First and probably last cast bullet deer

[Iwsbull]

Was really disappointed in the results I had. They are great to practice with and I suppose if I need to shoot through a large heavy animal but for deer not so much. 30 yards in one shoulder out behind the other shoulder or a drop of blood in the 120-150 yards it ran. 5 hours of searching not any blood. Even the last few yards to its final test nada.
I will either go j bullet or maybe try a hollow point. The swc with a .32 meplate (44 mag at 1260fps) just didn’t preform as I hoped.

[DougGuy]

I'll get the popcorn started...

[John McCorkle]

I'll get the popcorn started...Haha que the circus music

Sent from my moto g(7) power using Tapatalk

[Larry Gibson]

Little more info on handgun, bullet used [mould], alloy and load would be appreciated.

Perhaps (?) you've discovered why many of us prefer softer alloys and properly HP'd bullets at top end velocity for more effective terminal performance.

I like popcorn too......:popcorn:

[cwtebay]

Dang! I'm sorry to hear that. I am looking forward to hearing from members on the way to remedy this!
Would you mind sharing your load data?

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

[Texas by God]

At 30 yards a neck shot might have sufficed.

[megasupermagnum]

Don't give up on cast. Some guys like the nearly unlimited penetration a solid bullet provides. Me, I like a hollow point, they create a much larger wound.

[Iwsbull]

Ruger SRH 7 1/2” straight clip on and powder coated 43-258j very accurate bullet 13.5 grains hs-6 average mv 1264. Should have softened up some in the cook for the powdercoat. Head and neck were already behind the brush, narrow shooting lane. Love the load for targets but am going to look for a hp mold and start the work up again.
I might should have said last non hp deer instead.

[megasupermagnum]

If that shot good for you, try this one from NOE http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/product_info.php?cPath=37_202&products_id=1971&osCsid=7dlepp58lhgtlnkpag2a0dkt51

I found my accuracy load in my redhawk was with 13 grains Bluedot, and I cast them with the large hollow point and 20:1 alloy. I have not shot that particular load at a deer, but similar rounds have proven quite impressive.

[Don1357]

To paraphrase Yoda: one shot a trend does not make.

A bullet of a given hardness will mushroom at a given speed. Your speed/hardness combo seem to have been off. If I were to guess go softer or hollow point the bullet.

Or the stupid deer got lucky and it didn't damage anything that adrenaline could not overcome. It happens.

[DHDeal]

The bullet zipped right on through. I believe you did find the deer?

A MP hollowpoint mold with the big pin and 20/1 might be your ticket.

[Iwsbull]

Yep Loads of bacon tested them and it would appear that around 1100 FPS is the magic number for the large hp in the 44 to open and hold together in his test. It didn’t seem to matter whether it was 8.7 or 10.4 bhn.

[cwtebay]

I am sorry to hear about that experience! I have seen a bull elk shot 3 times with a 300 RUM with Berger 210gr at 475 yards with ZERO expansion, a whitetail buck shot at 15 yards with a 405 Winchester and a 300 grain Hornady - same result, and a cow elk shot with a 32 Special at 70 yards with cast that drilled straight through. My 2 pence is they all had something to do with suboptimal shot placement (high thorax on all) combined with poor bullet performance in each given scenario. The bull I killed this year survived a 30 caliber bullet in the high chest at least a year ago (passed from left, full mushroomed bullet found in right rib), as well as mechanical broadhead just above the sternum sometime in his past. Some critters are just tough sons of bucks!https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191231/0138cd0dbc4fdc77924ef98a80aca7a9.jpg
[IMG]https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191231/a24e352c339db91fe4a7818a3104e190.jpg

[Conditor22]

When you get a new scope, you put it on the rifle, aim, and shoot. IF it misses the mark, do you throw it away? Same with cast boolits. What do you think they killed all the buffalo with?

[Wheelguns 1961]

Cwtebay, that is one heck of a bull! Wow!

[Iwsbull]

Cwtebay I am in awe of your elk. Awesome kill congratulations on it.

[mebudman63]

Well I hog hunt here in Texas about twice a month. Most shots are within 60 yards and I usually take a head shot. i shoot a 450 Bushmaster with a RCBS 45-300-FN sized down to .452 on WW`s. This year for the 1st time in 25 years I deer hunted. Got 2 deer the same day. The doe was 104' and dropped on the spot. The buck was 124' and ran 10 feet and dropped. Both shots where thru and thru. There was blood splatter everywhere on both shots.

[Iwsbull]

I found hair and a piece of meat and hair about the size of the end of my pinky finger at the shot location then nothing maybe the extra velocity of the rifle made the difference.
Like I said I think a hp mold is in my future.

[dverna]

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1010865576?pid=224132

For $100 you can 400 of get these as they are currently on sale. Bullets that will work well on deer without any effort. It might take you 50-70 rounds to find an accurate load, leaving you with over 300 bullets to hunt with. This is the practical approach to killing deer and putting meat on the table. It is not "fun", if you define fun as buying molds, casting or drilling different HP's and testing them, and then testing different alloys that expand but do not lead.

Use cast loads to practice and plink with. Use you "fun" time working up a load that shoots to the same POI as the jacketed bullet you select. And, unless you enjoy pain, you will have more fun practicing with lower recoil cast loads instead of hunting loads.

BTW, I understand your frustration. You made a good shot and nearly lost the animal. You did your job but the bullet failed. I suspect there are quite a few people who have done the same...we just do not hear about it much. There is an interesting current thread on a gentleman who is doing ballistic gel testing on .38/.357 loads. It is enlightening to see how much velocity will impact cast bullet performance. It is a good read. Pay specific attention to a comment from Larry Gibson relating to using a binary alloy.

Lastly, not even every "good shot" will keep a deer anchored. I put a 165 gr .308 GameKing into the boiler room of a large doe. Got a great blood trial but the deer still ran over 50 yards. Stuff happens.

[Bloodman14]

I am wondering if the boolit had time to expand at all, given the short range and high velocity. A lower velocity would have sufficed, I am thinking, for a non-hollowpoint projectile.

[Hamish]

Ruger SRH 7 1/2” straight clip on and powder coated 43-258j very accurate bullet 13.5 grains hs-6 average mv 1264. Should have softened up some in the cook for the powdercoat. Head and neck were already behind the brush, narrow shooting lane. Love the load for targets but am going to look for a hp mold and start the work up again.
I might should have said last non hp deer instead.

I agree with you, you should move to jacketed to hunt.

[osteodoc08]

As long as you’re in the field and harvest the game animal cleanly, k care not what you use. I love my Hornady XTP for my revolver cartridges if I’m not using cast.

I challenge you to find some pure lead and mix with the wheel weights around 60/40 with a HP mold, if using PC, I’d recommend an even higher pure lead percentage. Then test fire into wet news print until you find the desired alloy for your velocity.

Confession time: I was so excited about firing my HP mold into milk jugs. Alloy was COWW. Distance was 15-20 feet. 41 Mag. The nose sheared off and the shank showed minimal expansion.......alloy too hard for intended use. Now more testing with softer alloy warranted. This is probably what happened with yours.

[Hickory]

A lot of people who shoot and use cast boolits for hunting make the mistake of using "hard" cast, 18 BHN or over. Which makes it almost like a full metal jacketed bullet poking a hole through an animal without much damage.
Another mistake is the belief that higher velocities (2000 fps) is better.
I have found that a hunting boolit cast at between 10 &12 BHN and traveling at around 1800 fps kills quickly and is hard enough to handle the pressures involved.
If you have a bad case of magnumitis, the shooting cast boolits might not be for you.

[Hickory]

Another thing to keep in mind when casting hunting boolits if you want good expansion even with solid points. Tin is what is needed.
A person can get the correct hardness, say 12 BHN, with lead & antimony, but any sort expansion will suffer, may even fragmentate.
A better boolit for hunting that expands well and holds together would be mostly lead & tin with very little or no antimony in the mix.
The draw back on lead & tin is you can only make your boolits just so hard. With a little linotype I can bring the BHN up to 12, which I feel is perfect for velocities around 1800 fps.

[richhodg66]

Never shot one with a handgun, but have shot several with .44 SWCs out of an inline muzzle loader and they worked fine, none traveled farther than a few yards. I've also killed quite a few with cast in rifles as small as 7mm and they drop as fast or faster in some cases than ones I've shot with full power jacketed loads in a .30-06.

Either your experience was a fluke, as stated sometimes deer don't seem to know they're dead, or you did something wrong. This forum is full of experiences by guys who successfully deer hunt with cast in handguns. It isn't really that hard, but if you're not comfortable with figuring it out, go back to jacketed.

[centershot]

I'll get the popcorn started...

Butter AND salt, please........

[Larry Gibson]

Ruger SRH 7 1/2” straight clip on and powder coated 43-258j very accurate bullet 13.5 grains hs-6 average mv 1264. Should have softened up some in the cook for the powdercoat. Head and neck were already behind the brush, narrow shooting lane. Love the load for targets but am going to look for a hp mold and start the work up again.
I might should have said last non hp deer instead.

That kind of terminal performance isn't all that unusual for a solid cast bullet of that velocity on deer, especially if the bullet went midway or higher through the shoulder. I had several black tail do the same when hit there or with a behind the shoulder shot. Those shots usually only damage lung and the deer can go a long way before it dies. Also the higher lung shots don't bleed out very much because the blood collects down in the lung cavity ….the deer essentially drowns as the blood collects in the cavity which is why the deer can go a long ways after being hit.

I learned to envision a soccer ball low in the chest cavity between the front legs. Putting a bullet through that soccer ball will usually break down one of both legs and damage the heart or the large artery/veins concentrated there. Also since the bullet holes are low the blood can drain or pump out to leave a blood trail. I also learned to use a HP cast bullet of the correct alloy.

I first started off, in the 44 magnum, with a 429421 "Keith" bullet HP'd. Results were better but I had to use a hard alloy to maintain accuracy with top end Magnum loads in the 1300 - 1400 fps range. I then tried a 429244 GC'd HP and it was excellent, especially with a binary alloy of 20-1 or 16-1 alloy. Then I found, for me anyway, the Holy Grail of HP cast bullets for the 44 Magnum.....The Lyman "Devastator" 429640 HP. My mould, with a 16-1 alloy, produces excellent HP bullets that weigh 270 gr fully dressed. I do not PC btw but AC them, use Hornady GCs, size at .430 and use BAC lube on them. I push those right at 1400 fps with excellent accuracy out of my 6 1/2" FTBH. I use that bullet for hunting only so the cost of 1000 GC is nil as is the slower casting pace with a single cavity HP mould. I cast strictly for quality with those bullets so speed of casting is not an issue. I have I have a Lee 6 holer [TL430-240-SWC] and two Lyman 4 holers [429421 and 429360] which cast copious amounts of bullets pretty fast for general/plinking/small game loads.

The Devastator is my preferred hunting bullet in my 44 Magnums, you might consider it.

253944

[ACC]

Was really disappointed in the results I had. They are great to practice with and I suppose if I need to shoot through a large heavy animal but for deer not so much. 30 yards in one shoulder out behind the other shoulder or a drop of blood in the 120-150 yards it ran. 5 hours of searching not any blood. Even the last few yards to its final test nada.
I will either go j bullet or maybe try a hollow point. The swc with a .32 meplate (44 mag at 1260fps) just didn’t preform as I hoped.

What you want is a soft boolit. 8-10 hardness at the most. They will expand for sure giving the results you and I want. That is why I am asking all the questions about mix and ratios. Anything over 10 hardness will not expand at all in my experiences. I shot a 110 pound feral hog last week with a 125 grain cast boolit out of my Ruger Blackhawk .357. I mixed my brothers mix with 10 pounds pure lead for what I believed to be about 9 hardness. Mushroomed like a factory JSP. 117 grains of boolit is what I found in the animal. Perfect mushroom. Hard boolits are nice but don't expect and expansion. Just my 2 cents worth.

ACC

[dangitgriff]

Don't give up on cast. Some guys like the nearly unlimited penetration a solid bullet provides. Me, I like a hollow point, they create a much larger wound.

If ya use a solid boolit, you can eat closer to the hole...[emoji1783]

[white eagle]

shot a doe this year with a 35 cal j bullet that was a perfect behind the shoulder shot
from a stable platform shot off a bi-pod with a 358 win model 70 rifle
deer went over a 100 yds with no blood,none,
thought I lost that deer this kinda stuff happens
keep after it

[murf205]

Those Midway XTP's are a killer deal AND free shipping over $49. Thank's, I believe I will.

[Iwsbull]

I love the XTP mag in my 454 have not used them in my 44. I used to use Zero brand 240 jsp before I started casting and they are a really good bullet.

[Iwsbull]

That kind of terminal performance isn't all that unusual for a solid cast bullet of that velocity on deer, especially if the bullet went midway or higher through the shoulder. I had several black tail do the same when hit there or with a behind the shoulder shot. Those shots usually only damage lung and the deer can go a long way before it dies. Also the higher lung shots don't bleed out very much because the blood collects down in the lung cavity ….the deer essentially drowns as the blood collects in the cavity which is why the deer can go a long ways after being hit.

I learned to envision a soccer ball low in the chest cavity between the front legs. Putting a bullet through that soccer ball will usually break down one of both legs and damage the heart or the large artery/veins concentrated there. Also since the bullet holes are low the blood can drain or pump out to leave a blood trail. I also learned to use a HP cast bullet of the correct alloy.

I first started off, in the 44 magnum, with a 429421 "Keith" bullet HP'd. Results were better but I had to use a hard alloy to maintain accuracy with top end Magnum loads in the 1300 - 1400 fps range. I then tried a 429244 GC'd HP and it was excellent, especially with a binary alloy of 20-1 or 16-1 alloy. Then I found, for me anyway, the Holy Grail of HP cast bullets for the 44 Magnum.....The Lyman "Devastator" 429640 HP. My mould, with a 16-1 alloy, produces excellent HP bullets that weigh 270 gr fully dressed. I do not PC btw but AC them, use Hornady GCs, size at .430 and use BAC lube on them. I push those right at 1400 fps with excellent accuracy out of my 6 1/2" FTBH. I use that bullet for hunting only so the cost of 1000 GC is nil as is the slower casting pace with a single cavity HP mould. I cast strictly for quality with those bullets so speed of casting is not an issue. I have I have a Lee 6 holer [TL430-240-SWC] and two Lyman 4 holers [429421 and 429360] which cast copious amounts of bullets pretty fast for general/plinking/small game loads.

The Devastator is my preferred hunting bullet in my 44 Magnums, you might consider it.

253944
At the speed you fire them do they hold together or do they do like a Nosler Partition and grenade wreaking havoc and the base goes on continuing mission right on out the other side. I may have a skewed view in what I want to see when I open the body cavity. What I saw yesterday was not what I want to see, I don’t want to be able to eat up to the hole, my dogs would take great offense at being deprived of their treats.
This morning I look like I had a threesome with two porcupines with all the briars and cuts and scratches along most of my ample body. I am too old to enjoy this every time I kill an animal. There has got to be a better way and I hope the hp is it.

[MT Gianni]

I have never had a shoulder shot that exited a deer through the opposite shoulder go more than 10 yards. I suspect it was rear of the shoulder.

[cwtebay]

There's a gentleman out of New Zealand named Nathan Foster that runs a company called Terminal Ballistics Research. He does extensive testing with an obscene amount of projectiles in numerous calibers and on numerous game species. I would bet that his research on his website would answer a lot of questions.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

[brewer12345]

This morning I look like I had a threesome with two porcupines with all the briars and cuts and scratches along most of my ample body.

Hilarious. Just had to say it.

FWIW, I think you had too hard of a bullet and it is possible that the hit was slightly off (tough to tell from your description). Funny things also do happen when the metal hits the meat. If you just want to go to jacketed you certainly can, but the fact that you are talking about another try suggests this is not the case. After all, if you really wanted the greatest efficiency in harvesting meat you would use a rifle or similar. IMO, your bullet was too hard. I shot a doe with a muzzleloader this fall. It was a 50 yard shot with a round ball and I would guess that the impact velocity wasn't significantly higher than your bullet was. I had a little more bore size going for me (.530 ball), but that didn't matter because the entry and exit wounds both showed expansion materially greater than projectile diameter. The big difference is that my ball was cast from SOWW with a BHN of 5 or 6 while your bullet was a lot harder.

I think a 16-1 or 20-1 wide meplat or hollow point would be a great choice at your velocities. Wet newspaper ballistic testing would be in order. I have to fool around with my 35 Rem after making rookie reloading mistakes with it, but I am planning to try 16-1 in my MP hollow point mold because I find the rifle has a definite speed limit over which accuracy disappears. If I were you, I would cast with your wide meplat mold and a hollow point mold (devastator) with 20-1 or 16-1 and do some testing.

[Larry Gibson]

At the speed you fire them do they hold together or do they do like a Nosler Partition and grenade wreaking havoc and the base goes on continuing mission right on out the other side. I may have a skewed view in what I want to see when I open the body cavity. What I saw yesterday was not what I want to see, I don’t want to be able to eat up to the hole, my dogs would take great offense at being deprived of their treats.
This morning I look like I had a threesome with two porcupines with all the briars and cuts and scratches along most of my ample body. I am too old to enjoy this every time I kill an animal. There has got to be a better way and I hope the hp is it.

I found with COWW + 2% tin then mixed 50/50 with lead I got minimal expansion with minimal petal loss at 44 magnum top end revolver velocities. Still, for me anyway, that alloy mix gave a bit too much of the "do like a Nosler Partition"] you mention which most often happens with just COWW alloy. Straight COWW alloy has too much antimony and not enough tin. Adding the 2% tin balances the antimony out in forming the sub-metal SbSn which stays in solution better in the lead. Adding the 50% lead then softens the alloy further allowing more controlled expansion with minimal petal loss. Using 16-1 [what I generally now use if the MV is 1250 to 1600 or 20-1 alloy with MVs of 1100 to 1250 fps] gives a very malleable or ductile alloy that lacking antimony expands better and holds together nicely. I've found it gives excellent terminal results much to your liking.....mine too.

Have to say I've only recovered one Devastator from a deer as that was with a frontal quartering shot. All the shoulder shots have been through and through with the longest deer travel of maybe 40 yards with a massive blood trail to follow. Have to admit that shot wasn't my best as it hit the rear part of the leg, smashed through a rib going in, traveled back through just lungs to smash another rib on the way out just above the sternum. Blood trail looked like someone was splashing a 5 gallon can of red paint back and forth. The deer was stone dead when I got to it.

[Iwsbull]

So do you think that a similar bullet design would also be good to go in a 454? Or do you or anyone have a suggestion for a 454. Of course I guess velocity is velocity as long as it is kept to 1600 or so FPS. I could use my coww supply for practice rounds and change and use 16-1 for hunting.
I do like the thought of running the higher velocities that you use instead of holding the speed down to less than 1300 as most people seem to suggest.

[DougGuy]

I got away from the XTP in the 44 because I was finding jacket and lead fragments all in the meat. They were shedding the jackets. 300gr XTP in 45 Colt over 22.5gr W296 killed deer two with one shot and stayed together, flattened all the way to the cannelure but still fragmented all the lead in front of that.

I use a Lee C430-300-RF in 44, cast soft enough that it scratches easily with a thumbnail, I use Felix lube or other real soft lube, and I do favor the gas checks that this boolit uses. Really don't need a hp if your wide meplat RNFP boolit is soft enough. Gas checks are a hunting gun's best friend if you want to use soft alloy and soft lube, it's a good combo and works really well. 50/50+2% air cooled works nicely.

[Winger Ed.]

If it was hit high in the lungs, it probably wouldn't matter very much what it was shot with, the result would be the same.
A deer's heart is lower in its body than most people think.

Of the ones I've hit and knocked off a chunk of their heart, all with 170 gr. .30 hard cast RN, at 70- 100 yards,
none took more than one or two steps.

[MT Gianni]

With bullets cast from an alloy that sticks together well forget what you knew about jacketed and break the shoulder, canon bones or both if possible. The best possible shot is to break the far shoulder. You can eat up to the hole. The near shoulder shot sends shrapnel of bones into the lung cavity which is good. The shot transmits to the spine which puts the animal down nearly immediately. I believe with the true shoulder front leg shot you loose less meat than with jacketed to the lungs, exit near a shoulder.

[Iwsbull]

I have always shot the shoulders on a deer with anything other than a bow. This deer was at a slight angle towards me and I had to shoot a bit further back on the shoulder due to the brush. I have made this shot many times with a rifle but with expanding ammo and I could always find blood if needed. I know they are not the same , but even with a 44 carbine, I had good results.
As I have said before maybe I have a skewed view of what to expect, but as light as our deer are I am going with a fast hp as LG suggested and uses.

[pmer]

Has anyone seen any difference using 16-1 or 20-1 with coated and non coated boolits?

[Drew P]

I’d be surprised if the problem was related to the material the bullet was made from.

[Iwsbull]

I’d be surprised if the problem was related to the material the bullet was made from.

What then do you believe to be the problem?

[glockky]

Here’s a doe shot with a AM 43-255R cast from 50/50 coww/pure lead at 1260fps.
254043

[kingrj]

Very sorry to hear that you had a bad experience with cast swc on deer. I have probably taken a dozen or so deer with cast swc's in various .44 mags, .45 colts and .45 acp's and never had one run over 30 yards. However I have shot some with a rifle that ran over 100! Deer can do just about anything when shot..even with a good hit. Hope you don't get discouraged.

[jimb16]

According to this discussion, my buck should not have dropped in his tracks when I hit him with a 230 gr rnfp from a .45 colt! I always thought it was bullet placement that was important......

[mike69]

So do you think that a similar bullet design would also be good to go in a 454? Or do you or anyone have a suggestion for a 454. Of course I guess velocity is velocity as long as it is kept to 1600 or so FPS. I could use my coww supply for practice rounds and change and use 16-1 for hunting.
I do like the thought of running the higher velocities that you use instead of holding the speed down to less than 1300 as most people seem to suggest.

I'm using a hollow point bullet cast from 96-2-2 alloy in my 454 in the 1500 plus fps range with good result on deer . I've only recovered one that went the length of the deer it opened up to the bottom of the hollow point and only lost one side of it I think from hitting the hind leg bone . the bullet I'am using is the NOE SC454-290-RF254166

[Iwsbull]

Excellent, I was hoping that someone using cast hollow points in a 454 would chime in. After Larry G. said he was using them in a 44 at around 1400 I was hopeful that they would hold together at 454 velocity as well. That has me thinking a hp mold is in my hear future.

[mike69]

Excellent, I was hoping that someone using cast hollow points in a 454 would chime in. After Larry G. said he was using them in a 44 at around 1400 I was hopeful that they would hold together at 454 velocity as well. That has me thinking a hp mold is in my hear future.

My alloy is close to Larrys 50-50 but with less pure lead . I use the lead alloy calculator to take my coww and tin and pure to get to the 96-2-2

[Michael J. Spangler]

That kind of terminal performance isn't all that unusual for a solid cast bullet of that velocity on deer, especially if the bullet went midway or higher through the shoulder. I had several black tail do the same when hit there or with a behind the shoulder shot. Those shots usually only damage lung and the deer can go a long way before it dies. Also the higher lung shots don't bleed out very much because the blood collects down in the lung cavity ….the deer essentially drowns as the blood collects in the cavity which is why the deer can go a long ways after being hit.

I learned to envision a soccer ball low in the chest cavity between the front legs. Putting a bullet through that soccer ball will usually break down one of both legs and damage the heart or the large artery/veins concentrated there. Also since the bullet holes are low the blood can drain or pump out to leave a blood trail. I also learned to use a HP cast bullet of the correct alloy.

I first started off, in the 44 magnum, with a 429421 "Keith" bullet HP'd. Results were better but I had to use a hard alloy to maintain accuracy with top end Magnum loads in the 1300 - 1400 fps range. I then tried a 429244 GC'd HP and it was excellent, especially with a binary alloy of 20-1 or 16-1 alloy. Then I found, for me anyway, the Holy Grail of HP cast bullets for the 44 Magnum.....The Lyman "Devastator" 429640 HP. My mould, with a 16-1 alloy, produces excellent HP bullets that weigh 270 gr fully dressed. I do not PC btw but AC them, use Hornady GCs, size at .430 and use BAC lube on them. I push those right at 1400 fps with excellent accuracy out of my 6 1/2" FTBH. I use that bullet for hunting only so the cost of 1000 GC is nil as is the slower casting pace with a single cavity HP mould. I cast strictly for quality with those bullets so speed of casting is not an issue. I have I have a Lee 6 holer [TL430-240-SWC] and two Lyman 4 holers [429421 and 429360] which cast copious amounts of bullets pretty fast for general/plinking/small game loads.

The Devastator is my preferred hunting bullet in my 44 Magnums, you might consider it.

253944


Larry this is one picture that always catches my eye. I’ve probably saved it and your description of this load a dozen times.

I was wondering if you would recommend the same style of load for a 357. I’m in on the 359640 group buy and figured those numbers would work just as well when matched up to similar 357 loads.
Of course there are 3 pin styles to work with but I’m guess I could load some and balance the use of say the cup point pin to the faster loads with the same 50/50 + 2% alloy. Then maybe the large hollow with that alloy and a middle magnum load.
Am I on track here?

[Iwsbull]

Those boolits that Mike and Larry cast with that huge crater in the top just look nasty, and the one that Mike recovered you can just tell it brought smoke all the way and held together really well at those speeds.
So it looks like either 16/1 or 50/50+2% for awesome hunting boolits.

[Screwbolts]

WOW, I really like popcorn also!

Ken

[Larry Gibson]

Larry this is one picture that always catches my eye. I’ve probably saved it and your description of this load a dozen times.

I was wondering if you would recommend the same style of load for a 357. I’m in on the 359640 group buy and figured those numbers would work just as well when matched up to similar 357 loads.
Of course there are 3 pin styles to work with but I’m guess I could load some and balance the use of say the cup point pin to the faster loads with the same 50/50 + 2% alloy. Then maybe the large hollow with that alloy and a middle magnum load.
Am I on track here?

Depends on what the 357 Magnum is fired in. With rifles, SS handguns and 8 - 10" revolvers you can get the velocity where the ternary alloy will expand well. However, in handguns with velocities under 1500 fps, I still prefer the 16-1 binary alloy. In revolvers where the magnum level velocity with be 1150 - 1350 fps I still prefer 20-1 alloy. I would first try those binary alloys if the GB 359640 is GC'd(?). If the GB bullet is PB or if the velocity is above 1500 fps then the ternary alloy will probably work best. With a new bullet such as the 359640 for use in a revolver what I would do is work up a magnum level load with the COWW + 2% tin +50% lead alloy and then cast some of all three alloys. I would then test for accuracy with hunting level being the acceptable criteria not "the best" accuracy. I would also test all three alloyed bullets for expansion and penetration with the magnum level load in sopping wet newsprint at 25 and 50 yards. Only such testing will answer your question for sure with what alloy the bullet expands well, holds together and gives sufficient penetration.

[res45]

straight clip on and powder coated 43-258j very accurate bullet 13.5 grains hs-6 average mv 1264. Should have softened up some in the cook for the powdercoat.

I didn't see it mentioned but the BHN of your COWW's want change any if much at all if you air cooled you bullets at casting and allowed them to air cool after powder coating, it stays pretty much the same. This chart will give you a general idea of what happens.
254206

[Michael J. Spangler]

Depends on what the 357 Magnum is fired in. With rifles, SS handguns and 8 - 10" revolvers you can get the velocity where the ternary alloy will expand well. However, in handguns with velocities under 1500 fps, I still prefer the 16-1 binary alloy. In revolvers where the magnum level velocity with be 1150 - 1350 fps I still prefer 20-1 alloy. I would first try those binary alloys if the GB 359640 is GC'd(?). If the GB bullet is PB or if the velocity is above 1500 fps then the ternary alloy will probably work best. With a new bullet such as the 359640 for use in a revolver what I would do is work up a magnum level load with the COWW + 2% tin +50% lead alloy and then cast some of all three alloys. I would then test for accuracy with hunting level being the acceptable criteria not "the best" accuracy. I would also test all three alloyed bullets for expansion and penetration with the magnum level load in sopping wet newsprint at 25 and 50 yards. Only such testing will answer your question for sure with what alloy the bullet expands well, holds together and gives sufficient penetration.

Thanks Larry!

[Iwsbull]

I didn't see it mentioned but the BHN of your COWW's want change any if much at all if you air cooled you bullets at casting and allowed them to air cool after powder coating, it stays pretty much the same. This chart will give you a general idea of what happens.
254206
Thanks for that chart that is very helpful. Thanks to everyone that has offered so much useful information. I really do appreciate it as it saves me and others so much time, money and frustration. Y’all have been a wealth of knowledge.

[wv109323]

If you punched a .44 cal. hole through a deer and there was no blood then the bullet was in the wrong place. With a pistol you do not get any hydro-shock so the bullet must pass through vital organs. Did you do any examination of the bullets path through the animal? The bullet may have hit a bone and was deflected away from the vital organs.

[35 Whelen]

Was really disappointed in the results I had. They are great to practice with and I suppose if I need to shoot through a large heavy animal but for deer not so much. 30 yards in one shoulder out behind the other shoulder or a drop of blood in the 120-150 yards it ran. 5 hours of searching not any blood. Even the last few yards to its final test nada.
I will either go j bullet or maybe try a hollow point. The swc with a .32 meplate (44 mag at 1260fps) just didn’t preform as I hoped.

I believe you made a bad shot. I think I understand that you recovered the deer (?), did you trace the path of the bullet?

I don't consider myself an expert, but I've killed a handful of deer, a couple of hogs and a javelina with cast bullets and when shot through the lungs or heart, they don't go far, at all.

Three weeks ago I shot this buck at 41 yds. with the pictured revolver (4 3/4" Uberti Frisco 45 Colt). Bullet was a 288 gr. SWC from an RCBS 45-270 SAA mold cast from ACWW with an average MV of 983 fps. Fired, heard the bullet hit, (I watched curiously as a tuft of white hair floated to the ground) and he ran off into the broomweeds and mesquites. I holstered my revolver and walked right to him some 25 or so yds. from where he was hit.

https://i.imgur.com/1nHMZSr.jpg

Here's what the entrance wound looked like-

https://i.imgur.com/cgKgUQ8.jpg

...and the hole through the lungs-

https://i.imgur.com/dzaKqe7.jpg

This is very typical of my experiences when shooting whitetails with cast solid SWC's be it .44 Special or 45 Colt. I've never lost one and never had one run over about 30 yds., if that. I've only recovered a single bullet, a 258 gr. SWC from an RCBS 44-250KT cast from ACWW. It struck a buck at about 1050 fps behind the last rib of the left side and travelled up to the juncture of the neck and the right shoulder.

https://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/Hunting/bullet_zpsd62d630c.jpg (https://s60.photobucket.com/user/308Scout/media/Hunting/bullet_zpsd62d630c.jpg.html)

I've used cast HP's three times so far. The first was from a 5 1/2" Uberti Bisley 45 Colt, a 265 gr. SWCHP (Miha's version of the RCBS 45-270) cast at 8.5 Bhn and running somewhere around 1060 MV. The buck was 48 yds, away and the bullet struck high behind the right shoulder clipping the spine and stopping under the hide on the far side. The buck never took a step.

https://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/Hunting/Spike%20with%2045%20Colt-%20reduced_zpsumim7nd2.jpg (https://s60.photobucket.com/user/308Scout/media/Hunting/Spike%20with%2045%20Colt-%20reduced_zpsumim7nd2.jpg.html)

https://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/Hunting/Bullet%20from%20Spike_zpsn1x49cvb.jpg (https://s60.photobucket.com/user/308Scout/media/Hunting/Bullet%20from%20Spike_zpsn1x49cvb.jpg.html)

Last year I shot a buck with my 7 1/2" Uberti Flat Top .44 Special. It was loaded with a 243 gr. SWCHP (Miha's version of the 429244) @ 8.5 Bhn running just over 1100 fps. He was at 38 yds. angling slightly right and away. The bullet hit behind the left shoulder, busted a couple of ribs, passed through the lungs, broke another rib or two, through the off shoulder and stopped under the hide. That buck too dropped where he stood and the bullet performed great-

https://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/Hunting/429244-2_zps9vrmnkgc.jpg (https://s60.photobucket.com/user/308Scout/media/Hunting/429244-2_zps9vrmnkgc.jpg.html)

The other HP kill was from my Rossi .357 carbine and the bullet was a 162 gr. RNFPHP from a Miha mold, 8.5-9.0 Bhn. It was running 1700 fps MV and struck a sow at 40 yds. high in the left shoulder, angled down and stopped under the hide on the far side. I also cast the same bullet with smaller HP cavity weighing closer to 170 grs. that I'd intended to use, but the cartridges with those bullets were in the magazine, not the chamber :p. Anyhow she didn't run too far and the bullet did pretty good.

https://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/Hunting/26813_zpsgge6pjfb.jpeg (https://s60.photobucket.com/user/308Scout/media/Hunting/26813_zpsgge6pjfb.jpeg.html)

https://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/Hunting/357%20Carbine%20bullet_zpso8w7xbdx.jpg (https://s60.photobucket.com/user/308Scout/media/Hunting/357%20Carbine%20bullet_zpso8w7xbdx.jpg.html)

So, I've only killed two deer and the sow with HP's, but in both cases of the deer they dropped where they stood. If I knew I would only have broadside shots, I might use HP's from now on, but I see two problems with HP's- 1) Penetration is greatly reduced due to the larger frontal area. If I have to pick between a bigger hole and assured penetration, I'm going to take penetration every time. 2) HP's require velocity to expand which means more recoil and noise. Conversely, the solid SWC's I've used on game in all but one case struck at less than 950 fps, some of them closer to 900 fps, and they all worked fine.

SO there you are....

35W

[jonp]

There's a gentleman out of New Zealand named Nathan Foster that runs a company called Terminal Ballistics Research. He does extensive testing with an obscene amount of projectiles in numerous calibers and on numerous game species. I would bet that his research on his website would answer a lot of questions.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

Been reading his stuff for several years and it's quite interesting. Instead of a lot of range work, theoretical stuff etc he has real world tests on calibers that is good reading.

This article on the 35 Whelen that I saved is an example of some of the writings you can find there: https://www.ballisticstudies.com/Knowledgebase/.35+Whelen.html

[Thumbcocker]

A former member here, 44man, swore by wfn boolits cast of wdww. He got good results and dead deer. I have shot deer with Keith boolits cast of acww and the NOE 265 rnfp of wdww. Got dead deer when I put them in the right place. I have shot deer with muzzle loaders with round balls and great plains boolits, 12 guage slugs Breneke and home cast, and .44 handguns with Keith and NOE boolits. When I placed them properly the results were pretty much the same. Deer ran 20-50 yards and fell over. High lung shots kill a bit quicker but have less blood trail. Low lung shots take a bit longer but leave a good trail. Heart shots have resulted in a huge blood trail but the deer travel the farthest. This year I made what I thought was a good shot on a big buck. Lost the trail, called in a blood hound and trailed him. Last saw him 1/4 mile away and the dog handler called off pursuit. I wrote off the $100 fee as the cost of my not placing the boolit in the right place.

Sometimes I mess up and sometimes stuff just happens. I have killed a fair pile of deer with handguns and lost a few. I hate losing a deer and try very hard to make good shots. Sometimes stuff just happens. I still have absolute faith ina well placed. 44 boolit for putting venison in the freezer.

[JNG3]

I'll add my two cents in-


I've killed well in excess of 100 deer. The hunt club I've belonged to for the last 15 or so years has seen an average of 20 deer killed per year (we are at 21 deer now) (4 of which are mine). I've hunted deer for 29 years (yes I really have killed an average of 3-4 deer per year!)

I've killed deer with a compound bow, crossbow, (all fixed blades), shotgun slug (20 and 12 gauge, rifled and sabot), muzzleloader (45 and 50, round ball and sabot), centerfire rifle (.243 win, 308 win, 30-30 all jacketed).

My point to all of this is NEVER judge a projectiles performance based on 1 kill (or loss). Big game animals will run after the shot unless the shot shuts down the central nervous system. We study every kill at the club. Shot placement, distance, projectile ballistics, distance animal ran after shot, quantity of blood on ground for trailing, organs/bones effected by shot, etc, etc, etc. You know what conclusion has been made? NOTHING is a guarantee other than the projectile must traverse both lungs. It's that simple. Place your shot in the lower lungs, put a hole in BOTH lungs and you have a dead deer. You WILL have to track the deer, but the deer will be dead. The problem lies in tracking the deer.

I've seen blood trails a blind man could follow from a tiny (barely 1") fixed blade broadhead and yet virtually no blood from a 1.75" mechanical broadhead. Both lung shots. Horrific, b flick horror movie blood trails from a shotgun slug on one deer yet the same slug, same gun, same hunter, nearly the same shot distance and placement on the next deer nearly resulted in a lost deer and a very long tracking job. Both were lung shots. Blood on the ground for tracking is a direct result of lower chest hits, number of and size of blood vessels cut, and it's better to have 2 holes in the chest than only the entrance hole. And hopefully the holes don't plug up with fat, hair, tissue, leaves, debris, etc.

To the OP, you could shoot your next deer with the same cast bullet load and be very happy with the results. Lots of blood and a short tracking job. Use enough gun, enough bullet and put it in the lungs and you will kill deer. Some will just require a bit more effort in finding.

[35 Whelen]

Maybe I've been lucky, but in 40 years of shooting deer, I've never had to track a single one, even the ones that didn't die on the spot. Just walk in the general direction of where they ran and start looking.

In my younger days I gut shot a couple of deer and learned that a deer that is hurting will go to the nearest thick place where he can lay down and hide. Years ago a fella on our hunting lease shot a buck out in the wide open. He was sure he hit him but couldn't find him. I was gone due to my daughter being born so didn't get back down there until a couple of weeks later when a blood trail or even tracks were long gone. I went to the spot where he'd shot the deer, then from there proceeded to the nearest cedar break where I found the dead buck, with his snout blown off by a botched head shot by the hunter.

35W

[curioushooter]

First, I will say I am entirely unsuprised by solid cast bullet performing rather poorly on deer. At even magnum handgun velocities, solids of an alloy hard enough to work properly simply do not expand. So you get a caliber sized hole in the animal. .430 is just not that big. If shot placement is less than ideal (like perpetrating only some of the lobes of the lung) it may be a slow death by drowning for the deer. A proper hollowpoint offers much better terminal performance by enlarging the wound volume 2-3x vs the solid of the same caliber. I routinely get over .6" of expansion from .36 caliber cast hollow point bullets and with sufficient penetration to work on typical deer.

This said, I will give you a tip about tracking deer. I've only lost one deer in my life and that was due to a non-expanding 44 Mag slug. After I learned a bit about tracking, and got a natural tracking dog, I've never lost one and none of my friends have either.

The most important tip is to not immediately go charging out to the kill. Shoot the deer in the "boileroom" as I call it. If you have good eyes and a scope and are working with cartridges like 44 Mag you should be able to visually confirm if you hit the deer. Just sit there and wait. The deer may present another shooting opportunity. Another deer may present itself. Remember which direction the deer went. Do not start to tack until several minutes have passed, ideally about 20-30. The reason is that if you charge out at the deer you will get its flight response charging and it will run as hard and fast as it can. If you just sit there the wound is more confusing to the animal than provocative. They didn't evolve to dodge bullets or arrows. They evolved to escape pursuing predators. Don't act like one of those predators. Once learning this chill approach to tracking, I've found even poorly hit deer that were still very much alive often just wander somewhere bleeding and bed down. I've delivered coup de grace on them with knives found this way.

If it's really bad a beagle or other hound may naturally track the blood. My dogs smelling ability is so keen she can smell the deer on branches and and such that she passed by even if there is no blood. That said I don't like to go and get my dog if I can avoid it.

I also don't take shots where I am uncertain if I can hit the animal in the "boileroom." This may mean a lost opportunity, but I personally feel that since I am engaging in essetially a recreational activity, that I do not desire potentially aggravating outcomes like the deer going off property, etc. I wish most hunters shared this attitude, but where I live it's more of a shoot first and frequently and sort it out later dynamic.

Cast Hollopoints are not hard to make once you understand how. And their performance can be predicted with about $50 of homebrew ballistic gel. I have already suggested a subforum for this topic in particular, but so far it seems to have gone nowhere. Let me just say that cast hollowpoints MUST be tested IMO. Their performance is unpredictable and has a much narrower performance envelope than jacketed HPs.

I wouldn't give up on cast bullets, just cast solids for deer with a 44 mag revolver. Most states prohibit the use of FMJs for a reason. Cast solids at normal handgun velocities have even poorer performance. There was a guy from Sweden on here a few weeks ago. Apparently there you must demonstrate the ammunition you use to hunt works as intended. Since he wanted to use cast bullets he had to prove to the authorities that they expand. Though I do not condone such intrusiveness by authorities, I do respect their due diligence. At rifle velocities (like over 1600 FPS impact velocities they do expand). My 357 max I load with 180s and go for the most velocity I can with a solid. I can get it up to 1800 FPS+ which means at the 75 yard max I am able to place a shot well, it will expand. But out of my 357 mag revolver the same bullet will drill nothing more than a 36 caliber hole.

[Savvy Jack]

Was really disappointed in the results I had. They are great to practice with and I suppose if I need to shoot through a large heavy animal but for deer not so much. 30 yards in one shoulder out behind the other shoulder or a drop of blood in the 120-150 yards it ran. 5 hours of searching not any blood. Even the last few yards to its final test nada.
I will either go j bullet or maybe try a hollow point. The swc with a .32 meplate (44 mag at 1260fps) just didn’t preform as I hoped.

Like Foghorn Leghorn once said..."you're doing it all wrong son..."

Use softer lead

[curioushooter]

Use softer lead

Still wont matter.

I've shot 32:1 at 1200 FPS into calibrated ballistic gelatin. It leaded the barrel and didn't expand much. Just sort of flattened the nose a little. Bullet was under 40 caliber.

However, even at 800 FPS, the same alloy will expand beautifully as a hollow-point and not lead the barrel. It is an excellent alloy for 38 special with a bullet heavy enough (>155 grains).

16:1 and 20:1 alloy are often recommended for Cast HPs with magnums. I've had a little leading with both. Elmer Keith recommended these alloys but even admitted to expect a little leading. They do work, but you better have a Lewis lead remover and not expect it to go for long practice sessions without your accuracy falling apart. Such alloys are also very expensive because tin is very expensive.

[sgms18]

If you shoot em in the neck it dosen't seem to matter much what you use. The last 8 deer I shot I shot in the neck & they all droped like a rock. Doubt I'll ever shoot another one through the chest unless it's a long long way off.

[Savvy Jack]

Well, then junk the over rated 44 magnum and pick up a 44-40.

Never took a step...in at the scapula, right turn at Albuquerque...down the spinal cord and lodged in the hind quarter. But then again, it is a little baby deer.
65 yards, 1,300fps
Hornady 240gr lead hollow point

254524

254521

254522

254523

[Lance Boyle]

Being in an area for bow only as a young man I got good at tracking deer. A good shot, lung or/and liver and they can make some distance. Sometimes the leave a massive blood tail sometimes the blood trail doesn’t start showing up heavy until you almost find the deer in a few more yards.

Hell I blasted my first deer with a 12 gage in the shotgun area. I thought I lost it and was scratching my head how with a 30 yard shot with a rifle sighted 12 gage. My dad and I tracked it by foot prints (among other deer), A hundred yards before we saw blood, then gallons of it for ten yards where the deer circled back and keeled over.

No guarantees.

I have yet to hunt with or take game with my .38-55 high wall. I have 20:1 for loads now but it sounds like even softer might be smart,

[lar45]

Well I hog hunt here in Texas about twice a month.
I shoot a 450 Bushmaster with a RCBS 45-300-FN sized down to .452 on WW`s.

Sorry for the thread drift here.
Hello mebudman63 , I Hog hunt here in southern Arkansas a little. This year I got 2 with a muzzle loader, one with a 6.5x55, 3 with a 300 Win Mag. Also caught 4 in a trap and a buddy gave me one, so the freezer is packed and we shared with friends...
I don't have a good cast load for my Ruger AR in 450 Bushmaster, would you be willing to share any details of your 450 Bushmaster loads? ... Bolt action, AR or ??? Water dropped, or Air Cooled WW? Powder Coated? COAL, seated touching or into the lands? Feeds from mags at what length?
Sorry for all the questions, feel free to start a seperate thread if there's a lot of details. Or you could just PM me to keep the thread on topic.
Thanks a bunch
Glenn.

[The Old Man]

Was really disappointed in the results I had. They are great to practice with and I suppose if I need to shoot through a large heavy animal but for deer not so much. 30 yards in one shoulder out behind the other shoulder or a drop of blood in the 120-150 yards it ran. 5 hours of searching not any blood. Even the last few yards to its final test nada.
I will either go j bullet or maybe try a hollow point. The swc with a .32 meplate (44 mag at 1260fps) just didn’t preform as I hoped.


You might try adjusting your shot placement a bit. I'm certain this isn't your first rodeo, but since I had similar trouble more yeasrs back than I care to remember, this seems like a pay it forward moment.

I was told to follow the front leg to the body, then continue half way into the body, and pull the trigger. Puts a hole into lungs and/or heart while at the same time causing problems with moving the legs.....they generally go straight down when you do it correctly. I used to place the shot centering the lungs, but they always ran, and not always with decent blood either. Hope I wasn't too forward, and that this helps. You'll be amazed how many hunters don't do it'

[Lance Boyle]

You might try adjusting your shot placement a bit. I'm certain this isn't your first rodeo, but since I had similar trouble more yeasrs back than I care to remember, this seems like a pay it forward moment.

I was told to follow the front leg to the body, then continue half way into the body, and pull the trigger. Puts a hole into lungs and/or heart while at the same time causing problems with moving the legs.....they generally go straight down when you do it correctly. I used to place the shot centering the lungs, but they always ran, and not always with decent blood either. Hope I wasn't too forward, and that this helps. You'll be amazed how many hunters don't do it'



Everybody has their own logic.

Mechanical breakdown ie shoot the leg bone on the way to the lungs.
Save the meat of the front shoulder and shoot behind the shoulder or the neck
Aim for brown.....


This year my 260 mangled the front shoulders, a diagonal shot,