How tight?

[seetrout]

How tight should a RB and patch be in my flintlock? Even on a clean barrel the RB and patch are tight to the point I have to smack the Short starter several times to get it started in the barrel. It loads relatively easy from there, but should it be that tight?
I also found the curvature of the short starter does not match the curvature of the ball and I was getting rings cut into the ball until I wrapped a ball in a piece of fine sandpaper and "fixed" it. At 50 yds it didn't seem to hurt accuracy much, but at 100 if the damage wasn't centered on the ball they really took off in all directions.

[NSB]

They don't need to be that tight. It's somewhat common knowledge that the spru should be centered on top when using the ball starter. The damage/spru should always be oriented the same way shot-to-shot to avoid the flyers you're talking about. Your patch/ball needs to be tight enough to have the rifling imprint itself on the ball surface...that's what gives it its spin. Try some different material and see if you can find something a bit thinner.

[vagrantviking]

As long as you aren't talking about smacking with a hammer or hurting your hand this isn't abnormal. Though I do know several people who do use a hammer with their short starter for target shooting. They claim they get better accuracy and that may be true in their individual guns.

It depends on what you want the experience to be too. Serious about trying anything for the best targets, casual and easygoing shooting on a trailwalk or wandering in the woods, easy loading for a speed event...

[Gtek]

Knowing the actual bore/groove, ball and material diameters and thickness can really help. Winging it I would say mic patch and go a couple thousandths thinner (=x2). A little more info on rifle and caliber may help if someone has gone before with one like it.

[John McCorkle]

Knowing the actual bore/groove, ball and material diameters and thickness can really help. Winging it I would say mic patch and go a couple thousandths thinner (=x2). A little more info on rifle and caliber may help if someone has gone before with one like it.So I've pushed sinkers though a breech loader but how do you slug a muzzy?

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[seetrout]

It's a Lyman GPR .54. Until I get a RB mold I'm using a box of Hornady .530 swaged and the TC pillow ticking patches. My LGS also has the patches that do not have the blue stripes common to pillow ticking. I can't find patch thickness on the packaging for either patches although the prices are different.

[LAGS]

I have slugged M/L's different ways.
One being to pull the breech plug and then slug the barrel by pounding a lead slug thru the bore and out the other end.
But that is a lot of work and most people can't or shouldn't pull the breech plug.
I only do it that way if there is a reason to pull the breech plug , like rebarreling a rifle.
The other way I do it , and it works fairly good is to do a casting with Cerosafe in the muzzle.
I make up a bolt with a washer /gasket on the end by the head of the bolt.
I insert it into the muzzle with the threaded end sticking a couple inches out of the muzzle.
I then pour the section between the end of the barrel and the gasket / washer stopper on the bolt in the barrel with molten Cerosafe.
When cooled , I use a section of pipe that is smaller than the barrel outside diameter , with the inside diameter is larger than the bore diameter.
You put the pipe over the protruding bolt and install a nut and washer onto the bolt and a washer or steel plate that is larger than the section of pipe.
You just tighten down the nut on the bolt.
With the pipe spacer , the bolt will pull straight out of the barrel with the casted material on it.
I did do a similar method and used Epoxy for the casting material instead of Cerosafe.
But when using Epoxy , be sure you put a release agent like Johnson's past wax in the barrel before you do the epoxy.
Hope this helped.

[megasupermagnum]

I slugged mine by first putting in a 3/8" brass rod about 6" long, then tapping an oversize bullet in. I then shook the barrel to hammer the bullet back out. You only get the muzzle end measurement this way, that should be little concern for muzzle loading purposes.

I've always heard the super tight fitting loads are what it takes for the absolute best in accuracy. I found I couldn't get a tight load that didn't also tear the patch.

[fiberoptik]

Mic the thickness of patch snugging up mic. Go ta a fabric store with mic & pencil [emoji3579]. Look for “all natural” materials. Pillow ticking, linen, 100% cotton cloth that mics just under by a couple thou. Buy some, pencil thickness on end of bolt. Try a few. See what works best for you. Once you have the right one, go back and buy a few yards and you’ll be set for a while. Keep track what works best for you.


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[rfd]

depends on the kinda accuracy and ease of loading (or not!) you require.

typically, the target folks have a need for tight balls and the rest are satisfied with some manner of loose balls.

patch thickness, ball diameter, patch lube, are the prime variables ... along with the powder type, granulation, and charge, and if powder compaction is part of yer loading regimen.

none of this matters what others think or are doing. this is subjective stuff and up to you and no one else.

there are no real rules and experimentation will be mandatory if you have some manner of aforementioned requirements.

[waksupi]

I won't shoot a combination that needs a short starter. Not necessary.

[hpdrifter]

It all depends on intended use......hunting/target.
Faster rifling might require a tighter patch.
Higher velocity might require a tighter patch
Main idea is to not "strip" the lands during firing.
Some rifles/rifling might be just the opposite.

It's kind of a shoot and see proposition.
I find a good snug fit is fine for all my needs.....hunting accuracy at 50-100 yards with medium charge; 85 or so grains.

[John McCorkle]

It all depends on intended use......hunting/target.
Faster rifling might require a tighter patch.
Higher velocity might require a tighter patch
Main idea is to not "strip" the lands during firing.
Some rifles/rifling might be just the opposite.

It's kind of a shoot and see proposition.
I find a good snug fit is fine for all my needs.....hunting accuracy at 50-100 yards with medium charge; 85 or so grains.I would think you'd want better accuracy while hunting even then while target shooting though...why wouldn't you have the same load and loading procedure for target and hunting?

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[rfd]

I won't shoot a combination that needs a short starter. Not necessary.

neither will i ... and that's the personal subjectivity thing about muzzleloader loads. to each their own.

[fiberoptik]

I would think you'd want better accuracy while hunting even then while target shooting though...why wouldn't you have the same load and loading procedure for target and hunting?

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If it’s so tight you have to bash it down, target [emoji457] style, you slow reloads.


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[John McCorkle]

If it’s so tight you have to bash it down, target [emoji457] style, you slow reloads.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkOh no doubt but I've never had a second shot on deer ever...once the first bang goes off they hit the trail. Even with an autoloader it's tough to get sights back down for a well placed shot.

I do have to say though I hunt in very thick woods in Louisiana where there are plenty of places for deer to run into and hide...not open land or field. My experience may be different than some or most

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[seetrout]

As is, at 50 yds, off the bags it will cut cloverleafs, but it seems like it's too tight if I'm damaging the ball. I did kill a deer with it here a week ago on a special hunt. I swung on a fast walker, but stopped swinging the rifle and shot behind. 2 others broke off and circled back around. I wasn't done reloading yet, but my Uncle was with me and got a shot at 1 and they circled around again. I shot at the first one, but flashed in the pan, re-primed and put a ball through the heart of the 2nd one.

[seetrout]

Mic the thickness of patch snugging up mic. Go ta a fabric store with mic & pencil [emoji3579]. Look for “all natural” materials. Pillow ticking, linen, 100% cotton cloth that mics just under by a couple thou. Buy some, pencil thickness on end of bolt. Try a few. See what works best for you. Once you have the right one, go back and buy a few yards and you’ll be set for a while. Keep track what works best for you.


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I think I will look for some thinner patch material and see what happens.

[Tatume]

I think I will look for some thinner patch material and see what happens.

Walk in front of your shooting position and pick up some of your fired patches.

If they are cut by the rifling, your combination is too tight. Consider a slightly smaller ball or a thinner patch.

If they are burned through, either your patches are too thin or you need some sort of wad. A little bit of hornet's nest will prevent burning; usually a single piece of "paper" will suffice. One jug hornet nest is probably a lifetime supply. Be aware that it will hatch in the spring or when you bring it indoors to a warm house. You can sterilize it with hornet spray.

253574

If your patches are intact, and show rifling marks, your patches are working.

Take care, Tom

[GregLaROCHE]

Here’s a video by Hickok45 with that rifle and you can see how much force he uses to load the ball.
https://youtu.be/QZCVQMEwlT0

[megasupermagnum]

Oh no doubt but I've never had a second shot on deer ever...once the first bang goes off they hit the trail. Even with an autoloader it's tough to get sights back down for a well placed shot.

I do have to say though I hunt in very thick woods in Louisiana where there are plenty of places for deer to run into and hide...not open land or field. My experience may be different than some or most

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I don't want to steal the thread, but not once a deer just standing there? I thought hard about shooting two this year muzzleloading. I shot one with the rifle at 40 yards, and another just stood there at 30. I had the scout pistol right on it. In the end I decided not to, as we had shot 4 does, no need for more.

Even as I was reloading the rifle, a third deer stood there for about 15 seconds. I doubt you could ever get a shot at a deer, reload, and get a second shot. I don't even consider reloading speed for hunting. If you use a sxs, or carry multiple guns, you can definitely get more than one. Just don't move after the shot, once they see you, they split.

It's worth noting the land I hunt sees plenty of human activity, although minimal hunting pressure. There is shooting from most neibors all year too. The deer do not give a second thought to gunfire. If you hunt heavily pressured deer, your experiences may differ.

[John McCorkle]

I don't want to steal the thread, but not once a deer just standing there? I thought hard about shooting two this year muzzleloading. I shot one with the rifle at 40 yards, and another just stood there at 30. I had the scout pistol right on it. In the end I decided not to, as we had shot 4 does, no need for more.

Even as I was reloading the rifle, a third deer stood there for about 15 seconds. I doubt you could ever get a shot at a deer, reload, and get a second shot. I don't even consider reloading speed for hunting. If you use a sxs, or carry multiple guns, you can definitely get more than one. Just don't move after the shot, once they see you, they split.

It's worth noting the land I hunt sees plenty of human activity, although minimal hunting pressure. There is shooting from most neibors all year too. The deer do not give a second thought to gunfire. If you hunt heavily pressured deer, your experiences may differ.Not once. It may happen one day but I e never seen a group of deer not take off after the shot....

Actually now that I think of it I did once, but it was a yearling that I didn't even think about shooting. I shot a buck out of a herd and the yearling walked right up to me after I'd gone over to inspect the deer. It prob would have licked me had I not chased it off, but i wasn't thinking of it as a meat doe so I didn't think of it earlier. But for full bodied deer they all have hit the woods pretty swift... almost got a second shot on one that tripped over itself trying to run away in mud...but it was a running shot and I didn't want to risk wounding it.

I'll have to grab a few pics of the land we hunt though, it's rather remote with little human activity...and it's thick...I mean thick. So two steps and they are gone.

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[hpdrifter]

I would think you'd want better accuracy while hunting even then while target shooting though...why wouldn't you have the same load and loading procedure for target and hunting?

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If that's the case, every rifle would be a hunting rifle that you used for target shooting. Not so.

Target rifles are meticulously built, only the most AR type people require target accuracy for hunting. Minute of pie plate usually suffices. Of course, you strive for as much accuracy as you can muster, but the X ring on a deer is much bigger than the X ring on a target.

[seetrout]

So I've done some research and some measuring. The blue stripe, pre-lubricated, pillow ticking patches are spec'd as 17.5 thousandths and the plain white ones are supposed to be .015. I measured the blue stripes that I have and came up with .022. I was going to buy some of the white ones, but decided to wait until I could cast up some RB using the mold my wife bought me for christmas...maybe they would be slightly smaller than the Hornady swaged balls. Less than 1 grain difference and almost identical in size too. I asked her to look through her fabric scraps and she found some sturdy cotton fabric that feels like pillow ticking and mikes at .015. I would like to try some of that before I go buy a pack of the white ones. I have a tube of bore butter that I want to use up. Should I just saturate some of the patch material with that or mix some lard 50/50 with beeswax and go au-naturale?

[rfd]

i don't pay too much attention to "rated patch thickness" because there are no specific standards for how to measure that thickness with regards to the measuring tool used and how to use that tool. what works best for me is to get test swatches from fabric stores and do the actual lube, load, shooting real world meaningful testing ... then stock up on the fabric that works best.

[longcruise]

i don't pay too much attention to "rated patch thickness" because there are no specific standards for how to measure that thickness with regards to the measuring tool used and how to use that tool. what works best for me is to get test swatches from fabric stores and do the actual lube, load, shooting real world meaningful testing ... then stock up on the fabric that works best.

That works for me too. There are factors involved other than thickness too.