Blue Dot

[ACC]

I want to start off by saying about all the great help I have had these last few weeks. Seems everyone here is helpful, even those of us who don't know much about reloading and cast bullets. So here is one more question:

Anyone here use blue dot in the 9mm? I have tons of it and want to use it with the LEE 125 gr .357 FN bullet. Any load ideas? My bullets are dropping out of the mold at 125.3 gr.

ACC

[Winger Ed.]

I'm a big Blue Dot fan for .357, but for 9mm I always find myself drifting back to Unique.

[Cast_outlaw]

I use blue dot n 9mm for heavy loads but with a 125gr er my Hornady book says 4.8 starting and 6.6 max with a Hornady case, winchester wsp primer, so you could work off that but I believe it’s meant for heavy boolits as it is quite slow burning

[drac0nic]

Here's what I know:

-It shows about 140FPS higher velocity out of my 9mm AR carbine than Titegroup. My 4" SD9VE shows no difference in velocity with either powder. If I remember right it was about 930FPS from the pistol but I forget the rifle's numbers.
-I use 5.8gr for my loads. I start seeing pressure above this using the 125gr Lee LRN bullet with powder coat. It drops at 135gr at me.

It's certainly a favorite of mine in 9mm although it's real discernible difference is in the long guns.

[Ed_Shot]

Alliant Blue Dot is my go to powder for 9MM. For the nominal 120 gr. boolits (358242, 356402, 356-120-TC) I use Blue Dot 6.5 gr which chronys @1100 fps. For the Lee 356-125-2R I load Blue Dot 5.8 ~ 6.0 gr. I use Blue Dot because, for me, it gives outstanding performance. My alternate choice for 9MM powder is WSF. I totally agree with Winger Ed that Blue Dot is fantastic in .357 Mag.

[Conditor22]

ACC -- good source for load data (they show max loads need to start 20% less and work up)
http://castpics.net/dpl/index.php/reloaders-reference/cast-bullet-data-lookup

[ACC]

The reason I want to use it, and I will also use it in my .357, id because my brother bought 20 pounds of it cheap at the last gun show. Something like 8 dollars a pound.

ACC

[drac0nic]

The reason I want to use it, and I will also use it in my .357, id because my brother bought 20 pounds of it cheap at the last gun show. Something like 8 dollars a pound.

ACC

Seriously jelly of 8 bucks a pound. That's a score and it's a great 9mm powder.

[joebaja]

Blue Dot is one of my favorites for heavies in the 9mm (140gr and up) and that is usually around 5.8gr. I haven't tried with the boolit you mentioned. I tend towards mid-speed powders with those.

Sounds like I am going to need to start driving down to SA for gun shows if there are deals to be found like that. Especially since the hippies chased all of the shows out of Austin.

[ACC]

Blue Dot is one of my favorites for heavies in the 9mm (140gr and up) and that is usually around 5.8gr. I haven't tried with the boolit you mentioned. I tend towards mid-speed powders with those.

Sounds like I am going to need to start driving down to SA for gun shows if there are deals to be found like that. Especially since the hippies chased all of the shows out of Austin.

There is one man there who will talk serious deals if you have what he wants, or knows you will be spending some cash. If you decide to come down, let me know and I will meet you there.

ACC

[charlie b]

I used to use Blue Dot a lot. .45acp, .357 and .45Colt.

I had a pressure excursion in the colt one day (relatively light load) and stopped using it in that pistol. Still used it in the .357 until the mfg said to not use it with 125gn bullets (which are what I use in mine).

I had already switched to AA5 and AA7 for the .45's so now I use those in my .357 and 9mm as well.

I still use Blue Dot, but for subsonic loads in my .308win. It works REALLY well in that mode.

[Larry Gibson]

Over the last 10+ years I've done a lot of pressure testing of Blue Dot (both Hercules and Alliant) in numerous handgun cartridges; 32 H&R, 38 SPL, 357 Magnum, 44 magnum and 45 ACP. These have been with nominal bullet weights for the cartridge and top end loads. I have also done a lot of load development and chronographing in the 41 magnum. I have never found any indication of any "pressure excursion" or so called "pressure spiking". What I found was Blue Dot in handgun cartridges does not burn efficiently in low end loads (reduced loads) and it does not burn efficiently if heavily compressed.

When the warning came out not to use Blue Dot in the 357 and 41 Magnums I called Hercules/Alliant (?) and discussed the issue with them. Turned out they had never found any pressure excursions in their testing either but it had been "reported" to them. They issued the warning as a precaution. That was about the time several over on another forum were doing a lot of reduced loading of Blue Dot in various cartridge both handgun and bottle neck rifle cartridges with jacketed bullets. One also had a Pressure Trace system which he was not using correctly to measure .223 Rem pressures.

Bottom line is I find Blue Dot to be an excellent powder for use in top end loads in 38/44, 357, 41 and 44 Magnum cartridges. I use a lot of Blue Dot in those loads. I've no experience with Blue Dot in the 9mm and probably would not even try it as I believe there are better powders for that cartridge regardless if one got a lot of Blue Dot at a very good price. However, my problem with Blue Dot in the 9mm is because to get enough in the small case the powder is heavily compressed and it does not burn efficiently.

Now with that being said I have found Blue Dot to be a good powder in the 38 Super for use under 125 gr jacketed bullets in my Destroyer Carbine. I found at 10.4 gr there was mild compression and performance was excellent giving 1707 fps with an ES of 68 fps (10 shots). Using 10.7 gr increased the powder compression and resulted in a small velocity increase with the ES almost doubling. At 11 gr compression was pretty heavy and there was essentially no increase in velocity and the ES almost tripled. Perhaps the increase in the ES was assumed to be a "pressure excursion"? I don't know but in the 357 and 44 Magnums when the powder compression led to larger ES the psi actually went down.

[megasupermagnum]

I have always been baffled by why people claim bluedot "pressure excursions", whatever that means. It's almost become a catch-all for a reloading mistake. I've made mistakes myself, but I would never just automatically assume the fault of a product. In every case it has been my own fault. Even then, the fast powders are far more susceptible to small changes than bluedot.

Here's the truth from a long time bluedot shooter. Bluedot is one of the most mild mannered and predictable powders out there. It is also the most universal powder that has been developed this far, at least for my uses in all handguns, rifles, and of course shotguns.

That's not to say it works fantastic in all scenarios, but this idea that for no reason the powder can be dangerous is bunk. It can't be replicated in a lab, it can't be replicated by Larry Gibson or anyone else who knows how to use pressure testing equipment. It can't be replicated by me, which does not mean much.

Maybe bluedot doesn't work heavily compressed, I never tested to see if there was a correlation. I work up loads like anyone else, and choose the most accurate one. I've used bluedot in 9mm with good results before, although I do not currently own any handgun in the caliber. I do use it in 45 acp, which i find it works quite well, and I am almost certain the powder is compressed. My idea of "good" could be much different from Larry Gibson's though.

A quick search in the Lyman 50th turns up a 125 grain bullet at a 1.075" OAL. Start 6.3 grains, max 7.1 grains bluedot. The max is listed at 1163 fps from a 4" barrel. Bluedot is for strong loads, just keep that in mind if you don't want full power ammo. You can reduce it somewhat, but there are limits to everything.

[megasupermagnum]

And before it comes up, because it always comes up, bluedot works just fine in cold temperatures. I've tested comparisons between 70 degrees, and -15 degrees. Bluedot, like all old school powders looses velocity. It was still consistent though, and certainly didn't become more volatile like some claim. It performed just as well, no better or worse, than similar powders like Unique, and 800x.

[375supermag]

Hi...
I use a lot of Blue Dot in .357Mag with 158gr cast LSWC. Not at my reloading bench but believe the load is 9.8gr with a CCI SPM primer. I have loaded and shot tens of thousands of that load over the year in more than half a dozen revolvers with excellent accuracy. I used to use it with 125gr cast LSWC as well but stopped when the warnings came out years ago.
I also used it for years in .41Mag with 215gr cast LSWC but quit using it in that cartridge when the warnings came out.
I never used it in 9mm...I think there are better powders for that application. Lately, my son and I have been using Power Pistol and Titegroup with excellent accuracy in 9mm.

[charlie b]

So, the 'pressure excursion' in my .45Colt was with a 255gn bullet loaded to around 1000-1100fps. No where near a max load and, IIRC, about 50% case capacity. I had previously shot some full bore loads with it without incident. Shot it three times and then got a very loud report and heavy recoil. The chrono read right around 1600 fps. I was a bit taken aback, but, recalling the low powder density, I tipped the gun up and carefully lowered it to shoot and got another 1000fps shot. Finished the string that way. I didn't use it again in a reduced load.

[megasupermagnum]

So, the 'pressure excursion' in my .45Colt was with a 255gn bullet loaded to around 1000-1100fps. No where near a max load and, IIRC, about 50% case capacity. I had previously shot some full bore loads with it without incident. Shot it three times and then got a very loud report and heavy recoil. The chrono read right around 1600 fps. I was a bit taken aback, but, recalling the low powder density, I tipped the gun up and carefully lowered it to shoot and got another 1000fps shot. Finished the string that way. I didn't use it again in a reduced load.

You don't think there is any chance in any way you double charged, or made some other mistake? Mistakes happen to all of us, and that is most likely what you experienced. Heck, I've done it myself. Got odd numbers, and come to find out my electronic powder scale I was using was the culprit.

[charlie b]

Nope. It would have been too easy to see a full case of powder vs half case

[Four-Sixty]

In your 357 Blue Dot loads are you all using standard, or mag primers?

[Larry Gibson]

In your 357 Blue Dot loads are you all using standard, or mag primers?

I use Winchester standard WSPs in the 32 H&R, 38 SPL & 357 loads. Again I don't use Blue Dot for "reduced loads". I use Blue Dot for top end & magnum level loads. As I said earlier I've found Blue Dot does not burn efficiently with low end 'starting loads" and suspect it would be the same or even worse with a reduced load.

[charlie b]

I would second that.

FWIW, I think the problem with .357 loads was a book load that showed up for the 125gn JHP that was a bit too high. Don't know which one, I just remember one of them was several grains more than my other book loads. A couple years later came the notification not to use Blue Dot for that type bullet in the .357. I do not think it was the cause of the powder but of some incorrect published data.

There are many powders on the market that do strange things when loaded at reduced load levels, especially below 50% case volume. Which is why mfgs have starting loads as well as max loads listed. I was lucky nothing bad happened.

[rbuck351]

I bought a Ruger BH in 41mag about 1985 and started loading a lyman cast boolit that cast and lubed with gc is 225gr. I also had Blue dot for heavy loads in my shotgun so decided to use that as it was listed in Cartridges of the World at up to 17grs. Brass started to stick at 16.5 grs but pushed out easily at 16 grs. and 1480fps so that has been my cast boolit load since. Never had any issues so I still use this load even after the warnings. The new Blue Dot seems to work the same as the old so no problems with it either. Never tried to load light with BD.

[Tracy]

I used to load a lot of 140 grain JHPs in .357 Mag using the maximum load of Blue Dot that was published in Speer No. 11 loading manual. It shot well in my Ruger revolvers, but brass didn't last long.

[Larry Gibson]

I would second that.

FWIW, I think the problem with .357 loads was a book load that showed up for the 125gn JHP that was a bit too high. Don't know which one, I just remember one of them was several grains more than my other book loads. A couple years later came the notification not to use Blue Dot for that type bullet in the .357. I do not think it was the cause of the powder but of some incorrect published data...…….

I do believe you are correct on that. Years back, before I had the Oehler m43 and only had a 35P chronograph, I came into 500 Winchester 125 gr HPs shortly after I acquired a 10" 357 magnum Contender barrel. I worked up to that listed max load and had excellent results with 2100+ velocities, excellent accuracy and no apparent pressure signs. I shot most all of those 500 bullets in that Contender Barrel with that load and never had a problem. It was death and destruction on rock chucks, jack rabbits and an occasional coyote. A friend was so impressed he made me an offer for the barrel I couldn't resist.

Then I picked up my Ruger Security Six with 6" barrel and a three hundred Hornady 125 gr XTPs. I worked up to the same load of Blue Dot in it and had no pressure signs and excellent accuracy. With the M35P start screen at 15" ten shots gave an average velocity of 1690 fps [SD/16 & ES/42] and I was impressed with the load. In 2010 I picked up my current Contender test barrel and put a gauge on it to measure pressure with the M43 PBL. In rummaging around I found a box of 50 rounds of that Blue Dot/XTP load so I pressure tested it on 8/25/2011. The 2" shorter Contender test barrel still ran that load at 1940 fps. The psi ran 42,200 psi. Given the SAAMI MAP is 35,000 psi that load of Blue Dot was a bit hot. I have since backed off to a measured psi of 35,000 psi with Blue Dot under a 125 JHP. That load is running just over 1500 fps out of the Ruger with 6" barrel.

While some may consider that old load to be a "pressure excursion" it really was not.....it simply was an overload with high pressure.

[fecmech]

I've loaded a lot of 9MM with Blue Dot. I've had very good accuracy and decent ballistics with both 120TC and 147 cast. You cannot overload a 9MM case with BD,not enough room in the case!