nice JM marlin 1895 But?

[danmat]

Stopped by one of my local pawn shops to see if anything new was out since my last stop about a month ago.
Guy behind the counter knows me said, I pulled out a lever action the day after you stopped by.
Handed me a nice 1895 with a Williams peep and front globe sight, real nice shape blue perfect 2 or 3 slight wood dings,
but its 450 Marlin.
He had it priced at 599.00 which I thought was good for around here, but brass is high, buy new dies, I left thinking make a low offer or let it go, what would you all do?
Dan

[Thin Man]

Your friend at the pawn shop may not know how expensive loaded ammo (and brass for the handloader) can be for this caliber, or how hard it can be to find it. I would use these points to negotiate down his price and take the rifle home with me. Thanks to Hornady you have brass available at this time but I suspect this caliber will walk the same trail once taken by the 375 Winchester caliber. As time passes and the demand for components dries up the manufacturers will cease production and leave you wanting. If you do get the rifle please plan to invest in more brass than you otherwise would buy just for this comfort zone. Here I am speaking about my own frustrations from waiting to find 375 Winchester brass. If you later decide to sell the rifle, your brass would be an incentive to a prospective buyer. Let us know what you do here.

[nannyhammer]

If you're looking for 375 Winchester brass, Starline sells 250 pieces for less than $150.

[Shawlerbrook]

Very fair price . I would not let ammo/ brass stop you if you reload. Brass can be found and since it’s not something you will shoot thousands of times, it shouldn’t be a limitation. I shoot many leverguns that went the way of the 375 and finding brass is part of the hunt. I now have a lifetime supply for all my guns.
https://www.grafs.com/catalog/product/productId/7090

[missionary5155]

Good morning
Buy it and use it for swapping.. A 450 Marlin is a desirable rifle to collectors.

[smkummer]

The only reason 450 Marlin exists is for non reloaders to have a 45-70 loaded to Marlin pressures. If your a reloader, it’s a moot point once you find your components but the gun will be a hard sell down the road unless it falls into the rare collectible category. If it were myself, I would get a 45-70 Marlin in what ever configuration floats your boat. Love my 22” 1895SS with pistol grip and 2/3 tube.

[Texas by God]

I like the .450 Marlin. I would love to have another someday.

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[longbow]

Warning! Warning! thread drift.

I have to ask a question here for those that know. Is there any reason a 450 Marlin can't have the barrel set back a bit then run a .458x2" reamer into the chamber?

The only differences I see in head dimensions between 450 Marlin and standard magnum brass is the longer distance from head to belt and slightly less body diameter. By setting the barrel back a few though then rechambering at least a guy can use standard readily available brass.

The reason not to do it is so that a possible future collector item is not "ruined".

I guess the same argument can be made for .45-70 in that if .450 Marlin works in the Marlin 1895 then a rechambering of a .45-70 to .458x2" should work too. Not quite sure why Marlin didn't use .458x2" or at least the standard head/belt size then brass wouldn't be an issue as it could be made from readily available brass.

Nothing wrong with the intent or performance but using unique brass...? What were they thinking!?!

Longbow

[Texas by God]

The designers of the .450 Marlin put a taller belt on the case to prevent drunken Bubba from touching one off in his 7mm/.300 etc. Magnum- which can be done with the .458x2 American. Yikes! The idea didn't take because the 45-70 is so entrenched. People hotrodding the grand old round made Marlin nervous. I'm sure a CorBon or Buffalo Bore 45-70 cartridge would put various Trapdoor Springfield parts through the unfortunate noggin that said - "Hold my beer while I shoot this manly round."

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[longbow]

True enough. I hadn't thought about dropping a .458x2" into a gun chambered for bottleneck cartridge. However, the same can be said for other cartridges. If someone is putting cartridges with the wrong head stamp into a gun with different chambering they really don't know what they are doing and you cannot protect yourself or them.

Seems to me to be more dangerous having .45-70 loaded to Ruger #1 specs because that has the correct head stamp but if it was shot from a trapdoor Springfield and maybe even a Winchester 86 or Marlin 1895 there could be parts flying about (certainly would be with a trapdoor Springfield!) but that practice is common as is hot loaded .45 LC in modern guns. No-one seems too worried about that.

Also kinda like .375 Winchester that was loaded to modern pressures but could be shot from .38-55 that was not designed for modern pressures. That round faded away but I don't think that was the reason.

Kinda drifting off topic here...

It is just that the idea of the 450 Marlin was good. It was execution that was bad. Maybe it didn't have a chance due to so many .45-70's in use but for non-handloaders it offered significantly improved performance over factory .45-70 ammunition and in a lever gun.

Longbow

[bigted]

In my opinion, the 450 is a great idea in that in reloading, I would never load a hot 45-70 again. Never would there be a time when anyone ... me or someone else divying up my stuff after I'm gone ... ever stuffing a dangerous round into my or anybody's trapdoor.

The 458X2 is just another example of the 450 but with a smaller seat belt. It does nothing the 450 can't.

Now I do not own a 450 Marlin ... but ... that chamber would not slow me down if a smokin deal came my way.

I would try to get that rifle a bit cheaper but if a 458 cal rifle was wanted or needed ... I think I would take it home. It will do everything a 45-70 can plus do it in a sturdy modern case that will last your lifetime.

As an investment tho, you would depend on the rite buyer to sell it to. JM Marlins are beginning to be more and more sought after and will go for more then the asking price rite now. I say buy it ... but dicker a bit first.

[RustyReel]

A little more thread drift.....I own both the .458x2 and the .450 Marlin, both built on Mauser actions. The Marlin because I got a deal on a threaded and chambered barrel and the x2 because I wanted one.

The advantage of the x2 is the ability to make brass out of just about any belted case you find or have laying around. I make mine out of 7mm Rem Mag brass. You need to buy the Marlin brass. So right off the bat you are $50 ahead just in brass. I picked up a set of 458 Win Mag dies for about $15 and used my grinder to take off about 1/2" from the seating die and now I have a set of custom x2 dies. I think we have agreed both calibers are a handloading proposition, so I think the x2 has the advantage when comparing the two.

I haven't checked but I don't think the x2 will chamber in a 7mm Rem Mag rifle (empty brass maybe, but not a loaded round)....maybe in one of the longer Weatherby Mag caliber chambers. I'll have to pull out my .300 Wea Mag and give it a try, but I doubt that will chamber either.

None of this matters as the rifle being considered is in .450 Marlin that I think is a cool round, but destined for extinction.

[MostlyLeverGuns]

I'd have bought it, stocked up on 450 Marlin brass and smiled on my way to the range or the black timber for elk. It is a better 45-70, due to construction of the rifle, the action and barrel is stronger through the receiver ring and barrel threads. Bullets, powder, primers, everything but the brass is common with the 45-70.

[longbow]

MostlyLeverGuns you are right! If brass ever became totally extinct a guy could set the barrel back and rechamber to .458x2" if necessary. Having said that, I wound if there is a large enough step from chamber to throat to headspace on the case mouth. I hadn't thought of that until now.

I have been thinking of a 444 Marlin rimless or .45 Raptor (in single shot or bolt action), both of which are made from standard .30-06 head size brass and headspace on the case mouth. Since the 450 Marlin feeds and chambers in the lever gun, standard belted magnum brass will and if it was cut to suit the chamber I bet you could headspace on the case mouth.

It would be interesting to try it anyway. I like the cartridge and I like the gun, I just don't like the prospect of expensive brass or possibly no brass availability.

Longbow

[Texas by God]

Funny you mention that longbow, because I did that in my .450 Marlin P14 Enfield for cast bullet loads only- I made brass from 7mm Mag a bit long and trimmed until they would chamber. I reserved my Hornady. 450 brass for the 405 gr/2000 fps stompers.

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[longbow]

No reason headspacing on the case mouth shouldn't work for a bolt action or single shot with an appropriate chamber as many rifle and handgun cartridges headspace on the case mouth. Notably:

- 450 Bushmaster
- 350 legend
- .30 carbine

all factory rounds.

plus:

- .45 Raptor
- .358 Max. rimless
- 444 rimless

wildcats... and I am sure others.

I only mention these because this topic seems to come up regularly with many comments that headspacing on the case mouth won't work. What? Trim length might be more critical than for cartridges headspacing off shoulders or belts but it does work.

Now I am thinking that if Marlin 450 chambers have a sharp shoulder to headspace the case mouth on that just might work with standard magnum brass.

Longbow

I guess I just answered my own question.

Looking at the SAAMI specs the angle on the end of the chamber is 12° 45' so I am guessing not sharp enough to headspace on.

[rickys2]

you guys know the Marlin discontinue the 450 Marlin from there line up. I have both, if you don't reload the 450 Marlin is for you. You can buy hot loads from the big box stores. But if you reload the 45/70 is a better round. You can load them just as hot or mild. If you reload the Leveraction ammo (gummie tips) the brass is shorter, than the regular ammo. Good Luck


Rick

[longbow]

I guess that's the point of the rambling... 450 brass is expensive and hard to get. The OP is looking for opinions. From my point of view the 450 Marlin is a better round than .45-70 in that it is loaded to modern pressures so for a non-handloader it packs more power if needed and it can't accidentally find its way into a Trapdoor Springfield. For a handloader yes, a guy can load up the .45-70 to equal pressures so performance wise no difference except there are only a couple of options for "modern" loads for .45-70 for non-handloaders and hot loaded .45-70 could accidentally be loaded and shot from a gun not rated for that pressure.

If brass could be formed from another existing cartridge I'd go for the 450. However, it appears that is a no go due to headspacing issues. So if the supply of 450 brass dries up you'd have to rechamber if you wanted to shoot the 450. On that basis .45-70 does indeed make more sense.

Its too bad that the 1895 won't handle a slightly longer cartridge so the .45-70 brass and chamber could have been lengthened like .44 mag. so they wouldn't chamber in old guns. At least as far as I know the 1895 won't handle a longer cartridge. Then loading to modern pressures would be fine for the longer cartridge but regular .45-70 would still chamber and shoot.

Anyway, that doesn't help the OP at all.

After all this, if it is a nice gun I think I'd offer low and if he took it then invest the savings in brass to last a while.

Longbow

[danmat]

Is the 450 Hornady brass shorter than other companies like the 45-70? I have a couple 45-70s just not a marlin, that's what I was looking for when this turned up.
I was going to give it a week or two than go back and if still there make him an offer, I still wont have a Marlin 45-70. LOL
I actually found some ammo online better buy than buying brass to reload, trying to get rid of it I guess.

[pietro]

.

I once bought/tried a .450 Marlin, chambered in the Winchester 94 Timber, and soon found myself feeling "handcuffed" - as it didn't give me anything my various .45-70's didn't.

I sold it while it was new to the market and in demand, then thereafter danced with who brung me ( the .45-70).


.

[Eddie Southgate]

I have given up buying stuff that's not exactly what I really need or want . There are untold numbers of things I see that I like but for me would not be practical and therefore would collect dust . I shoot and hunt with everything I own and have 99% of what I want to do that with.Only things left on my" really want " list are ,a Colt SAA in .44 Spl and .38/40 , a Triple Lock in .44 SPl and a .310 Cadet Martini rifle .

I would pass on the .450 unless I really wanted a Marlin in .450 .

[W.R.Buchanan]

First the guy wants too much for the gun. That is a new gun price. Second it is chambered in .450 Marlin the problems of which have already been discussed here. Now if it was a .45-70 which is 20 times more versatile I'd then grind him down to $500.

The entire reason for the .450 Marlin caliber in the first place was so you could have hot .45-70 rounds that couldn't chamber in an Antique .45-70.

I would hand the gun back to him and say 'Have a nice day." :p

My .02

Randy