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sonoransixgun
12-21-2019, 03:45 PM
This is an article from World magazine....It's nothing new to us who are believers, but I enjoy it when eminent liberals and atheists agree with us and show some common sense (even though she still doesn't advocate authentic faith)....

Why belief in God matters to kids
Declining interest in religion is one of the most important explanations for increased rates of depression and anxiety in children and teens today, according to New York psychoanalyst Erica Komisar.

“I am often asked by parents, ‘How do I talk to my child about death if I don’t believe in God or heaven?’ My answer is always the same: ‘Lie,’” she wrote in an editorial earlier this month for The Wall Street Journal. “The idea that you simply die and turn to dust may work for some adults, but it doesn’t help children. Belief in heaven helps them grapple with this tremendous and incomprehensible loss.”

But fewer and fewer Americans attend church or say they believe in God. Komisar, who is politically liberal and Jewish, cited research on higher psychological well-being for children or teens who attend a religious service at least once a week. She also praised the values of empathy, gratitude, and community instilled by a religious identity, needed antidotes to a distracted, lonely, and individualistic culture.

This isn’t the first time Komisar has been willing to voice controversial conclusions. Reporters and reviewers shunned her after the release of her 2017 book Being There: Why Prioritizing Motherhood in the First Three Years Matters, which used neuroscience and psychology to defend the idea that babies have a biological need for their mother’s care. —K.C.

dverna
12-21-2019, 08:47 PM
My fiancé recently lost her four year old granddaughter. Her six year old grandson was comforted to know his sister was in heaven....no longer suffering...and looking down at us.

sonoransixgun
12-21-2019, 09:16 PM
So sorry for your loss....But yes, that's exactly what her brother needed and what the psychologist affirms....How people get through life without faith in God is something I don't get....

smoked turkey
12-21-2019, 09:26 PM
I agree fully with the post sonoransixgun. I would go so far as to say the same well being and attitudes can be seen in adults who regularly attend worship and express a belief in the God of the Bible. I personally cannot see how people who have no connection with the Christian faith manage in today's sometimes rough and rocky world.

dverna
12-21-2019, 10:46 PM
I can attest that many atheists function exceedingly well in the real world. Many are kind and considerate. Many are better people than some people you will meet in your church. And in general will be slightly more intelligent. It is their intelligence that drives them away from God...sadly.

A relationship with an atheist will be a great learning experience if you keep an open mind and do not preach to them until they are ready to receive the Word

sonoransixgun
12-21-2019, 11:41 PM
Thanks, smoked turkey...my experience too...

Don, I have relationships with atheists. I think all of us do, especially in our post-Christian times...There's one guy in particular that will actually discuss things of substance (most will not). Though neither of us has said anything that's changed the other's mind, we respect each other and maintain a good friendship. Like the psychologist in the article above, he readily acknowledges the positive effects of religion, particularly Christianity. I don't know if I agree with you on the intelligence thing, though. To me it's more of a cultural thing. Many of the fathers of modern science were Christians who believed in God. Today atheism is in vogue, so most people, including the educated scientists, do not believe in God. But anyway, the point of the article was that children really need the support provided by religion, and I think it's great to hear an important psychologist acknowledge the truth of this.

AnthonyB
12-22-2019, 02:04 AM
I have posted in these discussions before, and hope I have been able to avoid offending anyone. I offer these thoughts not to challenge believers, but to inform the discussion on why people may believe as they do. I can best describe my religious status as agnostic trending toward atheism.
I was raised in the Church of Christ and baptized at age ten. I was a true believer and walked the walk. I could give details, but they are not really relevant to the discussion. I lost my faith on Highway 8 in Iraq.
I came home and raised my children in the Church, even though I no longer really believed. Then my wife was diagnosed with a series of medical conditions that would eventually take 20 years to kill her. I buried her in 2016. In between her illnesses and death, I got the opportunity to study history at Vanderbilt and teach a World History course at a military academy for three years. We went from the beginning of recorded history to the Renaissance in 40 lessons. Did you know every ancient civilization save the Chinese had a creation myth? And that they were all different, and based on the conditions where the society evolved?
Now, I am married again to another Christian woman. I don't believe, but I am there with her in church whenever we are together (we live in different states). I understand and enthusiastically support what ethical monotheism and Christianity have contributed to Western Civilization, but it is not for me. I don't beat cripples or kick dogs, and my beliefs do not make me an unproductive member of society.
My point is that just like you, most of us have reasons for what we don't believe.
Tony

Cheezrichard
12-22-2019, 02:44 AM
AnthonyB,well put my experience mirrors yours.

sonoransixgun
12-22-2019, 09:42 AM
Tony, you might be interested in a book by Don Richardson titled "Eternity in Their Hearts." It traces various myths and legends from around the world that parallel stories from the Bible. It's a fascinating topic....

dangitgriff
12-22-2019, 12:12 PM
God and bigfoot are real. [emoji6]
Government is bad for the soul. We fight for our government today and not God...faith in the former being taught to our kids over the latter. You and your children should stay the hell out of the military if you believe in God.
Laurence Vance sums it up succinctly here:

https://www.lewrockwell.com/2003/10/laurence-m-vance/christianity-and-war-2/

Laurence M. Vance writes from central Florida. He is the author of The War on Drugs Is a War on Freedom; War, Christianity, and the State: Essays on the Follies of Christian Militarism; War, Empire, and the Military: Essays on the Follies of War and U.S. Foreign Policy; King James, His Bible, and Its Translators, and many other books. His newest books are Free Trade or Protectionism? and The Free Society.

sonoransixgun
12-22-2019, 04:45 PM
Little confused by your post, dangitgriff....It seems (please correct me if I'm wrong) that you're using the thread I started to vent your feelings about Christianity and war. You don't even come close to addressing the topic of my original post....Kids need faith to weather the trials of life....

HARRYMPOPE
12-23-2019, 12:42 AM
Joseph Campbell Hero "the Hero with a Thousand Faces"

A very good history of the stories of many faiths and their similarities.

1hole
12-23-2019, 05:03 PM
I hope everyone here has a blessed Christmas in Lord Jesus!

I know a lot of Christians. No Christian I know of thinks all believers are sweetness and light, nor thinks that all non-believers are evil and cruel, but those ideas seem to be dominate themes buried deep in the minds of "smart" non-believers.

It amuses me when I read - again - that non-believers in our God are more intelligent than believers. I guess it's the echo chamber in the world they live in but it's certainly not true in the real world.

I believe we are born with an empty place in our hearts that only God can fill. Little kids aren't big on knowing the "why" of everything, they just focus on "what" is true. Seems children are more aware of their needs than most adults. Therefore, children are more receptive to the love and security they (we) can experience in a trusting relationship with God AND with the eternal family he provides. Seems the science of inertia comes into play as we age; the bigger we get the more more difficult it becomes for grown-ups who have grown callous to Him to change directions.

I'll be 80 this year. By anyone's recogning, that's old so the time for my "translation" is near. I sorta dread a pending painful death process but not it's end. Thing is, that's not just me, it's typical of Christians at the point of death.

I am occasionally present when old friends and family died and knew they were going, none of them have ever been traumatic. Nurses tell me there is a significant difference in the passing away emotions of those who have the "GOD" cavity in their hearts properly filled.

You may say to me, "God doesn't do what I want him to do so I don't/won't trust in Jesus." Okay, I understand your disappointment but I ask you back, "Why not try it? If I'm wrong you would lose nothing at all but if I'm right you would gain everything worth having, including a life of inner peace that's passed any man's understanding. That's not too shabby a deal is it?"

sonoransixgun
12-24-2019, 05:07 PM
Well said, 1hole....hard to argue against the wisdom of age....

lefty o
12-24-2019, 05:34 PM
to me, it doesnt matter what your belief is, the worst thing one can do is LIE.

sonoransixgun
12-24-2019, 05:39 PM
Yeah, Lefty, I thought that was a pretty lame suggestion too. Especially to kids. They can see through fake adults like pros....But the main point was that research proves something that is true.

EDG
12-25-2019, 03:29 AM
Your rationale at the end of this post seems to be if nothing else belief in God is a good insurance policy against an eternity in hell. I find that a somewhat trite, self serving and greedy way to look at faith.
It seems that faith in your god as it presented about your Christian god is something that you would want to have even if there was no payoff in heaven. In other words just being a good person should be reward enough. It seems you make it (in today's Latin) a quid pro quo with God.


I hope everyone here has a blessed Christmas in Lord Jesus!

I know a lot of Christians. No Christian I know of thinks all believers are sweetness and light, nor thinks that all non-believers are evil and cruel, but those ideas seem to be dominate themes buried deep in the minds of "smart" non-believers.

It amuses me when I read - again - that non-believers in our God are more intelligent than non-believers. I guess it's the echo chamber in the world they live in but it's certainly not true in the real world.

I believe we are born with an empty place in our hearts that only God can fill. Little kids aren't big on knowing the "why" of everything, they just focus on "what" is true. Seems children are more aware of their needs than most adults. Therefore, children are more receptive to the love and security they (we) can experience in a trusting relationship with God AND with the eternal family he provides. Seems the science of inertia comes into play as we age; the bigger we get the more more difficult it becomes for grown-ups who have grown callous to Him to change directions.

I'll be 80 this year. By anyone's recogning, that's old so the time for my "translation" is near. I sorta dread a pending painful death process but not it's end. Thing is, that's not just me, it's typical of Christians at the point of death.

I am occasionally present when old friends and family died and knew they were going, none of them have ever been traumatic. Nurses tell me there is a significant difference in the passing away emotions of those who have the "GOD" cavity in their hearts properly filled.

You may say to me, "God doesn't do what I want him to do so I don't/won't trust in Jesus." Okay, I understand your disappointment but I ask you back, "Why not try it? If I'm wrong you would lose nothing at all but if I'm right you would gain everything worth having, including a life of inner peace that's passed any man's understanding. That's not too shabby a deal is it?"

sonoransixgun
12-25-2019, 05:01 AM
EDG, I don't know if 1hole will respond, and I'm not responding for him, just giving my own response to your post. I interpret the final statement in 1hole's post as his way of putting the famous "Pascal's Wager." Basically the 17th century philosopher "argued that a rational person should live as though God exists and seek to believe in God. If God does not actually exist, such a person will have only a finite loss (some pleasures, luxury, etc.), whereas he stands to receive infinite gains (as represented by eternity in Heaven) and avoid infinite losses (eternity in Hell)."

If this is a quid pro quo, it is one that is offered by God to us. "Follow Me and this is what you stand to gain..." Is it selfish to take God up on such an offer?

1hole
12-25-2019, 01:48 PM
No, EDG, a real faith, meaning a saving faith in God is not a casual "get out of hell free" card; such a contrived so called "faith" is a sure ticket TO hell.

No Christian loses any "good times" on earth, instead of that we have the best times. A Christian life well and properly lived is much more phun and deeply satisfying than any non-Christian can comprehend. On the other hand, look at the "fun filled" but obviously emotionally empty lives of the rich and famous, the beautiful and self absorbed powerful; look closely at the suicide and drug overdose rates and divorce filled lives of such people. Fact is, no one can have enough fun to be filled with the peace and deep happiness of a Christian.

Anyone thinking a Christian is expected to give up any good thing should ask themselves how much lasting joy Geo. Soros or Hugh Heffner or Michael Jackson, et al, found at the end of their self absorbed, fun filled lives at the end of each day. I know that living right doesn't cost us anything good in life, instead we attain what others vainly seek.

Bigslug
12-28-2019, 03:50 PM
I agree fully with the post sonoransixgun. I would go so far as to say the same well being and attitudes can be seen in adults who regularly attend worship and express a belief in the God of the Bible. I personally cannot see how people who have no connection with the Christian faith manage in today's sometimes rough and rocky world.

Simply put, we accept that the rough and rocky world is proof that the notion of a god with a personal interest in us is incorrect; that there's little to depend on besides ourselves and those nearest and dearest; then we suck it up and press on.

The notion put forth in the O.P. - feed kids the myth that God will make it all OK to chill out their minds - is particularly abhorrent to me. It's right up there with participation trophies, and it pretty much affirms that Karl Marx was correct in calling religion an opiate (that he wanted the state to serve as another opiate was where he crashed and burned). Sure, one wants to shelter their kids from the tragedies that life throws at us, but that should be with an ACTUAL shelter of a network of family and friends, not some ultimately useless trust in Santa Claus.

sonoransixgun
12-28-2019, 10:47 PM
Interesting to look at history and see where belief in God led and where Marx's philosophy has led.....

Just because you call it a myth, doesn't mean it's a myth....Just that you think it's a myth....

Atheism doesn't have a good track record in history for leading to good cultures and societies. Modern history has proven that....

Why has mankind historically believed in a deity up until recent times? We are no less religious today, it's just that we worship technology today instead of a God. And we're certainly no better off for it...

(I've never posted anything religious on this forum. It has been interesting to see how many non-believers have shamelessly jumped on my thread and used it to air their grievances against God and religion.)

Bigslug
12-29-2019, 11:51 AM
Well, did you want echo chamber agreement, or did you want to actually discuss this?

Your O.P. brings up the idea that the entire faith/religion thing effectively IS a form of medication against what could be called "Post Death Anxiety" or "Real World Interface Disorder", and puts forth the notion that whether or not you happen to suffer from those maladies, you should medicate your kids as a matter of course. If nothing else, that would make for some interesting social interactions: "It's like this Pastor Bob. . .Personally, I think your meds are nothing but placebos, but my kid's wetting the bed and Prozac didn't work. We thought we'd try him out on JesusRX for six months and see if that helps. If that doesn't work, we might try Mohammedol or Buddhasenex. We were considering getting him a case of Hebrewskis, but thought he might be a little young for that." I can't see how any of us would think that raising ones kids on what we consider to be lies a valid approach. How would one maintain such a sham? How's that work out after a decade or so when you tell you kid you've always thought it was B.S.? Or when you're still an atheist in 17 years when your kid starts hanging with the "wrong crowd" and goes full evangelical? Can't do the home life any good at all.

sonoransixgun
12-29-2019, 06:03 PM
Bigslug, this part of the forum is specifically called "theological." It seems logical that if you don't believe in theology you would respect others and the way they believe rather than jumping in and bashing their beleifs. (Maybe ask the mods to set up an atheist section of the forum?) I'm frustrated because people are using this thread as a platform to spew their unbelief (and not even address the original topic at all!!!!). You can call it an "echo chamber," I looked at this part of the forum as a "truth chamber."

sonoransixgun
12-29-2019, 06:26 PM
"Your O.P. brings up the idea that the entire faith/religion thing effectively IS a form of medication against what could be called "Post Death Anxiety" or "Real World Interface Disorder", and puts forth the notion that whether or not you happen to suffer from those maladies, you should medicate your kids as a matter of course."

Not at all. You're reducing the idea to something it's not. The fact is we all have (and need) a worldview. It's part of being human. Some worldviews actually make sense of life. Some don't. It's like a road map through the forest. You seem to prefer that young people just try to make it on their own without any help. Statistics show how that's not working as belief in God subsides and youth suicides and mental/emotional problems increase....

Thundarstick
12-29-2019, 08:46 PM
I find it rather intriguing that an atheistic jew is the one advising parents to "lie" to your children, and teach them to believe in God. I also think it's insightful that the same psychoanalyst has drawn the ire of her colleagues for using neuroscience and psychology to prove that babies need mothers. As a believer I find it amusing that unbelievers stumble onto God's plan, then think they have found something.

dtknowles
12-30-2019, 01:29 AM
This is an article from World magazine....It's nothing new to us who are believers, but I enjoy it when eminent liberals and atheists agree with us and show some common sense (even though she still doesn't advocate authentic faith)....

Why belief in God matters to kids
Declining interest in religion is one of the most important explanations for increased rates of depression and anxiety in children and teens today, according to New York psychoanalyst Erica Komisar.

“I am often asked by parents, ‘How do I talk to my child about death if I don’t believe in God or heaven?’ My answer is always the same: ‘Lie,’” she wrote in an editorial earlier this month for The Wall Street Journal. “The idea that you simply die and turn to dust may work for some adults, but it doesn’t help children. Belief in heaven helps them grapple with this tremendous and incomprehensible loss.”

But fewer and fewer Americans attend church or say they believe in God. Komisar, who is politically liberal and Jewish, cited research on higher psychological well-being for children or teens who attend a religious service at least once a week. She also praised the values of empathy, gratitude, and community instilled by a religious identity, needed antidotes to a distracted, lonely, and individualistic culture.

This isn’t the first time Komisar has been willing to voice controversial conclusions. Reporters and reviewers shunned her after the release of her 2017 book Being There: Why Prioritizing Motherhood in the First Three Years Matters, which used neuroscience and psychology to defend the idea that babies have a biological need for their mother’s care. —K.C.

"My answer is always the same: ‘Lie,’”

I have to disagree but then I believe in God but not necessarily life after death. I would tell the truth, nobody knows what happens when we die. Some people think we go to heaven, some people thing we are reborn, some people believe some people go to eternal punishment or some people think dead is dead. Why lie, have respect for the child and not lie to them.

Atheists don't know and God believing don't know even if they think they do.

Tim

sonoransixgun
12-30-2019, 07:07 AM
Tim, I think she's conflicted and honest about it. That's further along than most get. She sees the obvious benefit that a Christian worldview has for kids, but she's an outsider, and trying to get the same benefit by an incorrect means. It's kind of like she's an imposter "stepchild" trying to sneak in and get the benefits a real child has from its parents.

You say with such confidence, "Atheists don't know and God believing don't know even if they think they do." I guess that means you're the only one who does know! What makes you so confident that all the others are wrong and you are right?

Also, you say you believe in God. Obviously that's not in the traditional sense or the Christian sense. Is it just your own idea of God?

Don Purcell
12-30-2019, 10:24 AM
sonoransixgun, what makes you think YOU are right and anyone else who doesn't follow YOU that they are wrong. It's like the bumper stickers that say "God said it, I believe it, that settles it", which smacks of arrogance. Everyone here has had things happen in their lives both good and bad that shape their beliefs and they are entitled to their beliefs just as you are. This section is "Theological Discussion" where people can discuss their beliefs, or lack of, and even possibly see something in a different light they hadn't thought of before. Personally, I consider myself at best a Deist and have little use for organized religion but I do attend church with my wife and son out of respect for them. Believe it or not I am on the church security team to help with any emergency that my come up and that doesn't only mean putting down some armed intruder. Some people who come here my be searching and have legitimate questions based on what they have experienced in life and shooting the wounded has usually been the Christian way.

dtknowles
12-30-2019, 11:00 AM
Tim, I think she's conflicted and honest about it. That's further along than most get. She sees the obvious benefit that a Christian worldview has for kids, but she's an outsider, and trying to get the same benefit by an incorrect means. It's kind of like she's an imposter "stepchild" trying to sneak in and get the benefits a real child has from its parents.

You say with such confidence, "Atheists don't know and God believing don't know even if they think they do." I guess that means you're the only one who does know! What makes you so confident that all the others are wrong and you are right?

Also, you say you believe in God. Obviously that's not in the traditional sense or the Christian sense. Is it just your own idea of God?

I don't know what happens after we die anymore than anyone else. Also I am not saying that others are wrong, I am saying that while they have beliefs they don't know.

What other idea of God should you have beside the one that God gives you? Actually my belief is quite traditional. There is one God the maker of the Universe.

Tim

sonoransixgun
12-30-2019, 08:53 PM
Thanks, Don....I never said I was right and everyone else was wrong, etc., etc....Tim was the one who made the statement that "Atheists don't know and God believing don't know even if they think they do." I was just asking him about that, and don't understand why you're pointing a finger at me as if I'm the one making these claims...

lefty o
12-30-2019, 10:00 PM
nobody truly knows for sure, and that is why its FAITH.

Don Purcell
12-31-2019, 10:47 AM
sonoransixgun, it's no excuse but the last four months have been a grind with taking care of my mother and after a day or so re-reading my post I did come out pretty sharp in my post and I'm sorry for that. It is one of my many faults. Keep you powder dry, Don.

1hole
12-31-2019, 11:50 AM
"My answer is always the same: ‘Lie,’” .... Why lie, have respect for the child and not lie to them.


An adult's mindless pursuit of "truth" in the hearts and minds of children in times of distress does more emotional damage than necessary. Why not reassure a "child" and give him some measure of comfort, like when someone in his family dies. Who or what is harmed in any way if we say, "He's gone to heaven and he won't hurt or be sick anymore but we'll all get to see him again when we get to heaven too."

Some of us do know what happens after death but, no, it can't be proven in any scientific way. But science is a cold comfort; why lay the burden of some adult's doubt on a child long before he's able to deal with man-size questions?

Seriously, other than inflating an adult's ego for always being "honest" with children, what good does transferring adult spiritual uncertainties do for a child who is confused and hurting RIGHT NOW? My compassion for children is much too great for me to lay the emotional burdens and spiritual wranglings of humanity at large on their small backs before they are strong enough to deal with it.

I have always and will continue to "lie" about scientific questions of Jesus and heaven in order to comfort any hurting person within my reach. I'm just not going to ram other people's intellectual, spiritual or emotional adult confusions down children's throats before they are ready to deal with it.

Kids grow up in due time, we can't stop it; I know that as an observed fact so I'm determined to make their progression as easy as possible. Meaning I will always "lie" about my Biblically orthodox view of God's heaven to people who are hurting, especially so to children.

lefty o
12-31-2019, 12:03 PM
what good does it do to lie to a child? it only serves to make the adult who is lying feel better. things can be told to a child to comfort them without lies.

sonoransixgun
12-31-2019, 01:34 PM
Thanks, Don....respect for your dedication to mom....Hope you get through this time without too much pain....(I live in the desert so the powder's dry :))

Thanks, 1hole, always enjoy your words....makes so much sense.

lefty o, you're entitled to your opinion, for sure, and I respect your freedom to have it....don't know your life situation and connection to kids, but what 1hole says above your post is the best response to your question "what good does it do to lie to a child?" I have have raised and am raising many kids of my own. My profession involves kids as well. What 1hole says is the truth of the matter to me....I see it like a young tree (and this is a limited metaphor). You put stakes and supports around it while it is growing because it can't just be left alone. The storms will destroy it. Kids need lots of support even though those supports may be "artificial." (Where the analogy breaks down for me is that I don't consider the supports artificial but rather real and true.) What psychology has proven is that these "artificial supports" are good for kids. You can argue with that but you're just arguing with research and contradicting it with your own opinion...

lefty o
12-31-2019, 01:47 PM
no what he said about lying to kids is not the best answer. there is no need to lie to kids. one might just try telling them that, i like to think he/she is in heaven being looked after by god. not a lie, and comforting. no matter how dumb some people think kids are, by the time they can talk most of them have the basic concept of heaven/hell understood, even those in non religious families. if one needs to lie to a kid about their religion, there is something wrong with the religion.

sonoransixgun
12-31-2019, 02:52 PM
something wrong with the religion, or something wrong with the people??? a hundred years ago this was taught and believed by the great majority....the need to "lie" about it is a modern concept that reflects on modern people more than anything....

dtknowles
12-31-2019, 09:35 PM
something wrong with the religion, or something wrong with the people??? a hundred years ago this was taught and believed by the great majority....the need to "lie" about it is a modern concept that reflects on modern people more than anything....

Christianity was never believed by a majority of the worlds population. Rarely more than a third. But maybe you mean the combined Abrahamic religions of Judaism, Islam and Christianity. A sizeable portion of the population Hindu and Buddhist believe in a different life after death, 1.7 billion people. Alternately, maybe my mean the U.S. population, yes the majority of U.S. residents claim to be Christian. There are some counties in the U.S. where almost everyone is Christian.

Regarding lying to children. It is such a common practice that that lie probably does little harm and sometimes some good.

Tim

dtknowles
12-31-2019, 09:48 PM
Why not reassure a "child" and give him some measure of comfort, like when someone in his family dies. Who or what is harmed in any way if we say, "He's gone to heaven and he won't hurt or be sick anymore but we'll all get to see him again when we get to heaven too."

a child long before he's able to deal with man-size questions?

Half of all children are girls, not he, his, he's or him but they, theirs or them. You would not want to be considered sexist! Not, man-size but adult size.

Tim

dtknowles
12-31-2019, 10:03 PM
something wrong with the religion, or something wrong with the people??? a hundred years ago this was taught and believed by the great majority....the need to "lie" about it is a modern concept that reflects on modern people more than anything....

If the child your are talking too, is unlikely to have a friend who is Hindu or Buddhist the child will not likely question your concept of heaven. If the child goes to a school with a mix of peoples and relates your comforting story to their Hindu friend who then explains the process of reincarnation and karma. Are you going to tell the child that his friend is wrong and his deceased ancestor will not be reincarnated. It is a challenge being a "modern" person. We are exposed to a lot of different ideas, we are not growing up in a homogenous community but a instead a diverse community. We are exposed to a larger world with lots of different ideas.

Tim

1hole
12-31-2019, 10:35 PM
Half of all children are girls, not he, his, he's or him but they, theirs or them.

At least half of us - including you - understand that male pronouns used as I just did applies to all humanity and it's nothing but an effort to deflect thinking that causes you to take that path. All three of my offspring are she's; they are quite intelligent - and mature - and they know what I said in the context of what I wrote. You do too, but .... ??


You would not want to be considered sexist! Not, man-size but adult size.

Considering the confused minds of those snowflakes who melt down at imagined errors today, I don't care a bit what I'm "considered."

dtknowles
12-31-2019, 11:07 PM
I suspect that you don't have the courtesy to change with the times and use gender neutral pronouns. It is no longer the case that the pronouns you used are consider to apply to all humanity. They are not snowflakes that melt down at imagined errors they are strong people who will not give respect to those who can't return it with courtesy.

I will need to stop it at this point as we are no longer talking about theology.

Tim

lefty o
01-01-2020, 11:35 AM
something wrong with the religion, or something wrong with the people??? a hundred years ago this was taught and believed by the great majority....the need to "lie" about it is a modern concept that reflects on modern people more than anything....

generally, people are the religion. but back to the main topic. there is no need to lie to a child to comfort them. it may take a little thought and concern to convey what you want without lying, but it can be done. lying is my #1 most hated thing, as it is tied in with everything else people consider evil or a sin in life. no one has ever met a thief who wasnt a liar, no one has ever met a cheater who wasnt a liar, no one has ever met a murder who wasnt a liar. dont teach a child that it is ok to lie. if you lie to them, you are telling them it is ok, they might not know it today or tomorrow, but they will figure it out. i could go on, but i think everyone gets the idea.

Hickory
01-01-2020, 12:15 PM
Discussions like this are always interesting.
There are always those who know, those who think they know, and those who have been deceived and unknowingly pass on the deception.

sonoransixgun
01-01-2020, 01:15 PM
Thanks, Hickory....

How do you get that "Bitter Clinger" logo? I like it....

Hickory
01-01-2020, 02:03 PM
Click on your user name.
click on view profile.
On left side, go to join group.

1hole
01-01-2020, 02:57 PM
Getting back to the topic, "Why belief in God matters to kids" one poster decried people "lying to kids about God" in the implied context that since "no one knows", any suggestions to a kid that God is real has to be a "lie." I said to "lie" to the kids in the sense the poster meant it but he's wrong.

Deniers are wrong about God and heaven, thus their version of my truth automatically becomes their "lie". When I said "lie" to hurting children I was playing their foolish word game back to them using their own intellectually false term; by their own admission they don't know who is right. So, devoid of that knowledge, their calling those who disagree with them "liers" is intellectually dishonest on its face.

I believe in the God of the Bible. I defy anyone to prove I'm wrong about God and his heaven AND/OR to explain how my truth can possibly be harmful to children ... or anyone else. Fact is, for anyone to withhold any measure of comfort from a child (or anyone else) in deep emotional agony is cruel, especially if it's coldly intellectual because they lack a scientific certainty of a heavenly reunion. And THAT'S my unabashed "truth"!


Note to anyone who cares: Regardless of my chosen use of pronouns, because of their mother no one who knows my three girls would suggest they're intellectual weaklings lacking a strong sense of who and what they are no matter what a few emotionally crippled pink hatted "modern" nags may screech. Also from their mother (and maybe their father?), they know who and what real men should be. And, because of who my girls became, they each have overseen Christian homes for my nine emotionally, intellectually and spiritually strong grandchildren - and now, by extension, our four great-grandchildren.

All meaning I have no apologies to anyone for the mature pronouns I use and I really like the living ripple effects of God's version of the truth ("Bring up a child in the way he should go and when he is old ..." -- Prov. 22:6).

dtknowles
01-01-2020, 09:07 PM
Telling your a child about the afterlife you believe is not a lie, a lie is telling someone something that you believe is untrue.

Tim

lefty o
01-02-2020, 12:10 AM
it is always great to see how well people twist things around. it is never good enough that they believe or have faith, it is always they are right, and you are wrong. regardless, if you have to lie, you are wrong. i dont even care what your stance or beliefs are. you do not have to lie, especially to a child about your belief to comfort them.

Rizzo
01-02-2020, 02:07 PM
Hmmmm,....
Lying to children makes me think of Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, the Tooth Fairy.............
Why do we tell those lies?
Our "culture" has been doing that for years.

1hole
01-02-2020, 03:48 PM
Truth is a virtue. A lie is something told to deceive others in harmful ways. Not every story that's untrue is a lie. Jesus spoke to men in parables; they were stories that were not technically true but they were not lies; Jesus' stories served greater truths that needed telling. A blind pursuit of the virtue of truth, of itself and regardless of effect, can easily become callous and, in that, become sinful.

One of the worst failings of well intended but heartless "good" people is using their legalist/humanist thinking to carefully beat others over the head for their own good rather than striving to meet their immediate needs. Thus, sadly, mindless "good" people have repelled many hurting people away from a perceived harsh god. Hurting people of any age can't be comforted by hearing the fine points of uncertain individual theology. An adult myopic pursuit of a lofty vision of truth can easily be heartless in effect, especially so to kids; that's not something anyone should be proud of. (1 Cor 13:1)

In God's eyes, the primary value any man can have is a heart of loving empathy, not one who blindly follows a cold list of legalistic religious rules. Many dedicated military chaplains have compassionately - and, IMHO, rightly - "lied" to comfort dying soldiers; I thank God for them. Ditto those who kneel to do right things in order to comfort hurting children. (1 Sam 16:7)

I don't expect atheists to understand all this.

lefty o
01-02-2020, 08:23 PM
a lie, is a lie no matter how you color it.

1hole
01-02-2020, 09:18 PM
I thought that's the way you would feel. :)

dverna
01-02-2020, 11:32 PM
An adult's mindless pursuit of "truth" in the hearts and minds of children in times of distress does more emotional damage than necessary. Why not reassure a "child" and give him some measure of comfort, like when someone in his family dies. Who or what is harmed in any way if we say, "He's gone to heaven and he won't hurt or be sick anymore but we'll all get to see him again when we get to heaven too."

Some of us do know what happens after death but, no, it can't be proven in any scientific way. But science is a cold comfort; why lay the burden of some adult's doubt on a child long before he's able to deal with man-size questions?

Seriously, other than inflating an adult's ego for always being "honest" with children, what good does transferring adult spiritual uncertainties do for a child who is confused and hurting RIGHT NOW? My compassion for children is much too great for me to lay the emotional burdens and spiritual wranglings of humanity at large on their small backs before they are strong enough to deal with it.

I have always and will continue to "lie" about scientific questions of Jesus and heaven in order to comfort any hurting person within my reach. I'm just not going to ram other people's intellectual, spiritual or emotional adult confusions down children's throats before they are ready to deal with it.

Kids grow up in due time, we can't stop it; I know that as an observed fact so I'm determined to make their progression as easy as possible. Meaning I will always "lie" about my Biblically orthodox view of God's heaven to people who are hurting, especially so to children.

Our 6 year old grandson believes his little sister is in heaven because we believe in God. He comes to church with us. It is not B.S. to our grandson.

If a child of an an atheist hears that his little sister is in heaven, it does not work. The child knows the parents/grandparents do not believe in God. The child would know it is a lie.

When we walked up to the casket of our granddaughter, it was awful. Our grandson saw our grief and came over to us. The little guy, put his hand over his heart and told us his sister was in our hearts and she was in heaven looking down us us.

Believing in God and heaven made a huge difference to that boy and the rest of us.

I agree with your post. Even if there is no God....it is stupid for an atheist to tell a child dealing with death there is no God unless it is their child they want to screw up

lefty o
01-02-2020, 11:38 PM
I thought that's the way you would feel. :)

you would be correct, but it has nothing to do with religious beliefs or lack of. ideas, thoughts, and beliefs can be explained to children without lying. it is sad that so many people take the easy way out in life and lie instead of putting thought into what they say.

dverna
01-02-2020, 11:44 PM
you would be correct, but it has nothing to do with religious beliefs or lack of. ideas, thoughts, and beliefs can be explained to children without lying. it is sad that so many people take the easy way out in life and lie instead of putting thought into what they say.

It is not a lie if our children know we believe. See my post above.

lefty o
01-02-2020, 11:50 PM
It is not a lie if our children know we believe. See my post above.

i never said its a lie if you believe. the whole premise of the OP's opening article was lie to children to make them feel better. if you have to lie to a child, it is either because you dont believe yourself, or your just too lazy to put in the required effort.

1hole
01-03-2020, 12:31 PM
Our 6 year old grandson believes his little sister is in heaven because we believe in God. He comes to church with us. It is not B.S. to our grandson.

If a child of an an atheist hears that his little sister is in heaven, it does not work. The child knows the parents/grandparents do not believe in God. The child would know it is a lie.

True, but it would only be a lie in the hearts of the speaker, not in fact.

Children come in all ages and maturity. If a kid is too young to know the lost spiritual position of his family then saying there is a loving God in a beautiful heaven would probably help. At worst, it would be meaningless to him but it would still be harmless. IMHO.


When we walked up to the casket of our granddaughter, it was awful. Our grandson saw our grief and came over to us. The little guy, put his hand over his heart and told us his sister was in our hearts and she was in heaven looking down us us.

Believing in God and heaven made a huge difference to that boy and the rest of us.

Yep.


I agree with your post. Even if there is no God....it is stupid for an atheist to tell a child dealing with death there is no God unless it is their child they want to screw up.

Yeah. Well, it would be stupid to expect anyone at all to find even a slight comfort in the atheist's position.

I've found that a significant majority of doctors and nurses (in my area) are professing Christians. Those medic's accounts of imminent patient death confirm that most atheists die terrified by their empty beliefs, not comforted; it seems few Christians die that way.

Any atheist trying to give intellectual words of comfort and encouragement for others, kids or adults, by thoughtfully sharing their own nihilistic beliefs can only make an already emotional bad time worse. Their bottom line is, "It's over kid, your sister/parent/etc. is now as dead and destroyed as a squashed bug. Life is meaningless, death happens to all of us so buck up, grit your teeth and wait for your turn to be squashed." That's not me.

I'm going to do everything in my power to reassure hurting and frightened children OR adults. In love, my counsel is and always will be, "God is in his heaven, your loved one is with him and, if you follow Jesus, someday you'll meet again."

If that's a "sinful lie" to some, so be it, but I'm not concerned. I'd much rather face Jesus as a committed force of His love than as a humanist pretender determined to feed others some kind of hurtful "truth." If possible, I'll deal with the "rest of God's story" later, when the injured and emotionally hurting people are better prepared to receive it. As I see it, those who are determined to do otherwise are ready to use "truth" as a club to further inflate their already huge self image.

dverna
01-03-2020, 02:36 PM
Like your post 1-hole

Bigslug
01-04-2020, 05:06 PM
Even if there is no God....it is stupid for an atheist to tell a child dealing with death there is no God unless it is their child they want to screw up

There are many levels of "screwed up" that can arise here, not the least of which is "You're saying that my Mommy is in Heaven, but I REALLY need her down here. This 'Plan' that you're saying is not my place to understand just lit all MY plans on fire. Just exactly what reassurance do you think I'm supposed to get from your view of things?"

Think of it this way - an atheist will tell a kid that Mom was an unfortunate bug that got hit by some random windshield of the universe, and now they'll have to get on with whatever they have left; the believer will effectively tell a kid that the Supreme Being murdered Mom to further His own ends, and that the murderer will always be at large.

Short version - the notion of a "guiding hand" being behind all that happens is not necessarily going to be taken as a comfort by all it is presented to. I'll take - and do take - the random meteor strike conclusion every time. For some, "There is no 'WHY'" is a better place to proceed from, and looking for one only provides more misery. At the very least, presenting that view is often going to take many more supporting arguments - and you'd better be prepared to deliver them - to chill a traumatized child out. Hopefully, that explains to you why the non-spiritual should not attempt to guide anyone spiritually. What any of us perceive as a lie is harder to sell/maintain than what we perceive as the truth, and starting the conversation by lying to an innocent dealing with a lot of pain - or delivering them to someone who would lie for you by telling their version of the truth - is an ethical train wreck waiting to happen.

1hole
01-04-2020, 09:31 PM
... Just exactly what reassurance do you think I'm supposed to get from your view of things?[/I]"

Nothing anyone can say in death is guaranteed to help everyone in every situation; that's life, nothing's perfect, but what approach is better? I mean, if may I be so bold as to ask, what reassurance do you think your position offers anyone in any way and at any time?


universe, and now they'll have to get on with whatever they have left; the believer will effectively tell a kid that the Supreme Being murdered Mom to further His own ends, and that the murderer will always be at large.

Specious nonsense. No one, especially a kid, is going to twist things up like that so, effectively, your scenario is a lie. But even if someone should actually be silly enough to think in such warped terms, your "solution" would certainly be no less crushing.


Short version - the notion of a "guiding hand" being behind all that happens is not necessarily going to be taken as a comfort by all it is presented to. I'll take - and do take - the random meteor strike conclusion every time. For some, "There is no 'WHY'" is a better place to proceed from, and looking for one only provides more misery. At the very least, presenting that view is often going to take many more supporting arguments - and you'd better be prepared to deliver them - to chill a traumatized child out. Hopefully, that explains to you why the non-spiritual should not attempt to guide anyone spiritually. What any of us perceive as a lie is harder to sell/maintain than what we perceive as the truth, and starting the conversation by lying to an innocent dealing with a lot of pain - or delivering them to someone who would lie for you by telling their version of the truth - is an ethical train wreck waiting to happen.

Goodness. Are you actually saying we should "lie" to others by telling your spiritually ignorant version of truth? Ethical train wreck? Do you really think believers would do better to lie to the hurting by tell them some spacey version of your meteor story? Do you honestly think there could be any human comfort found in your poorly thought out stories?

No offence intended but you sound quite young and inexperienced, I have to wonder how old you are?

Bigslug
01-04-2020, 11:00 PM
I guess just shy of 50 is young for this forum, and you're clearly not picking up what I'm putting down.

Yeah, I have my views, but this discussion is not about your system or mine being wrong; this is about the hazards of trying to pitch a system you have no confidence in. Basically the premise put forth in the OP is that Bernie Sanders should try his hand at preaching capitalism, regardless of his convictions to the contrary. Some folks are not fit to deliver certain messages. Good enough?

And for the record, I'm not under any illusion that my system is offering any kind of comfort beyond "let's just yank this tooth and get it over with". Spiritual Novocaine works for some; others have trouble with the side effects. Is THAT good enough?

Bazoo
01-04-2020, 11:13 PM
Interesting discussion, Thanks 1hole for your contributions.

I have a tangent question. Kind of the reverse.

So you're a Christian and you have a family death (let's say grandpa) that you have to explain to your child. Grandpa was not a Christian. So how do you handle that? Just blatantly lie and say grandpa is in heaven?

What if the child has knowledge of salvation and asks if grandpa was saved?

Thundarstick
01-05-2020, 06:24 AM
Ever been to a funeral of a heathen where the preacher obviously never met the man, then proceeds to preach him into heaven?

I had a neighbor who was a nonbeliever. When she passed her daughter asked if I would be a pallbearer. We met at the mortician's place a few days later, loaded her up in the hurst, followed it to the cemetery, unloaded her casket over the hole. There where around a dozen family and friends there. No words where spoken as they lowered her into the hole, done and done. At least her wishes where carried out to the end, but it was about like I was burying a dead dog. Not even a celebration of life, just taking out the trash, and this woman was worth millions.

1hole
01-05-2020, 03:34 PM
Interesting discussion,

So you're a Christian and you have a family death (let's say grandpa) that you have to explain to your child. Grandpa was not a Christian. So how do you handle that? Just blatantly lie and say grandpa is in heaven?

I can't say with any certainty how anyone should handle that of course but I'd say keep in mind you're dealing with a child who has a child-like understanding of the world. But, for sure, deal kindly - and hopefully - at his emotional level and let the bigger spiritual problems wait.


What if the child has knowledge of salvation and asks if grandpa was saved?

Tell the truth. Which is something like, "I don't know (After all, you really do not know!), but I know God loves you and, with his help, we'll all take care of you." No matter your fears for gramps, keep in mind that you're talking to an emotionally torn child and you really don't know which way the old dude has gone anyway so "honestly" leaping to say he's probably in hell, would indeed be a lie. And foolish, IMHO.


* I'm on the cusp of 80; a lot of men don't make it here and few men get much older than me. Age means experience and experienced men (should) gain tempered wisdom. In my time I've met a lot of 49 year olds who still thought like 29 year olds, meaning they're cock sure they know all that's worth knowing! But I've observed that, if they live long enough, most of them will eventually gain some measure of patience and true wisdom, plus the tolerance to rightly apply all that youthful "knowledge"! :)

Bazoo
01-05-2020, 03:47 PM
Thanks for your response 1hole.

EDG
01-05-2020, 05:15 PM
This reminds thread reminds me of the other tall tales that go with Christian/Western culture like the Easter bunny and Santa Clause. Fun for the kids but adults know better.

Thundarstick
01-05-2020, 05:54 PM
I, for one, never taught my children in Santa Claus or an Easter rabbit for this very reason!

1hole
01-05-2020, 06:55 PM
This reminds thread reminds me of the other tall tales that go with Christian/Western culture like the Easter bunny and Santa Clause.

Tall tales that "go with"...? Goodness.

Surely you don't want us to believe you actually think Santa Claus and Easter Bunnies are or have ever been Christian.

Blackwater
01-11-2020, 06:11 PM
You agnostics and atheists are a riot! You claim to be "smarter" than the average Christian, but you sure don't show it. All you really show is that you expect God to be some sort of "Big Daddy in the Sky" - someone who is subservient to YOUR wills! How is it that you justify such a narrow and dim view as being "rational." REAL rational people look at ALL the evidence we have, and seek out some sort of understanding of it all. Do that and you'll find God and Truth. Take any other course, however willful you wish it to be, and you'll come up empty handed in the end, and that's not a desirable position to be in, at least to rational people. You just have a DESIRE to not believe, so ..... you just don't. That's your right entirely, and even Christ can't and won't interfere with your decision, and whatever effort or lack of it you put into the search. Just reading a book or two won't cut it, my friends. Nor will interpretations made from your adopted and very willful perspectives. You're really just not interested in finding the Truth about Christ. If you were, you'd have executed an earnest and honest search, which not a one of you have done. By "earnest and honest search" here, I mean a real, dedicated desire to know what is and what isn't. If you've read the Bible 1,000 times, but with your willful and pre-determined views and attitudes, you STILL couldn't possibly find the Truth. And you never really have intended to find it. You've taken this search as a light-hearted game, and decided you're too "bright" to just believe something without ever having had face-to-face and tactal experience with something.

Let me ask all of you something: If our research scientists had taken this view, and assumed there was no other rational behavior to follow, how could they ever have many of the wondrous principles we have today, that has literally changed our world? Boys, you're still in the Stone Age when it comes to thinking! NOT the "superior intellects" you claim to be. You're just more willful and vindictive than the average Christian. And I'm not saying here that the "average Christian" is any paragon of virtue, either! We are merely saved sinners, that often, if not usually, have a hard time abandoning our previous sinful ways and sometimes, our sinful attitudes. We are sometimes, in the ultimate sense, a sorry lot, but we will make it to Heaven if only we trust and obey the words of our Savior, Jesus Christ. If you're not interested in that, then so be it. None of us here have any right to try to make your decisions FOR you. Christ only wants people He can TRUST in Heaven, and people who intentionally pass by His portal for entry, simply will never be allowed in. I hate it for you, but again, I nor anyone else can make these decisions FOR you. YOU must make them YOURSELF, and enjoy the fruits, or suffer the consequences accordingly. Laugh at this if you wish. But it's the simple Truth, and many have found it. My young Down's Syndrome cousin found it. You could if you wish to. Or if you don't, nobody's going to try to force you to believe. Typically, you view discussions of theology as simple "targets" for your insolence and pretentious dogmas. That's YOUR decision and it will hurt NO Chistian, though I'm sure you'd like to think otherwise. In short, you're just a strongly "opinionated" bunch who really aren't interested in what's really True, and what's not, and you go through your lives trying to spread your silly and unounded doubts to others, assumedly to show your "superiority" and your "more rational" approach to these matters. But for those who've had a real, personal experience with the Lord, your efforts will always be in vain. I pray for you, even though those are prayers that I can't expect to be answered very often. But then, a lot of folks who've been staunch agnostics or atheists, who thought they were immune from Christ's influence, DID in the end become converts, and more power to them! Closing one's heart to Christ's knocking at the door generally prevents any acceptance of Him. But nothing works all the time, even this, and if you ever have a moment when the door to your heart squeaks open .... well, anything can happen. C. S. Lewis was a staunch and assumedly unconvertible atheist, about as "pure" as any you'll ever find or read about or deal with. He set about to PROVE the folly in Christianity and all other religions, and in the process, he not only became a convert, he became Catholic, which sect has long been the heaviest target for non-believers' aspersions and "logic." If you want to find out if Christ is real or not, seek Him out, but do it with sincerity and an openness to ALL the indicators and evidence you consider, and DON'T pick and choose what you consider, as most all atheists and agnostics tend to do. And once you convert, if that happens, don't expect to be turned instantly into a saint. That takes a long series of trials and provenances to achieve, and very, very few have ever reached the end of that laudible journey. It's all up to you, my friends. All up to you. But you're the only ones who may pay the price for your willful agnosticism or atheism, not any of us. So I'll continue to pray for you, whether you prove amenable to the Truth, or not. God bless you. He watched over me whan I was in my sins. He watches over you as well.