Observations from LE Retiree Requals

[Outpost75]

Sharing here an article edited from an email exchange among firearms instructors, with thanks to Dean Caputo:
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For the last 25+ years I have qualified hundreds of retired officers (mostly males). Every December for probably 50+ years our department has the “Chiefs Breakfast”, usually qualing 30+ officers afterwards.

We have talked at length about which range performance and range drills drive the weapon selection decision. Since most of what your doing with your concealed firearm is not shooting (99+%) other factors should come into the decision making process, like reliable safe gun handling, safe firearm carrying, etc., but to what standard?

Something reasonable, maybe 3-5 yards, would be far looking at most self defense shootings (and I’ve investigated quite a few). Rapid drawing probably will not come into play.

What firearm selection and qual standards should retired officers have? Some believe it should be the same standard as current on the job officers. Myself and other fellow RMs tend to disagree as the “problem” these retired officers will face (and VERY infrequently) is generally the same “problem” an off-duty or retired LEO (or licensed CCW civilian) will face.

Really, most retirees will forget how to properly handle the auto and only need to be able to hit a sheet of typing paper from 5-6 feet away. That’s easily accomplished with a J frame (LCR, Cobra, etc) without any handling errors that could cause an ND possibly with tragic consequences.

Where am I going with this info? Well, I have now requalled several hundred retired officers from my department. For 25-30 YEARS each one of them had to shoot 70+% or better to pass MONTHLY. Almost all ended their career with an auto (we allowed 1911s since the mid 70’s). Most carried an auto for over a decade and qualified with it regularly.

So now for my observations and those of other FTU members who have conducted or assisted. We run requals now with 2 members ever since the ND in the ready room by a former Chief with his 9mm that he carried for 30 yrs. One checking in the retirees, making sure they enter the range 1 at a time with an unloaded weapon pointed in a safe direction (this being the most dangerous spot of the two.) Other RMs that conduct retiree quals (maybe not this many all at the same time) throughout the year have the same observations as me.

I qualify my retirees at 5 yards (most agencies I have polled do the same to maybe 7 yards) and they fire 15-20 rds (10,000 sworn LASD shoot 6-10 rds.) I want to see 70-80% inside a bottle target.

Interestingly I have rarely had an officer that could not hit the target very well usually exceeding 75+%. I am talking about retirees with only 1 good arm (stroke), barely ambulatory using a cane (this year one just out of surgery for a back surgery fusing vertebrae’s), several after open heart surgery, stage 4 cancer receiving treatment, double knee replacement (shuffled onto the range), Parkinson’s onset, etc. Contrary to what some would feel these fragile retirees are potential crime victims and really need a gun more than most for self protection.

I have them shoot 2 handed (if they can), 1 handed right and left (if they can). Again, they have almost always shot great. I don’t do any drawing as I’ve found most rarely carry their gun in a holster on their person and to reduce the likelihood of an ND.

However, the one consistent thing I have observed (and other RMs I’ve had this discussion with) is a complete erosion of gun handling skill. I don’t mean a little I mean a lot to an unsafe level. Also, numerous malfunctions, and FTFs because of forgetting to chamber a round, remove a safety, etc. Malfunctions seem to be related to maintenance neglect, lack of lubrication, etc.

This year I lost count of all the malfunctions and FTF because of forgetting to disengage a safety. About half brought along a revolver (usually a J frame) as an extra gun or as their primary. I (fortunately) had no .380s, .32s etc this year (they almost always malfunction)

I had zero malfunctions with the revolvers. All had no problem qualifying to the standard with their revolver (most with those tiny factory grips and sights most told me they had trouble seeing).

How does this compare to past years? In 25 years of doing this I have never seen a malfunction with a revolver. Sure, some where I had to pound out the corroded empties, but the gun still went BANG~! Again most were J frames and a few Colt snubbies.

I’ve never had a year where I did not observe NUMEROUS auto malfunctions.
Almost all have not shot or taken care of their gun since the last year qual.

Reminds me of Darryl Bolke’s line that
"Revolvers put up with neglect but not abuse, autos put up with abuse but not neglect.:


My point with this long diatribe is if we constantly spout you just need to train more frequently to keep up gun handling skills. I’m not sure there is much retention of these skills. Even some of our “gun guys”, on the shooting team etc, seem to retain little.

More and more I think a revolver is the right answer for most.

Although it rarely happens (SD shooting with your non dominant hand), as I stated I’ve had a reasonably high amount of retirees with the use of only one arm/hand. Sometimes this was their dominant hand. Numerous canes, strokes, heart attacks, walkers, crutches, etc. Sometimes one arm was needed to steady themselves with a cane or a crutch. This year the retiree from back surgery had a plan to just drop his cane during the drawstroke (but he is an old gun guy that actually wears a gun in a holster. Although he had 3 malfunctions.)

My comment about most not carrying their gun in a holster mostly means they usually don’t carry a gun. I always tell them you don’t get to plan your gunfight but they have survived this long and obviously are going to do whatever they want. The guns sometimes arrive in a holster to the range but it is being used as a transportation device. About half arrive with the gun in their hand, paper bag, zipper gun pouch, etc.

Occasionally some listen to suggestions..the following tidbit from a well known GunSite instructor:

During the years that I taught Arizona CWP courses (and beyond), I was repeatedly intrigued by people who told me that they didn't intend to carry a holstered gun on the street but like to keep one in the car when they travel.

One of the first times that I heard that was from a prospective student, back in Douglas, when I queried him as to gun and holster that he'd be bringing to the range session of my course.

"I've heard that before. Maybe you can explain to me why you feel more need for a gun, rolling down the highway at 65 mph, surround by at least 3,000 pounds of relatively bullet-resistant steel and glass, than when you're walking down the street covered by only a few layers of cloth."


Up here it was, "I don't really need to carry a gun up here but I like to have one in the car when I drove down to the Valley."

I said "You are aware that Navajo County has the highest per capita methamphetamine abuse in the nation, aren't you? And methamphetamine is not exactly a drug that mellows out its users?"


The older that I get, the less concerned than I am when others fail to heed my advice, so long as I'm not counting on them for backup and they remain downrange of me. Within the last 24 hours, I've had an exchange of email with an erstwhile colleague and student, back when I was still assisting in LFI. He had previously queried me with a suggestion for speedloader carry. This was his latest:

"Saw a suggestion for using a #3 Rx bottle to carry a speedloader...I find it easy to twist the cap off (I don’t screw it on tight) with my non-dominant hand, drop the loader into my grip with the twist button slipping between my thumb and index finger, and pull the loader out already in position to operate."

(Really???)

I believe that it's the Second Corollary to Murphy's Law that states that nothing can be made foolproof because fools are so ingenious.

They can't grasp that it's probably not worth bothering with the bulk of a speedloader if it's going to take you that long to get it into operation.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Interesting read. Much truth there. I think practice at something over 5 yds. would be better, perhaps 15 yds. One has to consider a closing aggressor who can rapidly come to contact, so if they're displaying a weapon and intent, then 5 yds. is awful close. Of course, if the retiree's weapon is out in the car........:shock:

[Rattlesnake Charlie]

All skills diminish without polishing.

I hang out with a small group of old farts, and our skills displayed are proportional to how often we get to the range. A couple of us shoot IDPA/USPA/Steel which gets us out once or twice a month. Until winter sets in. Then we hope to get to the indoor range once a month. Organizing a meal after a range session does improve participation. Seniors enjoy social events too!

[onelight]

Very interesting , this reinforces my observations that many officers are not very gun savvy , that is not a put down we all have different interests . But to many the gun is just another tool on the belt like keys or cuffs.

But they are not all like that . I shot with a retired OKC detective today , retired in 1977 mid 80s on oxygen he came to the range with his cc gun in a holster set in a chair shooting off hand and spent the next hour shooting 1 hole 5 shot groups at 7 yards with a 9mm Glock and a S&W .357 all were his reloads , a fine man I feel privileged and blessed to know.

[Idz]

Even the dumbest attacker knows to get as close as possible before alerting you to the attack.

[rfd]

EDC means just that, whether in shorts and a T or bundled up in snow suit parka. always carried daily. added to the morning dress up list: cellphone, wallet, keys, CCW. no matter what.

this is where a j-frame shines. it's always on the ready and will be the easiest to conceal, always safe, no failures to feed or extract, and if the cartridges are built reasonably well the little snubby will always bark.

the nay-say possible concerns ... is five rounds enuf? will a snubby require continued practice to be proficient or remain proficient? can *everyone* be reasonably 3-5 yards center mass accurate with a .38spl SD built cartridge?

or, if there are serious concerns with part of all of the above paragraph, is any gun better than no gun, and consider EDC with a .22rf snubby?

[junkbug]

I understand what neglect is as far as this article is relating to. What would be typical abuse?

[Outpost75]

I understand what neglect is as far as this article is relating to. What would be typical abuse?

Shooting +P in an Airweight J-frame!

[ReloaderFred]

I conduct quarterly HR-218 qualifications for about 180 retired cops, since that's how many are on my email list at the present time. I've had them arrive in a wheelchair, on crutches, using canes and some as spry as the day they retired. Our qualification course of fire is 25 rounds, from 2 yards to 10 yards, and all from the holster.

I've been doing this since HR-218 was first passed into law, and some of the retirees hadn't shot in many, many years when we first started. Some needed assistance when we first started, and some didn't, but the most noticeable thing I and the other instructors have noticed is the improvement we've seen in gun handling skills and general marksmanship over the years. Perhaps it's because we require 100% of the rounds go into the center of the target. The center of the target we use is about the size of a sheet of copy paper. We've eliminated timed fire and getting on the ground, since the average age of my group is probably around 70 years old. Face it, we're not going to be running and gunning like we did when we were young and full of energy. Some have told me that in all the years they were on the job, nobody emphasized looking at the front sight like I do, and it's helped them put rounds on target where they count.

In all these years, we've yet to have an accidental/negligent discharge during the qualifications. I've had as many as 42 show up to be qualified, and as few as 12, like last Tuesday when it was pouring rain. There are three of us conducting these qualifications, all former firearms instructors for our respective departments. I'm the only one who did it full time, since my department was large enough to require a full time range master, with over 600 sworn officers, plus reserves and allied agencies.

We've had a few come to the realization that it was time to hang up the gun on their own, and voluntarily stopped, due to health issues. They knew it was time and they were smart enough to take the action themselves.

This is a subject that I consider near and dear, and I could write reams about it, but I won't. Suffice it to say, I'll keep conducting the HR-218 qualifications as long as I'm able, and the retirees keep coming.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[bigted]

This is very interesting. Thanks Outpost for beginning it with another fun and interesting article.

[sonoransixgun]

Great food for thought....thanks for posting...

[drac0nic]

Shooting +P in an Airweight J-frame!

Gotta ask if that's abuse on the gun or the shooter?

Seriously though, there's a reason j-frames are still super popular after ~70 years of production and even with the emergency of tactical tupperware. There's just some things that can be done with them like firing in a jacket pocket or they don't go out of battery if you have someone against you like a semi will. Yeah there's crimp jump and stuff like that which are risks but nothing's perfect.

[wnc435]

I am just happy when I see our boy's in blue at the range practicing. Practice may not = perfection but being familiar with the tools of the trade sure makes the incident rate go way down. Also makes me feel safer that they aren't going to be a statistic for the wrong people to use. Just my opinion. Thanks to them I get to have that opinion.

[Outpost75]

Gotta ask if that's abuse on the gun or the shooter?

Seriously though, there's a reason j-frames are still super popular after ~70 years of production and even with the emergency of tactical tupperware. There's just some things that can be done with them like firing in a jacket pocket or they don't go out of battery if you have someone against you like a semi will. Yeah there's crimp jump and stuff like that which are risks but nothing's perfect.

To answer your question, Yes and YES! 8-)

[rfd]

To answer your question, Yes and YES! 8-)

253186 253186

[buckwheatpaul]

A great bunch of posts.....it would help if each state had a uniform requalify for retired l.e. with a 10 to 15 yd. maximum distance of shooting.....been retired from large p.d. and they still make you do their officer qualify.....we qualify with a small p.d. that mirrors what has been said so far of these posts.

[edp2k]

I understand what neglect is as far as this article is relating to. What would be typical abuse?

My take on "abuse": one example is using the pistol as a bludgeon, planned or not
(i.e. wack the guy over the head instead of shooting him, either as a planned part of the interaction or
something that just happens in the scuffle/wrestling match).

Or the gun is dropped or thrown. Stuff happens in a fight.

On a revolver, if the cylinder is banged just right, you may bend/jam the cylinder axis pin or bolt/cylinder-locking-latch.
On old revolvers without a shroud over the ejector rod, if the rod gets bent (by any of the above actions) then the gun
may not cycle or be able to eject brass.

An auto like a 1911 has large relatively thick rails which can take impacts without deformation and loss of function.

[Outpost75]

My take on "abuse": one example is using the pistol as a bludgeon, planned or not
(i.e. wack the guy over the head instead of shooting him, either as a planned part of the interaction or
something that just happens in the scuffle/wrestling match).

Or the gun is dropped or thrown. Stuff happens in a fight.

On a revolver, if the cylinder is banged just right, you may bend/jam the cylinder axis pin or bolt/cylinder-locking-latch.
On old revolvers without a shroud over the ejector rod, if the rod gets bent (by any of the above actions) then the gun
may not cycle or be able to eject brass.

An auto like a 1911 has large relatively thick rails which can take impacts without deformation and loss of function.

Excellent explanation! My S&W Model 36 no-dash was similarly abused and Sandy Garrett at NoVA Gun Works had to straighten the frame, align the crane, refit center pin, set back barrel, correct loose headspace and end-shake, etc. Could have bought a new gun for the repair bill, but the revolver and I had history and scrapping it would have been like putting down an experienced K9 rather than letting it live a pampered life in retirement. Gun is accurate and reliable again and is now the "Church Gun."

[junkbug]

Thanks for the many explanations!

[Bigslug]

We concluded the standard officer's backup/off-duty course was good enough for the retired guys.

You can't run a high-stress course with retired folks because, well, some of them retired for medical reasons in the first place.

You also have to assume that they're not training to the same level they were when it was mandated. Sometimes they surprise you, but it's not the way to bet.

Once they leave, you've got little or no control over what they carry or choose to qual with. A 25 yard bullseye course is no place for a PPK.

Single hand firing with each hand (provided they can) to about 5 yards is a realistic thing for them to expect. Two-hand firing to maybe ten yards allows you to verify they aren't an excessive danger to bystanders.

Not something one needs to go overboard on.

[Outpost75]

Great feedback from all. The independent validation is appreciated. Good info here.

[jrayborn]

I'm curious why retired officers must re-qualify? I have never been LEO and am both interested and ignorant...

[Der Gebirgsjager]

My opinion, jrayborn, it's because we all get old. Retired officers are no different than the general public. Conditions such as dementia, very poor eyesight, palsy, would be good reasons to have them put their guns away; plus, as indicated in some of the posts by folks involved with requalification, a deterioration in shooting skills would endanger bystanders. Periodic requalification acts as a screening process, and hopefully those not qualifying lose their carry privileges.

[ReloaderFred]

I'm curious why retired officers must re-qualify? I have never been LEO and am both interested and ignorant...

The retirees have to qualify annually to be able to carry concealed nationwide under HR-218, the same as working peace officers. Their retired ID card and the annual qualification card is their permit to carry.

Some will question why retired peace officers have the right to carry after leaving the job? My answer is because the people we arrested are now getting out of prison, for one thing. The other is that even though we're retired, we didn't leave our instincts behind when we left the job. We see things others don't, and some of them can be harmful...........

Hope this helps.

Fred

[jrayborn]

Oh I see, that makes a lot of sense, and I certainly support it. Thanks for letting me know. I had no idea what HR-218 was and it sure seems to be good thinking to me.

[ReloaderFred]

The law has been in effect since 2004, and was signed by George Bush. The Federal statute is: Title 18 U.S.C., Chapter 44, Section 926C. It's been amended a few times over the years, but the basic law is still the same. If I remember correctly, it was signed in late summer, or early fall of 2004. We started holding qualifications in December, 2004, and have been doing it ever since.

As a side note, the backers of HR-218 intended it to be the "camel's nose under the tent", so to speak. It was hoped that by getting this law passed, after many years of trying and failing, it would open the door for nationwide recognition of state's CCW/CHL licenses for everyone, much like drivers licenses. The main opposition has come from the expected states and they've been able to stop it every time it's been introduced.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[Idz]

George Bush signed the law in 2004. It exempts qualified law enforcement and retirees from the tangled morass of state and local concealed carry laws that the civilians are forced to endure.

[Outpost75]

I may be branded as a heretic for this statement, but IMHO many state qual courses are influenced too much by NRA police training and "gamers" rather than by street cops or field agents having recent operational experience. Personally I would rather see something based on WW1 and WW2 British instinctive revolver doctrine instead of much of the current crop of tripe which seems based too much on movie and TV fantasy rather than analysis of OIS.

Prior to WW1 service pistol practice in the British Army was one-handed, single-action slow fire. Shooting was conducted at 30 paces on 8-inch bullseye targets. Two-handed or double-action shooting were not taught. Rapid, continuous fire was expected only in an extreme emergency. Revolver drills in the Musketry Regulations 1909-1914 emphasized deliberate single-action fire “executed with alacrity.” This changed rapidly upon onset of The Great War, as Boer War veterans brought their experience to the fore...

Trench warfare spurred the development of “practical pistol shooting” as we know it today. Revolvers, Mill’s bombs, cutlasses, hatchets, and clubs were the preferred armament carried on trench raids. In 1916 Capt. C.D. Tracy and Capt. J.B.L. Noel produced the “Instructional Course for the Webley Pistol,” which emphasized instinctive point shooting.

Its objective was for every soldier armed with a revolver to be able to accomplish “The War Shot” — hitting a 16” high x 12” wide steel plate at ten yards in one second. Pistols were universally thought of as close-range weapons for fast encounters:

“The revolver is . . . a weapon for quick use at close quarters . . . looked upon more as a defensive weapon than an arm of precision . . . for delivering a knock-down blow within the limits of its normal short fighting range . . . used instinctively . . . aligned and discharged as a shotgun is used on moving game, rather than being consciously sighted . . . .”

Pistols would only be held with two hands for engaging the enemy at distances beyond 20 yards, such as when firing at the charging Hun over a trench parapet, or when in “No Man’s Land” from the shelter of a shell crater, firing from a prone position. Otherwise soldiers were taught a one-handed, stiff-armed position, intended to absorb recoil, pivoting the body as if a gun turret, and to thumb-cock the revolver as it is raised in a smooth motion after the draw, discharging the gun instinctively at the top of its vertical rise at the precise instant the sights came into alignment with the target, without dwelling upon sight picture. When firing single-action in this fashion, the expectation was for a soldier to produce six hits on a human silhouette at 15 yards in 12 seconds. An expert shot, firing double-action, was expected to engage three targets in 3 seconds, at distances from contact to 10 yards, firing instinctively from the hip.

Training emphasized proper stance, grip, and draw, and coordinating the rise and alignment of the pistol. A full hand squeeze was taught to discharge the revolver without jerking the trigger, being reinforced through dry firing to build smooth, coordinated motion, executed rapidly to “shoot first, and hit first!”

These days we would teach double-action trigger technique for all revolver engagements, no cocked single action! Single-hand fire, with the alternate hand being used defensively, as a parry to hold the flashlight for either target identification, or as an impact weapon, from contact to ten feet. Two-handed, DA with both arms extended is used beyond ten feet. Use of the DA trigger stroke is continued for precision fire out to 50 feet (with snubbies) or more for full-sized holster guns.

WW1 and WW2 Training conditions were made as realistic as possible. Elaborate trench systems with canvas houses featured moving targets which fleetingly appeared, advanced, and retreated, crossing quickly in front of the shooter or just popping up momentarily before vanishing. Instruction included ambidextrous firing around corners when moving through a trench, clearing a dugout or house room-by-room. Training emphasis stressed use of cover vs. mere concealment, to protect raiding parties from shells or enemy fire, exploiting wall corner beams, rubble piles, or shell craters...

Common-sense instructions included advice such as:

• Keep track of the number of rounds fired.

• Top off the revolver as frequently as possible.

• Never advance with fewer than 3 chambers loaded.

• When loading single rounds, load the chamber at 10:00 first, with the others to follow anti-clockwise, because the Webley (and Colt) cylinder rotates clockwise, the cartridge will be rotated into position straightaway.

• When unloading, to avoid a spent case being trapped under the extractor, always hold the pistol muzzle up or on its side when breaking it open.

• If in the heat of battle should a revolver run empty or become unserviceable, attempt to bluff the enemy,

• If the above fails, use the pistol as a bludgeon. Use the barrel to jab at the eyes or throat or use the front sight in a backhanded slash across the neck.

• The grip on the gun must never be relinquished, nor should the gun ever be held by the barrel to use it as a club!

(Indeed, there had been accounts of officers being shot after having experienced a misfire when they grasped the barrel for bludgeoning purposes, only to have the enemy grab the butt, and pull the trigger repeatedly until the weapon discharged).

Tracey’s Revolver Shooting in War (1916) describes these methods in detail.

While pistol lanyards were then uniform items of the era, Tracy considered them a liability in the trenches. “If used, it should only be employed at night or if mounted and NEVER attached around the neck, but around the arm, either under the epaulettes or centrally on the Sam Browne belt, allowing for the pistol to be employed with either hand.” Otherwise the lanyard had the potential to be snagged on equipment or debris. Indeed, an acquaintance of Tracy was strangled with a pistol lanyard, and another lost his life when the lanyard was caught by the revolver hammer, causing a misfire, so that he was bayonetted.

Indeed we could do much worse than to standardize a similar course of fire today.

[oldhenry]

I have no LE experience but I found your post interesting.

Now for the reason behind this little reply: "Church Gun".

How about your thoughts on that subject.

Henry

[ReloaderFred]

The UCMJ has nothing to do with HR-218 (Title 18 U.S.C., Chapter 44, Section 926C). The UCMJ only applies to the military services.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[Outpost75]

I have no LE experience but I found your post interesting. I competed against some LE people when I shot IPSC back in the '80's and found some to be well qualified & some that were not.

Now for the reason behind this little reply: "Church Gun".

How about your thoughts on that subject.

Henry

I attend a mainline protestant church. Our congregation includes current LE who are required to carry off-duty.

It also includes LE retired, military active duty, reserve and retired as well as licensed civilian CCW.

Our church session developed a security plan in accordance with these guidelines:

https://www.fbi.gov/file-repository/developing_eops_for_houses_of_worship_final.pdf/view

I won't go into further details due to OPSEC, but our pastor is on board even through the synod leadership may not be. Our community is home to field offices of the ATF, FBI, DHS, US Marshalls, as well as a military airlift wing and a military police company. Therefore our church home will not allow itself to be a soft target. Our duty is to protect our families and community first and to resist evil in all of its forms.

[Idz]

Webster defines civilian as anybody except military, police, or fireman. Some in the military define it differently.

[buckwheatpaul]

I'm curious why retired officers must re-qualify? I have never been LEO and am both interested and ignorant...

Honorably Retired L.E. must qualify yearly per federal mandate.....if we dont qualify yearly we are entitled to one more year but our special exemption becomes a CC license....then all expires at the end of the second year. We must carry our "Honorably Retired" Identification Card; our badge; and the card issued with specific wording as required by The Law Enforcement Officer's Safety Act of 2004.

[sonoransixgun]

I've enjoyed reading this thread....Outpost75, I found your post above on WWI and WWII revolver training particularly informative...Thanks for all the thoughts shared on this topic....

[Silver Jack Hammer]

Interesting post. As a firearms instructor I believed our training emphasized speed too heavily and lacked in empathizing marksmanship. The young officers wanted more shooting and moving, the training commission wanted time limits to increase stress.

We had an active shooter and it was interesting that only SWAT and former SWAT trained officers responded to engage the offender. I shot the offender at 80 yards with 1911 .45 eight minutes into the incident. I used my shooting as an example that marksmanship should be emphasized over speed but my state’s training commission said our officers hit ratio is very high and my shooting was unique in the distance involved.

The agency I retired from had an officer hit an offender at 50 yards with his handgun and another hit an offender at 200 yards with his rifle.

At the civilian range I practice at i practice a lot of one handed non dominant hand shooting to increase my marksmanship skills.

[trapper9260]

Thanks for the post Outpost . Learn more on it all .I know about the wheel gun will work better, your post explain about the auto and with the wheel gun better . Also what age and health will do to a person that you would not think of at the time. One of my sisters told me she can not work the slid on on semi auto . I told her she better off with a wheel gun will find it easyer to work . This just explain it better . Thank you . also for the reason stated for the retire LEO to do there shooting like stated is understanding . I did not know about the law that was in for retire LE . Always learning on here . thanks

[Lance Boyle]

I wonder if you will see changes in autoloading pistol competency versus revolvers. Soon all LE retirees will be only auto pistol trained. I am the second class in my agency that never was issued a revolver. I will be eligible to retire in 15 months, then 25 years on.

I didn’t really get into revolvers until I recognized I had little experience with them. I think I own 5 .357s now. Even still I know I have a familiarization level of training with them never having gone through a full training with them. I can run a glock or a 1911 in my sleep, I have qualified with a 1911 by moonlight not once seeing the sights but by indexing the rear of the slide over the army pop up targets.

I have no ingrained training with the revolvers. ( It doesn’t help I have kept trying to find a perfect one. )

I have hears the reviews from our retiree shoots. Some are good and some are to be watched for range safety.

I think that basic marksmanship must be taught before survival techniques are dwelled on. Build skills upon skills but you cannot run before learning to walk.


We used to have to shoot 10 rounds at 50 yards in a fifty round course of fire. That has long since been gone but it was a good skill assessment even though the odds were more remote than a shove and shoot engagement.



Eta, lol. I am old enough to have a regular supply of pill bottles coming in. I am so going to start keeping speedloaders in pill bottles now.


Another thing I know from personal experience, if your first training was good and truly ingrained, new methods really don’t come automatically under stress with out a lot of work, you revert to your first style of training. I have seen this time and again in defensive tactics and handcuffing. If your first training was 500 repetitions to get the skill developed, you might need 5000 repetitions on a new technique to have a chance of superceding the old.


One thing that irked me, a new big boss mandated a new different location of our expanable batons to match the current up to date new hires training and equipment location. Well after 22 years of carrying the thing in one spot moving did nothing to help the old farts.

[35remington]

What is fascinating is contrasting the experience laid out here with that of the many tube videos going along the theme of “revolvers are obsolete and worthless for self defense.”

The central theme is “revolvers are not that reliable....not as reliable as claimed by common wisdom.”

To enumerate the supposed issues:

Multiple revolvers go down all the time on the firing line at classes where revolvers are used, and when they go down......they go down so hard they are not fixable in any reasonable time frame.

Revolvers crud up so quickly from a modest amount of shooting that they must be brushed out and maintained constantly. Frequent breaks are needed on any reasonably extended course of fire or revolvers will lock up.

Unburned powder granules tie up the cylinder getting where they should not....almost more often than not.

Ejector rods unscrew so frequently they lock the gun up all the time, and apparently no one paid any attention to the fact that if this does actually occur revolvers will give advance notice it is happening before the gun actually will be impossible to open. Nevertheless....those dang revolvers!

Five or six shots are impossibly few. No matter what. Apparently lawmen of fifty years ago either never encountered “multiple adversaries” back in the day as must happen constantly now by all reports or simply died in droves when they did. Either reason apparently was the cause of their continued usage of revolvers. Of course no sane person would do that now.

Right?

My experience is given the rounds already in the gun, I have had very very few issues with any quality revolver, and even my budget medium quality ones have given me no trouble.

Therefore all the internet commentary on how fallible and useless revolvers are goes right against my experience gained over this lifetime. So I rightly ignore it.

Trouble is that the new generations repeat what they see stated elsewhere rather than experience it for themselves.

Simple refutation is found by acknowledging there were few complaints about revolver reliability when revolvers were in their heyday. There is no good reason to think that something has fundamentally changed about revolver reliability just because autoloaders are more popular.

Yet people speak as if it has, mostly to justify their choices while ignoring the downsides of what is popular now.

[Gray Fox]

A lot of this I have experienced both in the military for 25 years and later as an instructor for civilian carry and licenseg armed security officers. I started shooting with a Colt Police Positive snubby in .38 S&W owened by a HS teacher of mine. Besides autos I also have several 642 snubbies and one of the rare 940-1 in 9mm. the 5-round moon clips for that one allow me to carry two of them in a pill bottle at the same time. I'll admit they are a bit fragile and the bottle carries them without a problem.

I was surprised you did not mention the problem many seniors and not-so-senior ladies have with loading a magazine fully. Most have no problem loading and learning a quick reload with a revolver.

Thanks for providing a good review of many useful items to a fellow senior shooter. GF

[ReloaderFred]

There is an article in the January, 2020, issue of The American Rifleman magazine on just this issue. It's called "The Aging Defender: Minimizing And Working Around The Effects Of Time", and starts on Page 60. It addresses everything we've been talking about in this thread, which are timely issues.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[HamGunner]

In Missouri, LEOSA retiree qualifications are just like the qualifications required for Active LE qualifications for the state as per the Federal Law, except that most instructors do not require the weapon to be drawn from a holster. The qualification has timed stages, and various conditions to include weak hand, along with increasing yardage of stages out to 25 yards. Our instructors require all counted shots to remain in the body of the silhouette which actually is not quite as stringent as the state qualification which requires all hits to be inside the 8 ring to count. Not all that difficult for most that have qualified throughout their careers, except of course for those that have medical handicaps. I have seen very few that actually could not qualify even then. Like was mentioned above, almost all malfunctions were from semi-auto pistols. Very few if any from revolvers. As for myself, I use my 4" S&W Model 66-1. I have seen ammo malfunctions in a few unsupported chamber autos due to ruptured cases and they were aways using factory ammo. I had to carry a semi-auto in my later career, but I now have reverted back to my early days. Only I now usually carry a five shooter instead of a six.

[MT Gianni]

What I would like to see is a comparison of active shooters of retirement age vs retired LEO's. When I was a Reserve I was reminded again of how few LEO's treated a firearm as just another tool they had to have. Few shot recreationally. I think for us that learned with revolvers that skill stays with you though practice with one only doesn't translate to competence with both.

[Bigslug]

What I would like to see is a comparison of active shooters of retirement age vs retired LEO's. When I was a Reserve I was reminded again of how few LEO's treated a firearm as just another tool they had to have. Few shot recreationally. I think for us that learned with revolvers that skill stays with you though practice with one only doesn't translate to competence with both.

HR-218 addresses that. If you shoot your required qual with an autoloader, you're good to carry any autoloader. If you shoot it with a wheelgun, you're good for any wheelgun. If you plan on carrying both types, qual with both types and check both boxes.

You do see a lot of bad habits that are leftovers from bygone eras, or outright gamerisms, and I will help the old guys out with a little bit of tough love realism: I will have folks who choose to run a DA/SA auto fire the first shot of each string DA, and that folks who bring revolvers shoot them DA. Qualifying for "combat" applications with "target" techniques isn't serving anyone's interests.

[Speedo66]

We must carry our "Honorably Retired" Identification Card; our badge; and the card issued with specific wording as required by The Law Enforcement Officer's Safety Act of 2004.
Although I do carry a retired badge, HR218/LEOSA does not require a badge to be carried, just a retired ID and the annual re-qualification card.