Rossi 92 in 44-40 lsome basic questions

[dekker01]

Goodmorning to you all,

I haven't been on the forum much since I only was loading for my original Danish rolling block, but I do have some questions now.

Living in Europe does have some advantages, but for guns, it's not the best place to be. So I ordered a Rossi m65 20"(or 92 as it is called in the US) in 44-40 and I will receive it in about 8 months...
The gun will be used against "dangerous paper targets" at 50 meters (~55 yards?) up to 100 meters. I know the gun is decently strong (as far as lever actions go).
I will shoot both smokeless (I guess unique) and real black powder with it (no subs, as that doesn't make sens as it's is more expensive then both smokeless or real black).
Most likely I will stick with a Lee 6 cavity 200 grain rnfp mold (molds are expensive over here and most shops in the US don't ship outside the US, not sure why though) I have been eyebowling the accurate 6 cavity mold with 2 designs, but that would go up in price to approximate 180,- USD with shipping and taxes... same goes for the spring kits (I like the stuff that Steve Guns sells for the Rossi, but they are made from Unobtanium if you live outside the US :-(
I do powder coat, my own cast, boolits for the main reason to avoid touching lead as much as possible and to avoid tacky smokeless..
So my questions are:
-As I PC all the boolits, would a felt grease wad (tallow) be sufficient for BP to keep the fouling soft?
-Do I need to size the brass if I only use it in one riffle? (I will purchase the Lee 44-40 die set)
-I want to use the powder through expander die with my Lee auto drum, will it expand enough for fat lead at .429 or .430? Or can I modify the expander part of it with a 44 mag?
-Is the factory crimp die worth the additional 25,-?

Thanks already and please bear with me for my bad English.

[Cast_outlaw]

On the dies the crimp is worth it as tube mags tend to want to push your boolit in Deeper. Your barrel is probably a .430 44mag barrel but you should slug it to be sure. The model 92 is a group 2 strong action so it can withstand higher pressure loads witch are listed in the Lyman book have fun and straight shooting

[Texas by God]

I use standard Lee dies and size my 200gr rnfp bullets to .429”. I have used PC as well as Lee lube. I use a upper mid range charge of Unique. My barrel is a Green Mountain stub on an H&R single shot. I would recommend getting the Rossi in hand first, then tailor your ammo to fit. Please don’t load a large batch only to find they won’t chamber( don’t ask how I know this). I hope your Rossi is a good one from the start. I’ve had a few and they all needed action work to make them proper. The 62 SRC Puma 44-40 was a gem- once I got the bugs worked out. The CAS shooter that sold it to me HAD to have it back( and payed accordingly)- so its gone and I miss it.

[pietro]

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Your English is just fine - Welcome to the board ! :drinks:

As posted earlier, you should slug the bore (pure lead fishing sinker) to be sure, as .44 Mag uses .429" boolits & Rossi AFAIK uses the .429" .44 mag barrel for their .44-40's.

If you ever buy commercial .44-40 loads, the best accuracy isn't a given, which means some testing might be indicated. (YMMV)

Depending on how your rifle's .44-40 fired brass measures, you may be able to get away without re-sizing, but I'd size them if the rifle were mine.

Definitely crimp the loaded rounds, fo the reason stated above.

Please let us know how you make out...….. :)


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[Savvy Jack]

So my questions are:
-As I PC all the boolits, would a felt grease wad (tallow) be sufficient for BP to keep the fouling soft?
I kind of doubt it as a guess but never tried it



-Do I need to size the brass if I only use it in one riffle? (I will purchase the Lee 44-40 die set)
There is no need to resize brass with full black powder loads where the bullet sits on top of the powder.



-I want to use the powder through expander die with my Lee auto drum, will it expand enough for fat lead at .429 or .430? Or can I modify the expander part of it with a 44 mag?
The Lee should work with the .429 but use caution and make sure you have a good case mouth bellow for the bullet to get started. The .430 will still work but same thing, forcing a too large of a bullet in a Lee resized case could bulge the case neck cause chambering issues, crushed case mouths/necks etc. To help prevent this, you might consider a 44-40 Lyman "M" die for .427-.428 bullets and a Lyman 44 Mag "M" die for .429-.430 bullets.

If you are going to use .429-.430 exclusively....the RCBS "Cowboy" dies are cut for those diameters. The Lee's are more cut for the smaller diameters.



-Is the factory crimp die worth the additional 25,-?
Yes, HOWEVER if using 44-40 bullets like the Lyman 427098, Accurate's 43-215C with the typical 44-40 curved O'give...the Redding Profile Crimp die is superior.




Thanks already and please bear with me for my bad English.
My English is 20 times worse than yours and I am an American...lol

Seriously, your English is perfect!!

Here is some information that might help
https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester/handloading

https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester/handloading/crumpled-cases

https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester/handloading/redding-profile-crimp-die
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[john.k]

You should not have any problem having moulds posted......gun parts are a different ball game.....Anyhoo,Id be sure to get the rifle before spending on moulds,some 44/40 chamber s have very tight necks,and wont take oversize bullets ,even if the bore is a bit larger.....i recommend a Lee 2 cavity for starters,small spend to get the gun shooting.....A mould from the US by say DHL takes no more than a few days to arrive,always assuming your Customs dont hold it up.......DHL seem to have arrangements to bypass customs in most countries,so that cuts possible delays...(I have no connection to DHL)

[warren5421]

I use an early Rossi Short Rifle in .44-40. I have shot SASS for 20+ years using Black powder. The only bullet I use in my .44-40 Colts and Uberti, Rossi and USFA rifles is the Mav Dutchman 44 Cal 200 grain big lube. Molds can be gotten from Dick Dastardly BIG LUBE®, LLC - BLACK POWDER SHOOTING SUPPLIES http://www.biglube.com/Default.aspx The bullet carries enough lube to keep the residue in the barrel soft. You might give Springield Slim, master caster of Big Lube bullets for sale http://www.whyteleatherworks.com a call to talk about black powder shooting, he knows much more about black powder than most anyone you can talk to.

PeeWee SASS 15785

[djryan13]

I second the Redding profile crimp die. 44-40 is a tough cartridge to get right. Expect some swearing in the reloading room.

I have a Rossi too. Reload both BP and smokeless. Since the Rossi could handle more, I made some Rossi specific loads with IMR 4227 if my memory serves me. Been a few years.

44-40 shines in BP though. So much cleaner than 45 colt. I won’t even run colt in BP anymore.

[KCcactus]

The Steves Gunz dvd says the extractor spring he sells is a 410 English spring cut about 1/4 inch from the end of the extractor. He says he gets them from Brownells, 4 inches long and cuts them. Hopefully, you can find a European source. The stock extractor springs in both my M92's threw the brass way too high. They are much better with the new springs. I thinned the loading gate springs on both, but didn't touch any other springs.

[Speedo66]

Rossi's tend to throw empties very far due to an overly strong ejector spring. .44-40 cases are too dear to lose. This same spring also affects the action, making working it harder than it should be.

Assuming the action parts in the .44-40 are the same as in my .357 Rossi, an inexpensive fix is a Century C-530 spring, available on Ebay and Amazon for about $6 USD for a pack of 6. It is a direct ejector spring replacement, drops empties at your feet, and lightens the action. Should be no problem obtaining as it is not a "gun" part.

Several Youtube videos will help in disassembly/reassembly.

Hope you'll enjoy your Rossi as much as I do!

[KCSO]

The Lee bullet really doesn't hold enough lube for black and for black I have much better luck with the rcbs bullet with the wide deep groove. Suprisingly in my old N/A 44-40 I get really good accuracy with 7 grains of Trail Boss. This still doesn't come to the base of the bullet and shows no pressure signs in my gun.

[dekker01]

Thanks for all the helpfull information! Also for the pm's.

I will see if I can find the springs locally or on ebay.

It is difficult (for me) to wait for the Rossi to arrive and not make use of the time to cast boolits. I guess I am just impatient, although that could mean that I waist money on the wrong mould.

Ps. I have seen Savvy_jack on several forums with information (I read just about every thing that can find) and usefull discussions with a person called w44wcf. I bookmarked most of them. If that savvy_jack is you then Thanks for disclosing all that information on the 44-40.

[Outpost75]

w44wcf was the late John Kort.

He is no longer with us, but Savvy Jack has archived most of his writings on the .44-40 on his web site, https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester/ which is a great source of information.

[dekker01]

Ok, I couldn't wait any longer and ordered a five cavity mould from arsenalmolds. It's a 432-180 rf (thats coww weight, I will use pure lead with 5% pewter) with a large lube grove. I asked to size the diameter down to 429. It will be for paper targets at 50 meters with either black or smokeless powder. I reckon I can safely load the category 2 loads as listed for 205 grain lead bullits in lyman's reloading guide?
Probably 8 or 9 grains, depending on the accuracy.

What are your thoughts?

[Outpost75]

That should work fine. You may find that .430 bullets give better accuracy if your chamber has sufficient neck-release clearance for them. My Rossi prefers "fat" bullets.

[Savvy Jack]

Thanks for all the helpfull information! Also for the pm's.

I will see if I can find the springs locally or on ebay.

It is difficult (for me) to wait for the Rossi to arrive and not make use of the time to cast boolits. I guess I am just impatient, although that could mean that I waist money on the wrong mould.

Ps. I have seen Savvy_jack on several forums with information (I read just about every thing that can find) and usefull discussions with a person called w44wcf. I bookmarked most of them. If that savvy_jack is you then Thanks for disclosing all that information on the 44-40.

That would be me!!

Welcome to the wonderful world of 1,001 ways to load a 44-40 ;-)

[dekker01]

That would be me!!

Welcome to the wonderful world of 1,001 ways to load a 44-40 ;-)

Well, then I bookmarked quit a lot of your information! ;-)
I guess I just have to give you a virtual beer for that!

Ps. the mold: http://arsenalmolds.com/products?product_id=130&sort=pd.name&order=ASC

[Savvy Jack]

Well, then I bookmarked quit a lot of your information! ;-)
I guess I just have to give you a virtual beer for that!

Ps. the mold: http://arsenalmolds.com/products?product_id=130&sort=pd.name&order=ASC

lol, Thanks!!

Listen to Outpost and the Late John Kort, aka W44WCF/30WCF and you can't go wrong!!

Me...I can destroy an anvil with a wood mallet!!

[dekker01]

That should work fine. You may find that .430 bullets give better accuracy if your chamber has sufficient neck-release clearance for them. My Rossi prefers "fat" bullets.

I thought about .430, but as I don't have the rifle for an other 6 months, I had to take a bit of a gamble. If I recall correctly, pure lead drops somewhat larger from the mold the wheel weights. I would hate it if they wouldn't chamber (although the rossi's appear quite larger).

[Outpost75]

I thought about .430, but as I don't have the rifle for an other 6 months, I had to take a bit of a gamble. If I recall correctly, pure lead drops somewhat larger from the mold the wheel weights. I would hate it if they wouldn't chamber (although the rossi's appear quite larger).

My Rossi has a large enough chamber neck to accept .431" diameter bullets loaded in Starline brass or .432" in Winchester brass. My 1905 Colt SA accepts .430 and shoots well, as does my 1920 Colt New Service. Pure lead casts smaller in diameter than wheelweights. An alloy similar to 1:20 tin lead, like your pewter mix, should cast about 0.001" larger than wheelweights which do not have any additional tin added.

[robg]

used pistol primers not rifle .fun cartridge to load for if youre gentle with the cases.

[BCRider]

Dekker, I've been loading a fair bit of .44-40 over the last couple of years. Most of it in black powder or more recently in one of the substitutes called Jim Shockey's Yukon Gold.

With proper black the stock grooves on the smokeless bullets I've been buying were simply no where near juicy enough. So it's a good thing you're getting a big lube groove mold. In my case the fouling packed in so badly that the rounds could not even hit the big cowboy action targets ( about 40cm square) with any accuracy by the end of 60 rounds. Mind you I didn't try casting my own and using a proper black powder lube like many here are doing. The Yukon Gold I'm using now is a lot more tolerant.... Either way though big fat lube grooves with proper black is a good thing.

The two Italian replica rifles and Miroku 1873 Winchester I've got are all set up for the .427" size bullets. I don't know anyone here with a Rossi in .44-40 so I can't check with them for you about size. Sorry.

On reloading I read a lot about how the .44-40 cases were so fragile. But frankly I have not really found it to be an issue. I'm reloading with Lee dies in a Dillon 550b. And I suspect part of why I don't have an issue is that the four die stations lets me get away with seating on one die and crimping with a second die where a three position progressive requires seating and crimping in one position. Of course if you are loading on a single stage then you can set the die to seat and then do a second pass where you set it to crimp. I also suspect that a reason I get along so well with these supposedly "fragile" casings is that I lube the cases before I resize and decap them. Not much mind you. I lay out a cookie sheet worth of cases on their sides and give the tray a light 2 second spray of an aerosol can of casing lube. It only hits one side but as the cases are handled and go through the sizing die the lube spreads around and it only takes a very little bit to let them glide in and out with very little force. And that may be another reason I don't have any problem. Some say that the carbide rings in the sizing dies don't need lube. And that is very true. But that doesn't mean that the casings themselves don't need lube. And if a light hint of lube like this lets the brass move through the die with very little resistance then that might be part of why I don't have issues with cases that collapse on me.

On the idea of not sizing the cases I'd be a bit worried that the rebound after the recoil could see bullets slide out of the mouth of the casing if there is no neck tension at all. And I know that fired cases on my guns let the bullets literally fall into the case and back out. So sizing is a must for me.

My other cowboy action rifle is a Rossi in .357Mag. Even having the nice Uberti and Winchester replicas that Rossi is still one of my favorites. Work on finding options for the springs and you'll love it too. I got my Rossi about 12 years ago now. I do a bit of home gunsmithing and I slicked mine up so it runs better than me. I've also slicked up a few more over the years.

The most recent two I did for close friends were already doctored up in all the most important spots. So really the only things you need to find to slick the gun up and make it run like a champ is the three main springs and to remove and smooth the back side of the extractor spring. There are some really good videos on disassembly and reassembly on You Tube to follow. And while it's apart the first time you can remove any burrs on the bolt and locking bars and other parts and measure the springs. The two you really want to change are the ejector spring and the main spring. They are both WAY too strong and fight you badly when cycling the lever. The spring kits also come with a lighter spring for the snap pin in the lever. But unless you get into competitive speed shooting with the rifle you don't need to change that one. The big two improvements though are the main and ejector springs.

On the extractor the back side (lower hidden side when seen on the bolt) on all the rifles I've worked on is quite roughly shaped with side to side machining marks. This is a spring that snaps and having crossways roughness on the side under tension is never a good thing. Removing enough to erase that cross pattern will do a lot to ensure that the extractor never fatigues and cracks on you. While you're at it make sure it isn't curved and rubs hard on the sides of the slot in the bolt.

Two big fails I've seen on the half dozen Rossis I've worked on are my own rear sight that was badly crooked and needed the spring to be twisted back flat. And on a friend's 92 a very badly misshapen loading gate that is causing him a lot of issues during loading and shooting where it lets the round kick over to the side and jam. The other 4 were all just lovely overall other than the slicking up steps I had to do on the earlier three rifles.

[Savvy Jack]

The two Italian replica rifles and Miroku 1873 Winchester I've got are all set up for the .427" size bullets.

On reloading I read a lot about how the .44-40 cases were so fragile. But frankly I have not really found it to be an issue. I'm reloading with Lee dies in a Dillon 550b. And I suspect part of why I don't have an issue is that the four die stations lets me get away with seating on one die and crimping with a second die where a three position progressive requires seating and crimping in one position. Of course if you are loading on a single stage then you can set the die to seat and then do a second pass where you set it to crimp. I also suspect that a reason I get along so well with these supposedly "fragile" casings is that I lube the cases before I resize and decap them. Not much mind you. I lay out a cookie sheet worth of cases on their sides and give the tray a light 2 second spray of an aerosol can of casing lube. It only hits one side but as the cases are handled and go through the sizing die the lube spreads around and it only takes a very little bit to let them glide in and out with very little force. And that may be another reason I don't have any problem. Some say that the carbide rings in the sizing dies don't need lube. And that is very true. But that doesn't mean that the casings themselves don't need lube. And if a light hint of lube like this lets the brass move through the die with very little resistance then that might be part of why I don't have issues with cases that collapse on me.

On the idea of not sizing the cases I'd be a bit worried that the rebound after the recoil could see bullets slide out of the mouth of the casing if there is no neck tension at all. And I know that fired cases on my guns let the bullets literally fall into the case and back out. So sizing is a must for me.

BCRider,

Great reply and thanks for sharing.

One reason folks may not have any issues with case crumpling is because they are using .427 bullets. Folks typically crunch a case when trying to cram a .430 bullet into a case that has been sized for .427 bullets and or without properly bellowing the case mouth. Another reason is that when they seat a bullet with a deep crimp groove, the bullet is seated too deep and the case mouth hits the top of the groove flange and has nowhere to go but crumple before the crimp is completed. https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester/handloading/crumpled-cases

Neck retention/good crimping is important when loading .427 bullets but when loading .429/.430 bullets from a .429 chamber, it's not that bad. Resizing efficiency depends on the chamber dimensions combined with the bullet diameter used. https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester/handloading/redding-profile-crimp-die

When seating/crimping in the same step, it is important to set the seating depth for the longest case length one will be loading. If it is set for the shortest case, when the longest case is loaded, folks are going to have problems.

Over working they brass decreases case life so it can be important to "resize" to match the chamber dimensions. If a rifle has a tad larger chamber and .429 bore, full resizing with tight dies and only using .427 bullets is way over working the brass. At one time I had a rifle with an over sized chamber and had to cut down a 44 magnum resizing die so it would only resize the neck...of coarse they would not fit in tighter revolver chambers.

It can get complicated sometimes.

[dekker01]

Thanks for all the helpfull information everybody! Much appriciated.

[garandsrus]

Here’s a mold maker in Europe who turns out very nice molds at a good price. It may save you some import hassles also. https://www.mp-molds.com/

[dekker01]

I just received the mould from arsenalmolds, it was very well packaged. I am looking forward to use it!
It is the 432-180 rf sized to 429 (as i requested).

[rondog]

I'd just like to know how you "ordered" a new Rossi in .44-40? I thought they weren't making anything in .44-40, and I've sure never heard you could "order" a rifle from them - what am I missing here?

[dekker01]

https://www.frankonia.de/rossi/shop.html

As I live in europe, there are some hoops I have to jump through, but ordering is not a problem. Just 8 months waiting for delivery.

[Walks]

I hear about .44-40 cases getting crushed all the time.
The other Cowboy Shooters at My old club complained about it all the time.

I consider myself Very Very Fortunate to have a set of early Lyman All-American dies from the 1960's. The sizer reduces the case enough too chamber in My old 1923 Colt and the M-Die expands the case mouth/body just enough to let a .428dia #42798 bullet fit easily, yet grip the case well enough to crimp & hold a .428 bullet in place.
Never had a bullet pushed back into the case when using those dies.
I tried a Lee FCD die. It worked okay, but I started getting neck & mouth splits after just two loadings.

Have tried the Lee #429-200-RF, worked fine for me. As did the 2 RCBS 200CM & 210RF molds.
Never got around to the Lyman Cowboy mold. Will someday maybe

Oh, I have a 1892SRC in .44WCF, and A Rossi 92 copy Oct bbl 24" Rifle.
My Rossi Rifle and 2 UBERTI 1873 copies are all close to 25yrs old or even past 30yrs.

I think Rossi did a better job on My 92 then the .44Mag, .357Mag, and .45Colt that most Cowboy Shooters chose.

Maybe it depends on the Wholesaler/ Distributor. Mine was EMF

[Savvy Jack]

I hear about .44-40 cases getting crushed all the time.
The other Cowboy Shooters at My old club complained about it all the time.
That's because those guy try to cram a .430 bullet into a case sized for .429 without a proper bellow or trying to load handload fast
https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester/handloading/crumpled-cases


I consider myself Very Very Fortunate to have a set of early Lyman All-American dies from the 1960's. The sizer reduces the case enough too chamber in My old 1923 Colt and the M-Die expands the case mouth/body just enough to let a .428dia #42798 bullet fit easily, yet grip the case well enough to crimp & hold a .428 bullet in place.
Never had a bullet pushed back into the case when using those dies.
BINGO, I have been preaching that for a few years now. For .426/.427 bullets, use the Lee dies. For .428/.429 bullets, use the RCBS "Cowboy" dies.
Use the 44-40 "M" die as you stated but if using .430's, use the 44 Magnum "M" expander plug.
https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester/handloading/redding-profile-crimp-die


I tried a Lee FCD die. It worked okay, but I started getting neck & mouth splits after just two loadings.
The 44-40 LFCD is designed to crimp a .427 bullet. Using this die on .429 and especially .430 bullets, it fully crimps BEFORE the collets fully close allowing a small portion of the case mouth to squeeze in between the collets causing a "bump" and has been the weak area on cases that have split for me. Even when used on smaller diameter bullets, a harsh crimp leaves a "crease" in the case mouth also weakening the case mouth to allow splits.
https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester/handloading/redding-profile-crimp-die


Have tried the Lee #429-200-RF, worked fine for me. As did the 2 RCBS 200CM & 210RF molds.
Never got around to the Lyman Cowboy mold. Will someday maybe
The most popular 200gr 44-40 hard cast bullet is commercially made and sold by many "dealers". The commercial mold is the Magma from Magma Engineering. Popular manufactures are Oregon Trail's Laser Cast, Hunter's Supply and most of Midway USA's are from a "Magma" mold.
https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester/bullet-molds
https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester/bullet-molds/modern-bullet-molds

Several hard core 44-40 shooters have sent in designs to Accurate Mold and are great cast bullets. By far the absolute best for black powder is John Kort's 43-215C


https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester/handloading

[pietro]

I like the stuff that Steve Guns sells for the Rossi, but they are made from Unobtanium if you live outside the US :-(





Steve offers a DVD on slicking up a Rossi, for those folks who can & will do it themselves.

I would suggest you contact Steve, as he might be able to ship the DVD to you (especially if you offer to pay for the shipping).

Alternately, there might be somebody on the forum who's purchased the DVD from Steve, and be willing to burn a copy to send you.

IDK if his DVD is available as a download.



.

[djryan13]

When did Rossi stop selling 44-40? I bought one just a few years ago.

[44WCFKID]

As others have stated, the chamber is the deal breaker. My Uberti rifles slug .429 bore, .430 groove. they wont chamber though so I use .428 cast lead, I can hit 100 yard turkey steel plates off hand with full case black powder loads, so I'd say accuracy is fine withe .428's. In thousands of rounds I've only crushed 3-4 cases using either Lee single stage or a Dillon Square Deal. The crimp has to be Just right or it will bulge the case. Approach it conservatively and you'll be fine. I've heard the Lee Factory Crimp die on the 44WCF works great but I've never needed to change.

[Savvy Jack]

As others have stated, the chamber is the deal breaker. My Uberti rifles slug .429 bore, .430 groove. they wont chamber though so I use .428 cast lead, I can hit 100 yard turkey steel plates off hand with full case black powder loads, so I'd say accuracy is fine withe .428's. In thousands of rounds I've only crushed 3-4 cases using either Lee single stage or a Dillon Square Deal. The crimp has to be Just right or it will bulge the case. Approach it conservatively and you'll be fine. I've heard the Lee Factory Crimp die on the 44WCF works great but I've never needed to change.

As most of us know but sometimes forget, if tight chambers, one must use thin winchester brass if trying to use large diameter bullets, remington brass is thickest and works best with small diameter bullets. Starline brass in the middle for thickness. Also when roll crimping, sometimes the brass getrs a slight bulge below the roll and this can be solved by using a Redding Profile die if ussing 44-40 profile bullets.

[Outpost75]

Another solution for .44-40 rifles having tight chamber necks, but a large groove diameter is the Accurate 43-200QL helled bullet. This has an oversized stop ring above the crimp groove which can be sized to fit the chamber throat or barrel groove diameter, but the driving bands are .428" and are unaffected by sizing. The QL version has a larger lube groove for BP use, whereas the regular Q has a smaller lube groove for cowboy smokeless powder application. VERY accurate bullet in the Microgroove Marlin.

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