Old E

[ian45662]

How many OE shooters do we have in here? I tried some for a while and it shot ok. I went to Swiss and my scores improved. That case is now almost gone. I bought a pound of OE a couple months ago just to try. 1.5 specifically. I made a few different loads to try and much to my surprise the OE out shot my favorite Swiss load. I said I wouldn’t buy anymore but I am really thinking about getting a case of OE. What kind of compression is everyone Running? I was expecting to need to use heavy compression but my lowest compression shot the best so I will make a few more loads with less powder and see where that gets me.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191222/5588ae25a9808a965308f2ff3f163ed7.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[rfd]

considering the problems with certain lots of swiss, it appears that quality BP these dayze can be hit or miss - pun intended.

[ian45662]

That was my initial thought with trying the OE again. I know there are some other shooters that really like it. I feel like my loading abilities have improved since I tried it last so maybe it’s time to give it another whirl.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[country gent]

Ive had good results with OE in 38-55 up to 45-90. Granulation depends on the cartridge somewhat. I usually end up around .080-.110 compression to get where I want to be. foulinf isn't to bad when the right compression is Found for the load.

O chronograph when working loads up and watch ES and SD, along with velocity. I start with no compression no air space and shoot for groups watching the numbers. also the fouling. I then work up in 2 grn increments to where the SD and es are lowest froups re the best and velocity is in the range Im looking for.

I can get single digit ES with old ensford even in the big cases

[Gunlaker]

I think it is pretty good. Almost as good as Swiss :-). Seriously though, with PP loads in various rifles it has always had extremely tight core groups for me, but always one or two ugly fliers in a 10 shot group. With Swiss I don't get those weird flyers.

With that said, I did buy another case to mess with :-)

Chris.

[rfd]

as a result of the latest folly with Swiss lots, i put no faith in any BP consistency from any BP manufacturer.

yes ... it's hit or miss, no more or less. GOOD black powder is not cheap. we spend a LOT of buck$ expecting to get what we pay for. that kind of thinking has been busted, as is proofed by the black powder offered by all within the last decade or so. and i'm not the only BP loader/shooter to complain about the lack of consistent BP manufacturing quality.

today, it's a matter of pure luck to acquire a consistent lot of any brand of BP. that is, IF there is such a thing as a "consistent lot", which might have been true in the past, but surely doesn't seem so these dayze. add to this, i'm talking the typical minimal 25# shipment that most of buy, not a measly pound or two.

[ian45662]

The recent complaint about Swiss have really made me nervous about jumping into another case. I figure I could just get a case of OE and try it for a season. If after 6 or 7 shoots I can’t get any good scores then I will hit the Swiss although this past season I really never did put up any great scores but at just only a couple of matches.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Lead pot]

I think it is pretty good. Almost as good as Swiss :-). Seriously though, with PP loads in various rifles it has always had extremely tight core groups for me, but always one or two ugly fliers in a 10 shot group. With Swiss I don't get those weird flyers.

With that said, I did buy another case to mess with :-)

Chris.

Chris,

When I see occasional fliers and I don't think that it's so much the powder doing this if the rest are tight. Something else is going on.
When I suspect it's the powder is when the groups open from golf ball to soft ball sized patterns of the same lot and I cannot the ladder loads tight again.
On average over the years except for the last two years do to some health problems I shot 4 cases plus of powder a year. The last two years I barely empty two cases. Last year less than two.
Over the years I tried just about every type of powder, Elephant, Dupont, GOEX, Olde Eynsford, Diamondback, Skirmish, FA, Swiss, Schuetzen and KIK black powder and all will give me the occasional dirt diggers. I blame it on the Gremlin behind my shoulder :)

I just finished the last lot of Swiss and I don't think I will get another case. The fouling that I saw dribbling out like a dozer pushing dirt of the muzzle pushing a patch through I don't see using OE or KIK for that matter.
I don't see any benefit spending the extra $110. a case over the OE.
Kurt

[rfd]

hands down, Swiss was the best for the longest time and rightly so. but it appears times have changed.

i don't might paying more and getting more, but paying more and getting less gets old fast.

i hope that Swiss and Co. are smart enuf to listen to their customer base. time will tell ....

[415m3]

My local shop only carries Goex or OE, and I much prefer OE in the Trapdoor and the C&B revolvers. I find it much cleaner

[Randy Bohannon]

Works good in everything I’ve tried. Most recent load development,didn’t take much ‘development’ just good technique.

[John Boy]

Like Leadpot, I too have shot nearly every brand of powder made: DuPont - Diamondback - (Goex, Cowboy, Cartridge) - Austin Curtis's & Harvey - Olde Eynsford - Express - KIK - Meteor - Schuetzen - Skirmish and Swiss
* The powders that I gave up on Diamondback, Express and Olde Eynsford, Goex and Goex Cowboy
* The powders that have the charcoal made from Alder Buckthorn, the best wood for making charcoal which makes the better powder are: Curtis's & Harvey, KIK - Meteor - Schuetzen and Swiss
* All Goex brands of powder are made from sub contracted yellow maple
* Best powder ever was Curtis's & Harvey, made in Ardeer, Scotland and so was Meteor which I tested against the Austin Curtis's & Harvey for velocity, fouling, density and mesh grain ratio distribution. I am led to believe Meteor was either made from left over C&H or the same process and formulation
* I've reduced my Ole E and Swiss down to 2.5 and 11 cans respectively
* The most powder now in inventory are Goex Cartridge - Meteor and KIK, which unfortunately are now obsolete powders


An example of KIK: 50 rounds of 38-55 shot consecutively for accuracy at Ridgway from 200m to 500m with no patching or tubing. Then cleaned the bore with one water cotton ball and 3 dry cotton balls resulting in a very faint amount of foul remaining. My settings were just a few MOA's off my normal settings

[ian45662]

Me and a friend went out and shot some Old E at some silhouettes and it went much better than I expected. I am getting a bunch this week. Hit 13 out of 15 turkeys. The 2 misses were my fault. Came up to the rams and didn’t miss out if 10 shots. Vertical stringing that had plagued me in the 2019 shooting season with the Swiss was completely gone yesterday. I am excited to see what this will bring.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[country gent]

I have had good results across the range of BPPCR rounds I loaf with Olde Ensforde in several granulations. I get very low standard Deviations and extreme Spreads with it. It seem to be fairly consistent with new batches bought. I have found experimenting with compression is a plus with Olde Ensforde. When working with a new cartridge or rifle, I start at no air space no compression ( just the charge dropped in thru 3' tube) and work up in 2 grn increments, watching ES and SD numbers. Also velocity. I usually end up around .090 compression where numbers get the best and velocity is where I want it to be

[Hahndorf1874]

What is the US equivalent of Wano P & 2 P, Have found it shot equal to Swiss 1.5 in my 40/65 Roller.


Cheers Mal.

[ian45662]

Took a little time but I think I found a load. This was 10@200. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200610/0f46241e03e1a98ea8af70cb0f54a392.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Lead pot]

Looks good! What calibre ?

Someday the powder shooters will give this OE a go. But Shhhhh don't let the secret out or the competition will really get rough :)
Kurt

[ian45662]

[emoji13]. 45/70


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Lead pot]

Very good ian.
Now get that what I call fat fingering ( the left oblique vertical group) and the last second shoulder push when you let the shot go, those holes will be even tighter.

[John Boy]

But Shhhhh don't let the secret out or the competition will really get rough
Kurt - what makes it 'better' is Minden for their mix of Old E doesn't follow the industry standards for ratios of different grades:
Olde E FFg:
20 mesh - 62.81% Hold
30 mesh - 32.32% Hold
40 mesh - 04.27% Hold
50 mesh - 00.60% Hold
60 mesh - Trace
4.27% 40 mesh in a FFg grade? [smilie=s:
If Swiss did these ratios - their FFG would be almost Null-B powder :popcorn:

[Lead pot]

John,

I have no idea what null-B powder is and I don't screen my powder.
What I have done once was put partley empty cans of 1.5,2 and 3F OE in a coffee can and mixed it to use for blowing out .44 basic cases necked down to the .44-90bn to blow the shoulders out and shot at a 200 yard target. After 100 rounds through that target made me to reload those fire formed cases again and I took them as well as a second rifle to a silhouette match and after getting sight settings I was convinced to use that mix of powder loads and shoot the match using it. I finished with a 29 and a 10 Turkey pin when it was over.
That makes me wonder if worrying about fines in the powder is just a waste of time.

[Distant Thunder]

I, for one, have not given up on Swiss (1 1/2). That powder has won many matches for me over the past 20 years and up until some time in 2013 was very consistent lot to lot.

This past winter I did a fair amount testing of Swiss 1 1/2 in my .40-65 with a 382 grain paper patch bullet. I concluded that while the lot to lot consistency may be gone the potential for outstanding accuracy is still there if you take the time to look for it.

This 10-shot group was shot at 200 meters this past winter from the bench with my scoped .40-65. I still need to test with more and less compression to see if this IS the sweet spot, but this load has shot very consistently in my somewhat limited testing.

263474

As a control group for comparison this group was shot the same day, the same way with the lot of Swiss I have been shooting for the past few years. I have won more matches with my old lot than I can remember using both my .45-70 and my .40-65. Two different lots of Swiss 1 1/2 from the same year of production, note the compression difference between the two.

263475

So yes, I would buy another case of Swiss 1 1/2 or even 2F, but I would know going into it that I would have to do just what I always did before I discovered Swiss 1 1/2. Just like I use to do with Goex 2F, buy a case or two and spend the time finding out what compression worked best. It likely won't be the same as the last lot! It could even require a different primer. Load development, load development, very important. You just have to start over again from scratch with each new lot.

[ian45662]

My best groups (and scores) have been from Swiss. I had a lot that was in the middle of what people were saying were bad lots but it did very well for me. I just thought I would really sit down and see if this OE would do as well. I will have to shoot it for an entire season to be sure but so far there does seem to be more fouling and the OE1.5 is slower than the Swiss 1.5


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Distant Thunder]

Ian,

You can test all you want, that's a good thing and I appreciate you posting your results. If there is another powder that can deliver good or better accuracy I want to know about it especially if it is priced lower than Swiss, which ain't cheap.

It just seems that some of those lots of Swiss 1 1/2 that were said to be bad may benefit from more compression and a little load development. I'd like to hear from anyone else who may have tried more compression and what resulted.

So I'll get off the Swiss and listen to your findings with OE.

[Don McDowell]

I'm always curious what the back room talk is when the occasional shooter shows up shooting OE and beats a handful of shooters using Swiss... One time it's said that one of those Swiss shooters got home demanding his rifle be rebarreled......

[Lead pot]

OE will hold it's own without a problem. It is no different working up a load with Swiss and OE. The right person behind the butt plate with the skills to handle the rifle.

[Don McDowell]

Yup absolute fact

[Old-Win]

Jim and Kurt, after our discussion last August at Harris, I started this spring with a new to me batch of Swisspowder with both my 45-70 and my 45-90. I'm using a 2014 batch of powder and started out going the opposite direction I normally go. I reloaded the first test rounds by weight as the 2014 powder is less dense than my old batch of powder. Neither rifle likes that much compression very well so I went back to loading like I always do between .030" and .050" compression. The 45-70 is shooting fantastic and the 45-90 isn't far behind but it does have a little vertical. I'll be taking it to Big Hill in 2 weeks and hope that it doesn't show up on the targets. I wish I had more time to continue working but it's time to start putting loads together. I did buy 16 pounds of 2013 Swiss from my buddy Mike after he came down with Huntington's. I'm going to try that after we get back from Big Hill. It was good enough that it got him seventh place at the Quigley and he only missed one sit down target but he was shaking so bad in the offhand that he only hit two there.
On a different note, if anybody knows where there's a fairly good supply of Elephant powder that I could pick up somewhere out west, I'd appreciate knowing about it. I'm looking for 2000 2F Elephant or newer. Velocity may not be everything but it sure shoots well in my 38-50.

[John Boy]

if anybody knows where there's a fairly good supply of Elephant powder that I could pick up somewhere out west, I'd appreciate knowing about it.

Source for Diamondback (Elephant) powder ... https://www.addictedtoblackpowder.com/product/

[Lead pot]

Hi Bob, I hope you do well at the Hill. I just cant get away to make that shoot this year. It's one of my favorite.
My eyes are going down hill fast you saw this at the last Lodi match when you helped me get the sight settings when I switched from the tang to the scope in the middle of the match and I really want to thank you for doing that for me. Harris was the final straw that broke the Camels back for me trying to shoot a match with the irons. I hope Harris will be on later this summer.

I haven't used Elephant for many years because it just didn't perform well. I messed around with it some by adding some medical grade potassium nitrate to see if I could get a better burn and it helped a little but not enough to stay with it. Lately I seen posts that it's doing well for some but I don't know where they are getting it.

I haven't seen any reports of the latest Swiss lot but my last two lots 04/05/2015 and 26/02/2018 did not impress me. The OE I used at the Quigley in the .45-90 lot E1-09/19JU24b held me pretty high finish. I also used it at the MT 1000 the year before that put me in 3rd place using the .45-90 so for now I'm sticking with the OE and I might not go back using Swiss.

I haven't shot any of the 1.5 OE over the chronograph to see what the ES and SD look like but the vertical through the paper is flatline in the .44-77 and the .45-100 I been shooting this year mostly here at home.

Shoot well........Kurt

[Old-Win]

Thanks Kurt. I know what you mean about the eyes. My apertures keep be getting bigger every year.

[Old-Win]

Source for Diamondback (Elephant) powder ... https://www.addictedtoblackpowder.com/product/

John, with just a quick look at that website, I only found cannon powder available in limited supplies. I'll have to go back later when I have more time and look a little closer. I did not know that Diamondback is now the old Elephant plant. IIRC, I thought I remember seeing that the old Elephant plant was torn down due to expansion

[ian45662]

I just went to test these loads on some sillywets. Specifically turkeys. I am very satisfied with how things are going. A couple weeks ago at my first match of the season I shot the OE 1.5 for the first time in a match. It didn’t go so well. I was starting to worry actually. The fouling which was great in the cooler months was becoming an issue in the warmer weather. Well after the match I started hitting the range to see what was going on and how to fix it. Keeping the same powder charge and adding an extra wad cut my ES in more than half and made some nice groups. I switched up my wiping a little also. I went from the gophers with 50/50 Preston RV antifreeze Over to 7:1 Napa oil and I revisited the baco wipers. I tried the brushes with the Napa oil and got a 6” group for 10 shots. The baco wipers for whatever reason cut those groups way down also. Not exactly sure which thing I did.... I am inclined to think that it may have been a combination of the 2 or 3 or whatever but after today I am very confident. We have another match in 2 weeks. I feel feel really good about it and I will he sure to post the scores. [emoji1696][emoji1696][emoji1696]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Gunlaker]

Ian my .45-90 with Dan T's bore diameter PP chamber also worked much better when using two wads with OE 1.5. With Swiss 1.5 a single 0.060" LDPE wad works best. With OE 1.5 I need 2 LDPE wads or it would gas cut which also showed up on the chronograph as a crappy SD. Interestingly Kenny W's 3 wad stack ( veg + LDPE + felt ) worked very well with OE 1.5 in the .45-90.

Chris.

[Don McDowell]

Fouling control, fouling control, fouling control,,
I still have a couple of cans of the really nasty dirty Elephant powder. With the BACO bore wipe system I'm wondering now if maybe that stuff could be made to shoot some whizzbang groups?

[ian45662]

It was either the extra .060” of compression, the baco wipers or the water and oil but something was making it work.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Lead pot]

Ian I think your starting to see something....maybe.....2 wads the results are improving over one wad. What is the second wad doing ? sealing the bore and keeping the gas behind the bullet instead of leaking past with one wad. A .06" wad is hard and won't expand enough in the initial pressure build up when it's still in the case neck in the chamber causing uneven pressure behind the bullet. With a GG bullet with the proper diameter of the ogive making firm contact in the throat will improve the gas seal keeping the vertical down and also aligning the bullet in the bore if you don'r use tight neck tension.
A PP bullet that seated out farther and of proper fit to the bore will act like a breach seated bullet that is in the bore with out runout keeping it from uneven change of the lead flow causing unbalance. Also the lube wad helps to seal the bore and you can get by using just one wad but two softer .03" is better than one .06" from what I see on recovered undamaged bullets.
The reason beltfed/Arnie that posts here uses a DDPP bullet he developed for his used Buffalo Armes is starting to make moulds from his designs that does just what is needed, sealing the bore quicker holding the gas back with the larger base diameter PP bullet. It acts more like a GG bullet that is groove diameter but the benefit of having the paper jacket keeping the lead off the bore holding accuracy.
Kurt

[Distant Thunder]

Kurt,

An excellent job explaining one of the benefits of Arnie's 2-D PPB design in grease groove chambers! They do work very well. It's not just the bigger base of his design, his version of the elliptical bullet is well thought out for transonic velocities and he keeps the length to what the twist rate can optimally stabilize. His bullet designs will prove to be very good performers. Well thought out.

[ian45662]

My theory ( and I have no idea if it’s true) is pretty much what your saying. The extra wad is helping the bullet stay sealed while it bumps up. The Swiss loads I have shot in this rifle shot well with just the 1 wad but maybe that is because the Swiss was a hotter powder. It is interesting to say the least. Now..... let me add something else. I shot 17 rounds through my cpa with OE 1.5 loads that I made before trying the 2 wad load in the shiloh. After I got on the animal out of 13 shots I had 2 misses one of which I know was my fault. The other was probably missed condition but they were grouping very well. This cpa has a chamber that is very similar to my c sharps highwall which I think is similar to the browning bpcr rifles. It has a 12.5 degree transition from the end of the case right into the rifling. I am going to do more testing with the cpa and see what it will do. In 2 weeks I will shoot the Shiloh and if the cpa shoots like it did again at another practice then I will probably take it to alma in July for their big shoot and see what happens with it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Lead pot]

All my CPA rifles and change barrels have tight chambers for the PP only cut with my reamers. They will not except a DDPP bullet. Today I was looking through the Buffalo Arms web site at .44 PP bullet moulds and I see there is one of Arnies DDPP moulds for the .44. My Shiloh Farmer has a loose chamber that needs the case neck sized down to put a little friction on the bore diameter bullet so I will order one of Arnies design .44's but I have to make a change on the bore section it being .433". That makes it a little hard push to chamber the round even using .0015" thick paper I don't like to use for a .004" deep groove barrel. I use .0018" the thinnest and .002"paper.
The .443 base I can change pushing it through a die if I need to do this.
I like the blunter ball nose and shorter ogive radius compared to the shank that bullet has.........Just what I need......another mould. :) .....Kurt

[Chill Wills]

Quote from and old source - On a different note, if anybody knows where there's a fairly good supply of Elephant powder that I could pick up somewhere out west, I'd appreciate knowing about it. I'm looking for 2000 2F Elephant or newer. Velocity may not be everything but it sure shoots well in my 38-50.
« Reply #1 on: November 18, 2011, 06:28:51 AM »
Not much of that floating around in the system. Last week I looked at how much of it has been brought into the U.S.
I had looked at a sample of the second shipment into the U.S. Was not allowed to check the first shipment and opted out of the third shipment.
I don't know if the importer, Diamondback Chemical, is still in business. They were located close to me at Tamaqua, Pa. This Diamondback Chemical Company was a subsidiary of Copperhead Chemical Company. This Copperhead Chemical Company produced medicinal nitroglycerin products. The plant was formerly owned by ICI and before that it was an Atlas Powder dynamite plant.
The Diamondback Black Powder came in from Brazil. A BP plant built around 2003 or 2004 using machinery pulled out of the old Elephant plant after it had been shut down in 2001.
E. Ogre " End Quote
**********************************

I like the old Elephant powder too. The earlier than 2000 production was nothing worth having but the lots 25/99 would shoot. Too bad they just got the hang of making good powder and they went out of business. It was not the best for mid and longrange work as the velocity was low but it did produce great accuracy and I could make it work best by going to the next size case (45-90 V 45-70). I still have some and like it for BP Schuetzen matches in my 38-55.263536
I have no way to know but I can guess that the newer Diamondback made in a new location by new people with different source components may not resemble the good 25/99 lots of Pachyderm Powder.

In those days I was buying it for $125 a case in person. Very useful for the price!

[Chill Wills]

The only case of Olde Eynsford powder I have experience with is 2F and acts like it wanted to shoot but never would group without throwing a flyer every 5 or so shots. I hear that some lots are better than others. This was one of the earlier production lots. I had been given some sample cans to try and I was favorably impressed. I asked for the same lot as the samples and was told I would receive it but that did not happen, ....and you can't return BP. Live with it and eat the cost.

Maybe I'm not experienced enough to load and use this lot of Olde E. Or, maybe a different lot would shoot? I tried a lot of stuff and burned a third of a case working on it. I did step on it hard in my efforts to make something good out of it. Nada.

The two claims to fame the Swiss powder brought to the game in 2000 (late 1999) was
1) it shot well with great velocity and
2) as it turned out, lot to lot variations were little and easy to adjust to, and then you would be right back in the accuracy game.
Pricey but well worth not having to burn half a case of GOEX to find a load that might be almost as accurate as Swiss was from the get go.

All this was good until sometime in the 2013 production. The excuse offered for the poor preforming lots was loss of the long time KNO3 supplier. Something about the dangers in Israel at this time. A second source was substituted. The Israeli supplier was able to deliver again sometime in 2017. During the substituted KNO3 period, powder lots were said to be "blended" if they did not meet some (?) standard. Very good lots have been in evidence between 2013 and 2017 to be sure. Also, some real stinkers exist. I am getting good reports from friends that the later cases they risked buying post 2018 production are shooting well again, however the density varies more than the old good powder pre 2013 and it may take a little more fooling around looking for the sweet spot.

-CW

[Distant Thunder]

You always need another mold! :bigsmyl2:

[Don McDowell]

I haven't noticed any difference in the lots of OE, and I've been shooting it since Jerry Dean called and said he could send me 2 lbs of the first case of it he got..
I do admit tho that I haven't got into the last case of 2f I picked up in late 2018, except for the rounds I loaded for Emily to shoot at Worland and Cheyenne. Judging by her scores at Worland I would venture that lot of powder is the same as the others as the load I used was the same one that rifle has liked since day one.
I shoot a lot more 1 1/2, and it hasn't changed either.

[Distant Thunder]

It could be that some OE would be worth trying in my .44-77 (a rifle I don't have) when and if I ever have one. I've given up on having it in time to do anything with for this year, which has been a total loss shooting wise anyway.
Which OE powder(s) would be best in the .44-77 with 500 to 530 grain paper patch bullets? 1 1/2 or 2F? Or both?

[Don McDowell]

1 1/2 with the heavy bullets. 2 with lighter.

[Lead pot]

:) Jim that would be like asking the Skippy peanut butter CEO which is better Skippy or Peter pan :)

I been shooting the old Shiloh Farmingdale with the generous chamber using 1.5, 2, and 3F OE ladder loads and the 2F has been the winner. But I mostly used a 514 gr Elliptical and I haven't had much time to try the other .44 bullets I use in the hunting rifle (the one you shot) yet.
75 gr with the 2F and 77gr with the 1.5. .012" craft paper wad over the powder and a 1/16" dance cork gasket under the bullet with 1/18 alloy. I have to use a softer alloy because the cork reduces the obturation a smidge.

Jim before you invest a bunch of money ordering the powder wait a while till the Rapids shoot and I will give you a can of 1.5, 2 and 3F to load some ladder loads so you can judge what will work for you.

I shot some outstanding 5 shot groups using 3F with the 514 gr elliptical to push it a little harder.

[Don McDowell]

I've been told OE 1f works well too, but I have not tried it,I do know it works extremely well in the 40-90 bn and 45 2 7/8. I found OE 3f to be way to fast to be of much use.
The long defunct Goex Cartridge is a very accurate powder in the 44-77 but the velocity is low and the fouling isn't acceptable after you've used OE.
I did try Schuetzen and Swiss 1f in the 44-77's and they both said without a doubt, don't ever feed us that stuff again... :)

[Distant Thunder]

I am surprised 3F works in that big of a case. I have used 3F Swiss and Goex in my .45-70 and .40-65 but never in anything bigger.

I figure if I buy some OE it would probably be late this year, but I would be interested in trying some if you can spare a can of each 2F and 1 1/2.

I'm really thinking that the phone has to ring any day now. The barrel went into the bluing line a month ago and it should take too much time to screw it back on the action. All the rest of the work, like tweaking the lever spring, should be done already i would think. Put the barrel on and ship it out.

I'm all ready to get started on this end, I just need a rifle!

[Bent Ramrod]

I’m not that great a competition shot (just proved it again this morning :mrgreen:), but I think my signal-to-noise ratio off the bench is good enough to draw conclusions from in load testing, anyway.

Haven’t had much success with anything but Swiss 1 and 1-1/2F with paper patch boolits in .38-55 and .45-70 straight wall cases. With grease groove boolits, 66gr of OE 1-1/2 shoots to the same elevation as 63 gr Swiss 1-1/2, in both my .45-70s, with no accuracy difference I can detect, at 600 yards.

I’ve tried 2 and 3F Swiss here and there, but haven’t found any noteworthy advantage in using it. Swiss is so quick even in the coarse granulations that extra burn speed doesn’t seem to matter, in my limited experimenting. I’ve mostly just played with the finer grain sizes in .32-40 and other small cases.

I’ve had no success with any Swiss in the .44-77 case with paper patch boolits, but OE 1F, at either 75 or 80 gr, shoots them great. Compressing the powder down into the neck and shoulder of the bottleneck case seems to be the key to success here; OE thrives on compression, while Swiss may tolerate it to a point and then turn on you. It certainly didn’t like it when I tried it in this case, and didn’t work well uncompressed, either.

I’ve only used OE and Swiss 1-1/2 in the .44 with light grease groove boolits for 200 M chicken loads; haven’t seriously tried any longer ranges, although I got a hit or two on Pigs shooting up some extra Chicken loads.

I've written up most of my experimental findings on this sub forum. I was hoping the competition between OE and Swiss would result in some price reductions, especially in Swiss, but they both seem to continue to rise like a bull market, Swiss ahead of OE. I would be interested in any observations on the densities of current lots of Swiss offered for sale; the low-density stuff I bought a couple years back seemed to be less reliable on target than previous lots. Didn’t keep lot number records; but it was the first stuff out with the pink label and no Matterhorn.

[Distant Thunder]

I have used several different lots of Swiss 1 1/2 over the years. Back when it was consistent I didn't really keep track of the lot numbers. At that time I was using it in my C. Sharps .45-70 for Creedmoor matches (800, 900 & 1000 yards). It always shot well and was very consistent from lot to lot.

I started with 74.0 grains under the Lyman Postell bullet (457132) and that rifle always liked that bullet and it really liked it with Swiss 1 1/2. It should be noted that that rifle has a 3/16" freebore which allows me to seat the Postell out with two driving bands exposed. So 74 grains was not a lot of compression, very little actually. In those days Swiss really wasn't supposed to like much compression, or so it was said. This load gave me 1226 fps out of my 34" barrel.

As time went on and I was trying hard to win a Creedmoor match I started loading more 1 1/2. While the accuracy was best at 74 to 75 grains it wasn't at all bad as I increased the compression and I got more velocity, which I wanted. I eventually got to 82.0 grains with about .300" compression and it still shot well. At 200 meters the 82 grain load would hold under 1 1/2" vertical and about 4" left to right. While the 74 grain load had only slightly more vertical but only 3" left to right. The 82 grain load gave me 1279 fps. Not quite the 1300 fps I wanted, but closer.

The 82 grain load with .300" compression shot good enough that I was able to win my first Creedmoor match in August of 2005 at Camp Grayling, Michigan. So the old lots of Swiss 1 1/2 didn't seem to mind more compression though many may have thought so at the time. I later figured out that 82 grains was actually just a second sweet spot that was there for those who looked for it. Compressing any powder that much has to be done carefully or you will bulge your cases. I don't recommend doing it.

Instead I found a better way to get more powder behind my bullets. I bought a Shiloh .45-90! That rifle changed my world for the better. I could load 85 grains of 1 1/2 Swiss and get over 1300 fps. It took me until 2009 to win my second Creedmoor match, this time at Lodi, WI. For that match I loaded 92 grain of the same lot of 1 1/2 (#250205) that I had been loading at 85 grains. It was a totally untested load but with Swiss it just didn't seem to matter, it still shot well enough to win the match.

That was the last match I shot with grease groove bullets, I jumped over to paper patch and never looked back. Only now I had to load 100 to 105 grains of 1 1/2 behind my bore diameter paper patch bullets. It didn't take long to realize I was burning through my good powder at a faster pace than I was comfortable with.

So when I built my Hepburn I had it chambered for the .45-70 with a Brent Danielson paper patch chamber. With the same bore diameter ppb that I had used in my .45-90 I was able to load 83 grains of Swiss 1 1/2. This gave me about 1290 fps. When I ran out of my good lot of Swiss I order more and it was of course a different lot. What I always did back then was I loaded the same 83 grains and just adjusted the compression to keep the same seating depth. That has always been more compression as Swiss was even then getting less dense with each new lot. When I bought the next bunch of 1 1/2, #040313, I just increased the compression a little and kept the same 83 grains by weight. It never missed a beat and I continued to do well at matches. I do believe I could improve the accuracy with this 2013 lot if I did some load development.

Then came lot #210113! Not mine but a friend's and he could not hit a barn from the inside with the door closed using that lot. So I got some from him. I loaded it in my .45-70 Hepburn just as I have always done, 83 grains and a little more compression. I could only just barely keep my shots on paper at 1000 yards while testing it. So with out getting up or moving I switched to my lot at 83 grains with two different bullets and put the next 6 shots inside the 10 ring and never touched the knobs, I just watched the conditions! Lot #210113 would just hold paper at 1000 yards with 83 grains and lot #040313 would hold the 10-ring at the same 83 grains (weighed)!

This fluffier 2013 Swiss didn't seem to work very well at all. Later in talking to other shooters I was told that with more compression it should shoot well. This winter I loaded it with 3/16" compression in my .40-65 and shot the 10-shot group I posted earlier in this thread. So the less dense Swiss 1 1/2 looks like it will shoot well with more compression, at least in some rifles. I still need to go back and test it in my Hepburn before I can say for sure. Others have found the same thing, more compression works.

My usual load in my .40-65 is 72 grains of 1 1/2 Swiss under a 2-diameter ppb. I had to go all the way to 76 grains to get the group I posted and I haven't really tested to see if 76 grains gives the best accuracy. So what I've been doing by holding to the same weight of Swiss 1 1/2 and compressing the fluffier powder more has apparently been going in the right direction. It's seems that with certain lots starting sometime in 2013 the weight has to be increased to get the accuracy and the compression is increased even more with it. At least it seems so in my limited experience. I have a few different lots I can test this thinking on and I hope to do so yet this summer.

So if you have some Swiss 1 1/2 that seems to not be the best there may still be hope for it with a little load development and you may have to give up on the idea that "Swiss doesn't like a lot of compression" like was said in the old days.

[Hahndorf1874]

Hi Guys interesting conversation,? Is schutzen Wano. I had vg results with 1 P grade Wano ,shot as good as any Swiss 1.5 if not better in my 40/65 target Roller, the F grade range of Wano would be only good for crackers.Maybe the Swiss I have is from the dodgy batches!!Most of the better shooters here in AU used to swear by Swiss, hasent been my experience to date.I definitely don’t class myself as a better shooter.

[Distant Thunder]

It sure seems that making black powder with a reasonable degree of consistency for an extended period of time is impossible, even today. If smokeless powder had the same problems with consistency shooters would be blowing up their rifles and themselves all the time.

It seems that Swiss was able to do it early on but has since lost the secret recipe. And nobody else has ever been able to do it. I don't mind some slight variations, but if you have to start all over from the ground floor with each new lot of XXX powder it's a bit of a PITA. It is what it is and the conversation does fill lots of forum pages and will give us a direction to go thanks to everyone's input.

I have enough of what has been a good lot of Swiss to last me a little while. I do have other lots of Swiss and I would like to see if they can be made to shoot as well as my old stuff. I'm also looking toward the future and what powder I need to put my limited money into, be it Swiss, OE, KIK or whatever. My suggestion to others based on what I have seen over the past 30 years is when you find a lot of whatever powder that works for you buy as much of it as you can because it won't be that way forever! I wish I had done that with Goex Cartridge or the old Swiss 1 1/2 from before 2013, but I did not.

Right now it's looking like OE 1 1/2 or 2F is a good choice, but I'd like to hear more from those using it. It would also help to see it listed at the top of the score sheet. Have any matches actually been won using OE? When and where? By whom?

I moved to Swiss 1 1/2 many years ago because a man who has won more matches than I could ever dream of told me that's what he used and he was right back then, but things change over time.

This is one of the reasons those PITA equipment lists that we sometimes are asked to fill out are so important. We need those lists to follow what works. That kind of documentation is far more valuable than forum posts, or at least requires list filtering.

[Lead pot]

I for one would like to see the KIK powder come back to life.

[John Boy]

I for one would like to see the KIK powder come back to life.
Kurt - I have 37 lbs of the 2010 shipment (F to 3F) left out of 3 cases [smilie=w:
Reload it judicially cause then never will be any more [smilie=s:

[Lead pot]

John, I have 15# of 1.5 and 8 of 2 saving it when the competition is rough or when all the other powder goes down the drain. LOL.

[shaune509]

Does any one have a decipher for the date/lot codes of both Swiss and GEOX?
I picked up 4# of Swiss 1 1/2 for $10 at an estate sale along with 17# smokeless and a Lee hand press for $100 total.
The Swiss date I think is 07 of 2013 of the Geox I have the code is not as clear, the 2 plastic bottles I would think are the newest but the metal cans I got last fall have what seems like a newer date. Of the 2 lines what is the date?
The C&H, ICI and Dupont flask can have no code/date but should be pre 1970.
Swiss code - 071.013
some Geox codes are - 03-85 /90ju18c [metal] and 02-96 / 17ma06b [plastic] and 02-41 / 09ma03b [newest metal] so 3 of 85 and 2 of 96 and ?
Shaune509

[Distant Thunder]

I believe the Swiss is October 7, 2013. The Goex I could only guess.

I know of one shooter using that lot of Swiss with very good results and I'm pretty sure he is using 3/16" compression. That is where the info about using more compression came from.

[Don McDowell]

:bigsmyl2: rumor has it the second best score fired at 600 yesterday in Cheyenne was some goof shooting a standard shiloh 45-70 with paper patch bullets and OE 2f, and loaded in Hornady cases to boot. :)

[Distant Thunder]

Well congratulations to some goof and his .45-70!

[Chill Wills]

:bigsmyl2: rumor has it the second best score fired at 600 yesterday in Cheyenne was some goof shooting a standard shiloh 45-70 with paper patch bullets and OE 2f, and loaded in Hornady cases to boot. :)

:bigsmyl2: Don, if I didn't know better I would say by your post, OE fired the "second best score fired at 600 yesterday" that makes it official, OE is the second best powder.
:bigsmyl2:

I guess that begs the question, what was the first best powder?
Wait, wait, ...I think I have some inside information on that answer. :bigsmyl2:

I hear the scores are posted over on Shiloh.
Michael Rix

[Don McDowell]

lol But that best score don't count cuz it was grease groove.

[Lead pot]

LOL, I like these discussions it's almost like eating sour or sweet grapes which taste better LOL.

Heck when I was a Kid with my first $15. roller in the .43 Spanish I couldn't afford buying powder making .50 cents an hour stacking the bales in the haymow so I sifted the blasting powder we kept in the shed for splitting Cottonwood and Maple logs so we can handle them on the Alice tractor buzz saw cutting fire wood.
It shot just fine :)

[Don McDowell]

It was a pretty tough match, the winds were anywhere from wild to mild and the change could occur while you were wiping the bore.
I was pretty tickled that rifle shot as well as it did, I hadn't shot it since the nationals in 18, and I used the 7lb paper instead of the 8 I had used before. One thing I did notice right away the 7 lb paper ran about 3 minutes lower than the settings I had for the 8 lb.
Sure was glad I didn't have enough bullets cast and wrapped to take the 40-70 I think that wind would of just chewed it up.

[Gunlaker]

:bigsmyl2: Don, if I didn't know better I would say by your post, OE fired the "second best score fired at 600 yesterday" that makes it official, OE is the second best powder.
:bigsmyl2:

I guess that begs the question, what was the first best powder?
Wait, wait, ...I think I have some inside information on that answer. :bigsmyl2:

I hear the scores are posted over on Shiloh.
Michael Rix

Based on the wind conditions in the match report, you were on fire! Nice shooting! Interesting that you used Hoch nose pour bullets.

Chris.


h

[Chill Wills]

Based on the wind conditions in the match report, you were on fire! Nice shooting! Interesting that you used Hoch nose pour bullets.

Chris.
Thanks for recognizing the effort Chris! It means a lot.
In all honesty, when we were in the pits pulling targets for relay one and two, I think the conditions might have been a little more chaotic and harder to read. By the time (we) relay 3&4 got to shoot, the south west Wyoming wind conditions may have settled into a pulse, by that I mean the winds would go nuts and then return for a minute to something I had a setting for and I would try to time my shots. Mostly. And then the wind would come from a completely different direction and not return. For those shots I was lucky and guessed close and then could start over from a new baseline direction.
Mostly - sometimes luck is with us.

You mention the Hoch molds. These old molds and this rifle have set unused for a long time. Because I am almost out of powder for my currently used rifles and would have to work up loads, I thought I would go old school and shoot a neglected rifle with some odd pounds of powder I had. That rifle and 545 Hoch mold have some great history with me. Before the DanT money bullet (mini-groove) came on the scene these old school bullets ruled the day. I had sketched up a tapered bullet I thought would shoot well in this Browning and had Dave Farmer make it. It shot like a house-a-fire and used it and the rifle to win the 2002 World Creedmoor Cup at Raton's Whittington Center that September. Hugh Wilson was second and a rare third place finish for Dave Gullo.

That Hoch bullet is a little shorter/stockier for its weight than the long high Bc designs we mostly shoot today. It may give up some Bc but takes no backseat to the high Bc bullets where great stability counts when the winds get Wyoming like.

Warning! OT alert - I failed to mention Olde Eynsford. ...there! I did.

[Don McDowell]

Michael that was one heck of a total you turned in without a doubt.
There were times when Klause and my line flags were blown out so hard that it would of been impossible to have pulled them that straight without pulling them in two, and the wind flags looked like they were made of plywood they were so flat and straight. Then all of a sudden the line would go dead, the down range flags would be pointed straight away.. It was a spotters worse nightmare all we needed to make it worse would of been dust so thick as to not be able to see the targets.
I was pretty tickled when Klaus said I shot a 78 at 600. I think the trick was to not try and chase the spotting disc, just wait for a similar condition from the sighter shots and go.

[Gunlaker]

It sounds like a fun time :-) Those sort of winds you have to experience to believe.

I've only use Hoch molds in my .32 cal schuetzen rifles and they seem to like them a lot. I had a Hoch .40 cal for my Shiloh and for some reason couldn't get it to shoot. I don't know why it wouldn't work, but I sold it as soon as I stared shooting the Saeco #740.

With respect to the OE, I like it, but mostly I like Swiss more. However I have a C. Sharps 1874 .45-70 with Dan T's PP chamber and it just doesn't like any of the Swiss powder I've bought over the last 2 years. OE 1.5 works really well in that particular rifle. That rifle is the pickiest on burn rate of any rifle I own. It probably shot the very best with Goex Express FFg.

Chris.

[Don McDowell]

As aggravating and as bubble busting as the type of conditions we shot at Cheyenne and Worland the week before can be, they do add a good bit of spice into the mix.
My 2.4 cased 45 and 44's really like OE 1.5. One of the 45's would shoot Swiss ok, the other's not so much. None of the 44's would shoot it, and that 40-70 can barely hold on a 4x8 target at 600 with Swiss.
I like and my 45-70 rifles agree that OE 1.5 is best with bullets over 525 and 2f with 525 and down. The 2 7/8's and the 40-90 all 3 like OE 1f. Interestingly enough the 44 2.4 does not like 1f of any flavor.
I hadn't shot that 45-70 I used in Cheyenne since the nationals in 18 but I loaded up 50 rounds 2 days ahead of the match and headed for Cheyenne in the early morning on Sunday. Something I need to go try a theory on is the rounds I had been shooting in that rifle were patched with 8 lb. and the rounds I took to Cheyenne were patched with 7 lb. I believe the 7 lb wrapped bullets held much better vertical than the 8 lb would of, but the most interesting thing was the sight settings with those ended up being about 3-5 minutes less on the staff than all the data I had recorded in the book with the 8 lb..
Another thing I started to thinking about in the tough conditions I don't think a 40 will hold up as well as 44's or 45's.

The Swiss vs. OE thing is interesting and I fully understand why shooters that have been using Swiss for many years with good success are hesitant to even try OE. But a relatively new shooter owe's it to hisself to try both and see just which one comes out the best.

[Gunlaker]

One thing I've found with my PP .45-70 rifle that doesn't like my last couple of lots of Swiss 1.5 is that it works very well with Swiss Fg which I hadn't tried in that rifle until recently.

Chris.

[Lead pot]

This Swiss/Olde Eynsford powder discussion will go on as long as both powders are made I believe.
I shoot both Swiss and OE and both have shot well till the last lot of Swiss really went down hill for me.
In 2016 the MT 1000, now this lot of powder was an older good lot of Swiss, I shot the first three 1K targets and they were 50% hits. 5-5-4 and this was the loads using swiss that shot the best here at home during my ladder load tests before loading for the Quigley and Baker MT. For the last target I asked my Wife to go to the camper and bring me the box of 83 gr 2F OE I put aside and when she came back she said there are only a few left and OI said I only need 11.
We were aloud one sighter shot and without making a elevation shot but I did make a wind change because it switched and it hit white and I shot 11 rounds total and they all scored. Carolyn, my spotter, said I could only see two hits that were out of the center white I have no idea where the rest hit and I figured that because she did not give me any sight changes. When it was over Bob W came over and said you were holding center in the white except for a couple shots.
Charlie Young came in first and match winner and he used a scope and shot a 29, a very good score for the MT 1000 with those conditions.
Shane Kraft iron sights was first irons with a 25
Mike Buchholz was second irons with a 24
I came in third irons with a 24
I feel the OE pulled me through in the end. I feel if I can stand with those hard holders I mentioned that the powder works for me.
The last Q 2019 I shot, I finished 9th overall using the 2F OE and first in the white buffalo class.
2019 will be the last iron sight shoot for me. I'm forced to use a scope now if I want to hear that clang when the bullets hit.
Swiss really has to show some good results again before I will reorder it. I'm down to a halve can now.

Kurt

[Distant Thunder]

Kurt,

What rifle and cartridge were you shooting that OE 2F in? Just so I can fully understand the good performance it gave you.

There is no doubt that Swiss 1 1/2 has changed and not in a good way, but I need to do some more shooting with the different lots I have before I can toss aside the powder that has put me at or near the top at least the past 15 years.

This discussion gives me hope and an idea of which way to turn if I have to move away from Swiss.

[ian45662]

Jim will you be going to the Great Lakes Regional in Alma Michigan next month?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Distant Thunder]

Ian,

I'm not planning on that one. I was thinking August, but Brent wants to go to Harris. So I'm hoping for Alma in September. My wife is planning a couple of trips to visit our kids and grandkids, that will be in July and August and I have to work around her schedule. She hasn't settled on the dates yet so it making things hard for me to plan ahead. I have to be very careful about starting those kind of conversations, once I'm in one it can be impossible to get out and it quickly becomes a lose/lose situation for me!

I figure the dust will settle on her trips by the Fourth and I'll be pretty much free after that. This condensed shooting season is not a good thing.

[Lead pot]

Jim,
For both matches I was using the CPA .45-2.4 and the chamber was cut using my tight 5º/2.5º compound transition chamber.
And I used this BA bullet https://www.buffaloarms.com/442-525-grain-paper-patch-bullet-mold-1-cavity-flat-base-jim442525 but I had them make it a .443" diameter. I like this nose profile and I know it's not as pretty as the long sharp nosed bullets but they just works the best for me.
82 to 83 grains 2F OE in my 2.4 and the 2.1 seems to make it the best down range the best.

[Distant Thunder]

The 2.4 is a good one for sure. 83 grains is a fairly light load in that case for a bore diameter ppb. Are seating deep or using a wad stack?

That bullet profile is on my list to take a good look at in both .44 and .45. With this shortened season and the stupid China creepin' crude out there things are of course behind schedule, but it will remain one to work with before 2021 season kicks off.

That 1.430" length is a sweet spot for a .45 with an 18-twist.

[Lead pot]

Jim,

In the 2.4 I use a .023" wad cut from a soy milk or OJ carton over the powder because I use a 3/16 lube wad and a .03" polly or gasket under the bullet to use up the extra room of the light powder charge in the 2.4 case with a 83 gr load of OE powder.

With the 82 gr load for the 2.1 I use a .023" over the powder, no lube and a .06 polly. Both loads have the bullet seated 1/8" in the case.

[ian45662]

Well....... I shoot another match with the Old E but with 2 wads. For what it’s worth I am going to get another case of Swiss.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk