25-20 Anyone?

[Good Cheer]

While plotting out ideas on black powder loads for the 9.3x74R and .41 Mag rifles I remembered the 25-20.
Any you guys shooting black in your 25-20's?

The .41...
Is going to be interesting. This evening it looks like one grain of powder for 0.028" of cartridge internal length. The loadings won't be 38-40 deer knockers but probably great for those feral tomato cans sneaking around the front yard.

The 9.3...
Can ol' #35809 be paper patched to work with black? Reckon I'll find out.

The 25-20...
How in the world do you make a lube cookie that small? And aint no way I'm patching them. What do yall do?

[Good Cheer]

Oh, and to the bottom of the 9.3 case neck I got 72 grains of powder.

[9.3X62AL]

No BP work with 25/20 WCF. For BP performance levels, I use Ross Seyfried's formula--take the nominal BP weight (20 grains) and multiply it by 0.4--product is 8.0 grains. Use IMR 4198 powder at that weight for about 1375-1400 FPS with the 85 grain RCBS plain base Cowboy bullet. It does fine work on small game and varmints to the size of coyotes. It tracks pretty closely with the 22 LR HV loads to 100 yards, and hits with twice their energy. With aperture irons on my Marlin 1894CL, it groups into 1.5" to 1.75" at 100 yards. I size to .258", and lube with 50/50 BW/Alox.

[vagrantviking]

Years ago did some work with black powder in the 25-20Win and didn't have a great deal of success. There are at least a few reasons for this I've learned in the meantime and will revisit it one day soon.
Issues included too hard alloy of wheel weight when it should have been 20-1 or softer, an alox based lube that seriously gums up with black powder residue and a barrel in poor shape.
Might have to try some of the substitute black powders to see if there's less fouling build up in such a small bore too.

I didn't know 4198 was an option in the 25-20. I'll have to experiment with that also!

[Chill Wills]

I load BP in a lot of the old cartridges but I won't be loading that one with black powder.

Not that it is a bad idea or you shouldn't do it, it is just that my only 25WCF rifles are 1892 Winchesters. That little bottleneck brass and a singleshot rifle might be fun loaded with BP but in my 1892 a pinch of smokeless and a well cast bullet go so well together, I may-not ever know the pleasure of shooting it the way it was first loaded.

Please let us know what you think when you do it.

[BrentD]

I used to when I owned one. Strangely, 1.5 fg shoot quite a bit better than 3 f in it. It was the 25-20 SS. Not Win.

[Lead pot]

I had a marlin .25-20 and I used sifted out blasting powder we had in the machine shop for splitting logs :) and the only hard part was the time consuming time it took to clean the cases.

[hockeynick39]

Find a small hole punch and you should be able to make your grease cookies with that. I load for a Stevens 25-20 Single Shot, not the 25-20 Winchester. Also don't use BP.

[Lead pot]

253255

[bigted]

I have seen many 25WCF guns for sale and always passed on them but ... older I get ... the more attractive they seem.

Sooooo ... am watching this with interest.

[Lead pot]

Another great .25 caliber that was short lived was the .256 Win Mag chambered in the Mod. 57 Marlin's Levermatic. The 57 was a Box magazine short throw lever action that you could flip the lever without taking your hand off the grip. The little shell was very accurate. I don't know if brass is still available but it can be made from .357 mag cases.

[shdwlkr]

lead POT no brass is not made any more by winchester, also the .256 win mag was in marlin model 62 same as was the 30 carbine. you can get the reforming dies to make brass from .357 mag brass

[Lead pot]

lead POT no brass is not made any more by winchester, also the .256 win mag was in marlin model 62 same as was the 30 carbine. you can get the reforming dies to make brass from .357 mag brass

Your right the 57 was my .22 and the 62 was my .256. It's been a while. I might still have the .256 dies.

[Good Cheer]

Can .357 Max cases be used to create a case with a longer neck?
Might be some kinda nice in a single shot.

[tucumcari_kid]

Well I've had great fun with APP and black mz in cartridges and I think that would work in 25-20. I haven't got to reloading 25-20 yet but when I do I will start with whatever phil sharpe listed for unique and bullseye. I use the 40% rule with 4227 so that would be 8 grains of 4227. I do the same with 38-40 and 44-40 and wouldn't you know the old original loads of 4227 for those rounds is 16 grains (40x.4 for you math phobes). How about powder coating bullets? You don't use lube or bullet lube with black mz.

[tucumcari_kid]

I need some 25-20 brass to begin with, or make some. Thanks goodness I have a gross of 32-20 to mess with.

[uscra112]

Find a small hole punch and you should be able to make your grease cookies with that. I load for a Stevens 25-20 Single Shot, not the 25-20 Winchester. Also don't use BP.

The old Stevens .25-20 was originally a black powder round. Appeared in the 1880s.

Another Stevens black powder .25 was the straight case .25-21.

Both were considered extremely accurate with plain base bullets of 65 to 90 grains. 3F powder was/is the usual fuel. (I admit I too am only using smokeless in mine.)

Brass for either is not cheap now, and as it has a unique base diameter it's hard to form from any common modern brass. I've made .25-20 from .223, but it's a brutal process. Best route for most folks is to watch for Griffin & Howe .22 Lovell cases on Gunbroker. Anneal and expand the necks to .25 caliber. The Lovell was a hot wildcat formed from .25-20, and they used it all up, so it's poetic justice in a way to convert Lovell back to it's parent.

There is lathe turned brass available, but it's $4 a case. You can get by with only a few, because only single-shots were ever made for either of them.

There is a guy in the ASSRA who has built a fast twist .25-20 WCF single shot bench gun, and is regularly shooting phenomenal 200 yard targets with it, using 120+ grain plain base bullets and smokeless.

[WBH]

Back in August RayO was selling 95 of the cases. You can find them. Starline might start making them soon, who knows!

Its a fun cartridge. Ive been looking for one in a Win 1873 to go with my 32-20 and 44-40.

[PositiveCaster]

As stated, the .25-20 WCF was always a smokeless cartridge. The straight walled .25 caliber BP cartridges were SS only and while accurate had disadvantages compared to the .28s and .32s.

I actually tried holy black in my Marlin M1894CL with a 90-grain cast bullet, but I didn’t do much load development. Results were not encouraging. The original .25-20 WCF smokeless loads were highly corrosive and damaged many/most bores through pitting. I now use only smokeless in mine.


.

[Oyeboten]

I loaded up a bunch of 32-20 Black Powder, but have not tried them yet. No Rifle for these, I only have a Revolver.

Will load some 9.3 x 62 in BP, just for fun sometime soon also, see what that is like...have the old IDEAL Mold for it, and will be getting fifty of those Cast up this week...should be respectable I'd think...I'll chrono them and see what they do.

[Chill Wills]

As stated, the .25-20 WCF was always a smokeless cartridge. The straight walled .25 caliber BP cartridges were SS only and while accurate had disadvantages compared to the .28s and .32s.

I actually tried holy black in my Marlin M1894CL with a 90-grain cast bullet, but I didn’t do much load development. Results were not encouraging. The original .25-20 WCF smokeless loads were highly corrosive and damaged many/most bores through pitting. I now use only smokeless in mine. .

From memory, which I admit is only about an inch long these days, in Mike Venterino's book on lever rifles, I thought I read that the 25-20 WCF (Marlin chambered first) was a BP round. (?)
I am not near the house this week so can't check until later.

At first glance the 32-20 and the 25-20 seem to be occupying the same space in the need to shoot things. Kinda like the 44WCF and the 38-40. But I think the 25-20 is about right for small game. The 32-20 is really able to handle the next class game up to small deer at closer ranges that the 25 really would be a stretch for. (assuming the 32-20 is loaded right)
I have two lever 25-20's and really enjoy them - so much so, I am starting to rebarrel a project low wall action to 25-20 WCF this winter.

[BrentD]

I had a .25-20 SS low wall. It was a little much for squirrels and tore them up pretty bad with black powder loads. Also launching that bullet skyward was a little disconcerting. I think it would be great for turkeys (where legal), javelina, coyotes, ext. But a bit much for the squirrel and rabbit dinner rifle, albeit, torn up heads are just messy, not damaging to the meat.

The .25-20 was surprisingly noisy too. But it was a fun gun and a cool cartridge nonetheless.

[Chill Wills]

I had a .25-20 SS low wall. Also launching that bullet skyward was a little disconcerting.

Yes. I agree with that for sure. Around the homested we just use the very under powered 177 springer. But accuracy trumps power.
In the wilderness, of which there is a lot near me, it is not near the problem. However, it is always best to keep in mind what is beyond anywhere you shoot.

This class of size and power also is good for head shots on blue grouse but I have only used the 22 Hornet on then. Not the 25-20 - yet.
Blue grouse are surprisingly good eating despite or rather, considering their diet.

[uscra112]

FWIW Barnes says that Winchester was loading the .25-20 Marlin and the .25-20 WCF with black powder as well as smokeless as late as 1916.

The introduction dates for both cartridges seem to be 1893 to 1895, a time when there was very, very little in the way of smokeless powder available in the USA. An NRA document I found states that the first maker was a company called Anglo-American Explosives, which started making a shotgun powder in 1890. DuPont's first smokeless plant wasn't opened until 1892.

Which leaves me a bit skeptical of any statement to the effect that the WCF round was "always a smokeless powder round". Even if it was, I'd wager long odds that shooters reloading it used black.

Some advanced cartridge collector may have ammo boxes of the 1893/95 period, I suppose.

[square butte]

I've looked at so many 25-20 wcf's with sewer pipe bores that i have always suspected black powder loadings. Then there are the corrosive primers

[.22-10-45]

No .25-20 but I do have a .25-25 Stevens chambered original Ballard. Some time in distant past, this rifle was re-bored/chambered from .22 rimfire to .25-25 Stevens. Since it is a cast action, I have decided to only use real (HOLY) black. I have been shooting 3FG Swiss and bullets cast in original Ideal molds using 20-1 lead-tin alloy. lube is SPG. I was worried about fouling in this small bore..but using blow tube, I can keep all shots in an inch at 50yds. However, for match grade accuracy, I need to wipe after each shot...no big deal..1 barely damp patch thru, leaving bore damp, dry patch chamber & groups at 50yds. are 3/8"! During some hot dry weather, I had a patch of hard baked on fouling in throat. a .032" beeswax wad on powder with a 1/8" SPG grease wad on top of that and thin card wad under bullet took care of that. I did try du-plexing with smokeless...and while bore after 1 shot looked like a straight smokeless load had been fired, It still needed that barely damp patch thru for match accuracy..so I thought why bother? This little .25 is just about the most fun gun I have to shoot.

[Gunlaker]

No experience with the .25-20 WCF, but I once owned a Stevens 44 in .25-20 SS. It was a neat little cartridge and I only shot it with BP. I didn't keep the rifle too long as the bore wasn't really good enough for accurate shooting. It sure fouled up easily. Much more so than even the .32-40. I think the small bores are way pickier with respect to fouling build up.

I ended up selling it and getting a CPA. Before then I was thinking seriously about a really well kept Stevens Model 47 in .25-20 SS. That would have been a fun little rifle. My main concern was the difficulty in getting brass.

Chris.

[Lead pot]

I've looked at so many 25-20 wcf's with sewer pipe bores that i have always suspected black powder loadings. Then there are the corrosive primers


Most of those sewer pipe bores was caused more by the mercuric priming compound than the black powder.
Alsoback in that time mercury as in common use for cleaning lead out of the bore.