Rebore or Line My '73?

[Speedo66]

I have a Winchester '73, manufactured in 1889, in .38-40. It's certainly not pristine, the bore was never very good, but now it's starting to keyhole somewhat. I shoot very light loads of Trailboss in it, don't know if that has anything to do with it.

So it crossed my mind to either rebore it to .44-40, or have the barrel relined in the original caliber. I know either will lower the value, wondering which would affect it less? I'll also have to factor in cost, don't know which would be less expensive.

In addition, have to figure out if anything internal would have to be changed to work with the .44-40.

Any thoughts on this?

[missionary5155]

Greetings
If you reline you still have the original barrel markings correct. Some view that as a real plus.
Do you already shoot 44 WCF ? If so then you have no additional needs to shoot a rebore. But as you already shoot and reload caliber 38 you are still owner of the gear.
44 and 38 use the same bolt, cartridge lifter, cartridge tube..... all the same.
Mike in LLama Land

[Speedo66]

Mike, thanks for the info re: internals. I don't load for .44-40, no dies, bullets, or cases so that's something to think about.

Anybody know prices on lining a barrel?

[1Hawkeye]

A rebore is going to be about 200.00 cheaper than a reline. If the rifle is already in rough shape then a rebore is not going to hurt the valve by much. JES reboring did a .44-40 rebore for me early last year and the work was fantastic he charged 250.00 and that included return shipping. The barreled action was only gone 4 weeks and I'm on the opposite coast.

[Rick B]

Speaking from experience, I had Redmond’s reline a 1873 in 32WCF. Was gone about 9 months, well worth it. Shoots like a dream now! A reline is 425.00. Rifle came back with a very professionally installed liner. Evidence of the liner is really faint at the muzzle. I really like old gray/brown guns with mint bores.

Something to be said for retaining the original caliber! The only time I have had a larger caliber rebore done is on a round barreled rifle. Octagon barreled Winchesters can be relined.
Rick

[bosterr]

Even though a re-line costs more than a rebore, I'd go with the re-line. I had a Marlin 94 relined by Redmond's to the original 32-20 and other than a little shinyness of the extractor cut on the breach end that since has dulled, I can't tell it's been re-lined. The muzzle is impossible to see the line around the liner. This rifle is an absolute tack driver.

[Shawlerbrook]

If you go reline, check with John Taylor here. He does a lot of that work. I would also highly recommend JES for reboring.

[Speedo66]

Thanks to all for the info!

[skeettx]

Start here,
use softer bullets, a quick burning powder, which will bump up the base of the bullet
No need to do any work on the gun
Let us know how this worked out for you
Mike

[dverna]

Another vote to reline. After buying dies, molds and brass for a new caliber the savings are not a lot you do not need to bugger up the barrel stamp. Something about keeping it in the original caliber appeals to me...make little sense.

[edp2k]

Before you rebore or reline, try some hotter loads with your existing bullets or some larger bullets, like .402 or .403.
I'll bet that fixes you problem.
Also, a good, deep clean, using some pieces of copper chore boy wrapped around your bore brush, will probably help.

[GhostHawk]

To keep its value, hang it on the wall.

To keep it as a shooter and or change caliber, rebore. Lining I do not know enough about.

[Thumbcocker]

Load development is a cheap first step.

[glaciers]

From what I understand reboring the early Winchesters barrels could have hard spots which can give you a less than satisfactory job.
Relining gives you a good bore and you can stay with the original caliber.
But first I would increase the velocity first and check your bore diameter compared to the bullets you are using. Also scrub the barrel to make sure of it's condition.

[Speedo66]

Thanks again to all for the great suggestions!

I'm going to try slightly hotter loads and see if that helps.

[MI2600]

I recently bought a '92 SRC in 38-40 that had been relined and the only indication, beside a perfect bore, is a very slight silver ring at the mouth of the chamber.

As mentioned above, you already have the wherewithal for reloading 38-40 and the barrel marking would not have to be over-stamped. Another reline vote.

[John Taylor]

I have run into a few barrels that don't do well with a rebore, usually caused by rust pits that can run deep. If a rebore does not work out it can always be relined. I have a 73 that has a good coat of rust on the outside but still functions. I installed a liner in 32-20 so it can be shot. I picked it up after a contractor found it under a house that he was tearing down. I get asked often why someone would leave a rifle in the crawl space under a house. Many years back when old guns didn't have any value they were given to kids to play with, some kid probably drug it under the house and forgot about it.

[DonMountain]

Relining the barrel will maintain the original caliber and markings, and give you a modern, high strength steel barrel that will last for a much longer time and work better with smokeless powder and jacketed bullet loads. Reboring will give you an old, soft steel barrel meant for black powder and lead bullet only loads. Again.

[sharps4590]

If changing your load doesn't work for you, and I hope it does, I would opt for the re-line....for all the reasons mentioned. I've nothing against re-boring but, it is an antique and on an original I believe there should be at least some consideration given to the barrel markings But, that's my opinion. It is your rifle.

[bob208]

I have been into Winchesters for over 40 years. the .44-40 is the most common in a 73. .32-20 is next. 38-40 is the hardest to find so I would go with the reline. honest wear goes not hurt a Winchester's value as much as as being rebulbed or the stocks sanded .

[Eddie Southgate]

Reline if it does not respond positively to a better load . A good 38-40 is not something I would give up .

[35 Whelen]

I have a '73 Winchester in 38 WCF made in 1886. This thing has some unbelievable wear and tear on it from over a century of hard use. The bore was so bad that I couldn't hit a paper target past 25 yds. and the bullets keyholed. I tried different loads with no luck. So I removed the barrel and sent it to John Taylor, who is a man of the highest integrity and does great work!

The first target I fired at 25 yds after he returned it-

https://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/1873%20Winchester/1873%20Winchester-%201886%20Production/25%20Yds._zpsjdmy9wwp.jpg (https://s60.photobucket.com/user/308Scout/media/1873%20Winchester/1873%20Winchester-%201886%20Production/25%20Yds._zpsjdmy9wwp.jpg.html)

Then on the bigger and further things-

https://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/1873%20Winchester/1873%20Winchester-%201886%20Production/200%20yds.%20Herco_zpsg5fcpll0.jpg (https://s60.photobucket.com/user/308Scout/media/1873%20Winchester/1873%20Winchester-%201886%20Production/200%20yds.%20Herco_zpsg5fcpll0.jpg.html)

https://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/1873%20Winchester/1873%20Winchester-%201886%20Production/200%20yds.%20Unique_zpsfcl2t8ml.jpg (https://s60.photobucket.com/user/308Scout/media/1873%20Winchester/1873%20Winchester-%201886%20Production/200%20yds.%20Unique_zpsfcl2t8ml.jpg.html)

https://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/Hunting/3%20point_zpswtji6qwy.jpg (https://s60.photobucket.com/user/308Scout/media/Hunting/3%20point_zpswtji6qwy.jpg.html)

So I'm for having Mr. Taylor line it.

35W

[Outpost75]

Another recommendation for John Taylor. He has done numerous projects for me, both rifles and revolvers. I have always been well satisfied. Relining while keeping the rifle in its original caliber, with original markings and patina intact would be my vote.

[John Taylor]

Relining the barrel will maintain the original caliber and markings, and give you a modern, high strength steel barrel that will last for a much longer time and work better with smokeless powder and jacketed bullet loads. Reboring will give you an old, soft steel barrel meant for black powder and lead bullet only loads. Again.

While new barrels are made from 4140 steel the liners are made from 4130. This is harder than the original black powder barrel but not as hard as modern barrels. Smokeless powder loads need to stay within the same pressure levels as the black powder loads and while jacketed bullets will work the liner will not hold up like a 4140 steel barrel. I have not seen any liners wore out yet that I have installed.

[Speedo66]

Thanks once again to all for their recommendations. I'm researching what a good smokeless load will be to expand the base of a lead bullet but keep pressures within the old gun's limit.

I have Bullseye, Trailboss, and Universal powders on hand, if anybody has a .38-40 load they'd suggest that might bump the base, I'd appreciate it. I know black powder would probably be the best, but I don't have any and would prefer not to try it.

[Outpost75]

Thanks once again to all for their recommendations. I'm researching what a good smokeless load will be to expand the base of a lead bullet but keep pressures within the old gun's limit.

I have Bullseye, Trailboss, and Universal powders on hand, if anybody has a .38-40 load they'd suggest that might bump the base, I'd appreciate it. I know black powder would probably be the best, but I don't have any and would prefer not to try it.

According to Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook 4th Edition (2010) on pg. 261 with RCBS #40-180CM

5 grains of Bullseye or 6 grains of Trail Boss with 180-grain lead bullet.

They also show 7 grains of Unique, which should be OK also with Universal, none of these loads over 12,000 psi.

[scb]

Mr. Taylor re-lined a Low Wall for me in 38/40. I am completely satisfied. Great work.
254604

[enfield]

I use BP in my 73 38-40 also made in 1889 ( also with a not so good bore ). my other 38-40's and 44-40's have been getting 6.5 - 7.0 Gr Herco lately for plinking loads and they work awesome. make sure you are using as fat a bullit as will chamber I use a Lee 40 cal bullit and a NOE that's casts .404 maybe the bullit your using is toooo small ??

[Ajohns]

A good 73 in 38wcf is hard to beat. Mine is lined, though I bought it that way. When you find the right load it all pays off because they're a joy to shoot. And if you do decide to do a liner, chances are it will shoot real good.

[2152hq]

Back in '90 or '91 I bought a '73 that was loose and the bore was shot out. It was in 38-40.

I rebuilt the action. The normal oversized pins for the toggle. But I also made a new bolt face by turning down the front 1/2 of the bolt, sleeving on a new piece and then milling & shaping that to respectable dimensions from the sad condition of the original. The two pieces are hard soldered together but the joint line is nearly invisible.
I cut the 'window' inside the frame that the bolt slides back and forth through oversize with a shop made cutter & then silver soldered a new plate in there. Then another cutter to re-bore the hole to fit the new bolt.
That window was so worn in the orig condition that the bolt would close and then drop down visibly. The firing pin barely striking the primer.

The bore was a toss up betw reline to 38 or rebore to 44.
At the time I was doing some engraving/recutting work for Ken Bresien. We traded work. He rebored the 73 bbl to 44 (.427) for my lettering recut on a heavy Sharps bbl he was working on at the time.
I rented a reamer and recut the chamber to 44-40.
I changed the caliber marking to 44WCF on the top flat. Peened the old mark over, polished it out and cut the new caliber marking. Then touched up the old brown finish to match.
..and I left the entire rifle in it's brown, worn metal and worn and dented wood condition.
I put the old finish back in place where the soldering and other work had displaced it.


I've been tempted more than a few times to 'fix 'er up' but I just left it as -is.
There's an old owners initial of 'B' stamped in a few places on the gun, but very small. Plus someones scratched date of Jan,1,1897 on the stock.
Sometimes it all bothers me, sometimes not.
I put a nice orig tang sight on it and shoot it with light loads of RedDot and 205gr LFN bullets.
Very accurate and fun to shoot.
It's seen a lot of rounds since the rebuild and is still as tight as the day I completed the rebuild.
I used to shoot it with BP-Sub loads too. But the RedDot loads are more accurate and the rifle has held up just fine.


**** One thing to mention IF you rebore a 38WCF to 44....

On the Win 73 Rifles,, the 32 and 38 caliber frames had the small step down radius at the front of the frame.
The 44WCF Rifle did not have that radius on the frame. They were made straight.
So , as with my conversion from a 38wcf, the frame has that radius on the top of the frame.
This will tell any collector that the rifle was likely* originally a 38WCF rather than the 44WCF it is now.
Small point, but some people wring their hands over such stuff.

* I say 'likely' as I believe the Carbine version of the 73 in 44WCF had that slight radius to the frame.

Personally it doesn't bother me one bit. I just like working on the things and shooting them. After I'm gone, others can argue about such stuff and sell it for pizza money.