automating my Mark IV Ballisti-cast bullet caster need input.

[6bg6ga]

<ebay link removed as they're forbidden>

Was wondering if this stepper motor would work. I have no experience with stepper motors but my thought was to remove the hand operated crank on the caster and install a sprocket with chain to a sprocket on the stepper motor as a method of revolving the main assembly. Program it to rotate after the lead was poured and solenoid for lead pour was off rotate about 30 degrees and pause followed by a revolution to TDC where lead pour would again start.

The stepper control would be tied into a computer.

[pastera]

Would need to know the torque required to crank the caster to answer.

Do you have a decent site for the machine?


The stepper has a holding torque of 6.6 ft-lbs and the AD has no torque/speed graphs, assume 60% usable at 200 rpm. So whatever torque needed is going to need to be delivered by a 4ft-lb source.
IE: 40 ft-lb operating force would require a 10-1 gearing to work (at a 200 RPM stepper speed that would be a 3 second minimum cycle time)

[6bg6ga]

I have a large metal table it could be bolted to. At the most it would require about 10ft lb to operate my guess. I would have to unbolt it from the bench and get an allen wrench socket to put in the torque wrench to take an accurate measurement. The bolt in the end of the shaft is an Allen head. Worst case would be 15ft lbs to operate with the most torque to cut the sprew.

[6bg6ga]

Anyone? I really need some help here as how to go with the motor selection.

[jmorris]

Why a stepper motor?

Can you not just use a regular gear motor and a crank on the shaft to turn the rotation into a linear movement?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2U1ujg_nzo

[6bg6ga]

253998

253999

Contacting sprew plate

254000

Rotating mass at TDC

254001

Remove handle and install sprocket in place of it.

Maybe I'm trying to complicate things.

Mold at TDC receives lead and pauses for lead to harden a little before moving on. Rotation continues and sprue plate contacts rod which shears the sprue and the sprue plate moves and drops sprue in container at front of machine. Rotation continues and bullets leave mold and rotation continues until the mold arrives at TDC where it contacts a micro switch to shut off rotation timer. Motor stops and lead pour cycle begins by activation of a solenoid attached to the lead pour lever to fill mold when this timed action quits the motor again is started.

My conception which may need to be reviewed.

My line of thinking tells me a need some type of gear reduction motor whose rate/RPM can be controlled and I need a solenoid controlled by a timed relay to activate the lead valve and possibly more switches and control.

If I had purchased a Magma I wouldn't be in this boat. As you can see by the pictures the Ballisti-cast is much different.

[6bg6ga]

Mine is a two mold version of the MARK X

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPEs9Tinrh4

[jmorris]

You can see the switch on the back of the arm in the video above. When it is depressed it activates a time delay relay. I used a 10 turn pot for precision adjustment of time delay. The relay is double pole double throw. So, when it’s triggered one leg cuts power to the motor, stopping it, while the other leg applies power to the solenoid pulling the arm to pour lead.

With a rotating linkage like you have you could use a sprocket or gear and just put posts off it to activate your control switch.

Kind of like my autoreset plate racks.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tqp7WFw9zEc

Except instead of opening the circuit, you trigger a time delay relay that does and simultaneously pours l lead. You would need two posts for two molds, 4 for 4, etc.

[6bg6ga]

I drew up a schematic that should provide the control I need. I will try to post it.
I also added a master sw for lead shutoff , master motor off, secondary control voltage off. I addition I have shown the cycle switch for TDC of the rotating body.

254037

I tried to change it and it keeps reverting back. It should open up in your PDF reader you can right click on it and rotate it clockwise so it is viewable.


I'm trying to keep the project cost down thus the use of a 24VDC power supply to run the relay control voltage. Used solenoid. Motor yet to me found. Suggestions appreciated. It takes about 10ft lbs to rotate the assemble when you contact the sprue plate. Need a speed control setup I believe because I don't think I can guess the correct RPMS needed. Thinking about a Bodine 32Y5BEPM-5F and a Bodine 835 speed control box.

Open to suggestions.

[6bg6ga]

How the control works

Jmorris got me motivated enough that I sat down and drew up the control for my Ballisti-cast Mark IV bullet caster. Using a relay and relay socket I happen to have on hand I made it as simple as my flawed mind could. My Ballisti-cast has a rotating mass (for lack of better terminology) that has two mold bolted to. You basically hit the lead pour to fill the molds and then pull the arm down and that rotates the center mass. At about 120 degrees from TDC the sprue plate contacts an arm that moves the sprue plate and the sprue falls into a container and as the rotation continues the bullets fall down a chute into a catch basin to cool. You follow thru and the rotating mass is now at the top for mold #2 cycle.

My control would have a start switch at TDC of the rotational mass weather in the machine or contacting the rotating mass sprocket. Once the switch is closed the timed relay starts and the rotational motor stops (DPDT relay). The part “A” of the switch controls the solenoid for lead pour. The part “B” opens up the motor control leg (Hot to the motor.) At top the lead pour starts and is controlled by the potentiometer in the control a 20K pot which will be switched out to a 10 turn or more precision sealed pot.

Proofs so far…..

We have the following conditions….

We have a switch SW 1 that is a lead pour switch ( turns off the hot going to the pin #1 on the relay) a safety switch in a manor which allows an emergency turn off if needed or simply non allowance of the lead pour function for testing or whatever.

We have a control switch #4 in the hot leg of the primary of the transformer that supplies the power for the relays control. If it is on there is power at the primary of the transformer.

We have control switch #3 which provides a master on and off function for the motor.

We have the “RUN SWITCH” switch #2 which is the cycle switch for the machine. When the switch is on the motor turns off, the timed lead pour occurs the mold is filled and the motor energizes upon completion of the lead cycle.

The switches SW 1, SW3, SW 4 are in fact safeties or means of controlling the operation of the machine. They allow me to turn off the motor, safety turn off for the solenoid, and control voltage to the primary of the transformer (relay power.)

I could incorporate some type of light to come on signaling the positive conditions of each control switch if desired.

Why did I complicate the control with additional switches when I could have gone the bare necessity route and simply pulled the plug on the unit? The word safety comes to mind. In my years of working in factories and in the world of audio and video I’ve discovered thru the act of running machines that control does fail sooner of later. So what some might consider to be excess I consider to be barely functional. Now I could incorporate a number of different sensors but that would serve to complicate things. This is the simplest that my geriatric mind could conceive.

I'm open to comments and suggestions.

Thanks

I could incorporate control in the PID on the Ballisti-cast to not allow operation until the lead reached an allowable temp level. Is that over-complicating things?

[6bg6ga]

Additional

My relay a Potter & Brumfield is a precision timed relay with the capability to alter the function conditions. My instance has me choosing the ( interval on ) setting which means when voltage is supplied to the control pins 2 &7 the relay starts its cycle as determined by the pots position. The capabilities for timing are .1-1 sec, 1-10seconds, 10-100 seconds with several other settings up to 100 minutes.

Solenoid is a Dormeyer PN 2005-M2 which I also have on hand.

[jmorris]

On mine I made a pour timer and another “cool” timer where I could pause the machine with the mold open, for an adjustable amount of time if it were to get too hot in operation.

One latching on/off so the pot could get to temperature before the motor and solenoid start doing their thing, another “cycle” button so the motor would run but not pour lead and one additional switch where I could reverse the motor, if something were to occur where I needed to back the mechanism up.

I used some fairly small gear motors for mine and no key way on the arm that runs everything so the motors would stall or the arm would slip on the shaft before it could mangle any of the machines parts. I would either have some fail safes like that or current limiting in the circuit, you don’t want your machine capable of hurting itself.

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/magma-engineering-master-caster.158478/#post-1944416

[6bg6ga]

I have my PID control setup to automatically start the fan when I reach a specific temperature. I think I will incorporate a fail safe into the control that simply will lock out motor and lead pour operation until the lead is at a specific temperature. The factory blower aids to cool the mold in the 6 o clock position up to TDC.

[6bg6ga]

Any ideas on motor choice? I was leaning toward the bodine gear reduction motor with speed control but I don't know if I should drive it direct or use a sprocket on the motor which drives a chain which turns a sprocket on the rotational mass shaft. Either type would allow for speed adjustment or reversal with the addition of a switch to the circuit.

254058 254059

I cannot remember the name of the joint for the direct drive setup I do remember their being a mating piece on the shaft being driven and a rubber piece between them.

[6bg6ga]

On mine I made a pour timer and another “cool” timer where I could pause the machine with the mold open, for an adjustable amount of time if it were to get too hot in operation.

One latching on/off so the pot could get to temperature before the motor and solenoid start doing their thing, another “cycle” button so the motor would run but not pour lead and one additional switch where I could reverse the motor, if something were to occur where I needed to back the mechanism up.

I used some fairly small gear motors for mine and no key way on the arm that runs everything so the motors would stall or the arm would slip on the shaft before it could mangle any of the machines parts. I would either have some fail safes like that or current limiting in the circuit, you don’t want your machine capable of hurting itself.

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/magma-engineering-master-caster.158478/#post-1944416

What is the best way of sizing the motor? I could use a allen socket with my torque wrench and get a full idea on torque requirements. I would assume once the torque desired is know then a simple calculation of in lbs to ft lbs conversion?

[jmorris]

That should do it, might let the sprue cool a bit more than normal so you can have a “worst case” number to go from. Would also be interesting how much force requirements go up to shear the sprue in various conditions.

I just started out with the smallest one I had on hand that I though would work and it did.

The coupling above on the right is a Lovejoy coupling the part between the two is the “spider” (they can be had in various materials depending of torque requirements).

[6bg6ga]

That should do it, might let the sprue cool a bit more than normal so you can have a “worst case” number to go from. Would also be interesting how much force requirements go up to shear the sprue in various conditions.

I just started out with the smallest one I had on hand that I though would work and it did.

The coupling above on the right is a Lovejoy coupling the part between the two is the “spider” (they can be had in various materials depending of torque requirements).

I'm going to run out and pick up a grade 8 bolt to torque down and take a no lead on the sprue plate measurement. My smallest gear reduction motors are only rated at 42in lb which equates to probably 3.5ft lbs.

[jmorris]

Don’t forget any further reduction you might add after the motor. Thats how that power window motor in #8 can lift all that steel, the multiplier after the gear motor, that is.

[6bg6ga]

Well, took some measurements after taking a good hard look at the machine. First I will be unable to reverse the motor because at the bottom of the cycle the drum pieces are machined to provide an extremely fast open time and serve to jar the mold upon opening. The machine took less than 10ft lbs to rotate without lead in the mold or on top of the sprue plate. Upon investigation I discovered that the pin the sprue plate contacts to open the plate was way far out of adjustment. I readjusted it and took more measurement and this dropped the non-loaded operational force to around 3 ft lbs at the most. Put lead in the mold and rotated to shear the sprue and the force didn't change but very little. Went thru several more cycles allowing the lead to harden to the point of extreme difficulty and the worst case force needed was about 8-9ft lbs with an average of around 5ft lbs.

I had to rotate the camera in order to get in close for a good shot. The machined portion of the drum that the roller just passed is at 6:00 position. Its impossible to reverse and back up once past this point.

[6bg6ga]

Don’t forget any further reduction you might add after the motor. Thats how that power window motor in #8 can lift all that steel, the multiplier after the gear motor, that is.

Got ya. I'm on the fence as to how to run it. I can gear it down or run it direct. So, if I understand you correctly gearing it down will increase my torque ability allowing me to use a small motor to do the same task. So if I change the gearing so the driven shaft rotates 1/2 of the one driving it would it be like my 42 lb in X2 ?

[jmorris]

Yep, not counting friction a 1:1 or direct drive would give you motor output torque. A 2:1 reduction would double it a 1:2 increase in speed would cut it in half.

[6bg6ga]

Gear motor should be here tomorrow and then the hunt for either a piece of aluminum to mount the bullet caster and motor on or the less costly heavier piece of steel. I could have gotten a piece of aluminum in Iowa for probably around $22 so it will probably cost three times that much in Arizona. Also have my timed relay. Currently looking for sprockets for use on a 5/8" shaft.

[6bg6ga]

I received my Bodine gear reduction motor yesterday. Its a stout motor capable of over 20ft lbs of torque. Next to find a chunk of aluminum.

254507

Its a pretty good sized motor. It came with a 10 tooth sprocket with the number PF 0713 on it. 5/8" shaft on the ballisti-cast and 3/4" on the motor.

The sprocket that came with the motor measures 1.835 tip to tip across. Bottom of the notch across to the bottom of the next notch is about .445

Looks like a #40 chain.

[6bg6ga]

Anyone have a #40 twenty tooth sprocket for a 5/8 shaft and some chain they want to sell reasonably.

[6bg6ga]

I have parts in hand now.

[skeettx]

Looking forward to updates
Mike

[6bg6ga]

Need an answer from someone experienced with sprockets.

The motor came with a 10t 3/4" bore sprocket which I assumed was 1/2" pitch. I figured I was set for that sprocket so I ordered a 20tooth 1/2" pitch sprocket for the bullet caster along with a chain. The problem now is the chain cannot be tightened. Do I have the wrong sprocket selection? I'm wondering now if the motor sprocket is slightly different in pitch or something.

[jmorris]

I don’t understand the question, if the chain won’t lay down (doesn’t fit) in the sprocket, it’s the wrong pitch. Has nothing to do with tightening it though.

Might take a look at these.

https://www.rollerchain4less.com/ansi-roller-chain-dimension-chart

https://www.usarollerchain.com/Metric-Roller-Chain-Chart-s/4870.htm

https://www.efficientplantmag.com/2012/05/the-basics-of-roller-chain-sprockets/

[NoZombies]

I'll be keeping an eye on this, eventually I'd like to add automation to the mark X. Too many other projects on the table at the moment, but one day soon...

[6bg6ga]

I don’t understand the question, if the chain won’t lay down (doesn’t fit) in the sprocket, it’s the wrong pitch. Has nothing to do with tightening it though.

Might take a look at these.

https://www.rollerchain4less.com/ansi-roller-chain-dimension-chart

https://www.usarollerchain.com/Metric-Roller-Chain-Chart-s/4870.htm

https://www.efficientplantmag.com/2012/05/the-basics-of-roller-chain-sprockets/

I figured after I posted this that the motor sprocket from China must be something slightly off the #40. I ordered a new sprocket for the motor. Since I have a #40 chain and a sprocket for the Mark IV that is 1/2" pitch the only logical solution was to replace the motor sprocket with something of a known pitch that would mate with what I have.

To be honest I don't know for sure what the exact pitch of the motor sprocket is/was. I got tired of trying to get it to mate correctly and simply ordered something that I know what it is. It doesn't seem to conform to U.S. specifications or Metric. If I had a chunk of the original chain it would have helped.

[6bg6ga]

Due to the lack of a piece of 1/2" aluminum plate that I wanted I bolted the Mark IV directly to my bench along with the motor. Yesterday I mounted a 120 volt solenoid to the frame of the Mark IV along with a pull cable. Going to use what I have in hand right now to get it working. The new sprocket for the motor will arrive Monday. I currently have a optical switch and a programmable relay I'm going to employ to time and cycle the caster. The optical switch will be operated off the mold/crank assembly and break the beam every 180 degrees to operate and stop the crank assembly in order to properly align the molds for lead pour. The switch assembly will be a primitive arm off the end of the crank that will rotate with the crank and act simply to break the light beam in the Omron E3S-GS30E4 switch.

OSHA will not be happy because I don't have a chain guard in place. So, don't do as I do. When I can get out and around (gout attack now) I will obtain some sheet metal in which to make a guard for the chain and the rotating arm that acts as a sensor trip.

Pictures to follow when I can along with a video.

[6bg6ga]

Proof that I am working on it
256826256827256828

Sorry for the sideways pictures from the phone. I tried to rotate and save but they still come up wrong.

Picture on the left the optical switch and a piece of paint stir stick just to prove operation for right now.

Other pictures show the timed relay that will control the motor operation and the motor speed control box.

I will fabricate a more substantial way to trip the optical sensor after I get it running properly. Lacking a machine shop I have to use whatever I can find in the garage that is handy.

Operation is quite simple.

A power supply provides power to the optical sensor and its optical closure provides the missing power leg to the timed relay. When the relay is activated at TDC of the crank power to the Bodine motor is interrupted and at the same time the lead pour is started which is controlled by the programmable timed sequence. Once the lead is poured into the mold with sufficient sprew the relay will reset. Once reset the motor once again begins to turn the crankshaft the sprew plate hits the stop the mold opens and dumps the bullets and the 2nd mold is at TDC and the cycle begins all over again.

Easier terms?... when the mold hits TDC the motor quits because the N/C contacts on the number one set of contacts in the relay opens up. At the same time the other set of contacts #2 makes contact which is controlled by the adjustment variable resistor/pot on top of the relay which activates the lead pour solenoid for a preset time determined by the pots resistance. This timed relay controls the motor run and lead pour. The motor speed is controlled by the variable DC power supply that feeds the motor.

This in my mind has the capability to work properly and to provide some needed relief to my arthritic shoulders. Its not really a quest for speed in so much as a consistent way to run the machine.

[6bg6ga]

I thru caution to the wind yesterday and started it up. With the loose chain it ran sort of jerky but the concept was proven. Monday a different motor sprocket will arrive and things should work ok.

[onelight]

jmorris I never get tired of looking at the stuff you build, thanks for posting the videos.

[6bg6ga]

I thru caution to the wind yesterday and started it up. With the loose chain it ran sort of jerky but the concept was proven. Monday a different motor sprocket will arrive and things should work ok.

I worked kinda. I had so much chain slop that it was possible for the lead solenoid to trip again simply because the excess slack in the chain made crankshaft movement longer than normal. With the slack out it seems to run nearly flawless. Will know for sure today when the new sprocket comes. Not a jmorris setup but functional when done.

I cut a piece of paint stick to serve as my method to interrupt the light beam on the optical switch. I'm leaning toward a model airplane propeller of thinner construction to do the job. If I had a machine shop I would machine a spacer that would take the place of the one on the other side and it would have two cams on it. You sometimes have to use what you have on hand. While I don't like my paint stick it works and it serves as a reminder that fingers and chain don't mix well. That will be the next step a chain guard. Oh, how I miss not having a hand brake when I need one. Maybe a neighbor has several pieces of angle iron that I can clamp on some aluminum in order to bend it.

[jmorris]

Post a video if it running when your parts come in.

[6bg6ga]

Post a video if it running when your parts come in.

I will do so. You'll have to remember its not going to be up to jmorris standards so please judge me accordingly. I haven't ordered the airplane propeller to take the place of the shortened paint stick. Looking around the garage to see if I can find something more appropriate.

[6bg6ga]

The drive sprocket coming today is a 12 tooth instead of the 10 tooth I had on their which changes the ratio from 2.00-1 to 1.67-1 which decreases the torque from 480 in lbs or 40 ft lbs to 400 in lbs or 33.4 ft lbs. Granted only a maximum of 20 ft lbs is needed worst case to run the crankshaft. It was a matter of economics as I found a out of the box sprocket for $4.00 and some change instead of close to $20 for the 10 tooth I wanted. If I don't feel comfortable using it I will up the driven sprocket in teeth to obtain a 2.00-1 or 2.25-1 ratio. Worst case is the sprocket on the Mark IV will slip and no parts will break.

[jmorris]

I will do so. You'll have to remember its not going to be up to jmorris standards so please judge me accordingly. I haven't ordered the airplane propeller to take the place of the shortened paint stick. Looking around the garage to see if I can find something more appropriate.

To people that really know what they are doing, I’m a hack. Lots of folks just say I have too much time on my hands. If it works, that’s the only thing that matters.

Lots of my functional stuff isn’t even painted but I figure that beats something that looks pretty but doesn’t work, every time.

[6bg6ga]

No video yet but it worked with the exception that lagging everything down to the bench isn't a solution. My piece of wood that trips the optical sensor had to be made narrower which I knew was going to happen. I need a decent piece of steel to fasten the Mark IV and the motor to. I also need a method to provide constant tension to the motor bracket. This I had also considered as something I would have to do. Last but not least the solenoid kill switch which I had drawn into my wiring diagram that I need to add.

The piece of wood that trips the optical sensor while primitive worked 100% once I made it narrower. It wanted to trip the lead solenoid again because of chain slack problems. I had more than enough capability for speed control. I could make it crawl or run it very fast. As I mentioned before its not speed I'm after its consistency of operation and when I get it properly mounted and the chain tensioned so it won't loosen after 10 or 15 minutes operation I will be at my goal.

More updates after I get a piece of steel to play with.

[6bg6ga]

To people that really know what they are doing, I’m a hack. Lots of folks just say I have too much time on my hands. If it works, that’s the only thing that matters.

Lots of my functional stuff isn’t even painted but I figure that beats something that looks pretty but doesn’t work, every time.

I think your being modest. The people your talking about "That know what they are doing" will sit and scratch their heads and marvel at the simplicity of your designs. It takes real talent to make something function using the KISS principal. That is what separates the men from the boys.

I spent 20 years in a factory and respected tooling, dies, and fixtures that worked day after day without fault. Some were simple and they never faltered. The complex designs that could have been engineered less complicated never ran as well and you could never count on making it thru a run without having some type of problem.

[6bg6ga]

I made two video's on my cell phone but I don't know how to post them. It comes up with a message that they are too large or something along that line. I tried to send them to my email and finally got one to work and not the other. Would like to share the videos with those that are interested in this thread. One video shows operation without lead pour and the other video is of making 124gr round nose 9mm bullets with production rates up to 22 bullets a minute. I didn't want try to go faster even tho I know it will.

[jmorris]

Create a YouTube account, is the easiest way I know of then share the link.

[6bg6ga]

This is the first video with the solenoid disconnected. Video shows concept of operation. Working on loading the second video. If it doesn't take it I will shoot a new video sometime today and try to post it.

Mark IV is crudely lagged down to the bench as is the gear reduction motor. I got tired of trying to find a piece of scrap metal to bolt the units to. My intent was to bolt things down correctly but I simply had to run it to see how good it would operate. The second video when posted will show the capability of the machine to easily reach 24 bullets a minute with the ability to go faster but with common sense applied 24 seems to be as fast as I safely want to push it. It has reached my dream goal and that is the simple operation of making bullets without my shoulder aching for a week afterwards.
http://youtu.be/Ux4QXwF1mXk[/url]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ux4QXwF1mXk&feature=youtu.be

[dverna]

A few years ago, I saw a video of a guy (German IIRC) who had adapted a gear motor to a MasterCaster. He did a nice job and I always thought that would be the way to go. Much higher cost air cylinders but having no compressor would be advantageous. Wishing you luck on your design and watching with interest.

I am with you about Mr Morrris. Anyone calling him a hack is to be ignored. I worked in manufacturing and product development; and would have loved having him on our team.

[6bg6ga]

Mr. Morris is a genius or close to it. I'm of the impression that skill is needed to simplify the concept and operation. I spent 20 years on the factory floor and very seldom do you get to see real talent emerge. A lot of people when it comes down to it can make something but making it simple and easy is another story. I salute Mr. Morris for everything he has shared with this forum and especially the time he devotes to helping others when it would have been simpler to walk away. Having him tell me to continue I will get it was an immense help as it provided the motivation to make it work.

[jmorris]

Thank you, for the kind words.

Looks like you’ve got it figured out, if you look up on the tool bar above the words you type, on the right is the quote icon and right next to it is one that looks like 35mm film reel. Click on that one and it will bring up another tab, that says insert video clip. Paste the YouTube link there and hit OK and it will embed it in your post.

Like this.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ux4QXwF1mXk&feature=youtu.be

[jmorris]

I saw a video of a guy (German IIRC) who had adapted a gear motor to a MasterCaster.

That’s the way I went when I built my casting machine. The host I originally posted video on doesn’t exist anymore but I uploaded one to YouTube a few years back.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2U1ujg_nzo

[Plate plinker]

Great thread and I like the build. I have been contemplating build a new master caster that would use three or four molds. Seems that it would not be that difficult if one has the time and necessary tools.