When is a lie a sin

[dtknowles]

"Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.”

The Eighth Commandment condemns lying.

But does it really. Let us for the moment consider that everyone is our neighbor. So if the lie does not harm anyone then it is not a sin? Now if you always tell the truth you do not bear false witness so it is not a sin even if it gets someone killed.

I am going to let others express their opinions before I share more of my own. This is an issue worthy of this forum.

Tim

[Hickory]

Always.
No exceptions.

[lefty o]

agree'd, a lie is always a sin. my own personal take, a liar's word is not to be trusted, and without trust, there is nothing. big lie, little lie, white lie, end result they are all a lie.

[dverna]

I am one of those Christians that trusts God to have common sense. All “sins” are not equal.

His creation has feelings. Telling the absolute truth can hurt people for little reason. White lies that do not harm others is acceptable and not a sin.

Do you tell your grandchild there is no Santa Clause, Tooth Fairy or Easter Bunny?

[lefty o]

there is a time and place to shut up and say nothing. its not as easy as lying, but no one said life is easy. kind of like when your mother told you that if you dont have anything nice to say, dont say anything. if you feel the need to lie, you are much better off remaining silent. as far as i am concerned in the end, everyone has to look themselves in the mirror. if anybody feels the need to go through life lying, do what you have to do, but if you lie to me, then we have a problem. not lying isnt easy, but it is better.

[Hickory]

You can use a lie to deceive a person, but, you do not sin against them. You are sinning against God.

[Ickisrulz]

So the Nazis stop by looking for Jews. You have a family hidden in your basement. They ask, "Have you seen any Jews?" You say you have not.

Can anyone seriously say this lie is a sin?

[Hickory]

So the Nazis stop by looking for Jews. You have a family hidden in your basement. They ask, "Have you seen any Jews?" You say you have not.

Can anyone seriously say this lie is a sin?

God will judge the sin as to the why and how.
I am comfortable with that!

[Ickisrulz]

God will judge the sin as to the why and how.
I am comfortable with that!

So you still see this as a sin?

[Hickory]

So you still see this as a sin?

Yes, most definitely.
God, unlike man, is faithful and just to forgive us of our sins.

[GhostHawk]

I think they are pretty much all sins. Severity, intent, and what is in your heart may moderate it. But I think we should be Honest. Can anyone point in bible wher e Jesus lied?

[dangitgriff]

I think they are pretty much all sins. Severity, intent, and what is in your heart may moderate it. But I think we should be Honest. Can anyone point in bible wher e Jesus lied?

Sure!
He lied in a tomb for three days straight.
[emoji851]

[robbyPGP2014]

How many lies does it take to be a liar
and how many times do you have to tell the truth to be truthful? In the end it is what GOD says, not what i think.HE will be the Judge.

[Ickisrulz]

Yes, most definitely.
God, unlike man, is faithful and just to forgive us of our sins.

Lying to save someone's life is a sin? I disagree.

Working on the Sabbath was a sin for Israel. Yet Jesus did work on the Sabbath for people's benefit. It was not a sin in this case (or other cases Jesus talked about).

[lefty o]

there are exceptions to every rule. if you feel you are saving someones life by lying, go for it. with very few exceptions, thats a slim argument in favor of being a liar.

[popper]

yes it is a sin, but through Jesus Christ, sins are forgiven. Non-believers don't have to worry, Original Sin places them in a different 'place' anyway!

[Jevyod]

When I saw the title I immediately thought of a short story by Mark Twain. It is entitled "Was it Heaven, or Hell". I believe that is the right story title. This question is more of an ethics question. The overlying question is "Is it ever wrong to commit a sin in order to prevent a greater evil from happening"? Such as, If your wife, only child ect was sick to the point of death, and the only way to save them was to break in to the pharmacy and steal the meds they need to survive, is it ok? Some would say if they are a Christian, then they will go to heaven anyways, so no. But what if the person is an unbeliever that is close to the Kingdom? Would that change your answer? It is so easy for us to make judgement calls like that, but does that make it right? The topic of ethics can be a big one to work through, and I am not sure exactly where I come out at on every question. But at the end of the day, I do not feel it is right for me to lie because it is giong against the command of God. It takes a big trust, but there are people that have done it, and God worked miraculously in their behalf. It does not mean that He has to, but I think there is something very powerful when a child of God says "I will obey God, no matter the cost" I think of the story of people who were hiding Jews in Germany (was in the Corrie Ten Boom family?" who decided they will not lie no matter the cost. The soldiers came and asked where they hid the Jews. One of them looked at him and declared that the Jews were under the table. This was true, there was a hidden trapdoor. The soldiers laughed at them, not believing them, and walked out. Again, God does not always work in that way, but He can. I believe it is up to me to obey, and up to God to be the judge. That is my long-winded answer!

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

I suspect our society has a definition of Lying that covers more than the Eighth Commandment does.

Embellishing the truth in a hunting/fishing story could easily fit into the Lie category, but is it bearing false witness against thy neighbor?

[Ickisrulz]

God's concern is that we love other people. It is not that we woodenly follow the "rules."

If telling a lie to someone wishing to maliciously harm another person prevents that harm, it is an act of love. To suggest that such a lie is a sin is pharisaic and fails to see what God wants for man.

There is no such thing as a necessary evil. If an action is evil, it's not necessary. If an action is necessary, it is not evil. There are many scenarios where a lie is necessary to prevent harm to others.

[1hole]

Is a "lie" always a sin? Welll ... a lot of people ignore the fact that God examines our hearts more than the deeds we may do, meaning He's much more concerned about why we do things than what we do.

How should we rightly define what is a lie anyway? We know that telling an untruth to harm others is the epitome of lying and, by extension, we may lie to cover our own errors. But, I will argue that not every untruth we say is a "lie". We may say something that's incorrect because we thought it to be true; that's not a lie, it's a mistake. We may tell a homely fat lady she's looking good today because we love her more than we love always telling the "truth." When questioned about slimy rumors we may say, "I don't know" when we actually do know but we chose to not support the rumor mill. I guess what I'm trying to say is God's hatred of lying, as such, can be distorted into pridefully doing "right" no matter the cost to others .... and then call it being a "good" example. ???

Think of this; no one ever said the Pharisees sinned by breaking the letter of the Mosaic Law. But we know they busted the meaning and purpose of that Law by being self-righteous, strict law following religionists. And we don't have to read much of the New Testament to learn Jesus had a really low opinion of them; I don't want to be like them.

As alluded to above, the thing God hates about lying is trying to do harm to others (OR to escape the rightful consequenses of admitting our own failings). But, like the Lord's many parabiles, not every technically untrue thing we may speak is, ip so facto, a "lie".

[1hole]

If an action is necessary, it is not evil. There are many scenarios where a lie is necessary to prevent harm to others.

Well said.

[flyingmonkey35]

So when your wife asks of that dress makes her look fat.

Is it a lie when you tell her she is beautiful no matter what she wears.

Even if the dress is horribly fitted?

Was it a sin for me to tell a grieving father that hes son died when he fell down the stairs. Not because he tripped and landed on him trying to save him?

Lies are a double edged sword.

Be as truthful as you can but be tactful with the truth.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

[Todd N.]

If telling a lie in the face of Evil will save lives, I will do it every time. I have to live with my actions, not you. God will decide if I was righteous.


Remember,

"Let He who is without malice cast the first stone"

[dverna]

BTW, I attend an Evangelical church and we are constantly bombarded by how evil and sinful we are. I get tired of it. The pastor is excellent in every other way or I would leave. This thread reminds me of how silly it can get. Lying to save someone or telling a white lie to ease distress is NOT A SIN. There is no sinful intent.

I realize it is necessary for churches to put us down so they can lead us to salvation...and to get us to contribute money so they can "spread the word" about how wicked man is. They need funds to bring others to Jesus and build bigger and "better" faculties. One giant guilt trip.

When an innocent white lie, or telling a lie to save others is turned into sin, it shows how indoctrinated some have become.

[dangitgriff]

Isn’t a lie by omission still a lie?
Uncle Sam is known to do this...a lot.

[Thundarstick]

Rahab? Jos 2:3-4
And the king of Jericho sent unto Rahab, saying, Bring forth the men that are come to thee, which are entered into thine house: for they be come to search out all the country.
And the woman took the two men, and hid them, and said thus, There came men unto me, but I wist not whence they were:

Jas 2:24-26

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Thus says the word. Now, figure out where you fit in!

[dtknowles]

Is a "lie" always a sin? Welll ... a lot of people ignore the fact that God examines our hearts more than the deeds we may do, meaning He's much more concerned about why we do things than what we do....

While 1hole and I often differ I agree with him on this. The commandments wording is iffy and really I think the key word is against. We need to be for the good not against our neighbors. If you lie in the service of good I don't think it is a sin. Like 1hole said it is more about why you did what you did than it is about the letter of some law that is subject to interpretation. God knows why you did what you did better than you do.

Tim

[DCP]

All lies are sins even those done for a good reason254176

[dtknowles]

All lies are sins even those done for a good reason254176

The commandment does not even mention lies. Nobody is trying to change scripture, just trying to understand it. Quote us some scripture with the word lie.

Tim

[Hickory]

Nobody is trying to change scripture, just trying to understand it.

Tim

More times than not, it does not matter what end of the ******* you talk to, the words just don't get in.

[Thundarstick]

I posted up scriptural evidence of a woman who lied, and another scriptural reference where it's said she was justified, and no one can comment on the scriptures, just bicker back and forth. These scriptures, seem to me, to support that why we do something, is at least as important as what we do.

[DCP]

One does not have to be a theologian to discover how God feels about lying. All one needs is a concordance and one will find an abundance of verses where God condemns lying. Here is a small sample.

“You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor” (Exodus 20:16).

“You shall not steal, nor deal falsely, nor lie to one another” (Leviticus 19:11).

“You shall destroy those who speak falsehood; The LORD abhors the bloodthirsty and deceitful man” (Psalms 5:6).

“Let the lying lips be put to silence, Which speak insolent things proudly and contemptuously against the righteous” (Psalms 31:18).

“The wicked are estranged from the womb; They go astray as soon as they are born, speaking lies” (Psalms 58:3).

“He who works deceit shall not dwell within my house; he who tells lies shall not continue in my presence” (Psalms 101:7).

“Deliver my soul, oh LORD, from lying lips And from a deceitful tongue” (Psalms 120:2).

“Lying lips are an abomination to the LORD, But those who deal truthfully are his delight” (Proverbs 12:22).

“A faithful witness does not lie, But a false witness will utter lies” (Proverbs 14:5).

“A true witness delivers souls, But a deceitful witness speaks lies” (Proverbs 14:25).

“A false witness will not go unpunished, And he who speaks lies shall perish” (Proverbs 19:9).

“Getting treasures by a lying tongue Is the fleeting fantasy of those who seek death” (Proverbs 21:6).

“You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it” (John 8:44).

“Do not lie to one another, since you have put off the old man with his deeds” (Colossians 3:9).

“And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity. The tongue is so set among our members that it defiles the whole body, and sets on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire by hell” (James 3:6).

“But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death” Revelation 21:8).

.

[dangitgriff]

https://youtu.be/VUaiNAabX80

[Ickisrulz]

I posted up scriptural evidence of a woman who lied, and another scriptural reference where it's said she was justified, and no one can comment on the scriptures, just bicker back and forth. These scriptures, seem to me, to support that why we do something, is at least as important as what we do.

There is also the story of the Hebrew midwives that lied to Pharaoh and were blessed for doing so.

Decades later, Moses was directed by God to ask Pharaoh to allow the Hebrews to leave Egypt for a few days to worship God and return, while the true intention was for them to leave permanently.

Even wilder is the lying spirit sent by God to deceive Ahab in Kings and the strong delusion that will be sent by God per Thessalonians.

Often these types of things (i.e., prohibited behaviors) are not as black and white as we'd like them. But often people have their theology set early in life and are very hard to convince that it might need to be tweaked a bit as they mature.

[DCP]

Remember folks the Bible does not contradict itself.
If it says two different things you missed something.
As one Matures in the word you should never stop learning.

[DCP]

https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/1224-did-god-reward-midwives-for-lying

It is incorrect to say that God rewarded the midwives for lying. The Bible does not affirm that conclusion. The Lord blessed them for their refusal to kill baby boys — for their interest in obeying God rather than man.

[popper]

The Eighth Commandment condemns lying Purpose of the Commandments was (is) to prove to US that we are sinners! We spend time (wasted) trying to justify our actions. We don't get to do that. We don't make the rules nor are we the judge! Midwives were lying to cover the fact that they didn't want to murder Israelite babies! We don't know if they asked forgiveness for the lie!
Try this one - https://www.kingofsalem.com/about-us.html - interesting, Christ is a woman?
Or was Melchisedec actually Jesus come to earth?
Scripture tells ME what is expected of ME. With historical references to those who did and didn't.
Don, would you rather hear that we are all sinners or 'everybody goes to Heaven'? Which is a lie? I know sometimes it can get overbearing.

[dverna]

My Pastor told us to be wary of those who quote scripture. His rationale was that things can be taken out of context. This is not an uncommon way to justify and accept contradictions in the Bible.

Most of us pick and chose what we want the Bible to tell us. One of my pet peeves is when I am told a Bible passage has not been translated "correctly", and this is what it really means...… Our Pastor does that quite a bit. It raises a red flag most of the time and encourages me to study in more depth...a good thing!

Well, I am not prepared to learn Greek or Hebrew. So the Bible says what is says unless someone has a really good argument otherwise.

DCP, none of the quotes in your post suggest a white lie or a lie to do good are sins. Context is important.

popper,
I hear we are sinners every sermon and normally more than once a sermon. I get it...yes we are sinners. I am tired of being brow beaten by the fact. God made us sinners...heck He created evil. He created EVERYTHING! We do not know why God created evil but one cannot believe God is omnipotent and conclude He did not create everything including evil.

We cannot even get the "original sin" right. It was not Adam and Eve who committed the original sin. The original sin was Pride and it caused not only Lucifer but 1/3 of the angels to be cast from heaven.

Religion (maybe mostly the Evangelical church I attend) needs to beat us down. God does not do that.

[DCP]

My Pastor told us to be wary of those who quote scripture. His rationale was that things can be taken out of context. This is not an uncommon way to justify and accept contradictions in the Bible.

Most of us pick and chose what we want the Bible to tell us. One of my pet peeves is when I am told a Bible passage has not been translated "correctly", and this is what it really means...… Our Pastor does that quite a bit. It raises a red flag most of the time and encourages me to study in more depth...a good thing!

Well, I am not prepared to learn Greek or Hebrew. So the Bible says what is says unless someone has a really good argument otherwise.

DCP, none of the quotes in your post suggest a white lie or a lie to do good are sins. Context is important.

All lies are sins
All sins are equal
Only one sin is unforgivable- unbelief
To be forgiven you must ask for forgiveness
The wage of sin is death.
Christ paid for our sins with his blood



Jesus died for our sins,

[Ickisrulz]

https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/1224-did-god-reward-midwives-for-lying

It is incorrect to say that God rewarded the midwives for lying. The Bible does not affirm that conclusion. The Lord blessed them for their refusal to kill baby boys — for their interest in obeying God rather than man.

The reason they could avoid killing the babies and continue to do so was because of the lies they told when questioned. To say they were blessed for not killing babies but condemned for the means they used is splitting hairs and missing the big picture.

The big picture is that very few behaviors are absolutely wrong at all times. It depends on whether or not the action will hurt someone and what a person's motivation is. The Pharisees were under the impression that Jesus wrongly broke the Sabbath when he healed people. Technically he was working on the Sabbath which broke the letter of the Law. But he was doing good and that was more important.

[DCP]

Here is the real problem. It is God's job to judge not man.
So what is a good lie or what is a bad lie? God judges not man
God will forgive all lies if you ask for forgiveness

Do not judge

[snowwolfe]

Sometimes a lie is the least evil of two options. You would understand this better if your wife ever asks if her new dress makes her butt look to big

[Ickisrulz]

Here is the real problem. It is God's job to judge not man.
So what is a good lie or what is a bad lie? God judges not man
God will forgive all lies if you ask for forgiveness

Do not judge

Are you suggesting that we should not judge the difference between what is right or wrong?

The Bible tells us we are to do this and, in certain circumstances, confront other believers when their behavior is sinful.

We cannot eliminate evil in our own lives or help others if we don't know what is a sin and what is not.

[lefty o]

Sometimes a lie is the least evil of two options. You would understand this better if your wife ever asks if her new dress makes her butt look to big

you can get around that without a lie, but you must be very careful in how you choose your words, or suffer the consequences. LOL or be blunt, and run like the wind.............................

[DCP]

Matthew 7:1-6 New International Version (NIV)
Judging Others
7 “Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

3 “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4 How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.

6 “Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces.

[Ickisrulz]

Matthew 7:1-6 New International Version (NIV)
Judging Others
7 “Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

3 “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4 How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.

6 “Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces.

What is the point you are making?

In Matthew chapter 7, Jesus want us to help our brother get rid of that "speck of sawdust." That speck is harmful, painful and should be removed. Therefore, we have to know what we are looking at. That is where being able to identify a sin or potential stumbling block is essential.

The danger is looking down on our brother (or worse) and that "judgement" becomes a plank that renders us unhelpful and unloving.

[a danl]

when a person lies it always is against god. god is holy , that means he is totally separate from anything in the universe and he cannot sin and all sin has to be dealt with. and the only one that can forgive sin is god himself. that is why we need a savior and that can only be jesus.

[a danl]

I am one of those Christians that trusts God to have common sense. All “sins” are not equal.

His creation has feelings. Telling the absolute truth can hurt people for little reason. White lies that do not harm others is acceptable and not a sin.

Do you tell your grandchild there is no Santa Clause, Tooth Fairy or Easter Bunny?

don, do you know the origin of where the saying "little white lie"comes from?

[dangitgriff]

don, do you know the origin of where the saying "little white lie"comes from?

A Valley girl in Harlem? [emoji848][emoji15][emoji6]

[Todd N.]

A Valley girl in Harlem? [emoji848][emoji15][emoji6]


Now That is funny!!! :drinks:

[Blackwater]

Ultimately, I'm with DCP, but I suspect that the Lord makes allowances at times. Say you're captured and tortured for information on where your forces are located. And you lie about the location. I think that would likely be unpunished. But all other lies, except for the very explainable and understandable and "necessary" ones - well, they're just plain lies, like all the rest. After all, what would our lives be like if we couldn't trust each other's word? I've known businessmen who did all their business on a handshake basis, without contracts of any kind. But their reputations were such that anything they promised, was faithfully executed, and their good will sufficient to save the one requesting the work money, if possible. People who contract out jobs tend strongly to truse ONLY those who consistently and faithfully deliver what they want. And those contractors who do this, never seem to have trouble finding work. Instead, they often if not usually find themselves turning down jobs due to the reputations of some who seek their services, or who try to take advantage of them and their good will by simply being "hard to work for." Truth is a VERY underestimated thing!

[Thundarstick]

So you make a case that "intent" is more important than the lie? IE, to save the lives of your comrades.

[dtknowles]

All you need to understand is God knows what you did and why. God will be the judge.

[Blackwater]

Thunder, no, that's not what I was saying at all. All I'm saying is that a lie is a lie, but that I personally believe that a lie, such as one intended and obviously aimed at saving his fellow combatants' lives, will not be treated the same way by our Lord, as one told for personal gain or pointless political correctness, or any other reason. God even makes exceptions even in the laws of physics, such as the parting of the Red Sea, and other miracles. Why should we believe He doesn't make exceptions, however rare, with regard to lies as well?

[a danl]

Now That is funny!!! :drinks:

but that's wrong

[Ickisrulz]

Thunder, no, that's not what I was saying at all. All I'm saying is that a lie is a lie, but that I personally believe that a lie, such as one intended and obviously aimed at saving his fellow combatants' lives, will not be treated the same way by our Lord, as one told for personal gain or pointless political correctness, or any other reason. God even makes exceptions even in the laws of physics, such as the parting of the Red Sea, and other miracles. Why should we believe He doesn't make exceptions, however rare, with regard to lies as well?

I am not trying to single you out here. But, you say you not claiming that "intent" is more important than the lie, and then say a lie "intended" for good is probably OK with God?

I don't understand the hard line stance against all lies by the posters in this thread. The Bible (see posts 26 and 34) and common sense (examples throughout the thread) suggest lies are sometimes quite necessary and not sinful.

[DCP]

Why are folk trying to say lying is ok. If it a good lie still all lies are sins. That God will judge
There is exceptions even with the 10 commandments
Thou shall not kill but we kill during war or protecting are family
Thou shall not steal some steal food to eat.
I really could go on and on, go on and on

[DCP]

One does not have to be a theologian to discover how God feels about lying. All one needs is a concordance and one will find an abundance of verses where God condemns lying. Here is a small sample.

“You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor” (Exodus 20:16).

“You shall not steal, nor deal falsely, nor lie to one another” (Leviticus 19:11).

“You shall destroy those who speak falsehood; The LORD abhors the bloodthirsty and deceitful man” (Psalms 5:6).

“Let the lying lips be put to silence, Which speak insolent things proudly and contemptuously against the righteous” (Psalms 31:18).

“The wicked are estranged from the womb; They go astray as soon as they are born, speaking lies” (Psalms 58:3).

“He who works deceit shall not dwell within my house; he who tells lies shall not continue in my presence” (Psalms 101:7).

“Deliver my soul, oh LORD, from lying lips And from a deceitful tongue” (Psalms 120:2).

“Lying lips are an abomination to the LORD, But those who deal truthfully are his delight” (Proverbs 12:22).

“A faithful witness does not lie, But a false witness will utter lies” (Proverbs 14:5).

“A true witness delivers souls, But a deceitful witness speaks lies” (Proverbs 14:25).

“A false witness will not go unpunished, And he who speaks lies shall perish” (Proverbs 19:9).

“Getting treasures by a lying tongue Is the fleeting fantasy of those who seek death” (Proverbs 21:6).

“You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it” (John 8:44).

“Do not lie to one another, since you have put off the old man with his deeds” (Colossians 3:9).

“And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity. The tongue is so set among our members that it defiles the whole body, and sets on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire by hell” (James 3:6).

“But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death” Revelation 21:8).

.

[Ickisrulz]

Why are folk trying to say lying is ok. If it a good lie still all lies are sins. That God will judge
There is exceptions even with the 10 commandments
Thou shall not kill but we kill during war or protecting are family
Thou shall not steal some steal food to eat.
I really could go on and on, go on and on

You see an exception for killing in self defense and war, but you don't see an exception for lying to protect a human life? That doesn't make any sense at all.

When it comes to God's directions on how we live (not the symbolic aspects of the Law), every single one makes sense from a logical stand point. It is easy to understand why God wants us to behave certain ways. To claim prohibitions against lying include untruths to protect people does not pass the "smell test." How is disclosing information to an evil person that will get someone killed "loving your neighbor?"

[Ickisrulz]

One does not have to be a theologian to discover how God feels about lying. All one needs is a concordance and one will find an abundance of verses where God condemns lying. Here is a small sample.


You have ignored the verses where God does not condemn lying. Instead he rewarded or directed it. (see posts 26 and 34).

[DCP]

The bible doesn't contradict itself.

1 you don't understand
2. God has not revealed to you yet what is being said

[swheeler]

"Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.”

The Eighth Commandment condemns lying.

But does it really. Let us for the moment consider that everyone is our neighbor. So if the lie does not harm anyone then it is not a sin? Now if you always tell the truth you do not bear false witness so it is not a sin even if it gets someone killed.

I am going to let others express their opinions before I share more of my own. This is an issue worthy of this forum.

Tim

I think you mean the NINTH commandment , but we shouldn't steal either.

[Ickisrulz]

The bible doesn't contradict itself.

1 you don't understand
2. God has not revealed to you yet what is being said

There is no contradiction and I never claimed there was. There are exceptions to many of the restrictions on behavior. Here are just two that have been mentioned before:

We are not to kill people. However, the Bible commanded capital punishment for murderers, allows for acts of self defense and doesn't condemn soldiers who go to war.

The Jews were not to work on the Sabbath. Yet Jesus said it was OK to do good work on the Sabbath.

In general, we are to tell the truth. But there are instances where deceit is justifiable. See posts 26 and 34.

If you can tell me where I am wrong in post 34, I'd like to hear your opinion.

[DCP]

Well, I tell you what if Jesus tells you can tell a lie. Then feel free

If not, if you tell a white lie, ask Jesus for forgiveness he died for your sins

[Ickisrulz]

Well, I tell you what if Jesus tells you can tell a lie. Then feel free

You know it doesn't work that way. As Christians we are to educate ourselves on what is a sin and what is not. This means hard work within the pages of the Bible. We are not going to hear a voice from heaven. Like I said before, many behaviors are not black and white, and lying is just one of them.

I gather you are not interested in addressing the passages I talked about in my post #34.

[DCP]

You know it doesn't work that way. As Christians we are to educate ourselves on what is a sin and what is not. This means hard work within the pages of the Bible. We are not going to hear a voice from heaven. Like I said before, many behaviors are not black and white, and lying is just one of them.

I gather you are not interested in addressing the passages I talked about in my post #34.

I have already addressed maybe 4 times and you missed it.
Brother, I will pray for you and yours

Vaya con Dios

[Ickisrulz]

I have already addressed maybe 4 times and you missed it.
Brother, I will pray for you and yours

Vaya con Dios

Actually you did not. You have repeated the same opinions, but have not addressed the passages I talked about in #34 except for the Hebrew midwives (which while I don't agree with your assessment, I concede that it is a legitimate point).

[dtknowles]

I think you mean the NINTH commandment , but we shouldn't steal either.

Well maybe but if you are Catholic, it is number 8.

1: “I am the Lord thy God, thou shalt not have any strange gods before Me.”

This commandment forbids idolatry, the worship of false gods and goddesses, and it excludes polytheism, the belief in many gods, insisting instead on monotheism, the belief in one God. This commandment forbids making golden calves, building temples to Isis, and worshipping statues of Caesar, for example.

2: “Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain.”

The faithful are required to honor the name of God. It makes sense that if you’re to love God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength, then you’re naturally to respect the name of God with equal passion and vigor.

3: “Remember to keep holy the Sabbath day.”

The Jewish celebration of Sabbath (Shabbat) begins at sundown on Friday evening and lasts until sundown on Saturday. Catholic, Protestant, and Orthodox Christians go to church on Sunday, treating it as the Lord’s Day instead of Saturday to honor the day Christ rose from the dead.

4: “Honor thy father and mother.”

This commandment obliges the faithful to show respect for their parents — as children and adults. Children must obey their parents, and adults must respect and see to the care of their parents, when they become old and infirm.


5: “Thou shalt not kill.”

The better translation from the Hebrew would be “Thou shalt not murder” — a subtle distinction but an important one to the Church. Killing an innocent person is considered murder. Killing an unjust aggressor to preserve your own life is still killing, but it isn’t considered murder or immoral.

6: “Thou shalt not commit adultery.”

The sixth and ninth commandments honor human sexuality. This commandment forbids the actual, physical act of having immoral sexual activity, specifically adultery, which is sex with someone else’s spouse or a spouse cheating on their partner. This commandment also includes fornication, which is sex between unmarried people, prostitution, pornography, homosexual activity, masturbation, group sex, rape, incest, pedophilia, bestiality, and necrophilia.

7: “Thou shalt not steal.”

The seventh and tenth commandments focus on respecting and honoring the possessions of others. This commandment forbids the act of taking someone else’s property. The Catholic Church believes that this commandment also denounces cheating people of their money or property, depriving workers of their just wage, or not giving employers a full day’s work for a full day’s pay. Embezzlement, fraud, tax evasion, and vandalism are all considered extensions of violations of the Seventh Commandment.

8: “Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.”

The Eighth Commandment condemns lying. Because God is regarded as the author of all truth, the Church believes that humans are obligated to honor the truth. The most obvious way to fulfill this commandment is not to lie — intentionally deceive another by speaking a falsehood. So a good Catholic is who you want to buy a used car from.

9: “Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s wife.”

The Ninth Commandment forbids the intentional desire and longing for immoral sexuality. To sin in the heart, Jesus says, is to lust after a woman or a man in your heart with the desire and will to have immoral sex with them. Just as human life is a gift from God and needs to be respected, defended, and protected, so, too, is human sexuality. Catholicism regards human sexuality as a divine gift, so it’s considered sacred in the proper context — marriage.


10: “Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s goods.”

The Tenth Commandment forbids the wanting to or taking someone else’s property. Along with the Seventh Commandment, this commandment condemns theft and the feelings of envy, greed, and jealousy in reaction to what other people have.

Tim

[dtknowles]

Well, I tell you what if Jesus tells you can tell a lie. Then feel free

If not, if you tell a white lie, ask Jesus for forgiveness he died for your sins

If you tell a lie that hurts no one and regret needing to lie to spare someone from evil you have already met the necessary criteria for forgiveness. You need to regret the sin, strive to avoid the occasion of such sin and do your best to correct any damage done by your sin. White lies are sins that are automatically forgiven.

The penance for white lies is always trivial.

Tim

[Thundarstick]

One does not have to be a theologian to discover how God feels about lying. All one needs is a concordance and one will find an abundance of verses where God condemns lying. Here is a small sample.

“You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor” (Exodus 20:16).

“You shall not steal, nor deal falsely, nor lie to one another” (Leviticus 19:11).

“You shall destroy those who speak falsehood; The LORD abhors the bloodthirsty and deceitful man” (Psalms 5:6).

“Let the lying lips be put to silence, Which speak insolent things proudly and contemptuously against the righteous” (Psalms 31:18).

“The wicked are estranged from the womb; They go astray as soon as they are born, speaking lies” (Psalms 58:3).

“He who works deceit shall not dwell within my house; he who tells lies shall not continue in my presence” (Psalms 101:7).

“Deliver my soul, oh LORD, from lying lips And from a deceitful tongue” (Psalms 120:2).

“Lying lips are an abomination to the LORD, But those who deal truthfully are his delight” (Proverbs 12:22).

“A faithful witness does not lie, But a false witness will utter lies” (Proverbs 14:5).

“A true witness delivers souls, But a deceitful witness speaks lies” (Proverbs 14:25).

“A false witness will not go unpunished, And he who speaks lies shall perish” (Proverbs 19:9).

“Getting treasures by a lying tongue Is the fleeting fantasy of those who seek death” (Proverbs 21:6).

“You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it” (John 8:44).

“Do not lie to one another, since you have put off the old man with his deeds” (Colossians 3:9).

“And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity. The tongue is so set among our members that it defiles the whole body, and sets on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire by hell” (James 3:6).

“But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death” Revelation 21:8).

.

And every verse you listed here are examples of self serving lies, or a lies meant to do harm, or the ones who portray such lies.

[swheeler]

Well maybe but if you are Catholic, it is number 8.

1: “I am the Lord thy God, thou shalt not have any strange gods before Me.”

This commandment forbids idolatry, the worship of false gods and goddesses, and it excludes polytheism, the belief in many gods, insisting instead on monotheism, the belief in one God. This commandment forbids making golden calves, building temples to Isis, and worshipping statues of Caesar, for example.

2: “Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain.”

The faithful are required to honor the name of God. It makes sense that if you’re to love God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength, then you’re naturally to respect the name of God with equal passion and vigor.

3: “Remember to keep holy the Sabbath day.”

The Jewish celebration of Sabbath (Shabbat) begins at sundown on Friday evening and lasts until sundown on Saturday. Catholic, Protestant, and Orthodox Christians go to church on Sunday, treating it as the Lord’s Day instead of Saturday to honor the day Christ rose from the dead.

4: “Honor thy father and mother.”

This commandment obliges the faithful to show respect for their parents — as children and adults. Children must obey their parents, and adults must respect and see to the care of their parents, when they become old and infirm.


5: “Thou shalt not kill.”

The better translation from the Hebrew would be “Thou shalt not murder” — a subtle distinction but an important one to the Church. Killing an innocent person is considered murder. Killing an unjust aggressor to preserve your own life is still killing, but it isn’t considered murder or immoral.

6: “Thou shalt not commit adultery.”

The sixth and ninth commandments honor human sexuality. This commandment forbids the actual, physical act of having immoral sexual activity, specifically adultery, which is sex with someone else’s spouse or a spouse cheating on their partner. This commandment also includes fornication, which is sex between unmarried people, prostitution, pornography, homosexual activity, masturbation, group sex, rape, incest, pedophilia, bestiality, and necrophilia.

7: “Thou shalt not steal.”

The seventh and tenth commandments focus on respecting and honoring the possessions of others. This commandment forbids the act of taking someone else’s property. The Catholic Church believes that this commandment also denounces cheating people of their money or property, depriving workers of their just wage, or not giving employers a full day’s work for a full day’s pay. Embezzlement, fraud, tax evasion, and vandalism are all considered extensions of violations of the Seventh Commandment.

8: “Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.”

The Eighth Commandment condemns lying. Because God is regarded as the author of all truth, the Church believes that humans are obligated to honor the truth. The most obvious way to fulfill this commandment is not to lie — intentionally deceive another by speaking a falsehood. So a good Catholic is who you want to buy a used car from.

9: “Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s wife.”

The Ninth Commandment forbids the intentional desire and longing for immoral sexuality. To sin in the heart, Jesus says, is to lust after a woman or a man in your heart with the desire and will to have immoral sex with them. Just as human life is a gift from God and needs to be respected, defended, and protected, so, too, is human sexuality. Catholicism regards human sexuality as a divine gift, so it’s considered sacred in the proper context — marriage.


10: “Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s goods.”

The Tenth Commandment forbids the wanting to or taking someone else’s property. Along with the Seventh Commandment, this commandment condemns theft and the feelings of envy, greed, and jealousy in reaction to what other people have.

Tim

Nope Methodist

[dverna]

I have found it is frustrating at times to have much of a discussion with either a rabid Christian or atheist. But the Christians are just a bit worse because they easily dismiss logic, and fall back on faith or their understanding of scripture.

Having been an atheist, I believe many who profess not to believe in God, are not 100% certain He does not exist. That sliver of doubt allows them to listen a little bit more.

Many Christians do not realize how screwed up they are. This thread demonstrates that. And history proves it. Hundreds of Bible translations, and 1200 denominations is the US alone. New Christians have such a tough go of it...picking and choosing which denomination interprets the Bible as they want it to be. Most Christians raised in a certain denomination suffer from "group think" or go with the flow and never ask the hard questions. BTW, it is not the atheists who needed those 1200 denominations, but Christians who wanted to change the "rules".

[Ickisrulz]

Many Christians do not realize how screwed up they are. This thread demonstrates that. And history proves it. Hundreds of Bible translations, and 1200 denominations is the US alone. New Christians have such a tough go of it...picking and choosing which denomination interprets the Bible as they want it to be. Most Christians raised in a certain denomination suffer from "group think" or go with the flow and never ask the hard questions. BTW, it is not the atheists who needed those 1200 denominations, but Christians who wanted to change the "rules".

One reason that various English translations have been generated is that our language changes over time. For example, no one speaks in 1611 English (KJV). Translators may also try to develop a product for specific audiences (i.e., keeping the translation at a certain reading level, for children or for scholars). There are then the differences in agreement on how certain passages should be translated that sometimes generate another English translation. The bottom line is that there are very few doctrines that hinge on one word or even one sentence in the Bible. Therefore the English reader should pick a respected modern translation that they can easily read and understand. Someone looking for nuances that might be found in the original languages are better off reading a scholarly commentary versus thumbing through various translation (not many people know this!).

Christian denominations have not come about only because they wish to "change the rules." Sometimes an issue rears it's ugly head and it's best if a group make a split for the good of everyone involved*. At times the issue is so serious that a split is necessary to preserve the truth of the Gospel (e.g., Protestant Reformation). Some denominations are formed because a group does not want to be governed by a larger organization. There are many choices for someone looking for church, and that is good. The problem comes when a Christian blindly follows their church's teaching without doing their own research or thinking.

* It looks like the United Methodist Church may split over the issue of gay marriage and gay clergy. Apparently they have come to a point where each group wants their way. It is best for them to split instead of continuing on in strife and being of little value to their communities.

[1hole]

Two things we all need to be aware of:

1. "Denominations" - About that "1,200", I doubt that number, at least not in the USA. Some college "researchers" have posed such large numbers in order to make their findings more sensational. To do that many have assigned "denomination" to every non-denominational/independent congregation; that's foolish.

2. Bible translations and versions - it's usually the KJV ONLY folk who make an issue of that but they are wrong to do so. First, the 1611 KJV team did little translation as we would expect it to be, they had none of the oldest (Greek/Aramaic/Hebrew) texts to work with. They used the Latin text (Jerome's work for the Roman Catholic Church) because that was all they had.

* Fact, all "translations" of anything are "versions"

> There are many words in different languages that simply have no direct equivilants in other languages so each translation team has to chose what seems best to them and each team can honestly disagree with other teams.

> Words in ancient languages changed meanings over time, thus the translators have to guess what each word meant at the time it was written. And our English words drift in meaning over time as well. I remember when "gay" meant "happy"; just keeping up with current English word meanings can be a full time job.

> Grammar is not the same between languages. We literally could not grasp much of the Bible if we had a literal translation in our hands. Translators not only have to find the right words to print they have to figure out what the often convoluted grammer meant and then put the original thoughts on paper in English; that can be quite difficult to do.

I highly admire those who make a serious effort in translations and I also love those who struggle to provide paraphrases that are more readable and, therefore, more understandable. I do love my old KJV, it's what I grew up with and still study from but I also know it's the least "accurate" of the various orthodox Bibles we have.

NOTE: All of that meandering is for orthodox Christian Bibles. I do NOT respect the diabolical and deliberately distorted writings of Jehovah Witnesses, Mormons, Univeralists, Christian Scientists, et al, and suggest that everyone avoid them.

[dverna]

One reason that various English translations have been generated is that our language changes over time. For example, no one speaks in 1611 English (KJV). Translators may also try to develop a product for specific audiences (i.e., keeping the translation at a certain reading level, for children or for scholars). There are then the differences in agreement on how certain passages should be translated that sometimes generate another English translation. The bottom line is that there are very few doctrines that hinge on one word or even one sentence in the Bible. Therefore the English reader should pick a respected modern translation that they can easily read and understand. Someone looking for nuances that might be found in the original languages are better off reading a scholarly commentary versus thumbing through various translation (not many people know this!).

Christian denominations have not come about only because they wish to "change the rules." Sometimes an issue rears it's ugly head and it's best if a group make a split for the good of everyone involved*. At times the issue is so serious that a split is necessary to preserve the truth of the Gospel (e.g., Protestant Reformation). Some denominations are formed because a group does not want to be governed by a larger organization. There are many choices for someone looking for church, and that is good. The problem comes when a Christian blindly follows their church's teaching without doing their own research or thinking.

* It looks like the United Methodist Church may split over the issue of gay marriage and gay clergy. Apparently they have come to a point where each group wants their way. It is best for them to split instead of continuing on in strife and being of little value to their communities.

I understand that the church has and will continue to fragment over a variety of issues. It makes sense in order to keep peace.

WRT to the situation in the United Methodist Church, it is a sad. My best friend is UM and he is very troubled by it. The gay issue is strongly argued by both sides. My understanding is the OT declares it a sin, but then we have the concept that God loves us all and that we should also love everyone. Likely a gross simplification...correct me if I am wrong. In this case, the Bible is used to argue and justify both sides.

I do not believe in the inerrancy of the Bible and this case is one reason. This should not be a gray area, yet it is. Either the Bible is contradictory at times, or it is 100% correct and the inspired word of God. We either do not understand it, or do not wish to understand it if it does not fit our desired narrative. Thus the "need" for hundreds of denominations. Men have corrupted churches in the past and will continue to do so. I fear man has corrupted the Bible as well, either by omission of certain books, through translation, or by modification.

It is sad.

[Ickisrulz]

The gay issue is strongly argued by both sides. My understanding is the OT declares it a sin, but then we have the concept that God loves us all and that we should also love everyone. Likely a gross simplification...correct me if I am wrong. In this case, the Bible is used to argue and justify both sides.

I do not believe in the inerrancy of the Bible and this case is one reason. This should not be a gray area, yet it is. Either the Bible is contradictory at times, or it is 100% correct and the inspired word of God. We either do not understand it, or do not wish to understand it if it does not fit our desired narrative. Thus the "need" for hundreds of denominations. Men have corrupted churches in the past and will continue to do so. I fear man has corrupted the Bible as well, either by omission of certain books, through translation, or by modification.

Homosexual behavior was a stoning offense under the Law. We know the Law doesn't apply to Christians, but this moral issue gives us an idea of what God does not want us to do.

Paul in the New Testament lumps the sin of homosexual behavior in with lists of other sins which cannot be practiced by individuals expecting to inherit eternal life. It's significant that fornication is included in Paul's listed sins. Traditionally, churches have been more tolerant of fornicators than homosexuals. This was not so with Paul.

With the recent acceptance of homosexuals by society, some churches have felt the need to change as well. This is good when it involves welcoming people into the congregation. But when a church claims homosexual behavior is OK with God, performs marriage ceremonies and ordains practicing homosexual clergy, it is ignoring the Bible's warnings. This, of course, is taking Paul's (the Bible) word on the matter as eternally valid.

There are some Christians who see the Bible differently. They see the Bible's prohibitions on homosexual behavior as a product of the original audience's time (e.g., see Paul's comments about long hair on a man). Since we are in another time, maybe the prohibitions don't apply to us. Who is correct?

God's guidance is given to man because he loves us and wants us to avoid as much pain as possible. So one question we could ask is, "Does homosexuality harm its practitioners today?" If a behavior is harmful to the one who does it or other people, it is a sin--plain and simple.

God loves all the people he created. He welcomes them into his family. However, because of his love he cannot allow them to live a life mastered by sin. This is the old "Love the sinner, hate the sin" idea. Churches are supposed to behave in the same way. Paul chewed out the Corinthians for not confronting and dealing with sin openly engaged in by its members. In my judgement churches that condone homosexual behavior are not doing their job.

[1hole]

Homosexuality is condemned in both the OT and NT. In fact, it's decried more in the NT than the OT so that argument falls flat.

Congregations deciding sin is not sin for a "newer, more cosmopolitian group like itself" is nothing new, it's been going on since soon after the Flood. There's no rational reason to think any man or group of men has yet been given the right to declare any point of sin in the Bible no longer valid. (see I Cor 5)

ALL scripture is inspired by God and delivered to men by the Holy Spirit. Therefore, there should be no higher value automatically given to the red letter parts than what Paul/Mark/Peter/John, etc., say.

The Bible, in its original form, did not contradict itself. But man's comprehension and application of some parts of it often does. If something appears contradictory then the reader simply isn't paying attention to the whole of scripture; keep reading, studying and praying about it until it's clear.

Not every untruth is a lie. Like other sins, lying is a matter of the speaker's heart, or motivation, and God measures the heart.

Lies are known untruths told to cause harm to others, like our dominant Democrat "news" people constantly speaking lies about the President and conservatives. Therefore Christians may safely tell the Gestapo we don't know where Anne Frank lives and tell a homely fat lady she looks nice today even tho neither is true because no harm is done. An untruth done that way, means the Franks could live and the fat lady will be uplifted, not cruelly beaten down by some false understanding of a semi-rigid truth. Therefore, even though both stories are untrue, they're told to do good, not evil. They are nowhere close to being a mean, slanderous "false witness against a neighbor" ... and unkind harm IS exactly what God hates!

[dtknowles]

All you bacon eaters are going to hell.

Tim

[dverna]

Ickisrulz and 1hole, thank you for your posts. Clarity helps.

This is derailing Tim's thread so I will start another.

Sorry Tim...my bad.

[dtknowles]

Ickisrulz and 1hole, thank you for your posts. Clarity helps.

This is derailing Tim's thread so I will start another.

Sorry Tim...my bad.

I see you started your other thread but I don't mind if after a number of posts if one of my thread drifts. Sometimes I like where they drift too.

Tim

[cainttype]

So.... If after several times of my 5 year old granddaughter being scolded by her “Nonna” (grandma) for not picking up her crayons when she’s done, she finishes coloring, grabs her books, stuffs her colors quickly into the box, and makes a hasty exit to play outside with her best friend...
Grandma is later sweeping after the playtime is over and the two children are settling down for a sleep-over, when from under the couch (where my granddaughter was coloring earlier) a white crayon that was missed in haste rolls out into view....
“Nonna” lifts the crayon with her thumb and forefinger, looks across it in that “”caught you” manner all children are familiar with, and asks, “Is this your’s???”....
The 5 year old, sure she’d made a valiant effort to police her play area, nervously answers, “No, Nonna”... Knowing full well she was busted, but struggling with how the crayon escaped her earlier, she utters a “white lie” in her confusion...

On the other side of the world, a serial child molesting, child murdering, psychopath is enjoying a fresh bowl of soup he just made out of his last 5 year old victim.....

Suddenly, the World ends... BEFORE either can “ask for forgiveness”, or repent their “sins”.

Are both denied entrance into Heaven?
Does anyone actually believe:
1)ALL sins are equal.
2)ALL lies are sins.
3)God sees ALL sins as “the same”
...???

If you answered “Yes” to those three questions, I am glad that I will never agree with you.
I’ll continue to believe God “Judges” because all things are NOT equal... There would be NO need for judgement if the criteria described by some here were God’s view on the question... “Heaven” would be a very lonely place, and practically empty when it’s over.

Use a little common sense, please.

[1hole]

im.....

Suddenly, the World ends... BEFORE either can “ask for forgiveness”, or repent their “sins”.

Are both denied entrance into Heaven?
Does anyone actually believe:
1)ALL sins are equal.
2)ALL lies are sins.
3)God sees ALL sins as “the same”
...???

1) No
2) No
3) No

It's men, nor God who are legalistic fools - "Break the Law and you die!" is foolish. Above all else, God judges the heart and there is no evil intent or harm to anyone in your examples.

Truth is, not all un-truths are lies; the Commandment says not to bear false witness against someone, meaning a lie is something that causes harm to the innocent. Ergo, your examples are not sins and God knows the difference if some men do not.

Common sense is an uncommon virtue in men and the common answers on "lies" to those questions seem to bring out the more nonsensical errors of legalistic men better than most.