Not To Be Played With

[ACC]

Since I joined this forum, I have seen posts from folks that want to have .357 Magnum Charges in .38 Special casings. In the two posts I remember, some of the long time members explained that this is a bad way to go.

Well today I had the experience I wish everyone who plays games with pressure could have. Not the getting hurt part, but the suffering part.

Let me explain.

This weekend here in San Antonio we had a gun show. What I normally do is go to the gun show, then to the range for some target practice and that is what I did today. There were only two of us on the range. Myself and a young (25 or so) lady. As I got ready to shoot I heard pow, pow ,BOOM, and then a scream of pain.

I dropped my gun on the table and ran over to her. It seemed that her gun, an airlite S&W (I think) had blown up. It took the better parts of two fingers and heavily damaged the rest on her left hand and injured her right hand pretty badly.

Being certified Wilderness First Aid, I yelled at the RSO, and I started first-aid, and he called Bexar County EMS. I rode in the ambulance with her and meet my wife at the closest hospital.

We found out that her parents live in Amarillo and if you know Texas, that is an 8 hour drive (or more) to San Antonio from there. She had come down here to go to nursing school. She had just graduated and was to start her new job Monday. I don't think she will make it.

We stayed at the Hospital till her parents called and said they would be there in a couple of hours as they just hit Waco. When we left she was still in surgery.

Well she will live, but they had to amputate the two really bad fingers, and she has lost a lot of feeling in her left hand. The doctors think her right hand will heal with no lost of function.

Turns out she bought the gun last week, and went into a local gun store and asked for the most powerful .38 Special bullets they had. The clerk gave her some Buffalo Bore 158 gr. +P+ loads. I wish He would have asked some questions before selling her the ammo.

These were way too high pressure for this gun according to the RSO. He said it looked like the first two shots bulged the aluminum cylinder and the last one was too much and it came apart.

I applaud the members who warn some of the newer members who wish to play with the pressure snake. Pressure is not a thing to play or joke around with. It will eventually bite you. It can kill, maim, or worse. How would we feel if we loaded some really hot loads that is OK for our gun, but our twenty one year old granddaughter comes in and grabs some of grandpa's ammo, and the gun blows up blinding or killing her?

Like one of the seasoned members said. If you want magnum pressures get a magnum gun.

Please pray for this poor girl. Her name is Hanna.

I am going home to be sick.

Andrew
ACC

[richhodg66]

I'm sorry for her. Not everybody has the benefit of growing up around good mentors where firearms are concerned like I did.

Quite frankly, I never have understood "I want the most powerful thing I can get" mentality. It rarely gives any kind of advantage and usually just makes things harder or more expensive.

[bikerbeans]

Sad day.

BB

[Walks]

Sorry to hear of the Young Ladies terrible misfortune.
In the 12+years I worked in Gun Stores, I always asked what ammo the Gun was to be used in.

I remember a few instances where people didn't listen. But only one as bad as you describe.
That was one Dove Hunter with a 28ga O/U and the other a 20ga pump. Both very experienced Hunters, Reloaders and Clay Bird Shooters.
NEVER heard a decent explanation, as to how a red 28ga shell got into a 20ga Gun that shot yellow shells.
Twenty years a Jeweler and his left thumb just gone.

My Heart goes out to her. Prayers too.

I gave up the .38Spl case loaded with the Thompson Gas Check bullet seated out to allow for more case capacity. Just as soon as I could buy sufficient .357Mag cases. About 40+yrs ago.
Same with .38-44 loads. I load one box a Year and shoot them the same day.

With a Colt Cobra and a old M38 in My Gun Safe, I can't afford to leave hot ammo behind when I pass on.

[ThomR]

As someone who has lost part of a finger, I wouldn't wish losing even part of a finger on anyone.
I hope she is able to get over the issue emotionally and is able to get back to shooting.

[Texas by God]

+p+ factory ammo should not even exist in my opinion. Will it magically kill the bad guy deader? No, but it will maim the shooter for life if it gets in the wrong gun. Attorneys will be and should be called. My prayers are with the young lady and I hope she can heal enough to help others as she intended.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[Skipper]

He said it looked like the first two shots bulged the aluminum cylinder
The Airlite cylinders are either titanium or stainless.
On a different note...as a retired Fire Captain/Emt, I would like to give ACC a big pat on the back. There are way too many people out there that would reach for a cell phone camera rather than perform immediate and effective aid.
Hopefully the young lady can put her life back together in time.

[Petander]

Absolutely horrible... luck? There should not be room for "luck" in these scenarios.

I'm baking 38 Special bullets right now,reading this on smartphone in a shed. Thinking ammo colour coding.

Buffalo Bore and other +p makers are very clear with their instructions. But that does not help with the fact that we have both extremely weak new guns and extremely potent new ammo with the same headstamp. Both available from the same gun shops.

I feel sorry for her,having had no training or instruction...

[Skipper]

+p+ factory ammo should not even exist in my opinion

Buffalo Bore doesn't list +P+ 38 special as one of their products.

[jeepyj]

My heart goes out to the young lady. I would believe when she asked for the most powerful, in her mind it was a test of herself not even remotely imagining that if it fit into the cylinder it could blow up in her hand. Thank you for the reminder to watch, help, educate when ever we can and pray for a speedy, full recovery for this special young lady.

[jonp]

Buffalo Bore doesn't list +P+ 38 special as one of their products.

+P+ has no real meaning but is used as a marketing ploy. Essentially from what I can tell it's pretty much "more than +P" with no other guidance. Why would you need that? I usually tell people to not try and make a gun do what it isn't designed for. If you want 357Mag velocity then get a 357Mag. Her experience is why I leave higher pressure pistol loads to my Blackhawks and don't freewheel where others have not gone. I just don't have the equipment to warn me of coming problems. In fairness to Buffalo Bore, they are quite clear about their ammunition and what it is designed to be shot in.

Unfortunately in regards to the store clerk who sold her the ammo, it's not up to him to tell a customer what they can and can't buy but the days of knowledgeable clerks who would inquire what type of gun that was going into are coming to an end. He probably didn't know anymore than she did or less. I once went into a store to get a box of ammunition for a 308 742 Rem Woodsmaster. I told him what it was for and he said all he had was 308 Winchester and no way could I shoot that in a 308 Remington rifle with the other commando leaning on the counter shaking his head and laughing at the idiot kid who didn't know anything.

I doubt there are any on this sight who would not ask these questions and then strongly discourage the buying of said ammunition as unsuitable for the intended gun or just outright refuse. It has made me strongly consider when I retire getting a job in a gun store. I don't know much about guns and ammo but I know enough to ask questions or find the answer if I don't know.

As to pushing the pressure curve and why? Same reason you have gun store commando's that know everything and are ready to tell you.
"The 556 is far superior to the 223. The 223 isn't good for anything"
"You know how much velocity your going to lose (gain) with a 16in vs 18in barrel? Let me pontificate"
"Everyone knows the wound cavity from a 44 Mag at 1473fps using X brand of ammo is x inches larger than 1389fps with that other stuff"
"Cast for self defense or hunting? Just won't work, it will destroy your gun, what's wrong with you..blah blah blah"
"45LC? That's no good for anything"
"Hunt whitetail with a 30-30? Who would do something stupid like that, a 30-30 is way underpowered for doing that"

I'm glad she will live but prayers for her and what happened. It's too bad. An honest mistake on her part most likely with little experience and just doing what someone recommended has changed her life forever. Kudo's to you for being on the spot and knowing what to do.

It's also a reminder that when at a gun store or especially a range keep your eyes and ears open. If you see or hear something and it is not just silly but could be dangerous say and do something. Next time it could be you not thinking and doing something that gets stopped in time by someone else.

[rancher1913]

this is why I dont have any 38 special guns, only 357 magnum guns. dont want the wife or kids to get into trouble grabbing the wrong ammo.

[Thundarstick]

I thought those guns also had warnings in their instruction book about using such ammo? It's a sad thing, but as some one else pointed out, +P, and +P+ ammo shouldn't even exist. 45 LC, 45-70, and 32H&R may be fine in your Ruger, but will blow up your H&R, SAA, or Trapdoor.
I remember in my CC class an octogenarian lady showed up with a LCR 38 and the some +P 158gr ammo. The first shot cut leaves out of the trees and took all the skin off the top of her right thumb!

[Jedman]

Sorry to hear that happened. Anyone's hands are precious to your ability to most everything, she will heal but will be handicapped forever. Very sad.

Jedman

[richhodg66]

I hope this experience doesn't sour this young lady's opinions on gun ownership and shooting, though it may well do that. Seems there are quite few people in the health care occupations who are pro 2nd amendment, hope we didn't lose one.

[pworley1]

She was lucky that you were there.

[Hickory]

I see a lawsuit in the future against the guy who sold her the ammunition, but a lawsuit won't erase the trauma or replace the damage to her hand.

[jonp]

I see a lawsuit in the future against the guy who sold her the ammunition, but a lawsuit won't erase the trauma or replace the damage to her hand.

I hope not. Personal responsibility should be upmost in everyone's mind. It's not up to someone else to save me from myself I think. Much like Sandy Hook and a few parents suing Bushmaster for making the gun instead of focusing on the criminal if some in Government get their way every aspect of our lives will be controlled "for our own good".

[georgerkahn]

ACC - Thank you for "being there" and going to the aid of this young lady in most severe distress! As others have already suggested, many no doubt would have rung 9-1-1 at most. As I (am also a retired) EMT, I keep a fairly OCD-directed first aid kit in my truck -- but even with this, the proper (medical) care indeed would have been quite the challenge, not to even consider the psychological addressing her.
My thoughts, too, think re lots of "what's and what-if's", but -- to my experiences -- one most sadly cannot "rewind the videotape of life", as we used to say. I just, again, wish to thank you for your action and response at the scene; for posting -- the "safety warning"; and to add that this unknown to me young lady and her best results are in my thoughts and prayers.
I had been at ranges (two indoor, and two outdoor) where there were firearm blow-ups through the years, and the "worst" was a fellow named Jim W. who didn't bother to measure his powder with much care, and a gorgeous Colt revolver disintegrated. His right thumb -- no exaggeration -- swelled to almost the diameter of a banana, and he complained of numbness/tingling in hand for months -- but pretty much had a full recovery.
geo

[Thumbcocker]

Sad day for the young lady. Kudos to ACC for stepping up and taking action.

[kens]

I just looked up Buffalo Bore ammo.
They do list a .38spl 158gr @ 1250fps. !!
Holy smokes, what are they doing?
I am not buying anything from buffalo bore.
She is fortunate you were there to assist.

[lightman]

Thats really sad. The Young Lady had a bright and promising future ahead of Her. I hope She recovers enough to continue Her career in Nursing. I also hope She will continue to shoot. It was fortunate that you were there to help and really good of you to ride with Her to the hospital.

Like most of you, I'm a conservative reloader and most of my friends are. I agree with the others, if you want magnum velocities, buy a magnum. Hot rodding a 38 is leaving a trap for someone else.

I also agree with the posters that say to forget the lawsuit. The employee at the gun shop sold the young Lady what she ask for. Maybe he should have ask questions? Maybe the shop owner should have provided some training for his employees? Maybe Buffalo should have warnings on their boxes? (maybe they do?)

[Hickok]

So sad in many ways. Dang it, I really am sorry to hear about this girl getting maimed in this incident.

[375supermag]

Hi...
I fully agree with the statements made about store clerks not being properly trained.
My son in law( nice enough guy but not particularly educated about firearms) went into Walmart a couple of years ago to buy ammunition for my daughter's 357Mag revolver.
The idiot clerk sold him a box of .357Sig ammunition. They couldn't understand why it wouldn't chamber in her revolver.
Of course, they couldn't return it to the store so I now have a box of .357Sig ammunition that I have no use for.

ned

[Battis]

I have a S&W Airweight .38 that I load with +P. Well, I used to load with +P. After reading this post, I'm going back to regular .38SP. I'll use the +P in my .357.
Thanks for posting.

[sparky45]

She most definitely should contact a Lawyer to at least recover her Medical bills AND pain and suffering. She IS going to be scarred for life, especially emotionally. The Lawyer WON'T advise to sue the clerk, most likely go for the store and possibly the ammo maker.

[osteodoc08]

ACC, my hats off to you sir. You went above and beyond in this scenario.

The reality is, this poor woman had a bright future in nursing and while she may return to nursing, will be limited.

If the gun was rated “+P” there should have been no kaboom. The firearm and ammo will need to be forensically tested. Perhaps there was a cylinder issue unaware to anyone. Perhaps the ammo was loaded incorrectly. I wish Hanna a speedy recovery and return to work. Life will never be the same for even. Even the pleasure of running her infants hair through her fingers.

[Petander]

Yes she was very lucky to have someone like ACC around. My hat is off,too.

I shoot alone quite a lot in winter. People take a winter break,I don't. Just makes you think how to handle something like that when you're all alone in an outside range deep in the woods,where only a tractor can get. And my 33" wheel truck.

Accidents can snd do happen even if you don't do anything wrong. Add to that,we are people. We make mistakes.

[Todd N.]

Stories like this are so sad no matter how they happened. Fortunately ACC was there to provide skilled first aid and emotional support. She was very fortunate in that respect.

Our hobby is one filled with hazards. Accidents happen. We've all seen or heard of accidents and incidents relating to improperly loaded ammunition, poorly maintained firearms, cartridges chambered in the wrong gun, and more. And sometimes bad things happen for no earthly reason.

Why have some people on this thread gotten to point of condemning +P and +P+ ammo? Is there nothing in your understanding of this sport that accounts for "Personal Liability"? Safe enjoyment of the shooting sports necessitates knowledge of guns, ammunition, gun handling, and shooting practices. To claim that the ammo is at fault is doing our sport an injustice.

As an example...
I shoot a Pedersoli 1874 Sharps Rifle in .45-70. I also have a couple of Marlins chambered in that cartridge. They all are safe with the ammo I load. But the ammo I load would DESTROY a Trapdoor Springfield with 1 shot. Therefore, my Trapdoor hangs on the wall as a decoration, not a shooter. Does my use of heavy-loaded .45-70 mean I am a bad person or irresponsible? No.

What happened to this young woman is heartbreaking. She will carry physical and emotional scars for the remainder of her life.

But the only liability here is hers. As ACC related the story, SHE told the store clerk precisely what performance level she wanted in the ammo she would buy. None of us were at the store listening when she bought her ammo so criticizing the clerk is totally inappropriate. This had nothing to do with the power, quality or safety of the ammo. This is solely about knowledge, training and the safe practice of a dangerous hobby.
These are things we all need to keep in mind.

[Ed K]

First off good job ACC!

Going to redouble efforts here to be safe. For example a big 45 Colt fan here but flat out refuse to load anything over SAAMI pressure without an OAL that is way oversize for a Colt/clone.

If it is really true that the clerk/store/manufacturers are liable then maybe there is a valid argument that firearms/chainsaws/etc. should not even be offered for sale in the USA.

[M-Tecs]

Something isn't adding up unless it was an aluminum cylinder pre-37 Chief Special Airweight manufactured in the 50's.

https://thatweirdgunguy.com/2015/09/06/smith-and-wesson-model-37-airweight/

https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/gun-review-smith-wesson-model-12-38-special/

All the current S&W 38's are rated for 38 +P ammunition including both the Airweight titanium and stainless steel cylinder guns. Buffalo Bore does not offer a +P+ 38 load.

Whatever the cause it is tragic.

It's was a sad situation without a doubt. So are the claims by some here that +P and +P+ ammo should not exist. Both have their place and they are perfectly safe when used properly.

The following is quoted directly from a Smith & Wesson owner's manual printed in 1993:

Revolvers in which .38 Special +P ammunition can be used:
J frames - Models 60-4 (full underlug barrel only), 60-7, 60-8, 640, 649-2
K frames - Models 10, 13, 14, 15, 19, 64, 65, 66, 67
L frames - Models 581, 586, 681, 686
N frames - Models 27, 28, 627

Here is S&W's warning about +P ammunition -

"Plus P" (+P) ammunition generates pressures significantly in excess of the pressures associated with standard .38 Special ammunition. Such Pressures may affect the wear characteristics or exceed the margin of safety built into many revolvers and could therefore be DANGEROUS.

"Plus P" (+P) ammunition should not be used in medium (K frame) revolvers manufactured prior to 1958. Such pre-1958 medium (K frame) revolvers can be identified by the absence of a Model Number stamped inside the yoke cut of the frame (i.e. the area of the frame exposed when the cylinder is in the open position).

The "Plus-P-Plus" (+P+) marking on ammunition merely designates that it exceed established industry standards, but the designation does not represent defined pessure limits and therefore such ammunition may vary significantly as to the pressures generated. "Plus-P-Plus" (+P+) ammunition is not recommended for use in Smith & Wesson firearms.

The "Plus-P-Plus" (+P+) ammo to my understanding was a solution to PD's requiring officers to use 38 ammo in their 357 Revolvers' in the 70's. Same for the todays factory loading of +P+ 9mm ammo.

On a side note you can get the S&W Airweight in 357 Ma. with either a SS cylinder or a titanium cylinder. They are really loud and the recoil is sharp. My titanium cylinder S&W 38 is rated for +P and I will continue carry it with +P.

https://www.smith-wesson.com/firearms/model-360-357-magnum38-sw-special-p

https://www.smith-wesson.com/firearms/model-360-pd

[osteodoc08]

Guys, we cannot compared handloaded ammo to factory produced ammo. She had factory ammo. Boutique ammo but factory ammo still the same.

[ACC]

The Airlite cylinders are either titanium or stainless.
On a different note...as a retired Fire Captain/Emt, I would like to give ACC a big pat on the back. There are way too many people out there that would reach for a cell phone camera rather than perform immediate and effective aid.
Hopefully the young lady can put her life back together in time.

I have to be honest. I really don't know what gun it was. I was just going by what the RSO said. The reason I am Certified to teach Wilderness First Aid is that I help run the rifle range at our local Scout camp and they require you to have the training.

ACC

[ACC]

Buffalo Bore doesn't list +P+ 38 special as one of their products.

I think it is just +P. My typing when I am upset is worse than normal. Sorry. I do know it was Buffalo Bore.

ACC

[popper]

Hopefully it wasn't a OLD family pistol.

[ACC]

Guys, my wife and I are also visitation pastors of our church so we will be visiting her as often as possible. Keep me and the Mrs. in pray that God will give us the right words to say.

Andrew

[Mytmousemalibu]

That is a real shame that happened on many levels. Thank you for being there for her and seeing this young lady through ACC. Life-altering events like that usually leave some deep scars and that can be tough to get through. I hope she recovers the best she can and hope she doesn't forever have disdain for firearms. I couldn't blame her if she did though.

I would be very interested in the rest of that box of ammo to see if it had anything wrong with it or if it was the gun. Unless it was an old and exceedingly rare S&W that could have had a aluminum cylinder (those were recalled by S&W) like a Aircrewman, I doubt it was aluminum. Smith even made the actual aluminum cylinder guns with intent of only special low pressure ammo was to be use in them which stilll proved to be too weak and thus recalled. They are uncommon and most left are in collections now.

All modern Airweight J-frames are +P rated. My daily carry is a 442 Airweight aluminum frame but clearly marked +P on the barrel. Smith for a long time now has only used stainless or carbon steel and titanium for their cylinders. My 442 is carbon steel with a melonite finish. I would hedge by bets this unfortunate gal was victim to a double charge or some ammo related problem. Awful that it happened no matter the cause.

[Thundarstick]

Why have some people on this thread gotten to point of condemning +P and +P+ ammo?

But the only liability here is hers. As ACC related the story, SHE told the store clerk precisely what performance level she wanted in the ammo she would buy. This had nothing to do with the power, quality or safety of the ammo. This is solely about knowledge, training and the safe practice of a dangerous hobby.
These are things we all need to keep in mind.

I wish to"walk back"my previous condemnation of the ammo, and totally agree that the one using the firearm is completely responsible for unfortunate incidents like this. Just like if we're a reloader we are responsible for our reloads.

You know you can go out and buy a 200 hp motorcycle, take a simple test, then go out and kill yourself on it! It's your responsibility to learn to ride and control that kind of power if you choose, if you don't, it's on you. We had a young man, father of two, killed in late summer on a liter bike. He passed the basic rider course, bought an R1. A week later a truck pulled out from Tractor Supply parking lot onto a 35mph street and the motorcycle impacted the front quarter of the truck so hard that debris where ejected 100 feet backwards! It's estimated he was going in excess of 90mph at impact! These motorcycles can go from 35 to over 90 in a matter of seconds! Poor knowledge, bad judgment, and a powerful bike coast him his life.

I worked with a nurse that lost 3/4s of a hand in a lawnmower accident and was a fine nurse!

[MaryB]

I had a guy shooting hand loads in his AR-15 in the lane next to me. We have no dividers, he was 4 feet from me. We talked a bit then he loaded up and starting shooting... bang, bang bang, BANG and I felt stings in my face. I looked over and his hand was bleeding pretty bad and the receiver was in pieces. As I worked on him to stop the bleeding(I used to be an EMT many years ago... you remember the basics) I asked what powder he was using. He said Red Dot he found in the garage of the house he moved into... He ended with 22 stitches and no fingers lost. When the EMT's arrived they looked at me with this really weird look... I asked what? They said "didn't you notice the blood dripping off your face?" I had 6 fragments of aluminum embedded in my forehead and one in my cheek that they removed in the ER.

People need to stop and THINK about what they are doing when handling guns! When I am loading mags I only have 1 type of ammo out to prevent mistakes. I load my AR to 556 levels and while my Savage Axis barrel can handle it(same barrel is used for much higher pressure loads than .223) I try to not use it unless it is an emergency. I do use Buffalo Bore +p in my Walther PK380. But not for practice. I use a plain jane load with the same bullet design that is a little lower in speed and pressure. No sense beating the heck out of the pistol barrel and frame! Yes I know there is no official +p in .380!

[Budzilla 19]

ACC, glad you were there to help that young lady!!! Hope all will work out with her.

[M-Tecs]

I load my AR to 556 levels and while my Savage Axis barrel can handle it(same barrel is used for much higher pressure loads than .223) I try to not use it unless it is an emergency.

When measured with the same methodology the 5.56 and the .223 are basically the same pressures. The major difference is the early original 223 Rem had shorter throats that increased pressure when fired with 5.56.

https://ultimatereloader.com/2018/08/05/223-vs-5-56-facts-and-myths/

Post 13 from Larry has actual comparative tests. http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?225134-223-vers-5-56-Nato-Educate-me

Both M193 and M855 use WC844 powder. It's H335 with flash inhibitor required by the military to reduce its signature. Having pulled thousands of these and replacing the bullets the charge weights are inline with .223 Data. I cant check pressure but I can check velocity. I don't see any measurable velocity difference between WC844 and H335.

[Tom W.]

I thought those guns also had warnings in their instruction book about using such ammo? It's a sad thing, but as some one else pointed out, +P, and +P+ ammo shouldn't even exist. 45 LC, 45-70, and 32H&R may be fine in your Ruger, but will blow up your H&R, SAA, or Trapdoor.
I remember in my CC class an octogenarian lady showed up with a LCR 38 and the some +P 158gr ammo. The first shot cut leaves out of the trees and took all the skin off the top of her right thumb!

Does this mean that my NEF 30/30 A.I. is going to explode with my handloads????

All owners manuals will recommend what to shoot from their firearms, and I have yet to see one that says "shoot any and all handloads that you want."

My heart goes out to the young lady, and she's in for a lot of relearning if she wants to be a nurse. It was Providence that you were there!

[James Wisner]

This is why I went one route with my 38 spl, and 357 reloads.

Brass 38 cases are loaded with wadcutters and 150 gr SWC only, mild to std loads only.

Nickel 38 +P cases has the Lyman 358429 bullet loaded in them and is too long for the two 38 Spl revolvers I have

Nickel 357 cases and the Lyman 358429 bullet works fine in the two 357 revolvers I have

Sad to hear about the young shooter, hopes she recovers OK

Was up at our local shooing range 2 years ago and the buzz was the new hole in the ceiling caused by a Leupold scope that went upwards when the 300 WSM rifle blew up.
He walked away needing 5 stiches on his cheek from the extractor flying past his head.

JW

[Thundarstick]

Does this mean that my NEF 30/30 A.I. is going to explode with my handloads????

All owners manuals will recommend what to shoot from their firearms, and I have yet to see one that says "shoot any and all handloads that you want."

My heart goes out to the young lady, and she's in for a lot of relearning if she wants to be a nurse. It was Providence that you were there!

See my post 38

[Tom W.]

Gotcha, thanks!

[Lloyd Smale]

correct answer. Its not loaded to any higher pressure then plus p. It is safe in any gun that is rated for plus p. Theres a GIANT difference in plus p (and +P+) then there is in 357 pressures. Keep in mind that if your gun is rated for 30k pressure its proofed at twice that. They are not going to make a modern 38 special, even one not rated for plus p that's going to blow up using plus p. They would get sewed out of business in a month. What happens when you use plus p or plus p plus ammo is you accelerate wear on your action parts and will end up with a rattle way before you blow it up. Ive been on here for 20 years and ive NEVER seen anyone condone loading 38s to 357 levels. Only thing close is some will load N frame smiths pretty stout but they sure specifiy its for an N frame which is the same frame as a 44 mag with a cylinder with thicker sidewalls then any 44 mag. They even called the 38/44s. I guess too here we take it for granted because its a casting site that this isn't your first rodeo. Not to many of us are loading with lee loaders and dippers and pulling loading data out of the air. Its no different then on here talking about large frame single action 45 colt rugers and redhawks loaded to higher pressures then factory ammo. If you don't have the intelligence or common sense to know the difference then you should find a different hobby.
+P+ has no real meaning but is used as a marketing ploy. Essentially from what I can tell it's pretty much "more than +P" with no other guidance. Why would you need that? I usually tell people to not try and make a gun do what it isn't designed for. If you want 357Mag velocity then get a 357Mag. Her experience is why I leave higher pressure pistol loads to my Blackhawks and don't freewheel where others have not gone. I just don't have the equipment to warn me of coming problems. In fairness to Buffalo Bore, they are quite clear about their ammunition and what it is designed to be shot in.

Unfortunately in regards to the store clerk who sold her the ammo, it's not up to him to tell a customer what they can and can't buy but the days of knowledgeable clerks who would inquire what type of gun that was going into are coming to an end. He probably didn't know anymore than she did or less. I once went into a store to get a box of ammunition for a 308 742 Rem Woodsmaster. I told him what it was for and he said all he had was 308 Winchester and no way could I shoot that in a 308 Remington rifle with the other commando leaning on the counter shaking his head and laughing at the idiot kid who didn't know anything.

I doubt there are any on this sight who would not ask these questions and then strongly discourage the buying of said ammunition as unsuitable for the intended gun or just outright refuse. It has made me strongly consider when I retire getting a job in a gun store. I don't know much about guns and ammo but I know enough to ask questions or find the answer if I don't know.

As to pushing the pressure curve and why? Same reason you have gun store commando's that know everything and are ready to tell you.
"The 556 is far superior to the 223. The 223 isn't good for anything"
"You know how much velocity your going to lose (gain) with a 16in vs 18in barrel? Let me pontificate"
"Everyone knows the wound cavity from a 44 Mag at 1473fps using X brand of ammo is x inches larger than 1389fps with that other stuff"
"Cast for self defense or hunting? Just won't work, it will destroy your gun, what's wrong with you..blah blah blah"
"45LC? That's no good for anything"
"Hunt whitetail with a 30-30? Who would do something stupid like that, a 30-30 is way underpowered for doing that"

I'm glad she will live but prayers for her and what happened. It's too bad. An honest mistake on her part most likely with little experience and just doing what someone recommended has changed her life forever. Kudo's to you for being on the spot and knowing what to do.

It's also a reminder that when at a gun store or especially a range keep your eyes and ears open. If you see or hear something and it is not just silly but could be dangerous say and do something. Next time it could be you not thinking and doing something that gets stopped in time by someone else.

[ACC]

Well here is an update. The young ladies parents have taken her home to Amarillo for physical therapy. My wife and I visited her everyday she was in the hospital. I tried to show her the love God has for her, but I will have to see what happens.

Her parents thanked me for all I did, and said they would stay in touch.

God will work it out, I have no doubt.

ACC

[lightman]

Thanks for the update. It was mighty good of you to visit with her and offer her support. Hopefully she will recover and continue her career.

[ACC]

Thanks for the update. It was mighty good of you to visit with her and offer her support. Hopefully she will recover and continue her career.
There is more to life than cast boolits. Not much but some. Besides if I call my self a man of God. I am to visit the sick.

ACC

[lightman]

There is more to life than cast boolits. Not much but some. Besides if I call my self a man of God. I am to visit the sick.

ACC

I agree and I complement you, Sir. If you should hear from Her, please post about it. Thanks

[Ed K]

Thank you ACC.

[megasupermagnum]

This is sad to hear. I don't think the clerk is to blame though. How could he know? Buffalo Bore ammo is reputable brand after all.

After a search on the Buffalo Bore website, the claim is that "this load is safe to shoot in all 38SPL and 357 magnum firearms of modern design that are in normal operating condition" for all 38 special ammo that I see, even the 158 grain @ 1250 fps load.

The real sad thing is she got hurt, and there is no clear lesson to be learned. Assuming she was using a gun that was supposed in good condition, Buffalo Bore ammo is supposed to be safe. Sometimes life just sucks.

[fcvan]

I am disturbed that the woman was injured but greatful to learn that immediate aid was rendered by a member. Thank you ACC.

Years ago, a friend had purchased a Taurus M85, a clone of the S&W 36 chief's special. It blew up on standard pressure 38 SP loads, and he was not injured. Taurus honored it's lifetime warranty and replaced the M85. The cylinder split in 2 pieces and the top strap was bent. Taurus claimed the cylinder was likely defective based on their inspection of the pieces. He replaced the the Taurus with a S&W 66 and sold me the Taurus. I eventually replaced the grips with Hogue Rubber Monogrips. My typical plinking loads are 125 grains over 5 grains of unique, with a book load max of 5.3 at 16800 psi.

I started loading the Lee 358-105 SWC and my wife loved it, also over the same 5 gr load of Unique. She won't give it back and tells me to 'get my own.' I also started loading the Lee 356-95 RF (mine drops at .358) over the same load of Unique, the pressure being below 14000 PSI. She likes that load a lot because it 'kills tin cans' and saves lead. She is not shy of recoil, her favorite weapon being a Ruger SBH with a 3 3/4" barrel using the Lee C429-240 SWC at 1250 FPS. She hasn't yet tried the Lee 429-208 WC loaded to 950 FPS. Should be a good paper puncher as well as serious hog medicine. You just can't get a broader meplat than a wad cutter

[john.k]

Strange thing about the newbies that all want super duper loads for a light gun is the recoil just about throws the gun from their hand,and after the first shot they are shooting so wild any burglar would be plain unlucky to even get grazed......Since I got old ,I dont even look sideways at newbies on the range .....they resent any approach from an old man.So I just move away.

[M-Tecs]

Good read here on standard verse +P http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?393957-38-Special-P&p=4804231#post4804231

[jsizemore]

Being in the nursing profession she'll have great help with her predicament. We have a member on this site that lost some finger parts and has a prosthesis to give him quality function of his hand. Saw on tv a youngin' with transplanted hands. Amazing.