38 Special Bear Load

[Dvdmacdaddy]

I recently acquired a Ruger SP101 2.25" barrel and S&W 638 1 7/8 barrel. I have an old Lee 358-158-SWC mold number 90324. I am looking to develop a "BEAR" load for when we go hiking in the mountains.

The boolits are cast from Lyman #2, are .360 diameter and 164gr. If I seat to the crimp groove the OAL is 1.405in. I HiTek Coated them then sized .358.

According to Hodgon's site the 158gr LSWC with a OAL of 1.475in.

Powders on hand and listed data are 700-x (3-3.4gr), Titegroup (3.2-3.8gr), Universal (3.5-4.5gr), Clays (2.8-3.1gr), and IMR4227 (9-10gr).

I use Titegroup in my 9mm cast loads and have had good results.

I have ladder loads for TG from 2.8gr to 3.8gr in .2gr increments. Hodgdon goes as high as 4.3gr for a 158gr XTP for +P. To me 3.8gr seems like a pretty HOT load. I haven't had a chance to go to the range to test these loads.

Buffalo Bore lists their 158gr LWSC Hard Cast +P at 1027fps out of a S&W 642 1 7/8 barrel and 1043 out of a 2.5in barrel S&W.

Here is what the boolit looks like and seated.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191226/5ec117cc6dabfff620324483cbcc43b5.jpg

[Outpost75]

The SP101 will stand .38-44 Heavy Duty loads which would do better for black bear than what you propose.

You might try some of these.

Factory .38 Special +P and .38 Special (.38-44) Handloads
Ammunition____________________S&W .38-44 HD 4”

Factory Loads for Reference:

Old Super-X 158-grain LRN .38-44____994 fps, 23 Sd
Winchester X38SPD 158-gr. LHP+P___909 fps, 16 Sd

“.38-44” Handloads in .38 Special brass, W-W cases, WSP primer:

Saeco #348 146DEWC 8.9 grs.#2400+P__922 fps,12 Sd
Acc. 36-175H 4.0 grs. Bullseye+P______871 fps, 5 Sd
Acc. 36-175H 5.5 grs. AutoComp+P____902 fps, 14 Sd
Acc. 36-175H 11.5 IMR4227+P________914 fps, 22 Sd
Acc. 36-190T 8.4 #2400+P___________888 fps, 21 Sd

[gon2shoot]

I think 38 special bear load is an oxymoron, if you trust your life to it remove the oxy.
I guess it would be better than nothing, but I sure wouldn't be comfortable with it.

[NSB]

I'm assuming he's talking about black bears, not grizzly. They're more a nuisance than anything else. Any handgun is better than no handgun and I haven't heard about too many cases of black bears going on full on charge and someone having a problem stopping them with any handgun. I see them pretty regularly on my place and I've had them come too close out of either curiosity or wanting a food source. A shot or two from my handgun has sent them running. Yes, in a true life and death situation bigger would be better, but statistically the chances of getting attacked by a black bear are very, very slim. There are much greater chances of being attacked by a dog than a bear, and two footed predators are even a greater threat.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Since you will only need one round, any load will do.

Just shoot yourself when the Bear Charges and you'll be safe.

I don't see a 38 Special as being suitable for protection from even humans, let alone bears.

I guess it would be better than nothing however a caliber starting with a .4 would be a better place to start.

Next guys will be asking what brand of .22 LR is good for Bears.

Randy

[Winger Ed.]

I'd load for +P & carry both of them while I worked over time, a part time job, saved up, cashed in my scrap metal,
and sold blood until I was able to get a Smith 629 in .44 Mag. or a Marlin Alaskan in .45-70.

[kaiser]

Statistically, there are more attacks caused by Black Bears than caused by Grizzlys. I suppose because there are far more Black Bears in various states and provinces, and people tend to discount them as a threat when encountered because of their "clownish" reputations. The chance of running on to a Black Bear that has no fear of man increases the chances that it will consider you a threat if you get between it and a meal (elk or deer kill) or a threat to its cubs. Considering that a Black Bear is as big and heavy as an NFL lineman, can run 40 yards in less than 3 seconds, has claws (to spike you), and teeth (to chomp you) I would think any person might think about being properly armed in their territory! Black Bears can also climb trees rather well, Grizzly's cannot. Any pistol IMHO is a poor second choice to a rifle, but I prefer something bigger than a .38 Special. I'm not fond of .44 Mags or larger pistols due to their size, weight, balance, and recoil. A late friend of mine, who was an Elk guide in Colorado, was pulled out of a tree and mauled by a black bear and related it was the most terrifying experience he had ever had with a wild animal! He said he had never considered a Black Bear to be remotely scary until that experience and had nightmares of that attack for years. People who live in Bear Country tell of varying recommendations of what firearms to carry, but they all seem to give a healthy respect to the capabilities of any adult bear, regardless of the species where "wild animal" can be on display rather unexpectedly!

[W.R.Buchanan]

I'd load for +P & carry both of them while I worked over time, a part time job, saved up, cashed in my scrap metal,
and sold blood until I was able to get a Smith 629 in .44 Mag. or a Marlin Alaskan in .45-70.

That's the spirit!

Randy

[Der Gebirgsjager]

If a bear attacks, it comes quickly. Your shot, one, two maybe, three unlikely, will be head on. A bear has a very thick skull that is sloped a bit upward and to the rear. Lighter bullets can fail to penetrate and skid off the skull. I would want that one shot, maybe two, unlikely to be three, to be something heavier and with more penetration than a .38.

It seems that since the one or two incidents of a year ago where a bear was killed with a 9mm has caused some to believe that a smaller caliber is adequate for the job. Although it is not likely that the victim will get the opportunity to use them, most 9mms have high capacity mags that carry 15 or more rounds to the .38 revolver's 5 or 6. Better choices would be .44 Mag., .45 Colt, .45 Casull, 10mm. Because one or two shots may have to do.

[megasupermagnum]

If we are done berating the OP, I'd like to add that you can meet your goal of 158 grain at 1000 fps, although it will likely be at or above +p levels. It is completely safe in your SP101. Of what you have, IMR 4227 is going to be the only thing that will get you there. I would start at 11 grains, and work up until you get to 1000 fps.

[Boogieman]

To answer the OP's question. Use the Ruger, It will still be working when the Smith is shot loose Titegroup is too fast for heavy loads, Unique or Power Pistol work well. Lee's 158gr. RNFP is a better bullet ,more of the weight is out of the case, allows for a slightly heaver load. If I were You Id' work up a hot but safe load that I could shoot well and buy a box or two of BB s for woods carry. It's all making the best with what you have to work with

[fredj338]

TG is totally the wrong powder for +P 38sp loads. Think slower powders like AA#7, PP or BE86. Higher vel with lower pressures.

[ACC]

You have got to be kidding me! A .38 Special Bear load. Have you ever seen what a small black bear can do to a person. Can you say cat toy? I have seen what a small black bear can do. To a human and to a thick freezer door, to a car to an RV. I would have to be on meth to even take one on with a very hot .357!

If this is what you really want to do. Please don't take you kids with you.

All fun aside. Please don't do this. Take it from a professional tracker who has carried a pistol although the Rockies.

ACC:killingpc

[35remington]

Please note that since your Lee bullet has a skinny nose it has more bullet in the case than a standard 158 SWC or RN. Thus equivalent powder charges will yield higher velocities and pressures as compared to more conventional bullets.

FWIW.

[Dvdmacdaddy]

I knew the harrasment was coming on using a 38sp for bear. I was prepared for it. Most of our hiking/fishing is in black bear country, we've only seen a 5-6 in 20 yrs of hiking/fishing. Most encounters have been while fly fishing in Colorado in very remote areas, they have had cubs with them a time or two. I just move away slowly after checking my six.

One of these days I'd like to get a Ruger Redhawk 44mag.

I will give Universal and 4227 a try.

The 3.8 of TG yielded 850fps out of the Ruger.

[1bluehorse]

Next guys will be asking what brand of .22 LR is good for Bears.

Randy




For 22LR I would use CCI 40gr. Stingers.....as for shooting a Black Bear with a 158gr. HARD bullet at 1000fps it will work. Hard for penetration, and a black bears skull is not made of titanium that old "legend" came from shooting them with pure lead round balls from muzzle loaders. Of course someone will come along and say they know a guy that shot one in the head with his 300 Win mag and the bullet bounced off. If someone can kill a grizzly with a 9mm with a FMJ (done) then the 38 at the same speed, same bullet type will certainly dispatch a black bear. Unless someone here can speak of unsuccessfully doing this I will stick by my opinion. It wasn't that many years ago that the 357mag came into being and took pretty much everything that walked.

[adcoch1]

If the 38 is what you have, load a few hardcast semi wadcutters. Your bullet has a bit small of a nose for the weight range you want for a bear. I would bet that if its bad breath distance that a 158 grn wadcutter cast out of hard alloy would penetrate the skull of a black bear. But get it moving as fast as the gun can handle. Use the ruger, but look for a hotter handgun in a cal that starts with a 4 if you think bears might give you trouble. If the 38 is gonna be the only gun you use, get some bear spray too. It makes a good deterrent.

[adcoch1]

Or just use these...
https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=291?ballistics101.com

[Handloader109]

I've the same bullet and there is a LOT of difference in a 38spec and a 357 loaded up. Even using Bullseye, in my wife's little taurus, the 357 loaded to a medium load is way hotter than the 38 special. Anything is better than nothing, but I'd figure out a way to upgrade to a 357 min. 850 vs 1500 ft/sec is a LOT of difference.

[bigboredad]

You might check out what Montana bullet works has the cal. I would think they have a bit heavier bullet that would not break the bank. I would also check out accurate powder and ramshot powder reloading they get some pretty good velocity with out the pressure getting out of control

Sent from my SM-T377V using Tapatalk

[dverna]

You may wish to sell one of the.38’s and purchase a more suitable caliber with a 4-6” barrel.

An acquaintance of mine was mauled by a wounded medium size black bear two years ago. Luckily he was with others who managed to kill the bear. He spent some time in the hospital. It is bad ju-ju to piss off a bear.

Until you get something better load up the Ruger with the hottest loads that are safe and try heavier bullets like 170-180 gr.

Be safe

[Larry Gibson]

Concur with Outpost75 on the +P and 38/44 level loads for your purpose. BTW, BBs are easy to "turn" and, as mentioned, any handgun is better than no handgun or the bigger gun or rifle/shotgun left at home or in the vehicle.

See if the cylinder length will allow seating that bullet out to and crimping in the 1st lube groove (the one under the crimp groove). If so I'd suggest opting for a lb of Unique to use 5.5 - 5.8 gr of a lb of 2400 to use 12.5 gr. Neither will be your every day load practice or plinking load so the lb of powder will go a long way.

[Outpost75]

Larry,

I was wondering if you had determined suitable charges with measured pressures on heavy .38-44 loads with Alliant #2400 with bullet similar to the #358429 or Accurate 36-168H or 36-175H. These might approach 10-15% above industry +P standard, in the range of 22,000 psi, similar to the +P+LE loads, being suitable for heavier .38 Special revolvers originally built to .357 design limits, such as the SP101 and Ruger Six series .38 Specials?

Does your 12.5 grain load fairly approximate that?

[fcvan]

Okay, I know I am going to get a few groans over this, but I have THE 38 I would carry in bear country. A few years ago, I found a Ruger OM Vaquero, 4 5/8" chambered in . . . Wait for it . . . 38-40 WCF. It came with a spare cylinder for 40 S&W.

When they first chambered the SBH for 38-40, the spare cylinder was 10mm. At any rate, the OM Vaquero is on the SBH frame and can be loaded a bit warmer that the old black powder loads. That Vaquero was the best $400 I ever spent for a NIB Ruger. It had sat on a shelf in a case for so long it had dust bunnies in the cylinder as no one wanted the odd caliber. Not even I knew it came with 2 cylinders until the lady at the store went to get the box and told me 'btw. . .'

One begats another, I picked up a Ruger OM Vaquero 4 5/8" 45 Colt to go with my 20" Classic Carbine in 45 Colt. Now if I could just get a 20" Carbine in 38-40, hmm. Anyway, to me 38-40 is special :)

[Petrol & Powder]

The OP has two snubnose revolvers and one is chambered in 38 Special (the S&W) and the other gun may be chambered in 357 mag (the SP101). The Ruger is clearly the stronger of the two revolvers. So if the goal is to produce the stoutest load possible, the Ruger is the best candidate of those two. The OP has molds for 38 bullets which means the OP has molds for 357 bullets as well :idea:, I don't know why the OP is focusing on 38 Special loads when it appears the OP could load for 357 mag.

Moving onto the Bear issue.
I seriously question the need to shoot a black bear in self-defense. Your best defense is a little bit of common sense. More black bear attacks occur than attacks from other types of bears because there are more black bears and their range is far larger. However, despite the disproportionate number of black bears compared to other types of bears, attacks on humans by black bears are still exceedingly rare. I would be FAR more concerned about encountering a human that intends to harm me than an animal that intends to harm me.

With that out of the way and working within the OP's self-imposed criteria - the best option for the OP is to select a load that maximizes penetration. A hard, heavy bullet with a pointed profile driven as fast as possible would be the best against a bear.

Frankly, I would forget the bears and select a load that would be likely to stop some sociopath, meth-head that wants to hurt me. That's a greater, and far more likely, threat.

[Chihuahua Floyd]

One of the boys I work with asked stability weight to use for best hunting in a 223, I advised another gun.
CF

[Larry Gibson]

Larry,

I was wondering if you had determined suitable charges with measured pressures on heavy .38-44 loads with Alliant #2400 with bullet similar to the #358429 or Accurate 36-168H or 36-175H. These might approach 10-15% above industry +P standard, in the range of 22,000 psi, similar to the +P+LE loads, being suitable for heavier .38 Special revolvers originally built to .357 design limits, such as the SP101 and Ruger Six series .38 Specials?

Does your 12.5 grain load fairly approximate that?

Sorry Outpost but I've not pressure tested any 358421 or similar simply because I don't have that mould now as I traded off the mould I had with a very nice OM BH with 6" barrel.....big regrets over that trade...…..

My testing has been with 150 gr 358477s and 160 gr 358156s (seated out to second crimp groove. Using 12.5 gr Alliant 2400 or 6 gr Alliant Unique in R-P brass cases with WSP primers the pressure with the 2 bullets pushed 25 - 26,000 psi. The Lee 158 gr bullet the OP uses seated to the 1st lube groove would give similar psi because the eating depth is similar to the 2 bullets I use. A Lee TL 158 SWC seated to a similar depth (2nd Lube groove) performs similarly.

[Outpost75]

If you would have time to test them I could send Accurate 36-168H and 36-175H as I have both of those molds. I've been using 10 grains of Alliant #2400 with the 168 and 9 grains with the 175 in .38 Special brass. When cast hard the 168H goes about 165 grains, but in soft 1:30 tin-lead the 175H pushes 180 grains! Alloy matters.

253727253728

[Tracy]

I remember reading about a forest ranger who was on the ground with a grizzly on top of him when he stopped the attack with a .357 Magnum; pretty sure it was 125 JHPs. First shot broke the bear's shoulder, slowing it down. Second shot killed the bear.
I would rather have a 158 grain cast SWC at 1000 fps than a 125 JHP at 1400-1500 fps for that use.

I would get some 2400; that is the classic .38-44 powder and is still probably the best powder for what you want to do. Elmer Keith used to load his ~170 grain SWC over 13.5 grains of 2400. Skeeter used the same charge with the 158 grain 358156. John Taffin wrote about carrying and shooting (sparingly) that load in his Chief's Special. You can read all about it here: http://www.sixguns.com/tests/tt38spcl.htm

[nelsonted1]

A friend sent me an email on how they had spent the weekend with bears in a friends yard. They were so cute. The cubs came right up to them and begged.
I replied telling her how dangerous sows can be when their cubs are hurt. What if they get bumped by a car? or are surprised and squeal? The sow could instantly be on them and fix thm up. What about when the screen is pulled on the front door and the sow sweeps through, comes in the house and pulls the cabinets down, turns over the fridge and craps on the kitchen floor?
This as nothing to do with shooting an attacking bear but still. I strongly suggested giving the sow a load of birdshot from far back enough to tingle some but not enough to shake off the dust. Get that sow a long way away.
She got mad at me.
How many bear attacks are by bears having lost any fear of humans?

[nelsonted1]

She's the same woman who sent me an email with pics of hippies in Washington who were feeding and taming deer. There were several pics of a couple bucks they'd trained to stand on their hind legs and put their front feet on the guys shoulders for treats. I am appalled at people sometimes. She didn't like my forceful response on that one either

[John McCorkle]

Since you will only need one round, any load will do.

Just shoot yourself when the Bear Charges and you'll be safe.

I don't see a 38 Special as being suitable for protection from even humans, let alone bears.

I guess it would be better than nothing however a caliber starting with a .4 would be a better place to start.

Next guys will be asking what brand of .22 LR is good for Bears.

RandyWow good grief...I mean I get disagreeing with someone but suggesting killing themself is both rude and callused...some people lose loved ones this way

Agreed 38 is not a bear round...but it's not a deer round, hog round, or cattle culling round either but has been used in all those capacities...and given no other firearms on hand the OP asked for suggestions on a load that would work best given its limitations.

Heavier the better, what you can practice with alot and get good with is better...

Sent from my moto g(7) power using Tapatalk

[dondiego]

Statistically, there are more deaths caused by Black Bears than caused by Grizzlys. I suppose because there are far more Black Bears in various states and provinces, and people tend to discount them as a threat when encountered because of their "clownish" reputations. The greater chance of running on to a Black Bear that has no fear of man increases the chances that it will consider you a threat if you get between it and a meal (elk or deer kill) or a threat to its cubs. Considering that a Black Bear is as big and heavy as an NFL lineman, can run 40 yards in less than 3 seconds, has claws (to spike you), and teeth (to chomp you) I would think any person might think about being properly armed in their territory! Black Bears can also climb trees rather well, Grizzly's cannot. Any pistol IMHO is a poor second choice to a rifle, but I prefer something bigger than a .38 Special. I'm not fond of .44 Mags or larger pistols due to their size, weight, balance, and recoil. A late friend of mine, who was an Elk guide in Colorado, was pulled out of a tree and mauled by a black bear and related it was the most terrifying experience he had ever had with a wild animal! He said he had never considered a Black Bear to be remotely scary until that experience and had nightmares of that attack for years. People who live in Bear Country tell of varying recommendations of what firearms to carry, but they all seem to give a healthy respect to the capabilities of any adult bear, regardless of the species where "wild animal" can be on display rather unexpectedly!
I didn't think that grizzly's could climb trees either until I saw a few video's of them doing it! https://youtu.be/dPnp3fLOER8

[Petrol & Powder]

Considering that the OP wrote the word "BEAR" in capital letters and in quotation marks,.......I think he was referring to something other than bears with four legs.

[mdi]

I am far from a black bear expert as I've only seen one in real life up in the hills. The bear I saw was bigger then a large St. Bernard, but smaller than the Grizzly I saw at the zoo, and I would not think of shooting it with anything less than a full 357 Magnum w/heavy bullets or 44 (a hot Special but more likely a Magnum). I've seen threads asking about 357 Mag and 9mm for "woods protection", but it seems experienced hunters/woodsman think a fully loaded 357 is marginal, and laughed at the thought of using a 9mm...

There are sometimes the posts talking about "I once killed a 500 lb hog with my 22 Single Six", that follow and most are under tightly controlled conditions. I worked in a slaughter house one summer and saw 1,000 lb steers put down, not killed, just unconscious, with a 22 blank. But in reality, I think a 38 Special, +P, or ++P, in
"woodsy" conditions is vastly undergunned...

[John McCorkle]

I am far from a black bear expert as I've only seen one in real life up in the hills. The bear I saw was bigger then a large St. Bernard, but smaller than the Grizzly I saw at the zoo, and I would not think of shooting it with anything less than a full 357 Magnum w/heavy bullets or 44 (a hot Special but more likely a Magnum). I've seen threads asking about 357 Mag and 9mm for "woods protection", but it seems experienced hunters/woodsman think a fully loaded 357 is marginal, and laughed at the thought of using a 9mm...

There are sometimes the posts talking about "I once killed a 500 lb hog with my 22 Single Six", that follow and most are under tightly controlled conditions. I worked in a slaughter house one summer and saw 1,000 lb steers put down, not killed, just unconscious, with a 22 blank. But in reality, I think a 38 Special, +P, or ++P, in
"woodsy" conditions is vastly undergunned...I would agree, but I think hunting and defense are two different things. Man if I had my choice and money were no option I'd have a 'shield bearer' with a 458 win mag or two...but all the realms of possibilities end with what is real. I think the OP (and I'm just reading between the lines using the best info I have) doesn't have a 357, 44 mag or other handgun to use ...and is anticipating going into what could be bear country. He would like to go armed since he has a 38 spc. I would go with a 38 spc if my choice was go with one OR go empty handed. I don't think he is going with intent to track down hunt and kill a bear...he is taking what he has and looking for advice on what would work best within those limitations.

Sent from my moto g(7) power using Tapatalk

[Dvdmacdaddy]

The OP has two snubnose revolvers and one is chambered in 38 Special (the S&W) and the other gun may be chambered in 357 mag (the SP101). The Ruger is clearly the stronger of the two revolvers. So if the goal is to produce the stoutest load possible, the Ruger is the best candidate of those two. The OP has molds for 38 bullets which means the OP has molds for 357 bullets as well :idea:, I don't know why the OP is focusing on 38 Special loads when it appears the OP could load for 357.

The SP101 is a 38 special.

[kevin c]

Considering that the OP wrote the word "BEAR" in capital letters and in quotation marks,.......I think he was referring to something other than bears with four legs.
Good catch. May be on the money, given the wording in the OP and in his reply.

I wasn't there, but I heard a funny one about a customer in a hunting shop asking if a 9mm pistol would stop a bear.

The owner's reply: "Sure, if you stick your hand in the bear's mouth and empty the magazine before he bites it off".

[Larry Gibson]

If you would have time to test them I could send Accurate 36-168H and 36-175H as I have both of those molds. I've been using 10 grains of Alliant #2400 with the 168 and 9 grains with the 175 in .38 Special brass. When cast hard the 168H goes about 165 grains, but in soft 1:30 tin-lead the 175H pushes 180 grains! Alloy matters.

253727253728

Sure, send them and I'll test them in both 38 SPL and 357 Magnum cases.

[Petrol & Powder]

The SP101 is a 38 special.

OK, we've established the SP101 is chambered for 38 Special.

Do you intend to use that SP101 for the potential defense against black bear?

[Dvdmacdaddy]

Yes, since it does have a stronger frame than the S&W.

[Petrol & Powder]

And in your first post your wrote, "I am looking to develop a "BEAR" load for when we go hiking in the mountains."

Is there some reason you put the word Bear in quotes and used all caps?

[Petrol & Powder]

Is that somehow different than writing the word bear without quotes and capital letters?

Or is there some insinuation that I'm missing?

[1006]

I would sell the SP101—get a Glock 20, load it with Buffalo Bore or Cor-Bon. 15 rounds of 10mm in an easy to carry light package. Keep the S&W as a carry gun.

[Outpost75]

Sure, send them and I'll test them in both 38 SPL and 357 Magnum cases.

10-4 will do soon.

[Petrol & Powder]

I think it is a good idea for responsible, law abiding adults to carry a handgun.
If that responsible, law abiding adult wishes to carry a handgun while hiking - GREAT !

What I don't understand is the need to "justify" your decision to carry a handgun in the woods by saying it is for a potential black bear attack.

[jonp]

You carry what you got. I load up my wife's 38sp with 148gr WC with 5gr+ of Unique. Kill the bear or just brain him till she can run off is all the same.
BTW: We have that pistol and with the above load be prepared for the recoil and muzzle flash. Better yet, trade that SP in for a 357Mag SP. Unpleasant to shoot but it will take it if you can.

[Tom W.]

IIRC there was an article somewhere on this site less than a month ago where a man put six rounds from his .45 acp while at a hotel in Gatlinburg. They never did find the bear.....

[Kraschenbirn]

The OP's SP101 chambered for .38 Spl. is the same frame and cylinder as the .357 Mag. version so it will easily digest 'hot' .38s without issue. Several years ago, I acquired a 3" .38 and did a bit of research when I noticed they were no longer listed in the Ruger catalogue. According to my source, the .38s were produced, primarily, for sale to LE agencies (like NYC) that limited their officers to 'standard caliber' weapons...i.e. .38 Spl and 9mm...and were discontinued as more departments switched over to high-capacity autos.

Bill

[Hamish]

IMO, ".38 Special" and "bear load" are mutually exclusionary of each other. Seriously. Kind of like "midget" and "pole vaulter". Might be able to try really hard, but chance are, you're going to lose.

[charlie b]

There have been a lot more questions like these since that professional guide in Alaska killed a grizzly with his little 9mm.

From what I remember he was to the side of the bear and the bear was not charging. He was lucky. Also, that was not his 'normal' field gun. He was guiding where he thought there would not be any bears that day so he took the 9 instead of his regular gun (IIRC a .44mag).

Bears and other animals show up in a variety of circumstances. Some are just wandering around and want a place to 'sit'. Some may be trying to protect their young. Some might be hungry. If you read some of the stuff by bear experts some black bear attacks could be due to the bear wanting to 'play' or it is trying to run away and you are in the path it has chosen. So, a response by a bear to a loud sound or being shot will also be different. Sometimes it will result in the bear running away, sometimes the bear will ignore it and fight harder.

I have no problem carrying a .357 into the woods. But, I know that it might not stop some animals.

Last, whatever you choose to carry, practice with it a lot, with the holster you will use in the field. And know where to shoot from different angles to hit the vitals.

[Tracy]

The OP's SP101 chambered for .38 Spl. is the same frame and cylinder as the .357 Mag. version so it will easily digest 'hot' .38s without issue. Several years ago, I acquired a 3" .38 and did a bit of research when I noticed they were no longer listed in the Ruger catalogue. According to my source, the .38s were produced, primarily, for sale to LE agencies (like NYC) that limited their officers to 'standard caliber' weapons...i.e. .38 Spl and 9mm...and were discontinued as more departments switched over to high-capacity autos.

Bill

The SP-101 was originally only produced in .38 Special. Masaad Ayoob had one rechambered to .357 Magnum to fire factory 125 grain loads. They had a shorter cylinder then, and anything longer wouldn't fit.
Mas wrote articles about this gun and continued pestering Ruger about it until they started offering it in .357 Mag.

Btw, .38 Special brass will easily handle .357 pressures. Especially the neutered .357 loads we have now, which is the same pressure as (also neutered for SAAMI) 9mm.

[John McCorkle]

K, so let's step back off the high horse of carry a freight train or nothing at all and die for a moment....

Seriously, I think we have beaten a dead horse by stating over and over the 38 is under powered, we have seen examples of questioning the OPs intelligence, his will to live and even a veiled suggestion to commit suicide...good grief. Guys. OP asked a question, the OP did not ask for us all to roast him and belittle.

How much of this discussion is based on fact or experience vs what we have heard and what we have been told? I think it's pretty understood that a larger more powerful caliber is generally more effective. The closer you can get to 35 whelen the better. Yes. Good. Fact.

However, if you only had. 38 special and weren't inclined to sell it to get a different gun for the very rare event that you may get attacked but wanted a load with what you already have on hand, what would the most effective load be given the limitations....that was the question in a nutshell. Cut it out with the belittlement and give an answer to the question.

https://www.ammoland.com/2018/02/defense-against-bears-with-pistols-97-success-rate-37-incidents-by-caliber/#axzz69MVNjLws

9mm and 38 +p aren't that far apart in energy...and I think the difference is mild enough to be accounted for in shot placement/temperament of the animal/etc.

It's doable. It's possible...maybe not ideal but with the toolset he has on hand he can mount a respectable defense with the right load.

Sent from my moto g(7) power using Tapatalk

[Dvdmacdaddy]

Is that somehow different than writing the word bear without quotes and capital letters?

Or is there some insinuation that I'm missing?

I was referencing the outdoor loads by Buffalo Bore. I encounter Black Bear and Hogs at least once a year, while hunting/fishing. Hogs not so worried about as I am usually hunting and have my rifle with me. Fly Fishing on the other hand I have my day pack with food/water/medical/spare rod/etc. Fly fishing with a rifle/shotgun on your back isn’t easy.

I use to carry my .40 Shield and Glock 27 loaded with FMJ in a chest holster, under my fly vest. I couldn’t stand those guns, I tried for two years to like them and hated the dern things (shot the 9mm variants several times it’s just as bad). Not a S&W auto loader fan or a Glock fab boy. I use to own several S&W/Glocks sold them all and started buying Sig or Walther, haven’t looked back since.

I do have other pistols: 9mm - PPQ, PPQ Q5, P229 (my preferred CCW); 380acp - P238 ; 45acp- Sig 1911. I like the Walther tiggers much better than anything striker fired I’ve found, then there is the sweet sweet feel of a hammer fired weapon (my preferred feel).

[Dvdmacdaddy]

You are FAR more likely to be killed in a car accident (37,133 deaths in 2017 in the U.S.A.)
I live in West Texas in the oil patch and those chances drastically increase.


In regards to carrying a 38sp daily. I carry a P229 when I can, I use to carry a P238 if I couldn’t carry the P229. I wanted to get the 38’s to carry as they are marginally better than a 380 and just as easy to conceal. I am really liking carrying the S&W daily, the Ruger doesn’t conceal as well in summer clothes (it’s West Texas we tend to go from 80deg to 20 deg weekly). I am considering selling the Ruger to get a bigger bore revolver and keeping and S&W for carry. I got a hell of a deal on the two of them so I will make money on selling the Ruger anyways (previous owners couldn’t stand the recoil and wanted them gone, I made a low ball offer they took it).

[W.R.Buchanan]

Wow this thread keeps going faster and faster, and we are having a good time belittling the OP (DVDMac) who works in the West Texas Oil Fields and puts up with worse everyday before lunch. BOHICA!

I was going to interject a shotgun into the mix, but Fly Fishing with one on your back would get old pretty fast. But you can't argue with the performance. It could be placed close to you like if you're in a boat, so you could grab it quickly, and still have your revolver on your person to fight your way to your shotgun or rifle. Best of both worlds using that approach, just don't let yourself get too far away from the long gun.

I mean really,,, what would you rather throw at a bear. The Lyman 525 slug with a .550 meplat or the .40 cal 180 gr slug with a .260 meplat. (I had a 173 gr Lyman .357 mould which is close to the .40 cal boolit) The big slug will be going 1200 fps (mild and very controllable load) and so will the pistol round so the speed is not an issue but 3X the weight does make a serious difference.

Just for kicks the TKO for the .40 cal slug is 13.4. The TKO for the shotgun slug is 67.8 ! So there is a big difference in knockdown power. The TKO for your 158 gr Boolit at 1000 fps is 8.0 so you are definitely behind the curve powerwise. Then consider Point "B".

Point "B" being,,,, you have to actually hit said bear in the face with a handgun round while it is running at you. Preferably with the first shot.

I would suggest alot of practice, drawing the gun from your Chest Holster and shooting at Pie Plates from 5, 7, 10, 15 and 20 yards working from close to far so as to gain confidence. Also Presenting the Weapon without covering your body is a good thing to pay attention to, as shooting yourself when drawing on a charging Bear would be counterproductive..

Obviously this would be easier to accomplish with a short barreled shotgun like a M500 with a side mounted sling, and you could have a couple of 00 Buckshot loads up front which would increase your odds of hitting the target.

I think I see your purpose here though. It looks to me like you are trying to be armed with something that would hurt, but in the smallest possible package so as not to weigh you down from your primary purpose of being there. IE; fishing.

However the .38 snubby is just not the answer, but if you had to have a snubby a Charter Arms Bulldog in .44 Special would be a far better place to start. Mind you you still will have to learn how to present the weapon and actually hit a target, but you'd be slinging 260 gr boolits and they would actually do something positive if you hit the target. Nobody would argue with this approach. I don't have a CA bulldog, but I do have a S&W 696 which is what a Bulldog would like to be when it grows up. A Ruger GP100/44 is also a good choice, and much more affordable than the S&W.

In any event you are looking at alot of practice to become proficient enough to rely on any of these guns to keep you safe. You also need to have a look at, and come to grips with, what circumstances you are willing to shoot at and possibly kill a charging animal or more likely a human who is being bad in the outback. People do tend to go stupid when away from Civilization. West Texas has more than it's share of people problems and many don't even speak English, back to the shotgun!

All this would come out in a Defensive Weapons Class (Rifle Pistol or Shotgun) and you'd be better off taking one or all of those classes so you would directly address some of the pratfalls of armed defense. Also consider a "Lanyard" on your Fly Rod so when you drop it while going for your gun you don't lose it. Realistically working this into your presentation would be a good thing to consider.

Sounds like you'll have some fun learning all these new fangled ways of looking at your hobby. Glad we could help and hope we haven't been too hard on you. :holysheep.

Good Luck!

Randy

[jaysouth]

If a .38 spl was my bear gun, I would get a good sturdy fly swatter for a backup.

[ACC]

I recently acquired a Ruger SP101 2.25" barrel and S&W 638 1 7/8 barrel. I have an old Lee 358-158-SWC mold number 90324. I am looking to develop a "BEAR" load for when we go hiking in the mountains.

The boolits are cast from Lyman #2, are .360 diameter and 164gr. If I seat to the crimp groove the OAL is 1.405in. I HiTek Coated them then sized .358.

According to Hodgon's site the 158gr LSWC with a OAL of 1.475in.

Powders on hand and listed data are 700-x (3-3.4gr), Titegroup (3.2-3.8gr), Universal (3.5-4.5gr), Clays (2.8-3.1gr), and IMR4227 (9-10gr).

I use Titegroup in my 9mm cast loads and have had good results.

I have ladder loads for TG from 2.8gr to 3.8gr in .2gr increments. Hodgdon goes as high as 4.3gr for a 158gr XTP for +P. To me 3.8gr seems like a pretty HOT load. I haven't had a chance to go to the range to test these loads.

Buffalo Bore lists their 158gr LWSC Hard Cast +P at 1027fps out of a S&W 642 1 7/8 barrel and 1043 out of a 2.5in barrel S&W.

Here is what the boolit looks like and seated.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191226/5ec117cc6dabfff620324483cbcc43b5.jpg

I shoot that bulet in my .357. Mine are 162 grains. According to my brothers notes 14.5 is a good hunting load.

ACC

[DougGuy]

I won't even carry a .3 something for defense on the street let alone dangerous wildlife in a location far from any hope of first responders arriving in time to save my old butt.

I favor a Kahr CW45, with Speer Gold Dot 230gr jhp ammo which penetrated a good 9" into Carolina red clay and exhibited textbook perfect expansion. This gun is not much more in weight and size than most 380s. It packs all day every day without complaint. There isn't a 38 on the planet that will match boolit/bullet performance that I am aware of.

[6bg6ga]

Its amazing what some will do here to increase their post count. 38 special for bear? Can you say 44 magnum with the nastiest load available? If your going to carry a 38 special for protection I get it....just shoot yourself in the freeking head when one gets close and you won't have to worry. Actually there is another way. Take plenty of x lax before you go out and when you see the bear you will **** yourself and the bear will not be able to get any traction when it is chasing you thru the woods.

[jonp]

I won't even carry a .3 something for defense on the street let alone dangerous wildlife in a location far from any hope of first responders arriving in time to save my old butt.

I favor a Kahr CW45, with Speer Gold Dot 230gr jhp ammo which penetrated a good 9" into Carolina red clay and exhibited textbook perfect expansion. This gun is not much more in weight and size than most 380s. It packs all day every day without complaint. There isn't a 38 on the planet that will match boolit/bullet performance that I am aware of.

Kahr's are underated guns for some reason. I love mine for carry or just messing around with. Best DAO trigger I've come across.

[dondiego]

I am petty sure his .38 BEAR loads are going to be better than my .22 BEAR loads!

[ShooterAZ]

I have had numerous up close encounters with black bears. Mostly in hunting blinds, but not always. Each time was with the same result, I yelled at them and they took off like a scalded cat. They generally want to avoid humans, at least around here anyway. If all I had was a 38 Special or 9mm, I'd certainly use it if I had to. It's better than throwing rocks or poking them with a sharp stick.

[6bg6ga]

Remember the Red Ryder bee bee gun? You'll shoot your eyes out. That is the answer..... shoot the bears eyes out and if he isn't running at you like a freight train ya might have a chance.

[onelight]

Dvdmacdaddys question makes sense to me , if I am not hunting and am carrying for defense against man or beast I would try to pick the best bullet and load for the CC gun I choose for the most difficult critter to put down that I might encounter , if I knew I was going to need it or the odds were high of a dangerous situation I would have a long gun .
When we take the grandkids hiking in Co. I normally carry a 3.8" 45acp loaded with 250 grain flat point bullets .And to tell the truth elk have made me more nervous on some of the trails than anything else , restricted trails , elk and caves , within 20 yards at times and us trying to keep 6 young kids calm and under control wild animals are predictable until they are not. The only bears we run into are around the cabins at night .
I don't pocket carry so I don't carry a short 38s .
I am going to cary any way might as well cary a load geared toward the heaviest threat .

[bigboredad]

Since you have a Sig 45 I would look at the 45 slc from double tap. I'm sure cigs are rated for 45+p and changing to a 18-20 pound recoil spring and a flat bottom firing pin stop to slow the slide down. You could basically double your firepower with a 10rnd mag and increase your stopping power as well. Better yet sell your Ruger and purchase a 460 Rowland kit from Clark custom guns or Johnny Rowland for $295 and you'd be way better prepared. Just a thought you have options and time before spring to make a decision and get some practice. Good luck with your decision

Sent from my SM-T377V using Tapatalk

[P Flados]

You seem to understand the limitations of a 38. If you want to push things, I would stick with the Ruger, even if it is a tad larger. If you want to use a small gun, you need to make the best of your choice. A heavy cast boolit is reasonable. You do want as much velocity as reasonably achievable. To get this you want the longest COL that still lets you crimp for 100% reliability with no risk of creep.

EDIT: After double checking some stuff, I backed off my recommendation just a tad. I have seen good info saying that the Ruger SP-101 in 38 SP is just as strong as the same gun in 357 Mag. Some SP-101 guns in 38 SP have shorter cylinders (depending on when made). 4227 can probably be loaded to 100% load density (LD) with your bullet. For this type of application, I prefer going for just under 100% LD (say 1/16" air gap) instead of giving a charge weight due to all of the variables that affect available space. The further out you can seat your bullet, the more space you will have for powder.

Again, make sure you have a good crimp. Test it by backing off a little on the crimp and firing all but one round. If there is any creep at all, add a little more crimp. After you get to "no creep" add some more crimp for margin.

EDIT: I really do not like loading ammo to pressures more than the SAAMI rating for the headstamp. If I wanted to push 38SP loads based on a specific gun, I would prefer getting some 357 mag cases and trim them down to 38 SP length.

[Golfswithwolves]

The OP's SP101 chambered for .38 Spl. is the same frame and cylinder as the .357 Mag. version so it will easily digest 'hot' .38s without issue. Several years ago, I acquired a 3" .38 and did a bit of research when I noticed they were no longer listed in the Ruger catalogue. According to my source, the .38s were produced, primarily, for sale to LE agencies (like NYC) that limited their officers to 'standard caliber' weapons...i.e. .38 Spl and 9mm...and were discontinued as more departments switched over to high-capacity autos.

Bill

IF Dvdmacdaddy's revolver is indeed of equal strength to the .357 Magnum, then to answer his question I would think that the old Elmer Keith .38/44 load would be about the best one to give a guy a chance against a bear using this weapon.

[JimB..]

Ya’ll are being a bit over dramatic, I feel well prepared with even a .25 or .22. I figure anything big enough to slow down my fishing buddy is good enough.

[Dvdmacdaddy]

Wow this thread keeps going faster and faster, and we are having a good time belittling the OP (DVDMac) who works in the West Texas Oil Fields and puts up with worse everyday before lunch.

I work for a public school, if I worked in the oil fields this thread wouldn’t have happened. I’d just go buy me a Ruger Redhawk 44mag and not even think twice about it.

I take defensive handgun classes 3-4 times a year and shoot IDPA locally 3-4 times a month. I practice a few times a month (dry fire and live fire) rotating through my carry guns/positions/holsters/clothing. I like to stay sharp and prepared.

I took the SP101 on trade for a person that owed me money. I have always loved the look and feel of the SP101, so it was a win for me.

I am researching the Keith 38/44 load data, going to try some suggestions for loads in this thread and revived a few PMs with load suggestions. Hopefully will have some time in the next few days to hit the reloading room.

[Outpost75]

Ruger SP101 chambered in .38 Special is fully capable of handling the Keith style .38-44 Heavy Duty loads which were developed around the S&W N-frame revolvers. I shot the early .38 Special SP101 revolver rather extensively when they first came out. Using a heavy Keith-type bullet similar to the #358429, Accurate 36-168H or 36-175H a charge of 12.5 grains of Alliant #2400 is a serious load which would do the work. IMHO the 13.5 grain charge so often quoted from Keith IS excessive, but will probably not going to damage this particular stout little gun. I just don't see the need, if extraction is the least bit sticky.

[ACC]

I recently acquired a Ruger SP101 2.25" barrel and S&W 638 1 7/8 barrel. I have an old Lee 358-158-SWC mold number 90324. I am looking to develop a "BEAR" load for when we go hiking in the mountains.

The boolits are cast from Lyman #2, are .360 diameter and 164gr. If I seat to the crimp groove the OAL is 1.405in. I HiTek Coated them then sized .358.

According to Hodgon's site the 158gr LSWC with a OAL of 1.475in.

Powders on hand and listed data are 700-x (3-3.4gr), Titegroup (3.2-3.8gr), Universal (3.5-4.5gr), Clays (2.8-3.1gr), and IMR4227 (9-10gr).

I use Titegroup in my 9mm cast loads and have had good results.

I have ladder loads for TG from 2.8gr to 3.8gr in .2gr increments. Hodgdon goes as high as 4.3gr for a 158gr XTP for +P. To me 3.8gr seems like a pretty HOT load. I haven't had a chance to go to the range to test these loads.

Buffalo Bore lists their 158gr LWSC Hard Cast +P at 1027fps out of a S&W 642 1 7/8 barrel and 1043 out of a 2.5in barrel S&W.

Here is what the boolit looks like and seated.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191226/5ec117cc6dabfff620324483cbcc43b5.jpg

FYI that bullet cast with 1:16 metal will weigh about 166 grains.

ACC

[Mr_Sheesh]

A family member was out hiking, this particular time (despite being in what I consider a high meth-idiot area) they chose not to carry.

A rather ill-tempered, rather large Black Bear boar took offense to them, for some reason, and chased them up a rock wall (I call it "treed" even though no tree was involved - Same difference...) Bear couldn't quite get at them, but, they couldn't escape either.

After a time, this idiot of a family member figured out that they could dig a couple rocks off that rock wall and bang them together and the boar decided they didn't LIKE that sound, it sounded too much like gunfire - and left.

Yeah, killings by bears are rare etc. etc. - If you'd experienced that, though, I doubt any sane person here wouldn't want to choose the best load, just in CASE, and would then carry it like it was part of them.

They'd be carrying ANYWAYS, they just want to increase their chances, in case this rare thing happens.

Is that REALLY any sort of valid reason to attack their position repeatedly? (IMO, no)

BUT "They're using a .38 Special, they should be using a bigger gun!"? News flash - not everyone can afford a new gun on every whim. I have carried a SBH in 44 Rem Mag, 7.5" barrel flavor But I bought that some time ago, and family member "helped themelves" some time ago. I was making pretty good money back then. I'm worse off than most teachers, sadly, now, though.

I don't want CB to be a place where someone thinking their position is "right over all other peoples'" feels they can berate others for circumstances that may not entirely be up to them, or which could be due to feeling a duty to help others, etc.

I figured I'd mention this once, if it gets worse I may do the same.

The other thing about a round optimized for Bear in a .38 - It sure won't have penetration issues with your local methhead, cougar, or other predator.

And I find that assuming the # of bear attacks to be that low is true only if we "know" that other miscellaneous times people go missing, aren't due to that.

I was in a Search and Rescue group for many years; It is HARD to find an aircraft crash site in the woods here in WA State. Hard enough that, despite our looking hard with ground teams and air crews, it's fairly often a hunter or hiker who "gets lost" several years later, that finds the crash site and calls it in. (Once in a while, someone isn't nice and grabs the credit cards and sees if they can buy things with them; That's NASTY ahd very hard on the family.)

Now, if pieces of a lost aircraft scattered over 100 yards of forest can be that hard to find, just how easy do you think it is to find some poor person's remains, who a wild animal killed? Trust me, that's a lot harder.

I cannot "prove" it but I suspect that there are a few more Black Bear kills than documented. Just my suspicion.

Also I remember back in the 70s-80s a Railroad Ballast inspector, walking the rails, came upon a live Grizzly back in Pennsylvania; IIRC they killed it by throwing pieces of railroad ballast. (Give that guy a job in Major League Baseball!) Griz is a whole 'nother sort of animal entirely; I've been around those, just never had any problems with them.

[John McCorkle]

A family member was out hiking, this particular time (despite being in what I consider a high meth-idiot area) they chose not to carry.

A rather ill-tempered, rather large Black Bear boar took offense to them, for some reason, and chased them up a rock wall (I call it "treed" even though no tree was involved - Same difference...) Bear couldn't quite get at them, but, they couldn't escape either.

After a time, this idiot of a family member figured out that they could dig a couple rocks off that rock wall and bang them together and the boar decided they didn't LIKE that sound, it sounded too much like gunfire - and left.

Yeah, killings by bears are rare etc. etc. - If you'd experienced that, though, I doubt any sane person here wouldn't want to choose the best load, just in CASE, and would then carry it like it was part of them.

They'd be carrying ANYWAYS, they just want to increase their chances, in case this rare thing happens.

Is that REALLY any sort of valid reason to attack their position repeatedly? (IMO, no)

BUT "They're using a .38 Special, they should be using a bigger gun!"? News flash - not everyone can afford a new gun on every whim. I have carried a SBH in 44 Rem Mag, 7.5" barrel flavor But I bought that some time ago, and family member "helped themelves" some time ago. I was making pretty good money back then. I'm worse off than most teachers, sadly, now, though.

I don't want CB to be a place where someone thinking their position is "right over all other peoples'" feels they can berate others for circumstances that may not entirely be up to them, or which could be due to feeling a duty to help others, etc.

I figured I'd mention this once, if it gets worse I may do the same.

The other thing about a round optimized for Bear in a .38 - It sure won't have penetration issues with your local methhead, cougar, or other predator.

And I find that assuming the # of bear attacks to be that low is true only if we "know" that other miscellaneous times people go missing, aren't due to that.

I was in a Search and Rescue group for many years; It is HARD to find an aircraft crash site in the woods here in WA State. Hard enough that, despite our looking hard with ground teams and air crews, it's fairly often a hunter or hiker who "gets lost" several years later, that finds the crash site and calls it in. (Once in a while, someone isn't nice and grabs the credit cards and sees if they can buy things with them; That's NASTY ahd very hard on the family.)

Now, if pieces of a lost aircraft scattered over 100 yards of forest can be that hard to find, just how easy do you think it is to find some poor person's remains, who a wild animal killed? Trust me, that's a lot harder.

I cannot "prove" it but I suspect that there are a few more Black Bear kills than documented. Just my suspicion.

Also I remember back in the 70s-80s a Railroad Ballast inspector, walking the rails, came upon a live Grizzly back in Pennsylvania; IIRC they killed it by throwing pieces of railroad ballast. (Give that guy a job in Major League Baseball!) Griz is a whole 'nother sort of animal entirely; I've been around those, just never had any problems with them.Yes thank you! Well rounded response

Sent from my moto g(7) power using Tapatalk

[Wayne Dobbs]

Ruger SP101 chambered in .38 Special is fully capable of handling the Keith style .38-44 Heavy Duty loads which were developed around the S&W N-frame revolvers. I shot the early .38 Special SP101 revolver rather extensively when they first came out. Using a heavy Keith-type bullet similar to the #358429, Accurate 36-168H or 36-175H a charge of 12.5 grains of Alliant #2400 is a serious load which would do the work. IMHO the 13.5 grain charge so often quoted from Keith IS excessive, but will probably not going to damage this particular stout little gun. I just don't see the need, if extraction is the least bit sticky.

Two questions:

1. How bad did it hurt to shoot that revolver with those loads??
2. Are the Speed and Service Sixes also that strong?

[Larry Gibson]

Two questions:

1. How bad did it hurt to shoot that revolver with those loads??
2. Are the Speed and Service Sixes also that strong?

!; Less so than the same revolver made in 357 Magnum. Besides, the 38/44 level loads are not going to be an every day plinking load.....if used in such an emergencies as being discussed I doubt the recoil, if felt at all, will be an issue.

2; Yes, the Ruger Speed and Security Sixes are just as strong, both the 38 SPLs and the 357 magnums, as the SP101s. As with the SP101 the Sixes chambered in 38 SPL only have a different chamber. The rest of the revolver {steel, strength, heat treat, etc.] is the same as the 357 magnum Sixes. BTW I shoot the same level 357 magnum loads in my Security Six as I've shot in many BHs. Such loads would soon rattle a M19 K-frame apart which is why S&W came out with the L-frame. The Sixes, SP101s and L-Frames are all comparable in strength regardless whether chambered in 38 SPL or 357 magnum. If they all can handle 357 Magnum loads then they can certainly handle 38/44 level loads.

[USSR]

...I remember back in the 70s-80s a Railroad Ballast inspector, walking the rails, came upon a live Grizzly back in Pennsylvania

Um, am I missing something here? There are no grizzly bears in Pennsylvania.

Don

[GregLaROCHE]

Maybe psychologically you would feel safe, and if the bear was starting to pull the meat off your bones, you could kill him with a shot or more to the head, but who wants things to come to that? Better over gunned than under, if there is a risk.

[Winger Ed.]

When encountering a bear----- don't look them in the eye. They hate that.:bigsmyl2:

[35remington]

After perusing the thread, one gets the impression that since he included a SP101 in the discussion the idea of using such a gun in 38 Special for black bear defense was not as bad an idea as many have made it out to be.

Certainly such a gun can throw a heavy enough bullet at high enough speed to penetrate well, and hit ability issues aside, that is a lot of what helps in such a situation.

Such an occurrence is a low likelihood event, but the firearm proposed (38 101) probably didn’t deserve the degree of reaction it got.

[W.R.Buchanan]

I work for a public school, if I worked in the oil fields this thread wouldn’t have happened. I’d just go buy me a Ruger Redhawk 44mag and not even think twice about it.

I take defensive handgun classes 3-4 times a year and shoot IDPA locally 3-4 times a month. I practice a few times a month (dry fire and live fire) rotating through my carry guns/positions/holsters/clothing. I like to stay sharp and prepared.

I took the SP101 on trade for a person that owed me money. I have always loved the look and feel of the SP101, so it was a win for me.

I am researching the Keith 38/44 load data, going to try some suggestions for loads in this thread and revived a few PMs with load suggestions. Hopefully will have some time in the next few days to hit the reloading room.

Why didn't you say that in the first place? Here I thought you were a Battle Hardened Roughneck that we could openly abuse.

It is good you know how to shoot. Generally when people put up posts like yours they are still trying to figure out which end the boolits come out of.

Since you do shoot often you can probably hit what you are aiming at, the .38 is better than nothing.BUT,,, It also it looks like you are good at Horse Trading so why not upgrade that Ruger .38 to a Ruger GP100/44. Those guns are .44 Specials but are strong enough to take anything you can put in one. You could easily get 1000 fps out of one and that's with a 260 gr boolit. The only reason I don't have one is because I have the S&W 696, but I have handled them alot, and they are great guns. Ruger made the GP44 because S&W stopped making the 696, and started making the M69 which is a similar L frame but will take .44 Mags. Not nearly as cool and they are still $1000+ guns

Granted, a well placed .38 is better than a miss with a .44, but a well placed .44 is better than a well placed .38 every day. And if you shot the GP44 in your IDPA shoots for a few months you'd wonder why you ever messed with the 38's, and you'd be able to dish out some real HP! (Horse Power not Hollow Points).

Also the prospect of using these loads in your 20" Marlin 1894 CB Short Rifle would come into play and carrying that in the great wide open with the 44 revolver would make you equal to just about any challenge including poorly outfitted Mexican Drug Mules running wild in your area.

All that said, you'll probably figure out what is best for you, and the wounds you've suffered in this thread will heal quickly.

Good Luck

Randy

''.38 HV (SPL) load for .38/44 Outdoorsman - The Firing Line Forums
https://thefiringline.com › forums › showthread
Feb 14, 2009 - Elmer Keith's original load for the . 38/44 was 13.5 grains of 2400 and the 173 grain Keith type bullet and standard primers. That is good for 1300 or so fps. If you back down to about 12 grains with the 158, that should give you the velocity range you are looking for and still be safe in your large frame* S&W.''

[Mr_Sheesh]

USSR - These are not the case I heard of. But... A quick search shows a few, 2 recent ones being:

https://channel45news.com/2017/06/grizzly-bear-confirmed-sighting-in-sullivan-county-pa/

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2044708/Pennsylvania-couple-attacked-bear-grizzly-wanders-home.html

Someone apparently hasn't told the bears that they aren't there?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fatal_bear_attacks_in_North_America shows stats.

Even if a bear doesn't kill you, one chomping on you and clawing you WOULD ruin your day, even tho you lived. That "desirable" to anyone here?

[cainttype]

Consider revisiting Outpost’s reply at the beginning of this thread... Look at the very end... He has a load listed for a 190 grain bullet.
Any person that has not TESTED 190-210 bullets in 38 Special revolvers has no idea what they are capable of, period.
The 38 Special, even in a snubby, is capable of a lot more than most people would ever believe when using heavies, especially in a strong snubby with loads similar to those posted by Outpost.
Anyone that hasn’t done the work simply doesn’t have a clue.

[ReloaderFred]

Attacks by black bears do occur:

https://www.ktuu.com/content/news/MAP-Fatal-Bear-Attacks-in-North-America-432734333.html

I live in bear country and we can't put our trash out the night before or the bears will spread it all over kingdom come. A few years ago my wife and I had a black bear encounter in the woods behind our house. The bear laid in wait for us, and then came up out of the brush about 20 yards away and did what is known as "posturing", which means he walked slowly back and forth in front of us, rolling his head to look at us over his shoulder. It's known as "marking his territory". We backed off and after about 15 minutes of this, he went over the side of the ridge. We waited about 10 minutes to make sure he was gone, but he was laying in the shoulder high brush and came out again at about the same distance. We again slowly backed off and he went through his posturing routine all over again, slowly walking back and forth and rolling his head to look at us.

The only gun we had with us was my Model 59, but the ornerier the bear got, the smaller the gun got. All in all, that bear kept us out there on the ridge for about 30 minutes in total. He had lost all fear of humans, which makes him a dangerous bear.

When I talked to the Game Trooper about it, he told me to take a 12 gauge loaded with slugs and put that bear down. He'd issue a depredation permit after the fact, since I'd already told him about the bear.

My wife has had several encounters with bears while walking the dogs, but they usually run off after she uses her air horn that she carries on her belt. She also carries a Detective Special, but that's mostly for coyotes and other thin skinned critters that might go after her dogs. Last year, a neighbor lost her small dog to coyotes while she was walking it on a leash. They attacked it while she was walking it, but she was able to run them off after kicking and screaming at them, but her dog didn't make it.

Living in the woods gives you new insight into what's out there, just like the cougars that tried to get another neighbor's dogs. We live among them, and unless we're prepared, our perch at the top of the food chain can be contested.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

7 "BEAR" attacks in USA in less than 30 days (during hunting season 2018).

https://www.ammoland.com/2018/10/a-flurry-of-bear-attacks-fall-2018/#axzz69YKAR1k3

the article also states the common sense that others may disagree with...

Bear attacks are relatively rare, but in bear country, they are more common than being hit by lightning.

[HATCH]

This thread has run its course.