444 and 30-30 Round Ball loads

[1Shirt]

The Complete Reloading Guide by Traister's lists a 3 ball 444 load with a starting charge of 31gr. H4198, a stiff cardboard wad tight on powder and "slight crimp"a on the mouth. Suggests that this load shoots the three in a respectable 3 ball group at 30-35 yds. Seems to me that that is a goodly quantity along with 3 balls in a 444 case, but haven't tried it for vol. Have always used Unique for round ball loads in 45-70 and 30-30. Was wondering if anybody has tried this H4198 w/3 balls in 444, and if so what the results were.

Second thought is probably way off base, but will be dumb enough to ask it based on the old yankee saying that "ain't no dumb questions if ya don't know something, but there are usually a bunch of dumb answers". So here goes:
Has anybody ever tried to load two round balls in a 30-30 with its long neck, and if so what was the powder/weight, etc. It looks to me like the neck would be long enough to hold a .310 ball within the neck with one on top of it crimped in. Don't know why this would not work as long as you insured that the bottom ball did not get into the case but stayed in the neck. Well, I suppose I will get flamed pretty well on this one, but being an old yankee, will take what I get.

As always, thanks in advance to those who respond to this thread.
1Shirt :coffee:

[versifier]

1Shirt, It is workable if you are sure that the second ball actually stays in the neck. There is enough room. A friend experimented with 2ball loads a few years ago for .30-30 & .303Brit using IMR 3031, but he has moved and I cannot contact him for his load info. You have to have a powder that fills the case enough to insure that the ball can't slip down out of the neck. A slightly compressed load of 3031 did the trick IIRC, with the top ball carefully crimped at the point of greatest circumference.

[Blackwater]

I'm just flat out guessing here but ... one theory about bulged barrels being caused by using filler is that they are caused by the dacron (IF it's too small and shifts back and forth in the case) being "shot" forward by the initial powder burn, and when it hits the base of the bullet, the bullets acts like a barrel obstruction and thus there's a pressure spike, which CAN sometimes cause a bulged barrel. Now, if THAT's so, and with dacron's being so soft and light, I'd be very leary of that rearward ball or balls doing something similar. Therefore, I'd only use multiple ball loads IF the powder was either lightly compressed or at least 100% filled the powder space under the bottom ball.

Like I said, that's only a total guess, but .... strange things happen sometimes, and nice things like .444 or .30/30 rifles are neat, and running the risk of damaging or destroying one isn't something I'd be willing to do, personally, not to mention the fact that I've finally recognized the fact that I'm mortal, and that pain isn't our friend.

I'd investigate this thoroughly before trying it, but sounds like that .444 3-ball load may well use that much powder BECAUSE it'll fill the space fully under that bottom ball. That's a guess too, but .... you might want to do a dry run and see if that's the case.

I just can't see anything heavy and loose between the powder and topmost "bullet" being something that's good for the gun or shooter. Hope someone else can chime in who actually knows???

[StarMetal]

Here's a fix for the straight cases like the 444 you speak of. You need a canneluring tool. You cannelure the case in the proper spot so three balls will just fit into the case and crimp. This possibly might void the case to loading with a normal bullet, so I would just have these special cases set aside for round ball loads.

Next you'll ask who sells these cannelure tools. I've seen them, but can't remember, so I'll take a shot and say Dillion.

Joe

[StarMetal]

Now that I've been thinking alittle a copper tubing cutter with the cutter dulled some or the edge rounded alittle, would work to impress a cannelure on a straigh walled case.

Joe

[Bullshop]

Joe
I'll tell you how I improvise for the canelur tool. Lets say you want to load the 444 case right. So you would use a Lee factory crimp die for any 44 cal. Make a spacer from say a 45/70 case that the 444 will slide through up to the rim. Now with the die set in the press to crimp/canelur the ammount you want slip the 444 case with spacer in from the top until the spacer bottoms out to locate the crimp/canelur. Hold in place and raise the press ram. Thats it a perfect crimp anywhere you want on the 444 case. This will act as the stop or depth gauge if you will for the balls to stop at. Be carefull adjusting the die you can realy put the squeze on a case. I often use this as a case sizing system. Its quick and easy and requires no lube. Same basic idea but with boolit instead of balls. I like to load for my 38/55 this way, just put in the crimp /canelur and slip in the boolit. This way you can hand seat a fat boolit in what is basicly a fired case neck. Works great!
BIC/BS

[felix]

BS, this technique has been done for years on the BR circuit. The cases are neck turned to fit a chamber that is a .244 or less for the .224 boolit. The brass is thin enough to let a boolit slide in to where the turning tool stopped. There will be a donut edge right at that spot after the case is fired once. ... felix

[Newtire]

Hey 1Shirt,
As far as the .444 goes, I did that 3-ball load and did it like this. Using 30-Grains H-335 (NOT 4198). First, press a ball down onto the powder, then used an Ox-Yoke .44 black powder revolver wad, then another ball pressed onto that, another revolver wad, and finally, a ball crimped into place. There's no room for anything to move around in this load.
I tried another load that turned out cousing me my only sticky cases I ever ran into in my Marlin .444. It was a load using shot in a .410 wad with a ball on top of that, this all being pushed out the barrel by 10-12 gr. Unique. Made a kind of flat sounding bang & cases stuck. Maybe wad moving forward and running into ball...don't know really but know that this must have made some real high pressures and wouldn't recommend it to anyone. The three ball load worked real good, just kicked a whole lot, not an all day plinker for sure.

[1Shirt]

Well as always on this forum, many words of wisdom. Will try recommendations and when I have decent enough weather to try them, will report my results. Versifier, wonder what kind of vol. he got out of that 3031 load. Guess I will find out. Thanks guys!
1Shirt

[StarMetal]

They don't strip the grooves in cap and ball handguns, why would they here as long as you kept the velocity reasonable? Would depend too how big or small the ball diameter is to the groove diameter.

Joe

[versifier]

1Shirt, He never chronographed the loads, just wanted a "home protection" load for each of his rifles. The .30-30's had an inch spread at 30' and as he said it kicked like a mule out of his Win94 I was not tempted to try it. I was simply curious as I am about most things gun related and have a great memory for trivia and asked him how he did it. He probably told me the charge weights at the time, but as that doesn't come under "trivia" I promptly forgot it. I suspect that they were moving fast enough to strip in the rifling, but as he was trying to turn the rifles into glorified shotguns it was probably a good thing to open up the "group" a bit.

[1Shirt]

Versifier, Didn't have any 3031 on hand so I used 4064 to a bit above the base of the neck which creates a compressed powder. I bet these will kick a bit, and plan to put them out of a 94. Loaded 5 of them, one may be all I want to try. I used .310 Hor. RB, coated with Lee liquid alox. Individual ball was 35 gr. so two are 70 gr. Am thinking vol ought to be well above 3000, and will probably have to clean lead after that first, and possibly only shot. I believe in a side by side 20gage, cyl/cyl and one ounce of 7 1/2. Thanks for the update.
Paul

[versifier]

1Shirt,
FWIW, I have yet to find an application where 3031 works and 4064 doesn't. Pretty much academic here anyway. I think I'd pad that metal buttplate with a slip-on pad, or a small pillow. Afterwards, you might be wishing they made a Lewis tool for rifles. :roll: Maybe a brass hippie screen on a cylindrical jag would save you some solvent time. I've really never fouled a rifle with lead that badly. My friend never mentioned cleaning, now I wonder if he was too embarassed about how bad it was to say anything. That would be like him. What did the charge of 4064 end up weighing?
I agree with you about the 20GA shotgun, mine's a pump, but the birdshot's good to go in it. Partridges or prowlers get the same medicine, though there're two shells of #4 buck up behind them if things get dicey. My older kids can handle it where they would be afraid to touch off a 12 (even if I had one) for the recoil. [smilie=f:

[1Shirt]

Versifier, 4064 weighed 33.5 gr. Am sort of wondering if I shouldn't have tried 4831. Agree with you on 4064 and 3031. Don't know why I am doing this other than the fact that life is a learning project. Many years ago, I cast a bunch of the little 358101 75gr. WC's. Two of them out of a 38S. over a standard 150gr. load of unique would group the two out of a 4" bbl. about 3-4" apart at 10 yds. A pain to load, but fun to shoot. Any how, again thanks for your info. Back to you after I foul the 94. 1Shirt

[stocker]

I load .350 pure lead balls for my 348 as a small game load. I do not size the cases used for these after firing. Flare the case mouth a bit and the ball seats firmly in the case neck. No cannelure required to hold it firmly Gentle crimp to straighten the case mouth and its done.

I use large pistol primers and the load is 8 grains of XMP5744. Groups go 5/8 for 5 balls at 25 yards. I tried loads starting at 20 grains based on some feed back from Accurate. The balls did indeed strip at that level. I kept reducing in 2 grain increments until I hit a sweet spot.

Muzzle report is on the level of a 22 short.

I modified a 3/4 target aperture disc for the receiver sight to have a second hole just below the top edge of the disc. This worked well for a 6 o'clock hold putting the point of impact right at the bottom of the black. The central hole remains available for full power loads without adjustment. I actually plug the upper hole with a short piece of round black foam when hunting big game to avaoid any confusion in the heat of the moment as I found myself sometimes selecting the wrong hole at the range. The foam can be pulled out and replaced after adding a grouse to the pot.

A few surprised faces at the range when they first saw the rifle and then heard the mild report without seeing what was being put in the chamber.

[Hang Fire]

Has anyone thought that the tiny bearing surface of a round ball will strip the grooves and shoot 'fo crap or was that the point of the 30 yard max range?


When kicked in the tail with pressure and then ball on ball, they are no longer round, they upset to fill the bore.

[Newtire]

Here goes again,
The single round ball out of the .444 worked well using 8gr. Unique with a round ball run thru the .430" sizer & smeared with liquid alox. These shot to same point of impact as the full power 265 gr. Condom loads I was using. They would all just leave a ragged hole @25yds. Noise sounded like an air rifle!

[Leftoverdj]

I've messed with multiball loads, mostly in .357, and the bottom ball ain't going nowhere until it is fired. Case taper takes care of that in "straight wall" cases. Just use slightly oversized balls. I used .360 000 buck. I have a Lyman RB mould (.434 without going to the shop to look.), but have only used it for single ball loads. I strongly suspect that you would have to size the bottom ball down to get three in a .444 case without hopelessly bulging it.

What I did run into was that two balls of a three ball load usually fused.

[versifier]

Leftoverdj,
What were the charges and details of your .357 experiments?