HP What is to Much ?

[Johnch]

I want to reduce the weight of the cast bullets for Dad's 45/60 rifle
As ( he will not admit it ) the steel butt plate on his rifle is't easy on his 79 year old shoulder [smilie=b:
Also cutting the stock is a NO NO as is about anything else in his mind

I tried sub 300 gr bullets , but the groups opened way up ... IMO maybe bearing length was the problem
So I tried putting HP's in a 300 gr GC bullet
I went and made 250 gr GC bullets
I had to seat them deep because of the bullet design , but the groups I shot were good

So I am planning on making him a HP GC mold .... I was thinking a GC to reinforce the base so I make the HP any depth I wanted
I was thinking of a 300 gr length to stick to what normally loaded
But making the HP stem so I can change the weight

My questions are
Also how close to the base of the bullet could I go and not be afraid of the base blowing through ?
How thin could I make the sides of the HP and expect the bullet to hold up ? .... last resort is to go real thin

Thanks
John

[nagantguy]

I don’t have an exact thickness measurement for you; all my hp molds are from Miha-MP and I can say in .357 loaded in mag and max and .452 loaded in ACP and .450 Bushmaster I was worried approaching jacketed velocities the large hp would be way to thin on the nose causing them to shear or break or crumple or even peel back/deform in flight- after shooting lots of paper; lots of water jugs- water jugs with deer hide in front and some large whitetail deer- the performance has been wonderful so if you get a hp mold or make one I’m sure you’d be fine. I went hp I most hunting molds to help with what I saw as the lack of blood trail with even the widest flat nose.

[Wayne Smith]

Will this be used for hunting at all? i.e. is terminal ballistics an issue? That will have more limitations than internal or external ballistics.

[longbow]

You might want to look at the old Ideal express bullet designs like:

- 22638
- 25727
- 40090
- 42499
- 45115
- 512139

all of which have very large HP cavities. The Ness Safety Bullet H&G #38 has about the biggest HP cavity I've seen:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?368429-ACTIVE-Mihec-H-amp-G-38

Also to consider is the boolit design/length and any jump to rifling with lighter weight boolits not HP'd. Filling the throat and touching or near rifling is a good thing.

Maybe a Lyman Gould 457122 330 gr. would be good in that gun. It was designed for .45 cal. rifle and is popular in the .45-70. Lyman 457122 moulds are currently available.

Also, what Wayne said... what is the goal? If hunting then you want to consider boolit performance on game. If just for target shooting then all you need is an accurate low recoiling design.

I'm with your dad on changing the gun. Rightly or wrongly I like lever guns and Sharps with crescent butt plate and straight grip stock. Same with muzzleloaders, I like the stupid traditional crescent brass butt plates. What can I say!

Longbow

[Johnch]

Will this be used for hunting at all? i.e. is terminal ballistics an issue? That will have more limitations than internal or external ballistics.

Hunting ... Well 90 - 95% will be paper targets or apples in the fall
Yea a ground hog or 2 a year when Dad walks along the creek with me or my brother

Big issue is recoil , so to help I am reducing bullet weight
But want to keep a decent group size

John

[Bent Ramrod]

I’ve found several Lyman/Ideal HP moulds missing the hollow-point pin. I generally make replacement pins that are almost the full diameter of the hole in the mould, highly polished, with just enough draft to pull out of the casting and the depth going to the first driving band past the nose.

Probably reduces the weight ~30 gr or so in the .44-40 boolit. Never tried them on anything practical, just exploding water-filled cans and PET bottles. No problems with them coming apart in the barrel or in flight.

If your dad is really sensitive to recoil, the best solution is one of those Buffalo Arms recoil pads that you strap on and wear. Once the shooter is “of a certain age,” they seem to be de rigeur for BPCR Silhouette shooting. No problem shooting 50-60 shots in a match, with heavy boolits and full-house loads.

[DocSavage]

Have you looked at the NOE website they have a decent selection of hp molds. The one suggestion I didn't see was for loads using Trail Boss.
HOE makes a mold for a collar button style bullet that's under 200 gr IIRC.

[mdi]

Load/bullet changes are a good way to decrease recoil, but have you thought of a slip on recoil pad? I have a 44 Mag. levergun that while the amount of recoil can be easily handled, the combination of stock and butt shape, steel but plate, and my shoulder made it unpleasant to shoot. I found a leather slip on butt pad that sorta kept within the "old west levergun" style. I added about 1/2" of foam in the pad and now it looks good and is pleasant to shoot even with my T-Rex killer loads...

[longbow]

Yup! NOE makes a collar button, Mihec had one but not sure of stock and Lyman is again offering the collar button. It is same weight as round ball but better bearing length... at least for the original design. The NOE collar button is heavier (but not a bunch) and not sure about the Mihec version.

Another option is to look at Accurate Molds and pick a light mould. I got Tom to scale down a .45 cal. TC boolit design for .44 mag. for my Marlin 1894 rifle. It weighs 165 grs. and shoots quite well. Shorter bearing length than a collar button but it works. Recoil is like a .22 but it punches big holes and so far seems fairly accurate though I haven't shot it past 50 yards yet.

But again I digress... if you want to keep 300 gr. length but add large HP, based on the boolit designs I listed above I'd say you can extend HP down to the top of your last driving band. For light boolits and moderate loads I'd go with PB boolits to avoid the GC cost and installation. If your dad isn't shooting a lot then maybe GC's aren't that much trouble but I like to avoid them when I can. I'm cheap and lazy.

Longbow

[45-70 Chevroner]

You might want to look at the old Ideal express bullet designs like:

- 22638
- 25727
- 40090
- 42499
- 45115
- 512139

all of which have very large HP cavities. The Ness Safety Bullet H&G #38 has about the biggest HP cavity I've seen:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?368429-ACTIVE-Mihec-H-amp-G-38

Also to consider is the boolit design/length and any jump to rifling with lighter weight boolits not HP'd. Filling the throat and touching or near rifling is a good thing.

Maybe a Lyman Gould 457122 330 gr. would be good in that gun. It was designed for .45 cal. rifle and is popular in the .45-70. Lyman 457122 moulds are currently available.

Also, what Wayne said... what is the goal? If hunting then you want to consider boolit performance on game. If just for target shooting then all you need is an accurate low recoiling design.

I'm with your dad on changing the gun. Rightly or wrongly I like lever guns and Sharps with crescent butt plate and straight grip stock. Same with muzzleloaders, I like the stupid traditional crescent brass butt plates. What can I say!

Longbow

I'm with Longbow on the 457122 330gr HP. I load 11gr. of Unique it has lite recoil and 3" to 4" groups at a hundred yards. No filler. This is in a Sharps 45-70. This load should be doable in 45-60.

[fredj338]

I use the Lyman too, had another pin made to make it a bit heavier but you could go the other way too.
https://media.mwstatic.com/product-images/src/Primary/370/370703.jpg?imwidth=2200
IMO, a gas check isn't needed for the 45-70 or 45-60. Running 1500fps, you can use 20-1 alloy & they shoot fine & no leading with proper fit & lube.