Just when was the Christ born?

[Thundarstick]

I'm pretty sure it wasn't Dec 25th! So when? What do you say, and why? Does it matter?

[Sagebrush7]

When Was Jesus Born?
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The Bible’s answer

The Bible does not give a specific date for the birth of Jesus Christ, as these reference works show:

“The true birth date of Christ is unknown.”—New Catholic Encyclopedia.

“The exact date of Christ’s birth is not known.”—Encyclopedia of Early Christianity.

While the Bible does not directly answer the question, ‘When was Jesus born?’ it does describe two events surrounding his birth that lead many to conclude that he was not born on December 25.
Not in winter

The registration. Shortly before Jesus was born, Caesar Augustus issued a decree ordering “all the inhabited earth to be registered.” Everyone had to register in “his own city,” which might have required a journey of a week or more. (Luke 2:1-3) That order—probably made to support taxation and military conscription—would have been unpopular at any time of year, but it is unlikely that Augustus would have provoked his subjects further by forcing many of them to make long trips during the cold winter.

The sheep. Shepherds were “living out of doors and keeping watches in the night over their flocks.” (Luke 2:8) The book Daily Life in the Time of Jesus notes that flocks lived in the open air from “the week before the Passover [late March]” through mid-November. It then adds: “They passed the winter under cover; and from this alone it may be seen that the traditional date for Christmas, in the winter, is unlikely to be right, since the Gospel says that the shepherds were in the fields.”

In early fall

We can estimate when Jesus was born by counting backward from his death on Passover, Nisan 14 in the spring of the year 33 C.E. (John 19:14-16) Jesus was about 30 years old when he began his three-and-a-half-year ministry, so he was born in the early fall of 2 B.C.E.—Luke 3:23.

[dangitgriff]

0 BC/AD [emoji851]
(don’t forget the Romans re-organized their calendar by adding two months to it)

[wv109323]

The calendar we use today was developed under Pope Gregory much ,much later than Christ. Pope Gregory tried to establish the year Christ was born by historical events and counting backwards. It is now believed that he missed the year by either 4 or 6 years depending on how some documents are dated. So probably Christ was born in either 4 or 6 BC. As to the day and month we have no idea. I do like some of the reasoning as to the time of year presented by others.

[1hole]

"When" He was born makes an interesting coffee shop discussion but it makes no difference at all to any Christian doctrine.

[DeputyDog25]

I’m not sure when He was born, but praise God He was! I know my Redeemer lives, hallelujah.

[1hole]

And amen.

[Bigslug]

It's an interesting bit of archaeology - pegging down the particulars of a low-born guy from 2,000 years ago who was only really on the public stage for a handful of years. I've tried to sort out details of both my grandfather's WWII histories from the snippets I have - - - even when you have breadcrumbs, a separation of only 70-odd years, AND the country they were born in still exists, it can be a real bear.

I've often wondered about the validity of attempting to peg a date, or at least a season, for Jesus' birth based on weather conditions. . . I'm no expert on Israel, proper, but we ARE talking about a (actually THE) mild Mediterranean climate here - bordered closely by a couple of scorched deserts. Winter in Palestine isn't remotely what people in the northern reaches of the Roman Empire would call "brutal" - - indeed, it may actually be a better time to do your moving around than in summer. At any rate, it's not operating on the European model where you can't actually DO anything for 3-4 months out of the year. The Romans wouldn't want to compromise THEIR economy by disturbing anything vital to their interests that was seasonal. How much in that climate actually IS seasonal.

December 25 therefore could be the date for all we know, but on the other hand, it seems like it could easily be a contrived church strategy based on the winter solstice that all the pagans would have been celebrating. If your goal is to go out and preach conversion, and you don't know the actual date anyway, when better to catch the locals than when they have scheduled down time, and how better to get repeat "air time" by separating the birth date of the religious figure by roughly half a year from the celebrations of resurrection and ascension? If the birth, death, resurrection, and ascension actually all really did occur within the same couple months of the calendar, that might be factually accurate, but would make it harder to make your pitch year-round.

But no, it doesn't matter at all from a religious/believer's perspective. Sure, we actually know when George Washington was born, but is that date as relevant as the day Cornwallis surrendered at Yorktown? It's what you did, not when you got here.

The proper thing to look for would be Roman or local government records - doubtful though it is that they still exist anywhere in any form: then, as now, bureaucrats who can tax and draft you will be the ones who "love" you the most, will want documentation of the means to tax or draft you not caring one iota what your divine qualifications are, and are far more likely to remember your birthday than your spouse is. Funny, given recent political shenanigans, that we should hope to find the Messiah's birth certificate AND tax returns recorded in some lost "Gospel of Accounting".;)

[1hole]

In the early church, such things as the dates of Jesus' birthday, day of death and day of resurrection and venerated bones of designated "saints" had no application and no great meaning.

Only after a few hundred years what was finally becoming the Roman church began to co-opt the trappings and traditions of the pagans around them. The pagans already observed somewhat equivalent days so the church determined to observe the advent and sacrifice of Jesus on special days the pagans already accepted so that seemed right to them.

Some people are still appalled by Christians celebrating those pagan days but I say Christians have happily snatched those days from the hands of Satan and dedicated them to the worship of Lord Jesus; there can be no delight to Satan over what the church has done to his evil plans.

I find it interesting to see Indiana Jones, et al, movies include the worship of demons in lofty and ornate temples, led by ornately robed and gold ladened teams of "priests" giving repetitious chants in candle smoke, all within a tightly controlled religious organization. It took several hundred years for all that to become "sanctified" by mandated Roman church "tradition" - NOT Bible, but "new" traditions. Scripture (Paul) gives religious traditions no good mention.

Such pomp, visually splendid and ornate pagan practices, remind me of a supposed salvation by works driven religious organization we still have today.

[Preacher Jim]

By history we know herod died in 4bc, he ordered the murder of every boy in Bethlehem 2 and under. So that would put the date of his birth before 4bc and after 6bc. The day is not as easy to gather information. Your speculations are based on shepherd's being in the fields with sheep so weather was warm enough for them not to go in at night. Close as I can come to it.
The actual day is not important the fact that is important is he was borned, lived a sinless life and died on that cross of Calvary for our sins. Amen

[dtknowles]

..................Only after a few hundred years what was finally becoming the Roman church began to co-opt the trappings and traditions of the pagans around them. The pagans already observed somewhat equivalent days so the church determined to observe the advent and sacrifice of Jesus on special days the pagans already accepted so that seemed right to them.

Some people are still appalled by Christians celebrating those pagan days but I say Christians have happily snatched those days from the hands of Satan and dedicated them to the worship of Lord Jesus; there can be no delight to Satan over what the church has done to his evil plans.

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Such pomp, visually splendid and ornate pagan practices, remind me of a supposed salvation by works driven religious organization we still have today.

You seem to be linking Pagans and Catholics.

You are also kind of hard on Pagans claiming them as Satanic. Celebrating the passing of the seasons as marked by the travel of the Sun, Moon, Planets and Stars across the sky and worshiping the water, earth and sky does not seem like the work of the devil.

It is sort of narrow minded to just dump all pagans into one bucket. There are more different kinds of pagans than there are different kinds of Christians. The Mayans were more different from the Druids than Christians are different from Islamists. Do you consider Hindus, Buddhists, Confucians, Shinto, Sikhs and Zoroastrians pagans? Are those religions the work of the devil.

Tim

[Ickisrulz]

As biographers, the four men who wrote the Gospels woefully failed today's modern audience.

We don't know when Jesus was born, we don't know what happened to his father, we don't know how many siblings he had, we don't know what he looked like and we are missing large periods of his life history.

[trapper9260]

For the time they said for how the shepherds was looking over there flock because of the time of year for that is lamb season , For lamb season is spring. I had seen a video on this subject ,can not find it now .

[trapper9260]

Here is the video that I was talk about https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptlsXtTf6n0

[Blackwater]

You know, this is a very interesting question, but ultimately, not a very relevant one when it comes to what He said to us. I always regard these type questions pretty lightly, but FWIW, if anything, I suspect he may most likely have been born in the mid to late spring. That's my best guess because as has been said already above, Caesar wouldn't likely have issued the decree in the coldest weather, and therefor make travel much harder. And it would likely have taken a while for the edict to be spread widely enough to have effect. So mid to late spring would be my best guess, but that's all it is - just a simple guess, and I'm not wedded to it in any way.

[Good Cheer]

Perhaps of interest to some, from many years ago a study on the subject of when conception happened.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DqDiVkS9EgQ

[ioon44]

ARNOLD MURRAY AND THE SHEPHERD'S CHAPEL


http://deceptioninthechurch.com/arnoldmurray.html

[Good Cheer]

ARNOLD MURRAY AND THE SHEPHERD'S CHAPEL


http://deceptioninthechurch.com/arnoldmurray.html

I'm aware of the various rocks that have been thrown at his teaching of the word.
Are you aware of which aspects you agree with and which you disagree with?
What do you think of the presented teaching on the conception of when Christ entered the world?
Do you know that it isn't new information and Murray didn't think it up?
Have you examined the critiques and condemnations of whatever your favorite theories, beliefs, cult or teachers may be?
Or are you just throwing rocks?

Over the decades I've found much I disagree with from the teachings of many ministers. As a matter of fact I don't know of one single teacher / preacher in my life time that I don't have a bone to pick with. They're all people with strengths and weaknesses as are we all. Some have non-biblical agendas. Some have sources of funding that determine what can be said.
I'd encourage anyone to examine the teachings of each and to carefully examine the motivations behind those who want you not to.
After all:
1) Flack really is thickest over the target.
2) On judgement day you don't get to claim an excuse that someone mislead you.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

ARNOLD MURRAY AND THE SHEPHERD'S CHAPEL
http://deceptioninthechurch.com/arnoldmurray.html
I got as far as Sandy's Trinity claim. Sandy's evidence is a couple quotes when Murray was answering someone's questions in 1991, but Sandy fails to include the Questions for context. That section ends with a unfounded assumption.


Pastor Arnold Murray, may he rest in piece, addresses this entire 1991 attack.
http://deceptioninthechurch.com/arnoldmurray.html

[Good Cheer]

I've yet to find a better breakdown of the subject (of when Jesus was born) than the one offered above.
And it is of interest to this Christian in understanding how He came here, His sacrifice and His return.

[Johnny Diamond]

"When" He was born makes an interesting coffee shop discussion but it makes no difference at all to any Christian doctrine.Absolutely correct, affects no one's salvation.

FINEM RESPICE ~ MEMENTO MORI

[Good Cheer]

Genesis 7 and 8
Luke 1
Revelation 9
His physical entry into this world was timed to be as it will be again after the five months.
If someone didn't understand the five months I could see where that could skew their doctrine.

[Char-Gar]

Jesus was born in early spring 4 BCE. On what is that based?

Shepheard's were out watching their flock by night. They didn't do that until Spring.
The Holy Family fled to Egypt and did not return until Herod dies. Herod dies in 3 BCE

[bangerjim]

Who cares WHEN. Just thank God HE was! And still is in the hearts of mankind.

banger

[Gobeyond]

Read Daniel 9:20-26. The decree to build Jerusalem came from Babylon in the month of Nisan and 483 years later Jesus rode on a donkeys colt as their king. If he was 33 at the time you can get close. The command to build was given in 444 bc.
483 years later , years of 360 days. From the one year book of Christian history. Pg 181.

[Char-Gar]

Who cares WHEN. Just thank God HE was! And still is in the hearts of mankind.

banger

Well, I care. I should think that all Christians would care about every detail of his life on earth. There is nothing to small or trivial about him that is not worth knowing. I have been to Jerusalem and The Galilee many times and each time fills me with wonder. There is in Jerusalem about twenty stone stairs that once lead to the entrance to the Herod's Temple. It is the only place where we can say with 100% certainty that Jesus walked there. I like to sit on one of those wide stone steps and soak up his presents with my mind. Being where he was, enables the New Testament to come alive for me, the way it could not without having been there.

[farmbif]

many years ago I got to go to the church of nativity in Bethlehem but very shortly after the tour arrived soldiers made us leave because the area was being targeted by hostile Arabs that had no respect for christ. I think we ended up that evening eating at gyro stands at sea of Galilee . was a trip worth taking at least once in life
but sure do remember kissing the ground when returning to good ole USA

[Good Cheer]

I've come to think that what will happen on the third day makes when He was born and therefore when He left the planet the milestone event for the schedule of remaining history.

[derek45]

Long before Jesus, in northern Europe, was Yule

Winter solstice celebration.

I imagine when Christianity came to N. Europe, they combined the two, as Germans are notoriously hard headed.

[Good Cheer]

By the way, there's a movie made available today for viewing for free documenting the devil worshiping freaks putting together their boss' global control systems and government. Which does naturally (or rather, supernaturally) happen to be just in time for the third day.
https://greatestreset.movie/watch

[1hole]

All that we need to know or should know about Jesus is in the Book. The time of his human birth isn't in there.

[Good Cheer]

The four pages of Appendix 179 in the 1922 Edition of Bullinger's Companion Bible publishing of the 1611 King James goes step by step through scripture to answer the question of when Jesus was conceived.

[dverna]

Nothing changes if the year and date we have accepted are different than reality.

More important things to think about IMO.

[popper]

Uh,
hard on Pagans claiming them as Satanic
Yes I would claim anyone who does not Believe and Trust the Creator to be a Satanist (opposing God). Even Atheists worship a god - themselves! As in, 'they' make their own 'rules'.

[armoredman]

For what little it's worth, I was told He was born in the springtime, as the reasons above. The celebration of Christ's Mass was moved to December 25th as there was a new upstart religion of Mithras, and Mithras feast day was December 25th...so Christ's Mass was moved there to help squash this upstart religion. However, that is only what I was told verbally many many years ago.

[ioon44]

This, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptlsXtTf6n0

[scattershot]

I don’t know, and apparently no,one else does, either , for certain. I do know that December 25th coincides with a pagan festival celebrating the winter solstice, and early Christians adopted it.

[Good Cheer]

Cahn made lots of sense in his pro-spring position but he was also making some unfounded assumptions to support his argument, such as the feast of tabernacles precluding the shepherds being in the fields if the birth would have happened in the fall nine months after winter solstice. There's some variability in scheduling so the feast of tabernacles doesn't happen on a set date each year, bouncing around some in September and October. So far it looks as though the scriptural evidence for a date of impregnation documented by Bullinger in 1922 carries more weight. That said though, if you try to pin down a date for the birth you're stuck with making an assumption on the specific number of days Jesus was carried in the womb. As if to say a perfect gestation as we could define one would yield a specific date.

[old sparky]

I wonder if the reason we do not know the exact day is because if we did know the exact day we would worship the Day instead of Jesus.

[scattershot]

I have read that scholars have concluded he must have been born in June or early,July. The 25th of December was chosen to coincide with a pagan celebration of winter solstice.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Far less important than the fact that he was born. The Bible does not command a celebration of his birthday.

DG

[RSAPD]

Just a day the church chose to thank God for coming in the flesh to earth. The day was mostly chosen to Christianize the Roman pagan winter festivals. Church has a super long history of taking pagan traditions and dates and then giving them a Christian feast date. I don't consider it deceptive but it is a smart and manipulative tactic. Easier to make converts by showing them they can celebrate almost the same but honoring the Trinity and saints of the church. The key was to incorporate local customs and traditions that didn't require people to abandon their culture but just focus it towards God.

[Harter66]

The Romans may have rearranged the calendar but the Hebrews had a moon calendar which is why Easter is all over the calendar . It was 13 months to coincide with the 13 moon cycles per year .

We have science to support continental drift , Axis shift , environmental change and the potential of any calendar of the last 5,000 yr or so to be off by a decade . Given that a poster suggested that he was born in the fall of 3 that would be correct at zero by 1065 when the calender would have , without leap days , been 3 yrs fast . Every 90 years the calendar would have shifted a whole 1/4 so it's actually very possible that the flocks were in the field "in the dead of winter" using a fixed calendar vs an astrological calendar .

Before Egypt for the average person the concept of 1000 of anything was unimaginably huge and time past a few seasons was let alone years was forever . Today we accept 5 as day to day business 6 places as a decent income and talk about 9,10, 14 places over beer .
Placed in context science proves out the Bible and all of studies .

[Good Cheer]

Dr. Michael Heiser went seriously in depth into when Jesus was born and why it matters.
He settled on September 11, 3BC rather than the time identified by E. W. Bullinger.
Listening to what Heiser said was not wasted time.

[groundpounder]

Dr. Michael Heiser went home on Feb 20, 2023 and he can now ask Jesus but I don’t believe that matters to him now. Jesus death and sacrifice mattered very much to the Dr at this time though.

[pworley1]

I’m not sure when He was born, but praise God He was! I know my Redeemer lives, hallelujah.

This is the important part. Not only was HE born, but HE rose from the grave and lives today.

[ioon44]

https://www.logos.com/grow/michael-heiser-passing/

A really great teacher and follower of Jesus Christ, he will be missed.

[Good Cheer]

I'm pretty sure it wasn't Dec 25th! So when? What do you say, and why? Does it matter?

A presentation by Dr. Heiser on some results of his studies.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTEhGM5jaak

[groundpounder]

Good Cheer thank you for the link. Never had the opportunity to read or hear him before. We grow line upon line, here a little there a little, faith to faith and glory to glory. Jesus Christ born of a virgin, died on a cross for the sin of man, raised from the dead, seated at the right hand of the Father and soon coming King.

[Good Cheer]

You're welcome sir.

Heiser is missed already, somebody that we could have learned oh so much more from as he continued to learn.

[RSAPD]

Very logical how he came up with the date and seems to make a lot of sense. I like to learn about the physical aspects of the faith and contemplate all the theological aspects as well. However, it is important to remember the most critical thing about the faith is God's love for us and the salvation plan. Again, it is important and good to think about details and contemplate. I think God wants us to do this but he also wants us to come as children just knowing and accepting His love. I think Jesus was an example of this - his teaching is pretty simplistic and does not get into a lot extraneous detail. Love everyone, forgiveness and following the commandments and laws. I think that is what can be interesting abut Christianity. Jesus explains what people should do and how they should live in fairly simple terms and we find all kinds of ways to make it super complicated and debate every tiny aspect. Again, it has its place to ponder all things but we should not forget the big picture.

[Good Cheer]

People being people, now that Dr. Heiser has passed away his detractors will probably be emboldened and begin ripping at his work.

[RSAPD]

At least in terms of Jesus' birth, Dr Heiser uses astronomy and history (facts). So the only true detractors could be people that also have a thorough knowledge and understanding as he did and present any calculation errors. There will always be detractors but as we have witnessed so much the last several years, most people don't live by facts but opinions and personal narratives to make themselves feel better about what they believe and who they follow.

[gc45]

I used to think it important but no longer feel that way. Like the song says;
"my faith is enough, my faith is enough".

[Cris T]

This will give a fascinating explanation:


https://youtu.be/55VRdLnkvDw

[redhawk0]

Personally, I don't think the date matters at all. We think in finite terms (calendar)...God (Three in one - Father, Son, Spirit) has always been and always will be. There are no dates involved. So why should we really care when Jesus was born. Sure we can celebrate his birth but one needs to remember that He is infinite. From time past to time future....the only part I really care about is that I'll be with my Savior into the future infinity.

redhawk

[Good Cheer]

Apparently God created time, we exist within the construct while in these meat suits and for some reason He included in our lesson plans the information on when Jesus was born. With Him doing that how could it not spark someones interest?
Answer: He made every one of us different so to each his own.

[groundpounder]

…and beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge…2Pe2:5

[LAH]

I'm pretty sure it wasn't Dec 25th! So when? What do you say, and why? Does it matter?

He was born in the fulness of time as Paul said: Galatians 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. That's my story & I'm sticking to it.

[Thundarstick]

He was born in the fulness of time as Paul said: Galatians 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. That's my story & I'm sticking to it.

To God be the glory! Amen!