30 Carbine or 30 Apache

[StrawHat]

Looking for input. I am considering building a new rifle for use on game up to coyote in size. A lightweight woods walking piece. Of the two cartridges mentioned in the title, which would you suggest?

Thank you.

Kevin

[Larry Gibson]

What action on the rifle?

[dangitgriff]

A levergun in .30 carbine would be neat!

[RU shooter]

I'd say 30 carbine brass and dies are easy to come by your other choice not so much what about the 300 BO? More punch than the carbine without all the case forming of the wildcat apache

[veeman]

30 carbine can be loaded down to and use brass for 32-20 in a NM Blackhawk, never heard of a 30 Apache. Marlin made a short lived levergun in 30 carbine, Model 62.

[StrawHat]

A levergun in .30 carbine would be neat!

Marlin did one. Not a big seller.

Kevin

[StrawHat]

I'd say 30 carbine brass and dies are easy to come by your other choice not so much what about the 300 BO? More punch than the carbine without all the case forming of the wildcat apache

The 30 Apache is a 30 caliber wildcat of the 223 or 5.56 cartridge. Full length.

Kevin

[StrawHat]

What action on the rifle?

Good question! I am considering a lightweight bolt action, Savage Walking Varminter or CZ 527.

Kevin

[dangitgriff]

The 30 Apache is a 30 caliber wildcat of the 223 or 5.56 cartridge. Full length.

Kevin

Fat bullets need love, too! .41 mag lever. [emoji6]
Henry also has a .327 Fed Mag in 16” & 20”.
2,000 fps with a 100-grain bullet.
Can’t go wrong with .312/.303 caliber.

[rintinglen]

Were it I, I would more likely go with the 32-20. In a single shot, say a .410 conversion gun, I would think that I was walking in high cotton.

[dverna]

Howa mini Mauser or the CZ in 7.62x39. Not sure if they make them in .300 BO but another good choice.

Building a custom rifle is neat but a waste of money.

[Hamish]

Looking for input. I am considering building a new rifle for use on game up to coyote in size. A lightweight woods walking piece. Of the two cartridges mentioned in the title, which would you suggest?

Thank you.

Kevin

300 Blackout is outstanding, honest 300 yard plinker/dog killer with cast. If you really want more case capacity, the 7.62x40 Wilson Tactical. Be a good bit easier and cheaper to do than the Apache. Shoot Bruce Drake a PM.

[Larry Gibson]

Good question! I am considering a lightweight bolt action, Savage Walking Varminter or CZ 527.

Kevin

With that action I would go with the Apache and use a 14" twist barrel at the fastest with a 16 " twist being considered.

[nagantguy]

I totally get the idea of a light walking around rifle- I’ve spent most my adult life trying and buying and modifying to come up with a great one- .300 Black out doesnit for me- love that I can go from 90-240 grain in the same light rifle for a host of game varmints or busting dirt clodds. I know it wasn’t one of your two choices between those two I’d go with the 300 blackout. Love my M1 carbines but just see it as to limiting in bullet weight- range and price of brass.

[popper]

BO or 40WT in an AR platform.

[Preacher Jim]

I built my 30x223 with a 17 twist spare I had for my 30br it shoots great 30 carbine is not one I would waste money building in a custom

[nun2kute]

I didn't want to go sub sonic so I weant with the 7.62x40 WT. So I think the Apache would be easy (as far as brass goes) to make. But unless you got a source for short fat bullets I think it might be too long for an AR magazine. You'd be limited to lighter bullets. But I think a bolt action like a CZ 527 would be awesome in 30 Apache. No experience with the 30 carbine. I think I've just about got myself talked out of wanting one since everyone who has one seems to think their made of Gold !

[StrawHat]

...Building a custom rifle is neat but a waste of money...

Unfortunately, factories do not make what I want so there is really no choice. I have built or payed someone to build, about a dozen rifles and several handguns that were not available from the big name makers.

Do you also feel wildcat cartridges are a waste of time and money?

Kevin

[charlie b]

I do not consider wildcats or custom work to be a waste if it accomplishes what you want. Heck, many rifle cartridges available today started as wildcats or owe their existence to them. And, yes, custom rifles fit in the same category.

I guess I would make the choice based on what I wanted to end up with. I would start with how accurate and what ranges I wanted to be able to shoot at. Is noise a concern (do you want subsonic performance). Jacketed or cast bullets.

Unless I was buying an M1 carbine I would not choose the cartridge designed for it. It is good but so many better choices for other platforms. If you are including that one I assume your ranges are short.

For coyotes the .223 is hard to beat. At same bolt size the 6x45 and .300BO are also easy choices. The BO would be a good choice for a lot of different bullet weights and still fit in a magazine.

I have not see a diagram of the Apache. From what I can tell it is just a necked up .223. This means the neck is even shorter.

If shooting cast I'd rather have the longer neck of the BO with the ability to shoot heavier bullets and be effective at subsonic velocities. If jacketed bullets and supersonic then I'd go with the .223 or 6x45.

Shooting cast at subsonic is a hoot and is far more accurate than I ever thought it would be. When casting for my .308 I 'save up' all my bullets that fail the final inspection (180gn). I load them up with a little bit of Blue Dot at a bit less than 1000fps. They have proven to be 1.5MOA or less at 200yds.

[Texas by God]

A .30 Apache in a Remington 700 would do what you want. So would the CZ 527 in 7.62x39; with the added advantage of dirt cheap blasting ammo. Nothing wrong with a .30 carbine for walking around but it is not as versatile as the other two- or three if you count the BO. I hope I helped.....

[JM7.7x58]

There used to be a tv show on MTV called “Pimp My Ride”. They would do over the top custom jobs on pintos and escorts! You could do something similar, with a common Plain Jane bolt action.

How about taking a Savage 340 in 30-30 and doing a full blown custom job. You could have the action blue printed, the bolt jeweled, fluted barrel, have a great stock made (walnut with stop you in your tracks figure), polished and blued (Weatherby style), install high end European glass (Swarovski, Leica, Zeiss).

I’m only half joking. This could really be a great rig. And many will agree that there are few 30 cal cartridges that have as nice a neck, for shooting cast, as the 30-30. Also a very efficient case capacity for shooting cast .30 cal bullets.

JM

[Larry Gibson]

As I mentioned before I'd go with the 30 Apache in either action for the 223 Cartridge as the mag and feeding should not be a problem. With the 14' barrel Jacketed bullets are readily available in appropriate bullet weights for reliable terminal performance. With cast bullets a lot of 30 cal bullets from 77 gr up through 170 gr would be quite usable.

I've killed numerous coyotes and 7 deer with the 30 carbine out of M1 Carbines with excellent terminal results. Using correct bullets, both cast and jacketed, is the key. I've a nice M70 XTR in .223 That I keep thinking I'll rebarrel to 30 Apache as it would be a very efficient "walk about" rifle cartridge …..if I ever get the 223 barrel shot out...…..

[fiberoptik]

As I mentioned before I'd go with the 30 Apache in either action for the 223 Cartridge as the mag and feeding should not be a problem. With the 14' barrel Jacketed bullets are readily available in appropriate bullet weights for reliable terminal performance....…..

What kind of performance dies a 14 Foot [emoji3097] barrel give???[emoji41][emoji41][emoji41]


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[popper]

Couple years ago I tried making 40WT from 223, wasn't very successful. Anneal first expand carefully to prevent split necks. Works but you are stretching the neck pretty thin. I could make 40WT ok by sizing, then cutting off the neck only, then expanding the shoulder left (still annealed). Apache would be tougher. IIRC, starline is making straight walled 223 cases now that you could use for 300 hamer, apache, etc with out much trouble.
My walking around 'rifle' is now a 10" BO pistol with 3x scope, 10 rnd mag. Light weight, easy to carry without getting in the way and good for any 110-185gr bullet with appropriate load. friend & I did 2moa @ 85-100 sighting the scope using the back of a 4wheeler as front bag. 150gr ~ 2k fps.
Thought about a BWT covert comp for it but would be too long to be legal. Does throw flash and noise forward.

[sundog]

300 Ham'r brass is readily available from Wilson Combat, Starline, and probably some of the etailers. I've made 7.62x40WT from LC 5.56, and while it came out good and functions well, it is very time consuming.

[popper]

Made 40WT by sizing first (BO die set right), then cutting off the remaining neck. Anneal then expand the shoulder left. Lee 243 spud first then BO. Then trim and neck size. Don't know where the 'shoulder' would be on the apache and if it needed to be reamed out.
40WT (optimized for 125gr bullets) gives IIRC 2 gr more powder, apache probably 3? Way more than the 16gr 2400 I use for 'walking around' light 30/30 load.

[dverna]

Unfortunately, factories do not make what I want so there is really no choice. I have built or payed someone to build, about a dozen rifles and several handguns that were not available from the big name makers.

Do you also feel wildcat cartridges are a waste of time and money?

Kevin

In general a resounding YES! But that is likely due to my limited needs and a fair degree of pragmatism. I have gone from having dozens of rifles to fill every possible niche I once imagined. In the end, I found I was mostly shooting .22's, .223/5.56, .308 and .38/.357's. I kept the .30/30's (in case AR's are banned) and a .300 WinMag, for specific reasons, but rid myself of the other stuff.

I need rifles to kill people if the SHTF (10-800 yards). I need rifles to hunt coyotes, deer and bear and possibly elk (15-400 yards). Squirrels and rabbits get the .22's. I need rifles to shoot for fun...which get the greatest amount of use.

I justified all sorts of other calibers in my younger years. Been there so I understand the attraction. In the end, I did not need them. I was lucky enough to never acquire a wildcat but came close to having a .280 AI made and also looked at the .30 Badger. Common sense kicked in.

I find it hard to believe you cannot find a commercial gun in a standard caliber that will not serve you well. Good luck!

Luckily, I am in the minority or the gun industry would collapse...LOL

[StrawHat]

In general a resounding YES! But that is likely due to my limited needs and a fair degree of pragmatism. I have gone from having dozens of rifles to fill every possible niche I once imagined. In the end, I found I was mostly shooting .22's, .223/5.56, .308 and .38/.357's. I kept the .30/30's (in case AR's are banned) and a .300 WinMag, for specific reasons, but rid myself of the other stuff.

I need rifles to kill people if the SHTF (10-800 yards). I need rifles to hunt coyotes, deer and bear and possibly elk (15-400 yards). Squirrels and rabbits get the .22's. I need rifles to shoot for fun...which get the greatest amount of use.

I justified all sorts of other calibers in my younger years. Been there so I understand the attraction. In the end, I did not need them. I was lucky enough to never acquire a wildcat but came close to having a .280 AI made and also looked at the .30 Badger. Common sense kicked in.

I find it hard to believe you cannot find a commercial gun in a standard caliber that will not serve you well. Good luck!

Luckily, I am in the minority or the gun industry would collapse...LOL

I understand what you are saying. You are correct, there is probably a factory rifle that would work. As a matter of fact, the CZ 527 and the Savage Varminter are both available in 223. I have heard the 223 is used on coyote so those are possibilities. I have a 22 Hornet that might work, (built on a Springfield 1922 action so heavier than I would like to carry.) Everything else I own is over 40 caliber, so a little big for a walking around piece.

When I was younger I enjoyed muzzle loaders. Unfortunately, I built most of mine because the replica industry did not then make a decent long rifle. That spoiled me as those rifle were built to my tastes. None were what you would call fancy but had nice wood and good sights. Those tastes carried over to cartridge firearms.

Kevin

[charlie b]

I like wildcats and will get a 6BR in the next year or two.

But, my .223 I would consider a perfect mid range coyote rifle, especially with heavier bullets. Get a faster twist barrel.

PS mid range is 300-600yd

[Larry Gibson]

What kind of performance dies a 14 Foot [emoji3097] barrel give???[emoji41][emoji41][emoji41]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yup, my bad...…..[smilie=l:

I wasn't referring to the length of the barrel but the twist …. referring to the 14" twist rate for the 30 Apache which will handle cast bullets then up through a 311041...….

[dverna]

I understand what you are saying. You are correct, there is probably a factory rifle that would work. As a matter of fact, the CZ 527 and the Savage Varminter are both available in 223. I have heard the 223 is used on coyote so those are possibilities. I have a 22 Hornet that might work, (built on a Springfield 1922 action so heavier than I would like to carry.) Everything else I own is over 40 caliber, so a little big for a walking around piece.

When I was younger I enjoyed muzzle loaders. Unfortunately, I built most of mine because the replica industry did not then make a decent long rifle. That spoiled me as those rifle were built to my tastes. None were what you would call fancy but had nice wood and good sights. Those tastes carried over to cartridge firearms.

Kevin

I truly like the CZ....you will not go wrong with it. I was all set to buy one when I found a Howa mini-Mauser for $350. Another decent choice for your needs. Trim little package too unless you put a huge scope on it.

[fastdadio]

There used to be a tv show on MTV called “Pimp My Ride”. They would do over the top custom jobs on pintos and escorts! You could do something similar, with a common Plain Jane bolt action.

How about taking a Savage 340 in 30-30 and doing a full blown custom job. You could have the action blue printed, the bolt jeweled, fluted barrel, have a great stock made (walnut with stop you in your tracks figure), polished and blued (Weatherby style), install high end European glass (Swarovski, Leica, Zeiss).

I’m only half joking. This could really be a great rig. And many will agree that there are few 30 cal cartridges that have as nice a neck, for shooting cast, as the 30-30. Also a very efficient case capacity for shooting cast .30 cal bullets.

JM

^^^This^^^ Close the thread.

[GARD72977]

Rarely does a factory rifle give me what I'm wanting. Most often the make a mess of the chamber and throat followed by a do it all fast twist. The older I get the less I want a factory rifle. I'm not the guy that buys a 357max so I can shoot 38/357/max. If I want a 38spl I will buy a 38spl

I say rebarrel it to exactly what you want and never look back.

[charlie b]

ROFLMAO

GARD, if you look at what you wrote and then your signature line it seems a bit contradictory :)

[GARD72977]

ROFLMAO

GARD, if you look at what you wrote and then your signature line it seems a bit contradictory :)
If you think that's funny dont get up off the floor yet. I bought a Ruger Precision in 308 when they first came out. I had it rebarrelled before I ever shot it. I knew I wouldn't be happy with it having a factory barrel. I ordered a Bartlein 5r barrel custom throated for 178 gr A max.
It shoots pretty good.

I bought a Ruger Precision in 223/556 with the intention of rebarrelling to 223 improved. I didn't rebarrel it because it out shoots my 308......

[rockrat]

I would go with the 30 apache with a 700 action. I use 300 BO dies to load mine, a single shot XR100. I rechambered a 300 BO barrel I had got from Northland Shooters(Remage nut). Fun to shoot.

[StrawHat]

...I would go with the 30 apache with a 700 action...

The 700 action is much bigger than I would consider for this project. I am looking at something like the CZ 527 or even the Savage Model 25 (the new one).

Kevin

[adcoch1]

30 apache all the way, and while I have a serious love affair with the cz527 I would probably use a Remington model 7 compact for the bolt gun. Let me explain why. Before I knew it was called 30 apache, I was messing around with this idea and made some dummy rounds. All of the bullets I could find to put in those cases either wouldn't, or would just barely fit but not feed in a cz527. I would want to shoot more than a 30 carbine bullet in an apache so a longer action would be needed for me. But any 300 blk bolt gun could be reamed to the apache, you just need to find a barrel with the twist you like.

[RU shooter]

A Rem 600/ Mohawk would also make a nice lightweight platform seems their easier to come by than a model 7 least in my neck of the woods

[charlie b]

Off topic :)


If you think that's funny dont get up off the floor yet. I bought a Ruger Precision in 308 when they first came out. I had it rebarrelled before I ever shot it. I knew I wouldn't be happy with it having a factory barrel. I ordered a Bartlein 5r barrel custom throated for 178 gr A max.
It shoots pretty good.

I bought a Ruger Precision in 223/556 with the intention of rebarrelling to 223 improved. I didn't rebarrel it because it out shoots my 308......

Not laughing too much :)

I bought a cheap Axis in .223 a couple years ago just to try out rifle shooting again. I figured if it shot badly a new barrel would not cost much.

After a couple hundred rounds it was a 1/2MOA rifle (and that's probably because I can't shoot any better right now :) ).

But, my 12 in .308 will get a Bartlein barrel in the near future, but probably in 6BR or something similar.

[kens]

I also looked into the lightweight walking/hiking gun.
I weighed mausers cut down, Ruger Mini30/14. M1 Carbine.
The M1 Carbine was the lightest. I ended up with a clone maker M1, with a clone Paratrooper folding stock with a sling.
The only thing smaller/lighter would be a cut down .22

[StrawHat]

30 apache all the way, and while I have a serious love affair with the cz527 I would probably use a Remington model 7 compact for the bolt gun. Let me explain why. Before I knew it was called 30 apache, I was messing around with this idea and made some dummy rounds. All of the bullets I could find to put in those cases either wouldn't, or would just barely fit but not feed in a cz527. I would want to shoot more than a 30 carbine bullet in an apache so a longer action would be needed for me. But any 300 blk bolt gun could be reamed to the apache, you just need to find a barrel with the twist you like.

Thank you. While I was only thinking about boolits up to 135 grains, I had never considered the magazine length. I need to consider that more carefully.

Kevin

[fcvan]

Wow, I thought at least someone might mention the Sharps 25-45. 87 grain factory loads that mimic the old Savage 250-3000 from way back. 223 brass necked to 257 with factory loads ranging from 75 to 100 grains. I watched some Texas hog hunting with the 25-45 and hogs piled up DRT with authority. The rifles were an AR 15 variant but I imagine the Mini 14 won't be far behind. Of course, Ruger did do the Mini 30 in 7.62x39 and much later in 300 BO.

I have built several ARs in 300 BO but my running favorite is still an AR 15 in 9MM, as my typical 125 RN over 5 grains of Unique gives roughly 1100 FPS from my pistols, it does 1350 from the 16" barrel, 357 type performance. So many choices, hard to argue any one gun is 'best' rather personal preference. I kind of like my Mossberg Scout Rifle, 308 WIN, takes AR 10 or M1A mags. Mine sports a long eye relief 2X fixed scope and my NOE 309-150 Spitzer PCd gives me 2450 FPS from the 16" Barrel. Light, handy, powerful, versatile. Wait, I think I have other dandies in the safe . . . hard choices, argh!