Carcano

[richhodg66]

Stopped in my LGS for a minute this evening and he had the cleanest Carcano I've ever seen. Obviously a cavalry carbine and in 6.5. More elaborate adjustable rear sight than I've seen on them before too. Every number on it I could find matched, no import stamps, apparently a true war bring back

Never had much interest in one, but this one is almost pristine. Never know what's gonna turn up in your local pawn shop.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Gonna buy it? :D

[richhodg66]

Probably not. Just unusual, most you see are such dogs. I wonder if there are serious collectors of them out there somewhere?

[Bazoo]

What were they asking for it?

[smithnframe]

The specimens with the "elaborate " rear sight are more collectible than most!

[richhodg66]

What were they asking for it?

It was in the four and a half ball park. I know the guy pretty well and could probably deal a bit, but he'll likely get it and I think his plan is to put it on Gunbroker.

The same guy who brought that one in had brought in a couple of other war trophies that were a lot nicer and generally more collectible which had already sold. I guess Grandpa's heirs selling off his stuff.

I know very little about Carcanos, but ad read enough from guys on here that their rep for being lousy shooters is undeserved if you feed them proper diameter bullets. This one looked practically new, I didn't get a real good look down the bore but what I could see looked good.

[richhodg66]

The specimens with the "elaborate " rear sight are more collectible than most!

All the ones I've ever seen before appeared to have non adjustable sights. Rear sights looked like a steel block bolted on and nothched with a hack saw. This one yesterday was real clean and nice with an odd adjustment mechanism.

[fast ronnie]

I've kind of been looking for one and was in a lgs a couple of weeks ago, low and behold, there was one in the rack. Unfortunately, it had been bubba'd.

[Pressman]

Talking about the 6.5 caliber here. There's nothing wrong, structurally, with a Carcano. They are just butt ugly. My first was a very nice looking carbine that would not hit the broad side of a barn. It turned out to be a cut down rifle that had progressive twist rifling. I had it rebarreled to 308", 7.62x39 and it shot well. The Italian gunsmith who worked on it grumbled about the lack of square on the receiver to index his tooling.

I have two rifle actions, no stocks currently waiting for something? One I dropped into a '98 Mauser stock and it will get fired this spring.

I like the cartridge, it is mild to shoot and nice to reload, with the correct diameter boolits. I need to source more of them.

That carbine the OP mentioned would look good in my safe.

Ken

[Drm50]

The only 6.5 military rifle I had that shot well other than Sweede was a 1903.Greek Mannlicher. I've had bunches of Carcanos when I was a kid and military ammo was easy to get. They all shot lousy. I have dies for Carcano and I've never loaded any in the 40yrs I've had the dies. I was 12 when JFK got whacked and at that age couldn't believe he was shot with a Carcano. That's when they were in barrels at stores for $10 and mil surp ammo was cheap. When cheap ammo dried up so did Carcano market.

[wnc435]

When loading cast for these I used a bullet for my .270 that took 2 steps to size down. Made my own push through dies. As bad as the bore looks it still shoots well. but the brown painted Bubba'd super dooper custom sets it apart from most.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Well, if it's not your thing, then don't make the investment. Most old military rifles have gone way up in price, so for us who bought them when they were (in the case of Carcanos) $15, or in the day of $39.95 Lee Enfields, have seen a significant increase in our investment while having loads of fun loading for them and shooting them along the way. But, there's no guarantee that they will continue to increase in value; anyway not to the extent and at the rate that they have done to date.

I could have done better in the Carcano dept., as I was just a kid when they first became so readily available at such very low prices, and being a kid I believed the anti-Carcano propaganda that was circulating about them being unsafe to shoot. In later years when I came to my senses I did become interested in them, but the cream of the crop was pretty much sold off. I did end up with several in my accumulation, and two of the are the WW II M-1941 version in pristine condition. I did get one of the moschetto carbines with the folding bayonet in just so-so condition with a cracked stock, a M-38 that had been given to Finland, a 1924 carbine, and an M-38 converted to 8mm Mauser which is pretty much a single shot as 8mm clips are non-existent. Perhaps they exist somewhere....... Anyway, I've come to respect them as being a very worthy military arm of the period, and wouldn't turn another down at the right price and condition, but am not actively looking. Hope the one you spotted in the pawn shop finds a good home...not Bubba's!

[RustyReel]

I picked up a Bubbaed a short while ago at a gunshow. The forend had been cut, bolt poorly altered and the received d/t for a side mount (but center bore mounted) scope. Cheap scope was so dirty you could barely see light thru it, but the rifle came with 30 rounds of factory boxer primed ammo and one clip. Not a big Carcano fan but what the heck.

Scope made it impossible to use the clip so had to load it single shot while using the scope, which cleaned up enough to be useable. Action is rough so I'm guessing late war. Bolt is hard to close as a singe shot as the extractor has to jump over the rim of the cartridge and is then a bit difficult to open, probably because of the poorly altered bolt.

Shot minute of deer (4"/10 rounds) at 50 yards using PPU factory stuff. Cast shot a little better (3"/10 Rounds) using a Lyman 266469 GC and PC'd to .269 or so. Need to work with it a little more.

Ended up selling off a few of the stock parts I didn't need as the rifle had already been altered. Those parts ended up offsetting the cost of the whole package so if it never shoots better than is does now I'm fine with it. I would sell the rear sight and actually make a little money on the package if I could figure out how to get the darn thing off!

[nekshot]

Here's another one that should have bought them 40 years ago. Of course the sneers from my peers kept me from buying them. I kinda got one at a auction and the barrel was loose so I got it very resonable. The barrel ended up being a x39 so I cranked it on and have been enjoying them ever since. I have another rebarreled into a 35 rem and if I could get more actions I would have one in 25 remmy,32 remmy, 357 max, and something in 7mm. I really like the simplicity of them, their strength, and fabulous trigger when cleaned and stoned a little. I am not interested in good war trophy's as I prefer the hacked up bubba guns.

[abunaitoo]

If your thinking about it.
The bullet for the 6.5 Carcano is .268 not .264.
You'll need to find a BIG FAT 6.5 mold.

[semtav]

Bought a nice carbine years ago at an auction cause it was cheap ( about $15) . Found some shells a few years later and shot it with horrible results. FFwd to present and found out about the oversize bore. So in my search for a good mould, i also found a good rifle and bought it. The rifle shoots great with the .268 bullets. Still havent tried the carbine but bet it does too.

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[MostlyLeverGuns]

My Carcano was $9.95 back in 1965. Wouldn't shoot jacketed, the Lyman Loverin dropped at .268 and accuracy was decent for open sight 2-3" at 100 yds. I think I remeber a fancy rear sight on that one too. The old Carcano joke, LIKE NEW - Never Fired - DROPPED ONCE.

[Drm50]

Back in the day they were selling mil Surps out of barrels like base ball bats there were some headspace troubles in a lot of them because guns were slapped together to make salable rifles by importers. I never herd of any blowing up but some did blow cartridge cases off and Carcano was suppose to be high on the list. The 91 & 95 Mausers must have had closer tolerances that a bolt switch would be close enough to fire without problems.

[Bob Busetti]

Strange how times change. Back in the early nineties a LGS ran by a friend of mine gave me a call to come get some junk out of his shop. He gave me 3 Carcano carbines that an elderly lady brought in to get them out of her house. All 6.5. I still have one of them. Fun to shoot.

[abunaitoo]

I've always wanted to get a Carcano.
Never found one that I liked.
Closest I got to one is a "Type I" Arisaka.

[nekshot]

When I was researching the German or whoever rebarreled them to 8x57 during ww2 proofed them at 73,500 psi.

[frkelly74]

I was doing some work back in the 80's in a ladies house and saw an old Carcano rifle standing in the corner of the dining room. I had to look at it and immediately saw that the bolt was missing. So I asked about it and the answer I got was that her husband had been going through Italy with the invasion and Italian soldiers were surrendering right and left. When the rifles were handed over the bolts were taken out and disappeared somewhere and the boltless rifles were handed out to be taken home by the GIs. That was the story I was told and I have no reason to doubt it.

[Uncle Grinch]

Used to have a Nice Carcano several years ago. Sold it in search of another milsurp.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?95186-Carcano-Trade&highlight=Carcano

[asdf]

When I was researching the German or whoever rebarreled them to 8x57 during ww2 proofed them at 73,500 psi.

Those were the Krieghoff conversions from 1945. They tried to get them to work with clips, but it proved unreliable with the 8X57, so they blocked off the magazine well with a wooden plug and made them single shot. These were to be last-ditch weapons for the Volkssturm, but few were used. Since they were professionally converted by a reputable gunmaker, the conversions were quite good quality and carbines bearing the "HK" stamp (if authentic) are sought after. Not so sought after are the motley bunch of post-war quickie conversions done by various Italian factories for the Arab market. (The Arab nations used 8X57, being pro-Nazi during the war and with a ready supply of surplus ammo.) The post-war conversions are very hit-and-miss, some worse than others because they crudely ground away some of the receiver ring to make the longer rounds feed.

The high proof readings are real. FOR THEIR SIZE, they're very strong. Their trashed condition and bus-fare sticker prices years ago started people thinking that they were poorly made. Numerous tests in recent years have proven otherwise. They were made of good-quality steel, using a Czech formula. The Carcano's biggest failing is the lack of gas vents, making a case rupture potentially more lethal.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

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Click to enlarge.
Well, here's my 8mm conversion. I did reblue it, and refinish the stock about 20 years ago. Interestingly, it is a carbine version probably originally made before WW II, not the Moschetto with the folding bayonet. I have one or two photos in one of the WW II history books showing the Volkssturm (mostly middle aged to old guys in civilian clothing) enroute to the defense of Berlin with the Moschetto version slung across their backs. I don't know if they were in 8mm or not, as time was running short for conversions. When I bought this rifle, the importer said that it came from Israel.

However, there are many stories about these rifles, and none of them easy to pin down. It is a subject that continues to interest me, having one, and being interested in history. One story is that following the massive defeat of the Italian Army in N. Africa the Germans converted some of these rifles to 8mm to simplify ammunition supply for the units that continued to fight along side of them. Then, the same story is told about the Germans having converted these rifles for those Italians remaining loyal to fascism after the surrender of the Italian government for the fighting in Italy proper. There is also the story about them having been converted as last ditch weapons for the Volkssturm. Also, stories about them having been converted in Israel for the war that ensued immediately following their independence. Frankly, I don't know, but sure wish I did. There may be truth to any or all of these accounts. There seem to be no authoritative books on the subject--you know--those hardback, glossy covered books that cost $95. :shock:

After I overhauled the pictured rifle I shot it for several rounds with ammo I had specially loaded to approximate the .30-30 Win. I'm not lacking in courage, but take no unnecessary chances. I am happy to report that it was very accurate and pleasant to shoot. So then the search for some 8mm clips began. You would think that some must exist, but I've never found one. There are several U-Tube films (or used to be--haven't checked for several years) about how to convert the 6.5mm/7.35mm clips to use 8mm, but none seemed really satisfactory. So there it sits in my collection, useable only as a single shot. The mystery of the clips and exactly who converted these rifles is something I'll likely never really know. :coffeecom

[asdf]

[QUOTE=Der Gebirgsjager

.....When I bought this rifle, the importer said that it came from Israel.....

....The mystery of the clips and exactly who converted these rifles is something I'll likely never really know....[/QUOTE]

Not quite sure why you feel there's a great mystery surrounding the 8x57 conversions; it's been well researched. The Krieghoff conversion contract for Volkssturm weapons is hardly a "story". It's well-documented, even to the numbers done and markings on the rifles involved, which is why they're more desirable. The Arab-bound weapons are less documented, not because of any great secrecy, but because an unknown number of small companies were involved, post-war Italy was a chaotic place, and the Italians did not exactly have Germany's reputation for meticulous record-keeping. If your dealer was correct and you rifle did come from Israel (and we all know that salesmen's stories are meticulously researched and invariably accurate :wink:), then it was captured from territory overrun during one of the several wars, not supplied to Israel. In fact, the Carcano's saw little front line service in Arab hands. The Egyptians used theirs strictly for training and drill; the Syrians didn't even take delivery in the end.

The "mystery of the clips" may be part of the reason. Thousands of these rifles were converted, and yet no one seems to have any 8mm Carcano clips. It is frequently suggested that, if a prestigious gun firm like Heinrich Krieghoff's couldn't make them feed 8mm reliably, why should anyone expect a collection of post-war operators in war-shattered Italy to succeed where the Germans had failed? Without reliable clips, Carcanos are just awkward single-shots, which may explain their lack of combat use. Many examples are beaten-up, but few are shot-out!

[Earlwb]

Years ago I had bought a small batch of rifles where the seller had purported them to be Afrika Corps guns. Some were 6.5, maybe some 7.35, and some in 8mm. It was years later before I figured out that the guns were likely made for the Arabs after the war. I mainly bought them for the actions at the time anyway. so it wasn't a big deal. I think that the cute little carbine in 8mm would have to kick like a mule, if you fired it with full house rounds.

[Texas by God]

I'm going to look at a "Japtalian" Carcano this week. Interesting rifles, no enbloc clips required.

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[copperlake]

When I was researching the German or whoever rebarreled them to 8x57 during ww2 proofed them at 73,500 psi.

I think a Carcano is perhaps the strongest (old) military action ever made in terms of being able to blow it up, setting aside gas, safety wing leaving etc. I couldn't do when I tried. I'm toying with turning one into a 350 Legend with no fear.