Penetration

[Good Cheer]

As relates to designing boolits, a few years ago I tested a few different nose designs in a .41 caliber percussion revolver to see what's what.
254052
With the same charge of powder the semi-wadcutter and round-flat point were best. The wadcutter was of course the worst.
Any how, got me to thinking, the advent of smokeless and magnums, the introduction of designs other than the round-flat noses that had previously pretty much been the universal constant. It's interesting to look back at how things evolved.

[longbow]

It is!

What I find amazing is the number of different mould designs that used to be offered versus what is available today. For the most part I am referring mostly to Ideal as that is the most widely published info I can find.

For instance there are:

- 17 moulds listed for .25 cal. rifles
- 36 moulds listed for .30 cal. to .303 cal. rifles
- 19 moulds listed for .457 cal. rifles
- 8 moulds listed for .44 Russian
- 10 moulds listed for various .38 cal. handguns

all in the Ideal Handbook 1900!

And in the Ideal Handbook 1929:

- 9 moulds for .38 Special
- 27 moulds for .30 cal. to .303 cal. rifles!!!
- 12 moulds listed for .44 cal. handgun
- 10 moulds listed for .457 cal. rifles

After Lyman took over the mould selection was reduced:

Lyman Ideal Handbook No. 40:

- 8 moulds for .38 Special
- 16 moulds for .30 cal. to .303 cal. rifles
- 9 moulds for .44 Cal. handguns
- 5 moulds listed for .457 cal. rifle

Current Lyman listings:

- 7 moulds for .38/.357 cal. handguns
- 10 moulds for .30 cal. to .303 cal. rifles
- 6 moulds for .44 cal.
- 10 moulds for .457 cal. rifle

Mostly the mould selection has steadily dropped. An exception is .45 cal. rifle where it appears Lyman has added some new designs for BP cartridges and brought back the collar button.

Not sure that all the old designs were needed but variety is nice.

It seems that there were mostly round nose designs for handgun and many pointy designs for rifles up to .30 cal. anyway. Not so nowadays. Boolit designs have changed from the days when guns were more common and utilitarian to now. For instance, Ideal used to offer express bullets in most rifle calibers from .22 to .50 cal. These were lighter weight boolits with generally very large HP cavities. Also, much more selection of bullet style and available calibers back in the 1800's and early 1900's than now.

Longbow

[Dragonheart]

Yes fewer off the shelf mold designs and fewer bullet casters. Look at all the old H&G molds that are coming up for sale and selling now for less than they originally sold for. The old timers like myself are dying off and the younger generation has no desire to cast bullets since most have been brainwashed into thinking firearms are some evil entity. The poor ********* are destined to experience what evil truly is when all the firearms are in the hands of evil people.

[Petander]

When did harder antimony alloys come available for home casters?

I was shooting pure lead 38 Special wadcutters today, thinking about alloys while observing some slugs I found. Nowadays it's easy to get penetration,even these wadcutters will penetrate when cast hard.

https://i.postimg.cc/GtMCRBwD/IMG-20200102-191841-148.jpg

[OS OK]

I'm having a good time collecting some of the old discontinued designs. Lately got a 358430 200 grain RN w/PB, great looking profile loaded in the old .38S.

The one on the left... https://i.imgur.com/HwUOjHT.jpg

Shot it the other day against a metal plate taped onto a milk jug of water, a j-box lid for electrical box covers.
This was Iso @ 11 bhn with +1% Sn added. I am amazed how that little fattie traveling at 772fps did.


https://i.imgur.com/NzDXdjD.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/ATdbGKR.jpg

I shot this 200 gr. @ 772fps into 5 milk jugs prior to this above shot & it penetrated all 5 jugs then destroyed itself in my steel backstop.
It is the old Police Special load they named the 'Pelvis Breaker'


https://i.imgur.com/51falNt.jpg

[Petander]

OS OK,great pics,great bullet.

I think I want one.

[longbow]

While I can't disagree with Dragonheart's statements about youth not being interested and that guns are no longer considered an acceptable common "tool" almost everyone had, but due to shear population growth I think there has to be more casters now than in 1900. No?

We also seem to have more mould makers now than there have been for many years as well. Not sure how many there were in the late 1800's/early 1900's. In those days I think at least some gunmakers also made moulds for their guns but those would generally not be high volume production like Ideal. I look at the mould makers we have now and the list is pretty long. Off the top of my head:

- Lee
- Lyman
- SAECO
- RCBS
- Arsenal
- Old West
- Brooks
- Mountain Molds
- NOE
- MP Molds (Mihec)
- CBE

Lee, Lyman, RCBS and SAECO are likely the main suppliers of moulds... kinda the "big box" companies.

Who's got some info here?

And yes, great pics OS OK! Pics are good! I like your powder coat, that looks really nice!

Petander:

Not sure of exact dates but I have a copy of the Kynoch Paradox bullet drawing from 1924 and the alloy listed is 98% lead, 2% antimony.

Okay, you made me curious so I looked... in 1784 a bullet alloy of 10% to 13% antimony was developed by British General Henry Shrapnel. So there you go, antimony/lead alloys have been used in boolits for 200+ years.

As Good Cheer notes, it is interesting to see boolit designs over the years from round ball and conical muzzleloader boolits to the amazing variety of boolit designs Ideal listed in their early catalogues to what we see now. Far fewer designs now and far less calibers that commercial moulds are available for. I have to think that the remaining designs have survived due to performance on targets or terminal performance on game. That and if a mould is selling for whatever reason the company will just keep making it.

I wonder how many mould makers and boolit designs have come and gone? Like I said, the most info available seems to be Ideal/Lyman going back in history but there have been other big mould makers too like Ohaus, Belding and Mull, H&G. There must have been English and European mould makers as well.

Interesting stuff.

Longbow

[Good Cheer]

Oh golly gosh, the good ol' days!
In '73 Lyman had eight designs for the .41 Mag with two of them having a selection of weights.

This .41 I'm itchin' to try out in the percussion revolver, the Charter Arms snubbie and the NEF "rook rifle".
254113

There's an old design Lyman had, #410214 (a multi-groove semi-round nosed almost flat wadcutter), that a member here was exceedingly kind and allowed me to borrow. Some day perhaps I get to have my very own!

[longbow]

Good Cheer... are you bent on an original 410214 mould or just being able to cast that boolit? And in what weight? The mould chart shows it available in 101 gr., 141 gr. and 181 gr.

The boolit has a flat point so may be a nose pour design for the old Ideal Perfection adjustable weight mould... though the info I have doesn't show that boolit and I haven't found any indication that Lyman made the Perfection Mould after taking Ideal over. Likely it was a standard split mould and Lyman just set the cherry at different depths to produce different length/weight cavities.

If you just want a mould I can model the boolit for you then you can get Tom at Accurate to make a mould. It won't be an original Lyman but it will be that boolit in a quality mould.

I have a couple of decent graphics I found of the 410214 boolit but it seems to be elusive. Do you have any boolits or can you borrow the mould for pics? If so photos can be digitized and traced then modeled. I did that for Dale53 when he ran the group buy for the Mihec H&G #503. Even if there are no boolits, moulds or detailed graphics I likely have a decent enough old pic to use.

So, let me know if you want me to model that boolit then you can get a mould cut by Accurate.

Longbow

[MostlyLeverGuns]

Online shopping has made a great difference in mold shopping and availabilty. In the 1960's and 70's catalog shopping and gunshops were the places you bought molds, mostly your choice was Lyman iron. Of course Lee came along and changed the dynamic of the whole reloading business, especially bullet molds. In the 90's, the Internet took off and the whole mold buying experience changed. The CNC machines changed most manufacturing involving machined metal products, CNC shops started making molds, custom, semi-custom and production. In comparative terms, an NOE 5 cavity mold setup to cast solid or hollowpoint bullets cost less than a Lyman single cavity in 1965, the Lyman could be undersize, oversize or just right (I was there). The NOE mold will cast the size expected. We are in the 'GOOD OLD DAYS' of reloading.

[nagantguy]

Online shopping has made a great difference in mold shopping and availabilty. In the 1960's and 70's catalog shopping and gunshops were the places you bought molds, mostly your choice was Lyman iron. Of course Lee came along and changed the dynamic of the whole reloading business, especially bullet molds. In the 90's, the Internet took off and the whole mold buying experience changed. The CNC machines changed most manufacturing involving machined metal products, CNC shops started making molds, custom, semi-custom and production. In comparative terms, an NOE 5 cavity mold setup to cast solid or hollowpoint bullets cost less than a Lyman single cavity in 1965, the Lyman could be undersize, oversize or just right (I was there). The NOE mold will cast the size expected. We are in the 'GOOD OLD DAYS' of reloading.

We are indeed in the Golden age of guns bullets and boolits and molds

[Petander]

Online shopping has made a great difference in mold shopping and availabilty.

Oh well...

254125

[Good Cheer]

Good Cheer... are you bent on an original 410214 mould or just being able to cast that boolit? And in what weight? The mould chart shows it available in 101 gr., 141 gr. and 181 gr.

The boolit has a flat point so may be a nose pour design for the old Ideal Perfection adjustable weight mould... though the info I have doesn't show that boolit and I haven't found any indication that Lyman made the Perfection Mould after taking Ideal over. Likely it was a standard split mould and Lyman just set the cherry at different depths to produce different length/weight cavities.

If you just want a mould I can model the boolit for you then you can get Tom at Accurate to make a mould. It won't be an original Lyman but it will be that boolit in a quality mould.

I have a couple of decent graphics I found of the 410214 boolit but it seems to be elusive. Do you have any boolits or can you borrow the mould for pics? If so photos can be digitized and traced then modeled. I did that for Dale53 when he ran the group buy for the Mihec H&G #503. Even if there are no boolits, moulds or detailed graphics I likely have a decent enough old pic to use.

So, let me know if you want me to model that boolit then you can get a mould cut by Accurate.

Longbow

Hey Longbow.
I'm hoping to find an original some day.
Thank you much though! That is a very kind offer.

[Savvy Jack]

The old timers like myself are dying off and the younger generation has no desire to cast bullets since most have been brainwashed into thinking firearms are some evil entity.

I disagree, the poor ******* are brainwashed into thinking that fancy factory named jacketed hollowpoints are always superior. :cbpour:

254213 254214 254215 254216 254217

[longbow]

You are welcome.

If you change your mind let me know. It really isn't a lot of work to model a boolit and I am sure Tom can cut a mould.

From my "investigation" it appears that boolit is a Lyman design as I do not see it in any of the copies of the old Ideal info I have or on line. It may have had a short production life as I only find it on one Lyman chart. I did find one graphic of just the boolit that looks like it is from an old catalogue but it doesn't appear in The Ideal 1929 Handbook or Ideal #38 (1951) so moulds may be pretty rare.

Good luck in your quest! Like I said, if you change your mind let me know. I would be happy to help.

Longbow

[OS OK]

Oh well...

254125

Very nice score! Your going to love that lil fattie!

[Petander]

Very nice score! Your going to love that lil fattie!

Yeah I think I will. I've been looking at these for a while,for some reason I want to go the vintage route first. Everything else in my 38 Special shooring is old as well. The Real Things,you know the feeling.

But let's talk modern: what powder(s) are you using for that beautiful granite-like colour?

[Oyeboten]

As relates to designing boolits, a few years ago I tested a few different nose designs in a .41 caliber percussion revolver to see what's what.
254052
With the same charge of powder the semi-wadcutter and round-flat point were best. The wadcutter was of course the worst.
Any how, got me to thinking, the advent of smokeless and magnums, the introduction of designs other than the round-flat noses that had previously pretty much been the universal constant. It's interesting to look back at how things evolved.

What Percussion Revolver is this?

Can you post us some images of it?

Also, what is the Mold Number for the Middle Boolit there which has the little "Nose"..?

Thanks!

[OS OK]

Yeah I think I will. I've been looking at these for a while,for some reason I want to go the vintage route first. Everything else in my 38 Special shooring is old as well. The Real Things,you know the feeling.

But let's talk modern: what powder(s) are you using for that beautiful granite-like colour?

Sorry, I haven't been following this thread...I use gloss black and white mixed 50/50. Both powders I think are Sherman Williams I get from a PC Painting Contractor in pound baggies w/no label. I think that the two powders are different types of poly. Wish I could be more exact but this color was an accident I did prolly a year after getting those baggies of PC.

[Outpost75]

+1 for Savvy Jack. Bullet of caliber that starts with a "4" weighing 1/2 oz., cast of alloy not harder than 10 BHN, with meplat not smaller than 0.6 of the bullet diameter, driven at 900 fps from a 5" revolver or 1200 fps from a 20-inch Cowboy gun, does all you need. Yes, I am speaking of. 44-40 black powder load equivalent. Have killed literal truckloads of game with it.

[Savvy Jack]

I performed several gel tests a while back using some bullets John Kort, aka w44wcf cast to his specs and sent me for testing.

Some 42798 cast 75/1. Impact velocity at 50 yards was 1,162fps from a 26" barrel
254748

254749

Expands just like a hollowpoint.

254750


The below lead bullet was one of the soft lead tests while the below jacketed hollowpoint was tested with a thumping load of 2400.
254751
Here is an example of lead bullets expanding just as well as jacketed hollowpoints. Once the velocity tapers off to a slow brisk walk, the bullets, especially hard casts...will not expand and will penetrate the broadside of a horse.

[Savvy Jack]

On a side note, here is a slower designed 44 special hollowpoint used in the 44-40.

Forget the caliber used and concentrate of the design and velocity needed for desired penetration.

44-40
254753 254754

254755

254757 254756

[Savvy Jack]

The Winchester JSP type design is a perfect design for hunting if you want a jacketed bullet. When fast, it expands like a hollowpoint....as it slows down, it penetrates deep.

254758 254759 254760

[Good Cheer]

What Percussion Revolver is this?

Can you post us some images of it?

Also, what is the Mold Number for the Middle Boolit there which has the little "Nose"..?

Thanks!

Here's the revolver. Shown dirty from shooting, a .36 reworked to use .41 molds, courtesy of Mr. John Taylor.
http://i.imgur.com/eux7IeM.jpg (https://imgur.com/eux7IeM)

The middle mold is the Lyman/Ideal #41026 / 410026; huge lube grooves (good for black powder) and the nose tit is good fit for the ram.

[Savvy Jack]

Here's the revolver. Shown dirty from shooting, a .36 reworked to use .41 molds, courtesy of Mr. John Taylor.


The middle mold is the Lyman/Ideal #41026 / 410026; huge lube grooves (good for black powder) and the nose tit is good fit for the ram.

Good Cheer,

Just for kicks you can try shooting your loads into water jugs. Water is of course more dense than flesh and will cause a tad bit more bullet damage than flesh (gel) but is close enough for government work.
excited to see the results.

[Savvy Jack]

As relates to designing boolits, a few years ago I tested a few different nose designs in a .41 caliber percussion revolver to see what's what.
254052
With the same charge of powder the semi-wadcutter and round-flat point were best. The wadcutter was of course the worst.
Any how, got me to thinking, the advent of smokeless and magnums, the introduction of designs other than the round-flat noses that had previously pretty much been the universal constant. It's interesting to look back at how things evolved.

Absolutley,

The wadcutters are fun to shoot paper because they leave a nice clean hole. For flesh I would certainly use the LRNFP or the SWC.

Here is one of my hunting loads, it is the SWC but also makes nice clean holes in paper.
254756

[Good Cheer]

Good Cheer,

Just for kicks you can try shooting your loads into water jugs. Water is of course more dense than flesh and will cause a tad bit more bullet damage than flesh (gel) but is close enough for government work.
excited to see the results.

Yeah, you bet. Also use bundled up paper soaked in water so long that it swells and all the binder turns to slime gel. I tend to collect the paper until I need it, then bundle it up and submerge a couple of days. Used lined up jugs of water to slow down boolits to recover from the .458 muzzleloader. Had three jugs and then a big box of shredded paper suspended behind. Was quite a show! And it worked.
[smilie=w:

This was a soaked paper test block.
254781

[Oyeboten]

Here's the revolver. Shown dirty from shooting, a .36 reworked to use .41 molds, courtesy of Mr. John Taylor.
http://i.imgur.com/eux7IeM.jpg (https://imgur.com/eux7IeM)

The middle mold is the Lyman/Ideal #41026 / 410026; huge lube grooves (good for black powder) and the nose tit is good fit for the ram.

How interesting!

Does John Taylor do these conversions where I might have him do one for me?

What a nice idea!

[Good Cheer]

How interesting!

Does John Taylor do these conversions where I might have him do one for me?

What a nice idea!

I can only speak to conversions he has done for me.
This one is a .40 caliber (reworked .36 caliber 1851). Uses .41 round ball.
And I love it.
254843

[Oyeboten]

I can only speak to conversions he has done for me.
This one is a .40 caliber (reworked .36 caliber 1851). Uses .41 round ball.
And I love it.
254843

It's a womderful idea...

I do not have any .36 / Colt Navy Revolvers ( only a few .44s ) but, I'll get one just to have it converted to .41.

I have an old Mold for a shortish .410 'Can of Beans' Wadcutter which would be perfect for this.

[Petander]

358430 is here!

https://i.postimg.cc/kMcWB7C8/IMG-20200202-110210-868.jpg

[Taterhead]

358430 is here!

https://i.postimg.cc/kMcWB7C8/IMG-20200202-110210-868.jpg

Very cool. Congratulations!