammo in a target chambered gun and your ability to read the wind and adjust for it becomes the deciding factor on benchrest target, or group size!

What exactly, in the context of my post, does your 50 yard, or any other range for that matter, contest have to do with anything? I asked, AT WHAT RANGE WILL YOUR OUT OF THE BOX GUN SHOOT 5 SHOTS INSIDE A 1/2" CIRCLE? I don't care if it is 5,10,15,25 or whatever range.

[rking22]

I read the op as you just stated, but did assume you were talking 22lr only. If I were interested in playing a game of “longest distance to keep all 5 inside, not touching the line” I would chose the 17hrm. Automatic advantage of needing a .323 ctc group instead of .278 not to mention a better projectile design. Suspect the game will class by bullet dia for fairness??
I can only state with certainty the capability at 25 yards, from playing around with the .25 at 25 game. At 50 meters from competition but never measured groups, just needed to break the x ring.
In between distances are rarely shot and measured, I just know that the 52sporter is so close to doing it at 50 yards that I “assume” it can at 35 or so.
Interesting game concept, from a practical standpoint I still consider 1/2 for 5 at 50 to be a valid standard. I squirrel hunt, I want the bullet to break into the brain, dosent matter if it is completely inside. Head shots only, if I can’t get a head shot, squirrel wins today. Sub Sonics are quieter and leave the woods more undesturbed, kill just fine in the brain.

[dverna]

Try Rimfire Central so get some other opinions.

Neither my ancient Anschutz sporter or Winchester M52 sporter will consistently meet you standard at 50 yards...at least with me at the trigger. I do not do any testing at shorter ranges.

[MT Gianni]

To quote the late BruceB "when did a group get to be less than 10 shots?"
My CZ452 does it at 50 yards with ten shots.

[M-Tecs]

To quote the late BruceB "when did a group get to be less than 10 shots?"
My CZ452 does it at 50 yards with ten shots.

Are you stating it shoots 1/2" group are 50 or what the OP is asking? The OP is asking at what distance you can put all shots INSIDE a 1/2" circle. To do that you need to shoot a sub .278 group.

[tazman]

Back in the late 1970s, Weatherby was sending a confirmation target with the new rifles they sold as a guarantee of accuracy. Those targets were 3(three) shots.
I believe Cooper rifles does something similar, only they test at 50 yards.

[M-Tecs]

Back in the late 1970s, Weatherby was sending a confirmation target with the new rifles they sold as a guarantee of accuracy. Those targets were 3(three) shots.
I believe Cooper rifles does something similar, only they test at 50 yards.

Weatherby was 3 shots in 1 MOA. Cooper has been doing the same for years with 1/2" group at a 100 yards. That is for centerfires.

[Larry Gibson]

Okay, five 22LR consecutive shots INSIDE a 1/2" circle; at what range?

All my 22s will do that easily at 3' (one yard) just to keep the minimal muzzle blast from tearing up the target...….an absurd answer? Certainly, but not fixating on a specific range left it open to just that...…..:veryconfu

[uscra112]

Heh....to paraphrase Jerry Lee Lewis: "whole lotta braggin' goin' on". [smilie=l:

[rking22]

I took the question to be “what is the max range you can keep all 5 shots (any rimfire) in a group less than .5-caliber, consistently?” And with a pretty much stock rifle.

[LAH]

Like I said my Marlin will at 25. My German rifles will at 50 but not consistently with bulk ammo because of flyers.

[dtknowles]

Are you stating it shoots 1/2" group are 50 or what the OP is asking? The OP is asking at what distance you can put all shots INSIDE a 1/2" circle. To do that you need to shoot a sub .278 group.

You are damn right you have to shoot a sub .278 " group, rarely does a group center perfectly on the point of aim. What the OP is really asking is at what range can you always shoot a perfect score with an X ring that is a 0.056" dot. One click on a typical scope is 0.125" at 50 yards so you are going to be holding off a bit on both windage and elevation. I originally said no problem at 25 yards but I think maybe I was too quick to jump. I still think I can do it quite often at 25 yards but I am not so sure it is as easy as I thought.

[Thundarstick]

"I still think I can do it quite often at 25 yards but I am not so sure it is as easy as I thought."

Words that are TRUE!

I never realized how true this is until I started playing them posted games on Rimfire Central! Sometimes it took 2 boxes of ammo, several targets, and all morning, to make the cut! I had lots and lots of photo proof on RFC until photo bucket screwed everyone over and my pictures where lost!

[Bigslug]

Best I've managed was when I had the opportunity to shoot my old Winchester 52B on a 100 yard indoor range. Prone, shooting coat, sling, and a 16x Unertl, I was able to drop 10 rounds of Eley Team (basically factory seconds or thirds off the Ten-X production line) into 5/8".

My CZ452 has held 1/2" consistently at 50 yards with Wolf Match Target, but it took replacement of the sear to de-creep the trigger.

[Patrick L]

I've been playing around with 2 essentially stock .22LR guns the past 2 summers trying to see just how good I can get them to group. Other than trigger refinement, the guns are factory spec. One is my 35 year old 10/22 Sporter. The other is my 3 year old Ruger American Rimfire. My best efforts with both are right around 1/2 inch. I say right around because I've never actually measured the groups. I save them all in a three ring binder, sorted by ammo. I'm really interested in seeing just how well I can get these average rifles to shoot with good but affordable ammo. So while I have benched some 10X, RWS,SK etc. I wouldn't actually shoot that on a regular basis. I've found two inexpensive rounds that consistently shoot well if I do my part:. CCI Mini Mags, and CCI Blazers.

I further played around with those two rounds by rim sorting and uniforming the bullets wit Paco Kelly's Acc'rizer. The jury is still out on this. It hasn't necessarily made the ammo shoot better, but it may make it more consistent. More testing is scheduled for this summer.

[dtknowles]

I've been playing around with 2 essentially stock .22LR guns the past 2 summers trying to see just how good I can get them to group. Other than trigger refinement, the guns are factory spec. One is my 35 year old 10/22 Sporter. The other is my 3 year old Ruger American Rimfire. My best efforts with both are right around 1/2 inch. I say right around because I've never actually measured the groups. I save them all in a three ring binder, sorted by ammo. I'm really interested in seeing just how well I can get these average rifles to shoot with good but affordable ammo. So while I have benched some 10X, RWS,SK etc. I wouldn't actually shoot that on a regular basis. I've found two inexpensive rounds that consistently shoot well if I do my part:. CCI Mini Mags, and CCI Blazers.

I further played around with those two rounds by rim sorting and uniforming the bullets wit Paco Kelly's Acc'rizer. The jury is still out on this. It hasn't necessarily made the ammo shoot better, but it may make it more consistent. More testing is scheduled for this summer.

1/2 inch at what range, I expect it is not 100 yards

Tim

[Patrick L]

Oh jeesh I'm sorry! Yes, I'm shooting at 50 yards!

[dtknowles]

Oh jeesh I'm sorry! Yes, I'm shooting at 50 yards!

Still nice shooting and believable. It is too bad that 1/2 at 50 with a 22 lr does not turn out to be 1 inch at a 100 very often.

[robg]

my 1022 will do half inch at 25 but my martini international will do that at 50 easily .

[John Boy]

does not turn out to be 1 inch at a 100 very often.
Schuetzen Society - Bath,NY - Aug 16 & 17 ... 22 Rimfire 100yd Bench Rest Groups:
Gary Jacobs - .315
Jim Peck - .426

Beeson Range, Summer Match - 22 RF 100yds Bench Rest
CD Persons - .508
Jim Rowe - .528
Jim Anderson - .555

[dtknowles]

Schuetzen Society - Bath,NY - Aug 16 & 17 ... 22 Rimfire 100yd Bench Rest Groups:
Gary Jacobs - .315
Jim Peck - .426

Beeson Range, Summer Match - 22 RF 100yds Bench Rest
CD Persons - .508
Jim Rowe - .528
Jim Anderson - .555

Yep, that is some short lists of some nice group shooting. Are those aggregates or single groups and are they 10 shots or 5.

Tim

[Larry Gibson]

OP

Are you meaning put 5 shots inside a .5" circle already on the target? Or are you meaning shoot a 5 shot group that will fit inside a .5" circle put around the group after it was shot?

[roysha]

Draw a 1/2" circle and then put 5 shots inside that circle WITHOUT touching the circle.

[Tripplebeards]

I would assume if you can find a gun and load combo that groups 5 inside .5” at 50 yards you’re good to go IMO. I’m sure there are a select few rifle and ammo combos That could do better but probably not consistently. In my opinion there’s just too many variables with factory loaded rimfire loads no matter if they’re expensive or cheap. I’m sure some rifles and ammo can shoot less than half inch groups at 50 yards but I’m guessing not consistently...every time. I’d tell you to work with your gun and buy a bunch of ammo and go out and have fun and shoot a bunch of groups at 50 yards and see what you come up with. Check your action torque settings and lighten your trigger a little bit if you can. A good optic is a must in my opinion. When I took my ultra lux out when I first got it the winter before last I was shooting a 2 x 7 VX1 with a parallax sitting at 150 yards. It was awful fuzzy at 50 yards and I still shot a half inch group with my cheap bulk ammo. The cheap $40 Tasco 3 x 9 mill dot I replaced it with sure is a lot crisper but I bet you if I had a higher powered scope on it that would go to 14 or 16 X it gives me the confidence of a zoomed up clear picture to help tighten my groups. I can see what I’m aiming at them.


I’m sure the really expensive target guns will do it with expensive ammo at 100 yards but most of us don’t have those. If it were me I’d be happy to shoot that tight at half to 3/4 the distance. I just want to be minute of squirrel head. I have a few centerfire rifle’s that’ll do that at 200 yards all day long but rimfires are a whole different game.

[Larry Gibson]

Draw a 1/2" circle and then put 5 shots inside that circle WITHOUT touching the circle.

That certainly changes the dynamics as doing so requires not only precision but accuracy also.

[ACC]

At what range will your, more or less out of the box gun, shoot into a 1/2" circle? Not a 1/2" group, but all of the shots, (at least 5 consecutive) INSIDE a 1/2" circle. A few minor modifications, such as trigger adjustment/change, bedding, etc. are acceptable for this conversation but I'm really not interested in full blown custom built guns. Stock target rifles and "high end" rifles are included in my "box" gun definition as long as they are that, stock.

I have found a new to me, game, that is a great deal of fun to shoot and am curious as what you folks have for rifle/ammo combinations that will meet the 1/2" criteria.

My ranch rifle with hard cast bullets in 7.62X39 will do 1.5 inches at 100 yards. With good handloads and jacketed bullets in the 125 range will do about .5 to .4 inches at 100 yards.

ACC

[wildwilly501]

I know its the internet but I think some people need to get off the computer and go shoot.All shots inside 1/2 " not touching the outside circle at fifty yards is very very hard not 1/2 group ctc there are a lot more guns that won't do it then there are that will.And your not doing it with bulk ammo.And one fluke group doesn't make an average.

[Larry Gibson]

Draw a 1/2" circle and then put 5 shots inside that circle WITHOUT touching the circle.

That is a very difficult quest, especially if talking 50+ yards with any 22 LR. Apparently, many don't appreciate of understand the difference between "precision" and "accuracy" or how this quest applies to both.

[tazman]

As I understand the definitions as applied to rifle shooting.
Precision is the ability to put bullets into a very small group repeatedly and on demand.
Accuracy is the ability to put that group where you want it.

[Larry Gibson]

Correct tazman and that combines to make this quest quite difficult, especially at 50 yards...

[M-Tecs]

To meet the OP's criteria each and ever shot has to be within plus or minus 1/8" of the absolute dead center for both POI and group size. Even at 25 yards with the best ammo and equipment (which I have) I don't believe I would claim I can do it consistently.

On the other hand I am more than willing to take a bet for anyone that claims they can. Any takers for say $100 per group for 5 groups at 50 yards? Even at 25 yard that's going to be a safe bet except for a few world class shooters with world class equipment.

[LAH]

To meet the OP's criteria each and ever shot has to be within plus or minus 1/8" of the absolute dead center for both POI and group size. Even at 25 yards with the best ammo and equipment (which I have) I don't believe I would claim I can do it consistently.

On the other hand I am more than willing to take a bet for anyone that claims they can. Any takers for say $100 per group for 5 groups at 50 yards? Even at 25 yard that's going to be a safe bet except for a few world class shooters with world class equipment.

The voice of sanity.

[Tripplebeards]

MTecs You’re going to get rich off betting.

[M-Tecs]

MTecs You’re going to get rich off betting.

I wish. Strange thing is most people get strangely quiet will they have to back it up with money. I have won three $100 bets on 1,000 yard shots or should I say lack of shots.

[rking22]

It gets even more interesting, So a perfect score on a .056 10 ring.... every time, don’t know about that, nobody wins every match. The 50 ft small bore target has a dot for 10 ring, not sure of dia. I shot consistent clean targets, at 50 ft indoors and with a real target rifle and top shelf ammo. But there was the occasional day that I blew it and dropped a shot. Now to do that with a stock factory Sporter, nope not happening. Not for 5 groups in a row, a couple out of 5 possibly. Would be an interesting competition. Pick your distance shoot your 5, on 5 separate bulls with the dot. Clean it and move on, drop one and eliminated. Strategy, precision, repeatability. I can’t do it every time at 25 yards, but I would like to see if I can do it more consistently than others, that’s competition. Interesting concept, quite interesting.

[dtknowles]

It gets even more interesting, So a perfect score on a .056 10 ring.... every time, don’t know about that, nobody wins every match. The 50 ft small bore target has a dot for 10 ring, not sure of dia. I shot consistent clean targets, at 50 ft indoors and with a real target rifle and top shelf ammo. But there was the occasional day that I blew it and dropped a shot. Now to do that with a stock factory Sporter, nope not happening. Not for 5 groups in a row, a couple out of 5 possibly. Would be an interesting competition. Pick your distance shoot your 5, on 5 separate bulls with the dot. Clean it and move on, drop one and eliminated. Strategy, precision, repeatability. I can’t do it every time at 25 yards, but I would like to see if I can do it more consistently than others, that’s competition. Interesting concept, quite interesting.

In high school we used to shoot 50 ft. indoor 4 position small bore. I was a bad day if I did not shoot a perfect prone target. We used the A-17 target, the 10 ring was 0.150" in diameter. That means not quite a half inch, that is 0.59" at 50 ft. almost every time for 10 shots with a three pound trigger, prone with iron (peep) sights. We used Win or Rem standard velocity ammo, not premium.

With the same gun, premium ammo, a scope and my bench rest supports and only 5 shots per circle I am sure I can do better on a calm day. I think 25 yards is do able. The 9 ring on the A-17 target is 0.483" close enough for a go. If 17 thousandths of an inch make a difference I say close enough. Sadly the range was flooded this week end, no shooting.

This target look familiar to anyone?

https://s3.amazonaws.com/cdn.creedmoorsports.com/images/thumb/A17_target.jpg


Tim

[M-Tecs]

When scoring normal targets if the bullet touches the line you get the higher value. Per the OP all shots must be inside the 1/2" circle. The group can not touch the line. Group has to be less than .278" center to center if it is perfectly centered. If not perfectly centered the group has to be smaller.

[Larry Gibson]

When scoring normal targets if the bullet touches the line you get the higher value. Per the OP all shots must be inside the 1/2" circle. The group can not touch the line. Group has to be less than .278" center to center if it is perfectly centered. If not perfectly centered the group has to be smaller.

…..and at 50 yards with a sporter and even the best of ammunition that would be a real challenge....just to do it once let alone consistently...….

Just using 50 yards for a range example because it would be a challenge. We can shrink it to a shorter and shorter range until we can do it but what's the challenge in that?

[Tripplebeards]

I guess the better question is what rifles and ammo are capable of consistently shooting groups that tight at 50 yards and even a 100 yards? I’m sure somebody can do it once or twice just like it stated but I’d like to see if there’s any rifles and ammo combos that could do it consistently at 100 yards. And I’m not talking a person I’m talking a gun put in a ransom rest or vise like the factory dose to check ammo...is it even possible? I realize there’s just too many variables with the 22 LR. And also, if so, what is the cost and the what kind of rifle and ammo? That’s why I started shooting 22 WMR. It shoots Sub MOA pretty consistently with two different types of ammo and it’s just a cheap production gun I spent all of $200 on. I would assume without a doubt it’s more on the ammo than the gun when it comes to 22 LR.

[John Boy]

Are those aggregates or single groups and are they 10 shots or 5.5 shot groups

[rking22]

That target is what we called the NRA target, I am referring to the ISU target. It had a dot for the 10 ring and 2 sighted bulls. I think the dot was 1 mm but need to look that up. As an 18 year old I could reasonably expect to clean that NRA target in all but standing. Several 97s offhand but I was inconsistent. Was shooting my FWB300 yesterday evening at a magnetic silliwettee box at 25 yards. After a bit I hung a bull to adjust zero, dang I suck now! Offhand group would not have held the black. Out of shape old guy, cold and no shooting jacket,, but it was fun.

Looked up the USAS 50 target that we used in 3 position. 10 ring was .76mm. (.0299”)

Back on topic, I would like to see if our club would like to try a game like this. Like, horse, draw for a starting distance. Say 25 yards, anyone miss the 1mm dot is eliminated. Move to 30 yards, them 40 and so on. Suspect it would end before 40 yards! Could make a knock down metal with a .500 drilled hole for each competitor, shoot one at a time, like trap, till either 5 shots or their target knocked is knocked over. Then shift back, sounds fun! Would even be fun for spectators,.... tormentors

[rking22]

Thinking more along that line, yeah I know, bad idea. Could be like chunk gun shooting, bring your own target with your chosen “mark” for sighting. At entry use go/no go gage to certify the target for diameter and foot only to the front. Any shot touching the 1/2 inch ring would tip the target, ending your competition for that round. Shoulder to shoulder, miss and out, last target standing after 5 shots wins. Never going to find the answer without testing :)

[Tripplebeards]

I went out to do a little squirrel hunting today and they didn’t cooperate. I wanted to test the CCI hi shock segmented on them. The snow is almost a foot deep and I’ve been sick for a week so I didn’t go as far as I could’ve looking for squirrels that probably weren’t out anyways. I sat in my deer shack for a couple hours and did the lazy thing.lol I then decided to shoot out some pieces of leaves sticking out of the snow at 50 yards with the high shocks. Was curious to see if they were going to hit the same POA is the stingers that I have sighted in dead center at 50 yards. I shot at the tip of a leaf twice and could see I was a little bit to the right. The third shot nailed it. I know I was wiggling around to. So I decided to go to the range on the way home and try it again on paper. I shot at 50 yards and forgot I only like four bullets fly because I was shooting the breeze with some guy with an AR about coyote hunting. Once I got my target and realized I only shot four times I figured I would shoot another group of four to keep it fair. The Quik Shoks shoots just as tight as the stingers it seems but a little low and right at 50 yards. I was once again shocked that it grouped halfway decent with this ammo like the stingers since every post that I’ve read say that stingers in high shocks don’t group worth a darn and CZ’s or any rifles for that matter. Even after watching several YouTube videos of people shooting them with crummy groups... But most of those guys on YouTube never shot groups under half inches with other ammos to begin with. I have to say at 50 yards they’re both minute of squirrel head if I click up one and left one. Before I just my scope I’m going to try the same on a few squirrels at close range to see what it does or does not do. I did shoot through four sheets of really thin roof flashing that someone threw on my land before I bought it at close range. The first bullet never started expanding until the last piece of sheet metal and made an exit hole diameter maybe three times the entrance hole. Second bullet a shot segmented on the last piece when it exited. Just two holes and not three though. It made one big exit hole and a little dented pin hole a half inch away from the main exit. I wonder if it takes skin,meat, and bone to open up quicker?

https://i.imgur.com/Otn9YhX.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/b8ATyc7.jpg

And I honestly know I wasn’t taking my time and holding as still as I could with this ammo and groups, i’m sure it would do even better off a rock solid rest.


These definitely aren’t inside a half inch circle, but aren’t target ammo either.

[Forrest r]

Shooting groups are meaningless.

Grab a 50yd benchrest target and see just how many 10's you can hit in a row, a row ='s 5 targets. The 10 ring is just under 1/4". Like I said in my 1st post try hitting 9's or better, the 9 ring is 1/2".

In the rimfire br world 1/2" @ 50yds means you need to get better equipment/ammo, 9's just don't cut it.

In the real world everyone with their favorite beater and either Walmart bulk pack or mini-mags can shoot 1/2" groups all day long when they do their part. Toss a 50yd br target up and start keeping score and things change real fast.

[M-Tecs]

In the real world everyone with their favorite beater and either Walmart bulk pack or mini-mags can shoot 1/2" groups all day long when they do their part. Toss a 50yd br target up and start keeping score and things change real fast.

Add some real money in the form of bets and they become about as common as unicorns.

[Traffer]

How far can I put all shots into a 1/2" circle? Are you kidding? I couldn't do it at 10 feet.

[Forrest r]

How far can I put all shots into a 1/2" circle? Are you kidding? I couldn't do it at 10 feet.

Na, that's a different game.

You try to hit that little dot (x-ring) at 10 meters.
https://i.imgur.com/PL4LA2S.jpg

It's best to have shooting glasses, heavy shooting coats, sticky shooting gloves and shooting boots that lace up high enough to support your ankles when trying to hit that dot offhand with 1 of these.
https://i.imgur.com/lcbA36z.jpg

[Wild Bill 7]

Has anyone tried Paco Kelly's accuracy tool on their 22 rf rifles? Inquiring minds want to know. LOL

[Larry Gibson]

I have tested and used a Paco Kelly Accurizer and a Waltz die for the last 14 years.

As to increasing the precision [tightening groups] of 22/LR ammunition I've found neither tool will increase the precision of top end match 22LR. Use of the tool can be beneficial to precision with the medium priced "match" ammunition. It really improves the precision of some Winchester "Match" [White Box] I have and also gives a bit of improvement to CCIs "Green Box" match 22LR. The use of the tool will many times be most beneficial to bulk 22LR as it doesn't always reduce the size of most shots but most often eliminates the fliers. You have to do some experimenting on how much modification/swaging gives the best results. I don't use a mallet with the Paco Tool but prefer to use a press. I use the Lee hand press with the Waltz die.

One of the biggest improvements for me is increasing the terminal effect. Using the "Nasty Nose" or HP tool can really increase the terminal effect on small game/vermin. You have to see or hear [the "whop" of the bullet hitting a small ground squirrel] to believe just how much it increases the terminal effect. CCI Blazer is my favorite to do either on. The soft plain lead bullet is devastating on squirrels and rabbits. I also re-HP most bulk copper coated 22LR HP HVs [Federals and Winchesters] swaging the bullet to a uniform .225 and opening the HP to the max just before the copper coating begins to split. They still feed fine out of the magazines in my bolt actions, my 10/22s, my M261 in my AR and in my semi-auto handguns.

Keep in mind that either tool will not make a silk purse out of a sow's ear because some of the bulk 22LR ammunition that was produced during the Obama shortage years is beyond help.

Some modified [before and after] with the Paco Kelly Accurizer;

255596

Some CCI Blazer modified [before and after] with the Waltz die to HPs with small HP, medium HP and large HP;

255597

[Traffer]

I have tested and used a Paco Kelly Accurizer and a Waltz die for the last 14 years.

As to increasing the precision [tightening groups] of 22/LR ammunition I've found neither tool will increase the precision of top end match 22LR. Use of the tool can be beneficial to precision with the medium priced "match" ammunition. It really improves the precision of some Winchester "Match" [White Box] I have and also gives a bit of improvement to CCIs "Green Box" match 22LR. The use of the tool will many times be most beneficial to bulk 22LR as it doesn't always reduce the size of most shots but most often eliminates the fliers. You have to do some experimenting on how much modification/swaging gives the best results. I don't use a mallet with the Paco Tool but prefer to use a press. I use the Lee hand press with the Waltz die.

One of the biggest improvements for me is increasing the terminal effect. Using the "Nasty Nose" or HP tool can really increase the terminal effect on small game/vermin. You have to see or hear [the "whop" of the bullet hitting a small ground squirrel] to believe just how much it increases the terminal effect. CCI Blazer is my favorite to do either on. The soft plain lead bullet is devastating on squirrels and rabbits. I also re-HP most bulk copper coated 22LR HP HVs [Federals and Winchesters] swaging the bullet to a uniform .225 and opening the HP to the max just before the copper coating begins to split. They still feed fine out of the magazines in my bolt actions, my 10/22s, my M261 in my AR and in my semi-auto handguns.

Keep in mind that either tool will not make a silk purse out of a sow's ear because some of the bulk 22LR ammunition that was produced during the Obama shortage years is beyond help.

Some modified [before and after] with the Paco Kelly Accurizer;

255596

Some CCI Blazer modified [before and after] with the Waltz die to HPs with small HP, medium HP and large HP;

255597

I have been trying to reload match grade 22lr...Haven't tested but I am sure I am no where near there yet. Getting the bullet (powder coated then swaged) to good dimensions but still lots of refinement in other areas. Especially crimping. Question: Have you noticed a difference in the hardness of bullets?
I started out making them harder (around 10 bhn) but since seeing this picture I have opted to go back to soft lead because of the obturation of base to rifling. Notice how the hollow base expanded the sides of the bullet to fill the rifling:
255601

[lefty o]

I have been trying to reload match grade 22lr...Haven't tested but I am sure I am no where near there yet. Getting the bullet (powder coated then swaged) to good dimensions but still lots of refinement in other areas. Especially crimping. Question: Have you noticed a difference in the hardness of bullets?
I started out making them harder (around 10 bhn) but since seeing this picture I have opted to go back to soft lead because of the obturation of base to rifling. Notice how the hollow base expanded the sides of the bullet to fill the rifling:
255601

rimfire bullets are all under 1% antimony. almost but not quite dead soft.

[Tripplebeards]

And I would assume the alloy hardness must vary from lot to lot as well. The CCI stingers that I posted a picture of with my nice tight little group at 50 yards the first time I tried it I went out and tried on a couple of squirrels and the bullets zipped through like full metal jacket‘s. I’ve read hundreds of posts that they blow things apart. Not mine, I couldn’t even see the entrance hole in the head of a squirrel I shot at 12 to 15 yards. They’re accurate though, as long as I hit them in the head we’re good.

[Larry Gibson]

rimfire bullets are all under 1% antimony. almost but not quite dead soft.

No, not all are "dead soft"....apparently. When HP or Nasty Nosing I have found some that were very hard. One lot of CCI CB caps that are so hard the bullet gets pushed into the case instead of swaging...… I have found some of the cheaper copper plated 22LRs that seem to have HT'd the bullets during the copper plating process(?). These are the HV type and the nose on some will crack and split when HP'd.

[lefty o]

yes it is copper plating, and yes those will split as the copper itself cracks and splits apart as the lead is bonded to it.