The logic behind 457130 collar button boolits

[Don1357]

I just got and had my first casting session with the 150g collar button boolits for my 45-70. It is taking some getting used to. For starters I'm used to larger bullets which seems to help keep the mold nice and hot. It seems like I really have to crank the temperature a lot in order to keep it warm enough. The spot closer to me (two bullet mold) seems to suffer from poor filling related to temperature (I accidentally 5% tin to CWW so lack of tin isn't the problem).

To my questions: Does anybody knows the logic behind the ridiculously large grease groove? Was it just to cut down on weight? Anybody knows the BC of this boolit? How much pressure do these things like? The first batch is water quenched which puts hardness around 20 BH, I'll also do a air cooled batch which ends up around 11 BH. I'll be playing with a lever Marlin and a H&R 32" Buffalo Classic.

[Hickory]

Does anybody knows the logic behind the ridiculously large grease groove.

The large grease groove is to supply enough lube in black powder cartridges to keep the black powder residue soft, or at least that is the theory.

[gwpercle]

Since the lubes back then weren't that good , you wanted a big one . Elmer Keith talks extensively about the need for a large deep flat bottomed groove to hold as much lube as possible .
And since this is for a rifle and it has only one lube groove , it probably needs to be as large as possible . The cutting down on weight is also another reason.
These were supposed to be used for target loads and maybe small game , so light was good .
Gary

[Don1357]

If keeping black powder soft was the main goal I would think that other black powder era molds would have that sort of capacity. They don't. And this grove takes an ungodly amount of lube probably exceeding bullets 3 time its size.

Is there any documented rationale behind this design from the time it was made?

[edp2k]

Keep in mind that the old timers seated the 45-70 collar button deep down inside the case, right on top of the powder.

As for size of the lube groove, my SWAG is that they wanted a light bullet for gallery use
and but wanted a tall bullet to make it less likely to get cocked on seating or firing.
And I understand that the collar button was more accurate then a round ball.

Feel free to not completely fill the lube groove, or to tumble lube them, or PC them.

[mehavey]

See http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?322313-45-70-Collar-button-boolits&p=3882234&viewfull=1#post3882234

Also http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?322313-45-70-Collar-button-boolits&p=3870855&viewfull=1#post3870855

[Wayne Smith]

The collar button was originally designed for indoor Army practice in the winter. They would construct a range in the Armory and use light loads to duplicate the heaver load used in the rifles at a probably 25yrd range. It was not designed for long range use.

[beagle]

Then, there's the theory that it was used for making small game loads for game out west in the early days when a standard 405 grain service round was too much for game for the pot. Small game would have been a welcome change to sow belly and hardtack in their diet. I have an original Ideal 457130 and yes the lube groove is too big for today's lubes. I think the black powder theory is right on. Haven't tried any in my Marlin but have 40 rounds loaded.

I kinda think the small game theory was right as in those days they headed for the nearest hill and practiced. The gallery loads came later in the Krag and Springfield era when reloading outfits were issued to smaller army units for indoor practice when the population grew and range facilities were scarce. The armory in the town I grew up in had a underground "tube" that they used and this would have been ideal. But this is a later era.

I know that there was not a shortage of ammo back in those days. I recall my dad talking about his days with E Troop, 19th Calvary, NC National Guard. He was employed full time as a horse wrangler to maintain their horses. They had a mounted course set up in a small valley adjacent to the armory. They'd use M1917 .45 and later the M1911s on these courses as well as the sabre and Springfield. Never said anything about reloading but said they were used extensively. Spoke of horses with .45 holes through ears and tops of ears cut off with sabres. /beagle

[longbow]

According to the Ideal No. 9 Handbook from 1897:

"457130 This bullet is the same weight as the round ball. Is preferred by some for light work on account of having groove for lubrication and two bands to hold onto the rifling."

and Ideal Handbook #38:

"457130 Collar button bullet for small game shooting. Can be loaded slightly heavier than round ball if necessary."

and Ideal Handbook 1929:

"457130 This collar button bullet is the same weight as the round ball, and is preferred to the round ball by most shooters for .45 caliber rifles as it holds onto the rifling so much better, and can be seated more accurately and securely in the case. Powder charge 5 to 9 grains FFFG black powder."

Also to note is that a similar design was available in 0.429" in the 1929 Ideal Handbook so well after the end of BP days and stated "429239. For .44 S&W Russian revolvers, and known as the "collar button" bullet. Designed by C.H Herrick for short range and gallery. Cast of 1 part tin to 25 lead. Seat in case to just cover the large groove."

My understanding of the "logic" is that the collar button was designed for same weight as round ball but with longer bearing surface. While not stated in the Ideal info I suspect the large groove is a result of keeping weight low but spreading out bearing surface, rather than as a giant lube groove due to BP fouling. As you noted, other BP boolit designs do not have such large lube grooves.

There used to be several very lightweight boolit designs available for both .44 and .45 down to 110 grs. There must have been lots of indoor/gallery shooting going on at one time! The .44 versions seemed to be for handgun where the 457130 is for rifle.

I have loaded round ball in my .44 mag. Marlin but wasn't too impressed. I wanted a lightweight boolit so asked Tom at Accurate Molds to scale down a 165 gr. .45 design he had to 0.433". It is pretty short and stubby but has lots more bearing surface than a round ball and it seems to work quite well with some pretty zippy loads while retaining better accuracy than the round ball. If I were doing it again I think I'd go with a more collar button like design.

Longbow

[Don1357]

Where do they seem to be most accurate? Should I keep them relatively soft and keep the pressure low or relatively hard and bump up the pressure?

The first batch is water quenched cww+5% tin (math error, meant to use 2%). That end up around 20BHN. Next batch will be air cooled which would be around 10.5BHN. once I empty the pot ill try some a tad softer.

[longbow]

No experience with cast collar button boolits here though many years ago when I had my .45-70's I did buy some CIL swaged lead collar button boolits. I don't recall the load but I think 10 grs. of Unique. They shot quite well.

The old Ideal handbook and Lyman manuals list 5 gr. Unique for the collar button boolit to give 900 FPS but I am sure it can be driven faster and perform well. I have loaded my 165 gr. Accurate .44 boolit over 8 grs. of 700X and they shoot well.

I am casting these from ACWW.

You might check out the group buy results for the MIHEC and NOE collar button group buys to see if anyone posted loads and results... and alloys. The old Ideal handbook says 1 part tin to 25 parts lead. I can't imagine that harder would be bad as long as fit is good.

Longbow

[35remington]

Light charges of Bullseye to obtain 800-1000 fps work well. I have better luck keeping them subsonic.

[Don1357]

Looking at the load data from Western Bullets the slowest is 1,245 FPS, everything else starts at over 1,500 FPS with a few pushing 2,000FPS at maximum load.

http://www.westernbullet.com/ly4gr6.html

I have some IMR 4198, Unique and Trail Boss. I'm really looking forward to see what my rifles wants to do with them. I'll let accuracy determine what's what.

[longbow]

Well then, those are some zippy loads! The old Ideal Handbooks are much more conservative with collar button velocity.

I think I'd go for harder alloy than softer at those velocities. I'd also use a wax or card wad under the boolit for the high end velocities.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

The logic behind 457130 collar button boolits
This is a great thread with great info so far.

I owned a Lee GB mold, and cast up a large quantity (lifetime supply) of them for Gallery loads in 45-70 for my single shot rifle. Then sold the mold. I used a soft alloy, basically pure lead with a small amount of Tin (about 0.5% to 1%) to deter corrosion for long term storage.

[mehavey]

253361After a little reading and testing both primers & powder position sensitivity (which is Baaaaaddd -- from 300fps to 1,100fps / unburned powder all over the place), I decided to follow an older protocol to move the thin (near weightless) foam disk off the bullet base and down to a position 1/5" (.200") above the powder.

For that amount of powder, this creates a very reliable sloping powder position/surface akin to that in a 45ACP case. The rifle primer immediately blows it out of the way even before ignition really gets going and it's off to the races.

50 Yard results today:
Marlin `95GuideGun

253360

45-70 as-Cast:0.460"/sized:0.459"/DGLube h=104 1/16" foam 1/5" above powder
Lyman 457130 Button(30:1)147gr /RedDot/6.0/Starline/FedLR/OAL=2.318"
QL predicts 4,478psi/890fps(friction-ON) Crimp(½-turn)MidFrwdBand

Velocity was a very consistent 1,086fps ± 08 for all 5 rounds.
Barrel was spotless/very little powder residual even before cleaning.

[35remington]

Any reasonable accuracy at 1500 fps and above is not going to happen.

It is a small light bullet that at best is a small game sized projectile regardless of speed. Accuracy is the limitation, and driving a small game bullet to high speed and poor accuracy serves no purpose.

[Alferd Packer]

It was designed to use a minimum amount of lead and had at least two compression rings on the rifling and to keep the lead pill from tipping sideways, both in the case and when travelling down the barrel.
Just try making a bullet shape any other way while only using that much lead in a 45/70 bore.
It makes perfect sense the way they made it.
It is much more accurate for me than a ball and really flattens any game you shoot.
They can be sized down with some difficulty and shot from 45colt.
But I prefer to just mash it into a 45/70 case over a small load of Black powder, or maybe a small bit of bullseye , just enough to blow the button out the barrel.
Fun loads to be sure using an old cannon caliber buffalo gun shooting pipsqueek loads.
45/70 lover.