One foot in the machine shop.

[Mal Paso]

I was in Harbor Freight last month and got some coupons on the way out. I've noticed lately Central Machinery is a brand that is excluded on most of their 20% and 25% off coupons. One of the store coupons had no such restriction. I've had my eye on the small mill someone here recommended. Vehicles have absorbed most of my cash but last night I thought I'd try the coupon, just to see if it would work. Rejected. Maybe it's something in the word No. I sent an email and got one back today saying all coupons exclude Central Machinery but if you have questions call. So I did, they were open today, I explained the situation and he said "didn't I just talk to you". I offered the coupon, he said, no you're good, I can take care of that for you. I was stuck then, no way to back out, and there is a mill coming.

[GARD72977]

Good fo you...

[Texas by God]

Chillin’ & millin’ soon. Sounds Fun.

[tbx-4]

Mal,
Curious which model did you get? I've been looking at Harbor Freight, Little Machines and Grizzly but haven't pulled the trigger... yet.

[country gent]

I have the central machinery 7X12 lathe. a decent machine its accurate and easy to run but is a little underpowered and the dials read direct movement so in the cross feed and compound .001 movement is .002 on size.. The mills shouldn't have this issue though. While not as heavy and solid as a industrial machine, a lot of good work can be done on them. I believe my little lathe is listed at around 70 lbs so moving isn't a big problem.

You will want a heavy table for the mill to set on. On locking casters it could be rolled out to use and out of the way when not being used.
What are the spindle speeds on your machine? Table size and travel?

[Mal Paso]

country gent,

The spindle speed is 0-2500 rpm in 2 ranges. It's gear driven so maybe a reduction gear, can't quite see in the drawing. The table is 15-7/8 in. L X 3-11/16 W. The travel is not listed. The spindle has an R8 taper. My thought was to mount it on a rolling tool chest I already have. The combined weight should be over a thousand pounds.

Thanks for the interest. My shop teacher was a Psychologist. I managed to find my was around sheet metal and welding but never got to lathes and mills. I have done light milling in emergencies with a drill press. Thanks for the feedback on the HF Lathe. I was looking at that as well but I may want something larger. You never really know until you take the first step.

tbx-4

The model number is 44991 and with the coupon I got it for $593 after taxes and shipping. I think they were being sneaky knowing I can't pass a good deal.

[pworley1]

Now for the tooling. Congratulations.

[country gent]

Mal Paso,
As I said I have the 7x12 mini lathe. Its accurate and fairly easy to use and learn. I was a tool maker for 35 years and Im not used to having to take .015-.020 roughing passes on a part. Im used to .100-.250 range roughing. Its just not what Im used to. But It does do the job. Im used to lathed with 3 hp-10hp motors on them and mills with 2 hp-25hp. The little lathe will do a lot of work and is great for polishing and fine work. The mill should be very handy and run end mills from 1/8"- 1/2" pretty well. with the speed range.

I have seen them mounted on roll away tool boxes with good results, I would recommend a piece of 1" plywood between the Sheet metal top and machine. Some of those boxes have pretty light tops, another issue will be the height when mounted there. Most tool boxes tops are at a comfortable height for use the mill may be to high on it. Being able to get it out in the open will make cleaning up a lot easier. Also watch those mill chops they are sharp and pointy they stick in everything ( fingers hands arms). Last is do a few fun projects in wood is more forgiving and easier to work.

[Bloodman14]

Interesting; I just ordered a mill, lathe and the goodies to make them work. Hoping to go into business on the side for myself. Arthritis is really slowing me down.

[kens]

For tooling and support of the small mills & lathes, try this place:

https://littlemachineshop.com/default.php

[largom]

Does this machine come with a vice for the table?

[Alstep]

For what it's worth, there's a huge model engineering show in central PA on the weekend of Jan 17-19. There's lots of vendors there selling new & used machinery & tooling. For those of you in the area, might be worthwhile to check it out.
https://www.cabinfeverexpo.com/

[oldred]

In addition to my BridgePort I also have one of those little mills and I still use it a LOT, it's just so darn handy! HOWEVER, be warned there are numerous mods that really should be done to this mill to make it truly usable otherwise it can be very frustrating to use. There are websites dedicated to these very popular mills that address the problems with them and they have many different fixes for them as devised by members of the site(s). First off these things are limp as the proverbial noodle and will flex and vibrate under load leading to milling errors and dulled end mills, Little Machine shop sells "fixes" for these problems but fortunately you can fix every problem that plagues these machines without resorting to buying the "fix kits". First off as CG suggested mount it solidly on a heavy table, a tool box would be a poor choice no matter how heavy if the metal top the mill would be sitting on is thin metal. Next the column needs to be braced with another piece of fairly heavy metal, just google how to do this and dozens of methods of doing so will pop up, it's fairly simple and most times cost is free with a bit of scrounging. Then there will be the dreaded (and well known) head drop problem that has several "kits" available for the fix ranging from various spring gimmicks to gas struts but all you need is a couple of small cheap pulleys from the local hardware and a piece of small diameter wire rope plus a few pieces of scrap to use for weights. I won't get into the "how to" for this but it's easy enough to find on the 'net. This counter weight set-up works waaay better than those expen$ive gas strut gimmicks, is easy to do and costs next to nothing. I fixed every single one of these well known problems with these little mills in one day and for less than $25 total so you don't need to buy that stuff from LMS! Once the mods are done that little outfit becomes a decent mill that will have never ending uses, like I said I have a BP in the same shop and I still use my little mill a lot because it's so handy and for some small jobs it can actually be better than the BP.

BTW, another mod that's nice (and extremely so!) but not really necessary is to replace those NOISY and troublesome plastic drive gears with a belt and a couple of pulleys. While the gears work ok they are known to fail and are noisy while the belt drive is quite and makes for very smooth operation. These little mills should be thought of as project themselves as they come out of the box but with a little effort and a bit of scrounging all these mods are easy and can cost next to nothing but each one is DEFIANTLY worth the effort and makes these machines way more fun to use.

[Mal Paso]

Thanks oldred!


Does this machine come with a vice for the table?

No vice or tooling just a drill chuck.

I noticed the starter kits at the Little Machine Shop.

[Mal Paso]

The mill arrived today. The table travel is 9 1/8 x 4 1/4. It is a brushed motor with 2 speed gear drive. Not sure if the motor is DC but there is a power supply with an always on fan on the back of the mast. There are belt drive upgrades and a couple guys have built belt drive to treadmill motor mills. I see the issue with the mast tilt and will make a brace. I'll live with the torsion lift for now. The main thing is getting tooling. I could easily spend twice the price of the mill. I'll start with a set of collets and a mill or 2 now that I confirmed 7/16x20 threads on the collets. I have a dial indicator and holder to check square with the bed. I think that's the place to start.

[FLINTNFIRE]

I want to say I wish you luck and lots of fun , I wanted a mini mill so many years , and after my divorce I bought myself a grizzly knee mill , not the biggest machine but bigger then what I had been dreaming of , and I will say tooling , and all the odds and ends are costly , but can be added . It was this site Castboolits that promoted my want for the mill , all the threads and so many members here with projects and advice and all the threads , fueled my desire , just wish I lived in the country and had more electrical as I would love to add a lathe , and yes I am looking and sooner or later there will be one . So in closing I say make what your heart wants to make with your lathe and enjoy the satisfaction that comes from doing something for yourself.

[oldred]

The mill arrived today. The table travel is 9 1/8 x 4 1/4. It is a brushed motor with 2 speed gear drive. Not sure if the motor is DC but there is a power supply with an always on fan on the back of the mast. There are belt drive upgrades and a couple guys have built belt drive to treadmill motor mills. I see the issue with the mast tilt and will make a brace. I'll live with the torsion lift for now. The main thing is getting tooling. I could easily spend twice the price of the mill. I'll start with a set of collets and a mill or 2 now that I confirmed 7/16x20 threads on the collets. I have a dial indicator and holder to check square with the bed. I think that's the place to start.


That motor is DC and it's a darn good motor, I certainly wouldn't consider changing mine for a treadmill motor. That mill has all the power you will need for any milling operation you're likely to be doing (if you run out of power using an end mill you are going way to big!) but large drills (much over a half inch) may be a problem. Besides if you use a more powerful motor that gear drive is going to fail so you would need to use the belt drive for sure, honestly that thing has all the power you need. For milling that head drop problem likely won't be noticeable but drilling is another story, when drilling you will be pulling down against the rack backlash and when the bit reaches the bottom of the work piece it will overcome the torsion system load and pull the head down allowing the bit to snag, this is more of a problem with larger drill bits but I have had it happen on bits so small they would break when the snag occurred. It's a really annoying problem and usually the first one addressed by new owners, there are various "cures" out there and while some guys seem to like the gas strut outfit sold by LMC I found it to be little better (if at all!) than the spring system my mill originally came with. Mine is an earlier model that used the coil spring and the fella I got it from had bought that expensive gas strut outfit but never got around to putting it on, I replaced my spring with it but found it to be very little improvement. All of these springs, struts, etc have a common problem, resistance changes with movement of the head (in spite of what some will tell you this is true of the gas strut also) but the weight and pulley system remains constant throughout the length of head travel. While you will still be pulling against the rack backlash using the weight system the weight will overcome the tendency for the bit to pull the head down, the amount of weight required makes for a comfortable pull on the handle and does not seem like a heavy load at all. The weight system just feels "right" unlike the springy and/or mushy feel of the other attempts to cure this problem using springs etc, and unlike the others it really works with any size drill bit this machine can handle! The weight/pulley system is the best way by far to fix this problem and it's easy to rig up but unlike the options sold online it costs next to nothing and works better to boot.


For tooling go to Ebay and search "end mill lots", most times you will not find much but often you will find some real steals! Stay away from the imported end mills except for the Israeli and Korean stuff (most Chinese mills really are junk) and for the most part any used mills, lots of people trying to unload their junk on Ebay. However there are a few sellers who sell used end mills, usually in lots of 5 or ten, that were used in the plastics industry and while these are "used" they look brand new! For instance I bought twenty RobbJack 5/16" DLC carbide mills for what worked out to about $4 each, these end mills are over FIFTY bucks each at MSC and my $4 end mills looked brand new and came in their original plastic sleeves! There is a seller who has 5/16" FastCut brand double end coated high speed end mills in lots of ten for $21 with shipping and while these are listed as used they are used on one end only and that end is still sharp, the last batch I got looked brand new on both ends and at $2.10 each for a mill that lists for over $25 dollars each it is a steal!!! I am not sure where he gets these but it's likely some sort of industrial setting like the RobbJack carbides used with plastic, they are used for a certain length of time and then replaced regardless of condition. Also there is another seller who has 3/8" double end HSS end mills in lots of eight for about $23 with shipping, these too are "used" but you won't know it by looking at them, these are Korean made and while not the quality or as good a deal as the FastCut brand seller they are still a bargain for quality double end mills.

I would recommend avoiding carbide tooling, especially until you get comfortable with this machine, since it is quite expensive and extremely easy to break. Carbide is extremely hard and heat resistant so it can be run much faster at greater feed rates and still stay sharp a lot longer than HSS but this is ONLY when done so under ideal conditions. Carbide is very brittle and chips quite easily thus it is very unforgiving of even the slightest mistake plus it needs a machine that provides a lot of rigidity, you might be able to use some very small carbide mills but even if you're careful about mistakes chatter due to lack of rigidity in that little mill will kill any carbide larger than about 3/16". Check out Ebay as you really can get some real deals there but it takes watching and waiting, I do this and I have hundreds of dollars worth of high quality tooling (a lot of it new!) that cost me pennies on the dollar.

[Shopdog]

Just make darn sure,the rest of your shop "upgrades" along with new equipment. Ventilation,sanitation,lighting,safety,and fire protection. A bag of play sand,fire extinguisher,and some kitty litter is a good start. Good luck,keep a keen eye on clean,safe,fun.

[MrWolf]

That sounds like a lot of work and I am concerned about your blood pressure and well being. Just ship everything to me and then you can just take a nap......[smilie=l:

[oldred]

Just make darn sure,the rest of your shop "upgrades" along with new equipment. Ventilation,sanitation,lighting,safety,and fire protection. A bag of play sand,fire extinguisher,and some kitty litter is a good start. Good luck,keep a keen eye on clean,safe,fun.

Yep, agree with all of that and let's add watch those long sleeves and no gloves! If you have long hair then it MUST be tied back or covered, I personally know one fella from many years ago (back in 1968 but when doesn't matter) who was nearly killed and lost over half his scalp due to long hair getting tangled in spinning work. He just leaned in close to look at something and it happened in an instant, some of the guys working with him said it happened so fast they couldn't even see exactly what happened as he was leaning over one second and the next he was tangled up in the chuck! Also there are some really scary videos on youtube about this sort of thing, there is one very explicit video that shows a guy get his sleeve caught in a spinning lathe. It is mind boggling just how fast it happens and what it can do but miraculously in this instance the guy got away with only minor injuries (probably a fatally injured pride however) but the video is shocking nonetheless. There's no reason for these things to happen as all it takes is a bit of common sense and an awareness for safety, respect what these machines are capable of (even the small ones) because they absolutely have no remorse about what they do to someone and do it they will if a moment of inattention gives them a chance!

[Mal Paso]

Thanks oldred, I had seen the head drop problem mentioned but did not understand. I am thinking a pulley rigged to the mast would leave it movable, or maybe a separate mast and counterweight attached to a rolling/locking base. Thanks for the info on the motor. If milling pays and I need a bigger mill I will go there. I've noticed some guys run short of outside projects and the shop becomes the project.

In my work I often need some part not available off the shelf. I have 4 kinds of welding available to make larger projects. It's the small bits I'm hoping the mill helps with.

I was an offset printing press operator for years. Had a supervisor the stuck his nose in everything and wore an unsecured tie. There Is No Justice.

[oldred]

That weight system is only as elaborate as you want to make it, I simply made a couple of small brackets to mount 2 1/2" pulleys from a local hardware. One goes on top of the mast slightly protruding over the front and the other is mounted on the mast stiffener that had I added previously but it only needs to allow the cable to travel over the mast and down behind the mill, basically the cable attaches to the top of the milling head then goes up and over the top of the mill through both pulleys then down the back side with the free hanging weight attached. Just add weight until the pull on the feed handle feels about the same as it does with the torsion system when it's all the way down then it should be just about right, of course weight can be added or deleted to adjust.

One set-up I saw that was similar to mine (he came to look at mine when working on his) was a really neat mod, he wanted his new mill to look neat so he used basically the same set-up I have but he made simple covers to go over the pulleys and cable and the weight is contained in a metal box he welded together for this rig to contain some lead weights. He painted the whole thing to match his mill and with that neatly welded and matched metal box sliding up and down the back of the mill it looks as if it could have come from the factory that way.

[oldred]

One more thing just in case you might be wondering about some of the gadgets sold by LMS, that table powerfeed is total JUNK and that's capitalized because that thing deserves it! When I bought this little mill it had that piece of junk attached to it but the roll pin that locks the drive to the worm gear was removed, I soon found out why. With this thing fully attached and functional the feed handle becomes useless and table travel is totally dependent on the motor drive which even in high speed is woefully slow if you need to traverse the table which is normally quite often. Then in operation speed can be erratic and it tends to start out with a lurch instead of entering a cut smoothly so it has to be started well ahead of the cut and even then there are no guarantees, obviously this leads to frustration at best and broken tooling at worst. I fiddled around with that thing for a day or so then in frustration I removed it and tossed the whole apparatus in the garbage!

After cooling off from my mad spell however I retrieved it and salvaged that little DC motor and power supply and it now resides happily in my greenhouse where it's duty is to open and close ventilation panels. :mrgreen:

[bangerjim]

I got rid of the NOISY!!!!!! gear drive and went with the upgraded belt drive that Little Machine Shop sells. GREAT addition. Quiet and easy to install and use. Still uses the 90VDC variable speed motor that came with the mill. I have been using this mill for over 8 years for small jobs and it is good.....for the price. Picked mine up for under $400 waaay back when the DID accept 25% coupons on SALE prices! Picked mine up right at the store 4 blocks from my house.

Have fun!

[oldred]

Picked mine up right at the store 4 blocks from my house.


You have a Harbor Freight only 4 blocks from your house?????


I couldn't imagine such a thing as having one that close to me! I mean how would I get anything done and how would I be able to save money to pay bills and buy groceries? What a nightmare! :groner:


Joking aside I love the place, I learned what was good and what wasn't and while some things are junk some others are real bargains. I bought my lathe there, a 14x40 heavy lathe that is EXACTLY the same machine as the Enco 14x40 and the Precision Mathews YCL14x40 along with a couple of others under different brand names. All the others were perilously close to $7,000 with the cheapest being the Enco $5,999, HF was in the process of phasing out the sale of machines that big and they now no longer have them. The thing was on clearance and they let me use a 25% coupon plus shipping to the store for pick-up (it took 6 days) is free so after paying Tn sales tax I walked out with a receipt totaling $2,647! A guy in line there was talking to his buddy and I heard him laughing at me for spending that much at HF but now 12 years later the joke is on him. The only problem I have had with that lathe is a broken control handle and that was caused by my backing into it with my truck so I can't blame the lathe.

Yep some folks laugh at us buying from HF, but let'em laugh I love the place! :mrgreen:

[samari46]

I believe these lathes come with nylon gears, ditch them and check out little machineshop for steel ones,that alone will save you more than a few headaches right there. Ebco got bought out so try catalogs from Grizzly, Travers Tool and MSC Manhattan Supply Corp. They are free. In this day and age most shops have gone over to carbide tooling. I still grind my own from unground tool bits. %5 cobalt and 10% cobalt and some M2 for finishing. Prices have skyrocketed on all machine tooling and a greater number of the stuff is of course made In China. Stick with Starret,Brown and Sharp or Mitutoyo which is made in Japan. Your lubricating oils like spindle oil, way oil used on the milling table,and gearbox oil don't get just a quart. When I needed was oil, gearbox oil I went to a texaco dealer in town. Take a list of what you need and use the manufacturer suggestions and they should be able to convert yourlist into something that texaco either has on hand or get it for you. I like to keep my gear box clean and there is always some crap from the machining process in the gear box when they made your machine. I usually flush the crap and use a magnetic pickup to get any cast iron out of the gear box and flush it out with kerosene. get the good kerosene from lowe's,Home Depot it has been deoderized so you don't stink up your shop, its called K1 Kerosene. I bought 5 gallon pails of way oil and gearbox oil. I saved the orange jugs the pumice hand cleaner comes in and filled them up and marked them as to their contents. At the time they were about $50 for 5 gallons. If you decide to start saving jugs save the washing detergent ones. The pumice one's I have took a long time to rinse out and you don't want pumice in your lubricating oil. For cutting oil I use the old black stuff that you can get again at Lowe's or Home Depot. Comes in gallon jugs.And get some oilers. Hand operated and aren't expensive. Frank

[oldred]

I believe these lathes come with nylon gears, ditch them and check out little machineshop for steel ones,that alone will save you more than a few headaches right there. Ebco got bought out so try catalogs from Grizzly, Travers Tool and MSC Manhattan Supply Corp. They are free. In this day and age most shops have gone over to carbide tooling. I still grind my own from unground tool bits. %5 cobalt and 10% cobalt and some M2 for finishing. Prices have skyrocketed on all machine tooling and a greater number of the stuff is of course made In China. Stick with Starret,Brown and Sharp or Mitutoyo which is made in Japan. Your lubricating oils like spindle oil, way oil used on the milling table,and gearbox oil don't get just a quart. When I needed was oil, gearbox oil I went to a texaco dealer in town. Take a list of what you need and use the manufacturer suggestions and they should be able to convert yourlist into something that texaco either has on hand or get it for you. I like to keep my gear box clean and there is always some crap from the machining process in the gear box when they made your machine. I usually flush the crap and use a magnetic pickup to get any cast iron out of the gear box and flush it out with kerosene. get the good kerosene from lowe's,Home Depot it has been deoderized so you don't stink up your shop, its called K1 Kerosene. I bought 5 gallon pails of way oil and gearbox oil. I saved the orange jugs the pumice hand cleaner comes in and filled them up and marked them as to their contents. At the time they were about $50 for 5 gallons. If you decide to start saving jugs save the washing detergent ones. The pumice one's I have took a long time to rinse out and you don't want pumice in your lubricating oil. For cutting oil I use the old black stuff that you can get again at Lowe's or Home Depot. Comes in gallon jugs.And get some oilers. Hand operated and aren't expensive. Frank

Mostly good advice about the lathes but a couple of points here, the OP was talking about the very popular little mill so there are no gear boxes and the kit replaces the open plastic drive gears with a belt.

On the common and well known small lathes I have to take exception with replacing that plastic gear with metal (didn't know anyone even sold a metal one?), that plastic gear is plastic for a reason and if it breaks it should be replaced with another plastic one. All the other gears are metal so they didn't use that one plastic gear to "cheap-out" it's there as sort of a "fuse" and is meant as a sacrificial part to prevent major damage in case of a crash! These gears are not expensive, they're easy to find and easy to change but replace that gear with a metal one and the next crash could trash the lathe instead of that inexpensive easy to replace plastic gear, that's why it's plastic. That may seem to us to be a poor design for limiting damage but that's the way they chose to do it, sure beats doing nothing at all!

[WilNsc]

Since it looks like it takes an R8 collet, get some collet sets. Using end mills in a drill chuck will frustrate you to no end. My HF mill is an older version with MT2 taper, so I found a drawbar friendly MT2 to ER20 collet holder and I just use the ER collets. It improves the machine 1000%.

[Mal Paso]

I have a set of collets coming. I degreased the machine this morning and started setting it up. The drill chuck has .006" runout using a .500" pin in the chuck so I'll wait for the collets to adjust the mast. The upgrade metal gear set for this mill still retains 2 plastic gears as a safety and the 2 speed belt drive is not currently available so I'll run as is for now. Apparently my motor does not have the low end torque of the upgrade one so the mill needs a low speed.

[country gent]

The drill chuck run out can sometimes be adjusted out. First you need to know what spindle it has. threaded or Jacobs taper on the chuck. The threaded is what it is just not a good way to make changes there. The Jacobs Taper can sometimes be seated a little more and it trues up.

When we rebuilt the bigger jacobs chucks ( 1/8"-3/4" and bigger) the last step was to lap the jaws in to true parallel and concentric. This added a few thousandths on the lower end size but the chucks gripped much better.

Another thing to check is the square of the drill chuck insert it in spindle with pin 4-5" long and indicate up and down along the pin

[oldred]

Using end mills in a drill chuck will frustrate you to no end.


Actually most times it's much worse than frustration, using end mills in a drill chuck is a recipe for disaster and possible personal injury! Side loading a drill chuck mounted with a Jacobs taper will almost certainly cause the chuck to fall off during milling operations, usually sooner rather than later, and even if it's threaded onto the arbor held by a draw bar (most R8 arbors with a drill chuck are Jacobs taper for that chuck) it's still a very bad idea. Fortunately the OP won't have this problem to contend with as I see he has a set of collets coming.

[Mal Paso]

I only have pin gauges. What would be a good source for a precision pin 4-5 inches long?
Thanks!

After I find out if the chuck is cocked or the jaws are uneven I might try lapping the jaws.

[oldred]

I'll wait for the collets to adjust the mast.

the 2 speed belt drive is not currently available so I'll run as is for now.


When that belt drive becomes available it's a very nice upgrade if for nothing else just the noise reduction alone makes it worth it. However it is of course much more than that and does things like eliminate any backlash that might develop in the spindle due to sloppy gears (new gears are usually very tight however) but the nicest thing is how smooth it makes that little mill run, that's the best part of all!


While aligning that mast there's something I have done that's a real eye-opener, set your dial indicator to indicate the top of the mast itself then push against the top of the mast with just your finger, just for giggles and grins use your little finger, and notice how much it will deflect under such light pressure. It will move a LOT when pushing back on it even with just moderate finger pressure but it will even move side to side using the same pressure. It really is that flexible but fortunately it's fairly easy to fix and costs very little even if you have to buy a piece of metal to fix it with. This is the first fix I would suggest to someone since it can and will cause a lot of headaches not to mention dulled end mills due to chatter, the head drop problem is just an annoyance that a person can live with but chatter is something else again. But like I said already fixing this is usually cheap and easy.

[country gent]

A piece of ground drill rod will show it. A piece of brass rod to lap

[kywoodwrkr]

I keep my eyes open for tools which have cobalt in them or are desiginated m42(which is cobalt).
There are metals which are not entirely happy with carbide:oops:.
I am in amazement at what a versatile machinist carries around in their head about materials and feeds/speed.

[Mal Paso]

The collets came today. I put a .5 gauge pin in the 1/2" collet and read .002" runout. Put the gauge on the inside of the spindle and got .002" in the same spot.

Is .002" runout in the spindle something I should bring up with harbor freight? Something I can live with? Something I can fix? A new spindle is $75. Thanks!

[country gent]

Depends on how tight you want to work. >002 run out means at best a .500 end mill will cut .504 ( maybe a little more due to length). Another thing to look at is end play on the spindle. Most spindles have a means of setting end play and this also will affect run out. They adjust the outer race to the inner and set the end play and also the tapered bearings alignment

[Mal Paso]

The upper and lower bearings are sealed ball and end play is taken up with spacers. I'll see what end play is tomorrow.

If I replace the spindle I should probably order the belt drive and pull the counter shaft gears while I'm in there.

Meanwhile I've got some HSS end mills and aluminum coming tomorrow.

[country gent]

Get some good tweezers too

[Mal Paso]

Get some good tweezers too

I've got the tweezers and the 5 inch Magnifier Light on the next bench too.

[Mal Paso]

I marked high and low spots on the spindle yesterday and started shimming with aluminum foil between the spindle and the collet taper. Got interrupted by work but I got what I wanted this morning. No deflection of the needle in a full rotation of the spindle. 2 small tapered pieces of foil, one smaller did the trick. On to adjusting the mast and torqueing it down.

When the storm lets up I'll go get the drill rod from the mail box. Gail warning right now, due to peak about noon. LOL

I squared the mast to the bed using a dial indicator chucked into the trued spindle and got it to .001" in a 6 inch swing. I installed and tweaked the 3/8 collet until the .375 pin ran true. Same shims as the 1/2 collet so the spindle will get replaced some time down the road likely with a belt drive if this mill proves itself. I chucked a 3/8 HSS end mill that will be my first cut and ordered a milling vise to raze the stock within reach of the mill. With what I hear about cutter chatter I have the cutter fully seated in the collet and will have the head as low on the mast as practical. The first project is a dovetail clamp in 6061 aluminum.

I find myself wanting a vertical bandsaw now and that was NEVER on the list.

[skeettx]

Watching !!

[country gent]

You might consider doing a couple little projects in hard wood just to get the "feel" for cutting with the machine. A [portable band saw might be as handy as the vertical saws and blades may be cheaper.

[Bloodman14]

Get the HF 4x6 bandsaw, good investment for the money. I hit my local recycling yard for scrap aluminum and brass/bronze stock to practice on. Wood dulls tool bits something fierce.

[Mal Paso]

Oh, for a good scrap yard. 40 years ago in Escondido, Ca. we had a scrap yard. Any interesting piece of metal that came in was stacked in rows and only the real junk got recycled. You could usually find the piece you needed with most of the machining already done. I didn't realize what a treasure I had. Today at the local yards if you start looking they quickly send someone to tell you that isn't permitted. They don't want anyone hurt and they don't want to slow the operation for a few retail sales.

I bought a lot of 5 1x2x4 aluminum blocks from Stoner Metals in Co. to get started. They did a nice job cutting them and they were $25 shipped.

[cold1]

I just discovered Protoboxes at online metals.com. They are available in stainless, aluminum, brass, copper and steel. 5, 10, 20 pound boxes. They are random drops. It's a great way to get lots of different metal pieces to learn wi machining with.

[sparky45]

Thanks for the heads up about onlinemetals.com. I live in the sticks and there aren't any metal fab shops to scrounge.

[pacomdiver]

hopefully they started making them better. i got one of those abt 5 years ago, it was a piece of junk, the cheezy plastic gears made noise the first time i fired it up and one broke the 3rd time i used it, took it back, they gave me another one, that lasted less than a month, took it back and got credit toward the bigger belt drive bench one . its lasted many milling projects since

[country gent]

When Dad and I were Planing the shop we wanted we decided the small hobby equipment wasnt for us for several reasons. 1) the basic sizes of the work we wanted to do. 2) both of s were are tool and die makers and we would be hard on it with the way we are used to running a machine. We both worked in industry for many years

The small light machines will do a lot of work but wont take the heavy passes. Im currently finishing up the shop in the new garage. I got lucky and the machines were "a one stop shopping for me. I made one offer on a friends shop that was being sold since he is in assisted living home now. Got 2 lathes 14 X 40 with read out and coolant, A 12 x 40 This is a much lighter machine. But still a good solid lathe. A 9 x 48 series 1 bridge port with readout an ice machine but belt drive head. It was a fresh refurbish when he bought it. And an old Delta rockwell surface grinder 6 x 12. Also got most of the tooling with them.

[oldred]

Those little machines are NOT junk! Certainly they must be used within their limitations and they do need a few mods to perform really well for useful machining on steel. As designed they are meant for hobby use machining soft materials and VERY light machining on mild steel and the harder alloys but this is before the common modifications that most people do to them, with the easy to do and inexpensive mods these little outfits will tackle jobs they were never designed for and will do so reliably. Out-of-the box trying to use something like a 1/2" end mill in a hard alloy at even a decent feed rate is surely going to end in frustration because this thing is not a BridgePort! This is not to say a person can't tackle bigger jobs with these outfits, they certainly can it just takes longer.


As I said earlier I now have a BP in my shop but that little mill, which has been subjected to all the common mods, still gets used a LOT because it's just a handy little outfit that works better for some things than the larger mill. When I got my BP the intention was to sell the little one but looking back at what I had been doing on it and realizing I was still going to it for some things I decided it wasn't going anywhere!

[country gent]

I agree that the little hobby machines will do a lot of work though much slower. When you are used to the big heavy solid cincinatti and miwallkee vetical
and horizontal mills ( the last shop I was in we roughed in parts on them then finished on the BPs) a small light mill just dosnt meet expectations. Even the beloved and very good BPs are that solid a machine they were a universal mill that could do anything. For roughing heavy cuts the above mentioned mills or a shaper is better suited

[pacomdiver]

oldred,
yes it was a piece of junk, it should've had a fisher price sticker on it. i got it to do 80 percent ar's and it broke with a 3/8 mill in it taking .010 passes, doing a trigger pocket in cast aluminum. like i said the 1st one made noise from the first time i turned it on. got the non fisher price version and it hasnt skipped a beat in the many projects ive done with it. neither of them ever had a piece of steel in them, just aluminum and never a bigger mill than 3/8 in them

[oldred]

oldred,
yes it was a piece of junk, it should've had a fisher price sticker on it. i got it to do 80 percent ar's and it broke with a 3/8 mill in it taking .010 passes, doing a trigger pocket in cast aluminum. like i said the 1st one made noise from the first time i turned it on. got the non fisher price version and it hasnt skipped a beat in the many projects ive done with it. neither of them ever had a piece of steel in them, just aluminum and never a bigger mill than 3/8 in them


You must be talking about a different and smaller/lighter machine than being discussed here, these little Seig mills are sold under a bunch of different brand names and are very popular and well known, the Harbor Freight mill is the same exact one from the same factory as the others it just has the HF name attached to it. The mill we are discussing here has a huge following with at least one web site devoted to it, mine came from HF and it's identical in every way to the older Grizzly machine my friend has (the one I mentioned earlier) except his is painted green and for whatever reason came with a Morse taper spindle. My little mill served me well before I got my BP and I did one heck of a lot more than try to finish a simple Aluminum 80% frame! For one thing I built from scratch a scaled down 1885 "baby" highwall style rifle that was totally machined from 4140 HT, Not aluminum, this was not any kind of "kit" of any percentage but 100% scratch built from raw bar stock including the internal parts. I have older posts here with pics of the rifle and mention of the mill I used,

255085

70% scale Highwall in 22 WMR, machined from solid 4140HT bar stock using my HF mill and I did a lot of other projects with that little mill, none as involved as that rifle project but I acquired my BP shortly after completion of that one. Don't know what you had but my little mill has been used for several years in my shop and is still in use for some smaller milling jobs, it certainly has it's limitations however a lot can be accomplished within those limitations but I can assure you this model mill is NOT junk!

[Mal Paso]

Chips flew today. I got sidetracked with a 4" vise that was too big. The 3" vise arrived so I mounted it and aligned it with the mill using a dial indicator in the chuck. The HappyBuy vise checked out level and seems decent for $73. LOL I also picked up that HF 20 piece set of M2 end mills when I was in Salinas last week for $60 with a coupon. I chucked the 7/16 2 flute end mill and started some light .03 passes at 1200 rpm. The motor seemed lightly loaded so I switched to high range about 2300, made .05" passes and it seemed to run better. That speed is closer to ideal surface speed from what I read. I had cut the aluminum block with a carbide toothed 14" metal chop saw so I left a little extra for safety margin and practice before I get to important cuts.

[Bloodman14]

The HF 4x6 metal bandsaw may be a bit slower, but a whole lot safer. i would be leery of cutting aluminum with a chop saw.

[Mal Paso]

The HF 4x6 metal bandsaw may be a bit slower, but a whole lot safer. i would be leery of cutting aluminum with a chop saw.

Hmm, I share your concern, reread the manufacturers instructions and although the carbide toothed blade is designed for steel there was nothing excluding other metals. The glazing and construction industry has been using carbide wood blades with wax applied to cut aluminum extrusions for years now. This metal blade is less aggressive and the cut was very smooth. I made sure the work was rigidly clamped, the saw is all cast iron and the blade has a thick web. It still made me a little nervous. I will probably get a vertical band saw so I can do complex cuts in plate as well as cutoffs. The horizontal saw is a good idea but takes twice the floor space, that I don't have.

I used to love woodworking but the fire kind of soured that and I seem to be shifting to metal. LOL

[country gent]

beeswax kerosene even paraffin will work keeping saw blades from loading up in aluminum. Always remember the 2 tooth rule. Our saws at work had coolant on them A water soluble coolant. Down infront of the back wheel behind the cut mount a round wire brush against the saw blade so it rolls with the blade with tension against it. This will help push chips out of the blade and relieve the loading issues.

The 3 tooth rule is Always have 3 teeth in contact with the piece being cut. A to fine blade dos not have chip clearance and packs loads requiring slower cutting feeds

[Bloodman14]

Mal, I understand now that you are NOT using an abrasive chopsaw wheel? If using a toothed/carbide blade, you will be fine, just go slowly. WD-40 or CRC 336 will be fine as a lube.

[Mal Paso]

Mal, I understand now that you are NOT using an abrasive chopsaw wheel? If using a toothed/carbide blade, you will be fine, just go slowly. WD-40 or CRC 336 will be fine as a lube.

Fire got my abrasive 14" cut off so I stretched the budget and replaced it with a toothed saw. They run much slower (1400 RPM) and cost more at first but the blades last much longer and cut better. I used to buy 5 packs of 14" abrasive disks, I haven't touched the spare toothed blade and I've been using the saw almost 3 years. Aluminum can be sticky so I used bees wax on the blade and went slow. The chips were small but clean and the blocks although too warm to hold after cutting, were not really hot. That I was cutting small blocks was my biggest concern so I had them clamped tight.

I finished shaping the project block yesterday a couple thousandths larger for finishing. I laid out the first cuts and hope to start today. The 3/8" dovetail bit was too small so I have a 1/2" coming Saturday. They are 6 flute or more so I was trying to keep the bit size down.

[oldred]

Fun ain't it! :mrgreen:

[Mal Paso]

Fun ain't it! :mrgreen:

Yep! LOL :happy dance:

[pacomdiver]

old red
its the same mill that mal paso has a pic of in post 54, all i know is both of the ones i had were obviously bad from the factory because they made noise as soon as i turned them on

[Mal Paso]

Yes it is noisy. There is a YouTube video comparing mine to the belt drive upgrade model. Fortunately I already had hearing protection. The last few passes I made in aluminum at 2400 RPM in high range. Seems to be working OK.

pacomdiver the mill you wound up with is far more capable than mine but is over 600 lbs heavier. An excellent choice but more than I could handle right now.

[oldred]

Yes those things are noisy as they come from the factory, it's just the nature of the beast as the old saying goes. However the milling head is just a box with a simple jack-shaft held in a couple of bearings driven by those plastic gears so there is very little that can go wrong with them, it's not at all like the head is some sort of gear box because there is nothing in there except that jack-shaft. Short of worn out bearings which is certainly not going to be the case with a new machine or broken drive gears which would be obvious there is nothing else much to go wrong in there that any noise would be indicative of.

[danomano]

Not sure if it helps but a book that I was shown is "Technology of Machine Tools" by Krar, Smid, and Gill. I think I found a used copy on evilbay for like 12 bucks shipped. Lots of good feeds and speeds info in there for lots of things. Its basically a school text book. Might be worth a peak.

[Bloodman14]

Did this thread die from apathy? I was hoping to learn something.:-?

[Jeff Michel]

Threads usually die out because the original question or topic has been beat to death. If you have a specific question or even a more general one, ask. There are plenty of people ready to weigh in on machines/machine work. Don't be bashful.

[country gent]

Blood man 14

PM me with your questions and or ideas, Im more than willing to help. Tool and die maker for 35 years and just now putting my own hobby shop in now hat Im medically retired

[Bloodman14]

No real need for a PM, just looking to learn what I can in general, because I am putting together my own machine shop hoping to put all of my tools to work. It's a skill set that I want to use to make a living on, hopefully.

[country gent]

One thing that most overlook when setting up a shop is to allow room to work around the machines. Sometimes a lathe is easier to load indicate in from the back side. ( gets the hand wheels tool post out of the way) same with a mill. Allow room to sweep up. Also a die cart can then be used to move heavy tooling around saving lifting and carrying. Storage should be as easy as possible. I bought 96" tall shelves and assembled in 1/2 units so only 42" tall saves lifting chucks, vises, and other heavy tooling as high or from between shelves. Keep tooling near the machines where its used at. Have plenty of outlets and air drops around the shop.

[Moleman-]

Bloodman14, machine tools can be very expensive to buy repair parts for. Learn to fix the broken ones you can or make new ones yourself. These were all repairs to used machines that were broken when I bought them. Bull and back gears simple braze and recut, been in use for 12 years or so now. 1301 shift lever was broken so the lathe would only run in one speed range. Cost me a bushing, the rest was out of the scrap bucket. 16T gears were damaged (as shown by the dirty gear with the oilite bearing in it) by some idiot changing gears without stoppling the lathe. Still worked, just noisy. Used 4140 barrel drops out of the scrap bucket to make the 16T gears and bought new oilite bearings to replace the old ones. Did have to buy a $15 cutter though to cut them.

[country gent]

The lathe mill and machines are the cheaper part. of the shop. All the tooling required, chucks, collets, vises, rotary tables, dividing head, Boring heads, cutters reamers taps and drills ect ect add up fast

[Jeff Michel]

Bloodman14,
I think increasing one's skill is just about a must when you are discussing the use of any machine tool. Without any knowledge of your background with metalworking, advise or guidance is very difficult. Are you interested in general machine work and if so what machines? There are so many facets to metalworking, you won't live long enough to learn it all so getting your sights closer to the horizon will help you on your quest. It's a process that requires incredible patience and attention to detail and living with your mistakes and you will have plenty starting out. Starting out as an auto-didactic myself, you will reach a plateau with your ability to understand certain aspects on your own. This is when a night class coming in to play you help you understand say, blueprints or G-codes. Equipment acquisition is easy part. Spending two days making a setup so you can make a 30 second cut is the trick classes can help teach you. It's one of the most fascinating vocation or in my case, avocation you can become involved in. I get just as much satisfaction out of making a spur gear for a donkey engine I'm currently building as I do putting a new barrel on my neighbor's Mauser. Nothing magical about it, jump in and make something, a bolt or a sub plate for you mill. Neither is difficult and both will teach you skills that can be applied on other projects. Keep asking and keep it challenging, that's the secret.