south bend 9B for gunsmithing

[Brett Ross]

Ok you guys that have more machining experience than I, what do you know about this lathe. I am somewhat mechanically inclined and would like to teach my-self some basic machinist / gunsmithing skills. OK, would this lathe be capable of barrel chamber work and threading.

[country gent]

A lathe used for barrel work needs spindle bore of 1 3/8" or larger or a longer bed of 36-40". A to small spindle bore means your working between centers or a steady rest. A spindle that is easy to attach a spider to on back end is a plus also. A quick change gear box is a plus for adjusting feeds and thread pitches. I also prefer a d series chuck mounting over the threaded on chucks. A collet chuck faceplate and dead center are good accessories to have with the lathe.

If there is a school near you that offers the apprenticeship coarsest ( night school) take a couple of the machining classes. This will get you started and give you the basics getting started. Instructed classes go a lot farther than figuring it out on your own

[ulav8r]

When I went to CST they had about 10 9" South Bends and taught barrel fitting and chambering on them. They were setting up their first Heavy 10 just before I left. The 9 inch lathes will work but will be slower than using a lathe that will take the barrel through the headstock.

If you find a great deal on a 9 inch lathe don't turn it down. It is much easier to find a lathe for sale if you already have one.

[tim338]

Make sure you get all the change gears with it. Those can get expensive in hurry.

[Nueces]

The old Kreuz Gun Shop in Austin, Texas was equipped with South Bend 9" lathes and an Atlas horizontal mill. He operated right down the street from the capitol and did all the work for many old time Texas Rangers, like Frank Hamer and Lone Wolf Gonzaullas, using those machines. Good craftsmanlike work can be done on them. Harry Pope had nothing better to work with. You'd be well equipped if running a small personal shop.

[drac0nic]

I'd want at least 30" between centers and I'd feel comfortable with it. The SB stuff tends to be better build materials and rigidity than the Atlases from what I understand. Tooling is probably more valuable than the lathe truthfully or at least equally so. For what you're doing I'd want the face plate/dog, a 3 jaw chuck (4 is better if time isn't a concern,) a steady rest and a follow rest plus anything else you can get is a bonus.

[Deadeye Bly]

I've got a 9" SB A model with a 4 1/2 ft bed with the complete set of metric change gears. I did some barrel work on it using the steady rest. It is doable but not as accurate centering the barrel as a 4 jaw chuck on a lathe with a larger spindle hole. I've got a Logan 11" with the 1 3/8" spindle hole that I do my barrel work on now. I use the 9" SB the most making screws, firing pins and miscellaneous things because it is so easy to use. If it is all you've got, make the best of it but a lathe with a larger spindle hole is best for barrel work.

[bob208]

I know of more then one gunsmith that use a 9 inch southbend for barrel work. I use a steady rest that way you are away from the wear spot right at the chuck. this have to stick it in the chuck bunch shows they do not think at all. you do need a 4 foot bed at least a 4 1/2 foot would be better.

[kens]

I have a Logan 9B, and it would be light for barrel chambering. it only allows 3/4" thru the spindle, so only the muzzle of a light barrel can be put thru the spindle.
I believe that ALL the 9B's are quick change gearbox, but then it still hampers you on bore size.
It is a good lathe within it's own size, though.

[drac0nic]

I know of more then one gunsmith that use a 9 inch southbend for barrel work. I use a steady rest that way you are away from the wear spot right at the chuck. this have to stick it in the chuck bunch shows they do not think at all. you do need a 4 foot bed at least a 4 1/2 foot would be better.

You have the right idea. My Atlas is severely clapped out but if I did something like you're talking about it would be serviceable for the work you're mentioning. It's one of the reasons I'm not too concerned about the 3/4 through hole. If anything using that would put me in a place in the bed I'd really like to avoid for a precision operation.

[tim338]

All the Southbend 9B's use change gears with no quick change gear boxes. The 9A has the quick change gear box.



I have a Logan 9B, and it would be light for barrel chambering. it only allows 3/4" thru the spindle, so only the muzzle of a light barrel can be put thru the spindle.
I believe that ALL the 9B's are quick change gearbox, but then it still hampers you on bore size.
It is a good lathe within it's own size, though.

[country gent]

While not unusable these old south bends, atlas and other smaller machines are getting old and due to size weight restrictions finding needed tooling for them is getting harder. I watched a small logan 6 x 18 bench top sell at an auction for just over $2000.00 with little to no tooling. I had bid up to $600.00. For $2000 you are well on your way to a 12X40 with a 1 1/4" spindle bore and tooling in a used machine. Take your time search the machinery venders in your area, Craigs list, estates. I have a harbor freight ( central machinery) 5x10 mini lather and it will do the job but is under powered and light. What it will do in 5-6 passes the causing will do in 2-3 and the nardinni will do in 1. Working with the small spindle bore can take some imagination, again much easier on the clausing with 1 3/8" bore and even better on the Nardinni with its 2 1/2" spindle bore.

Watch the used machine brokers venders a good solid machine can be found and purchased reasonably usually with the needed tooling also. On a lathe Ideally collets and closer, 3 jaw ( I could live with out the 3 jaw), 4 jaw chucks, a drill chuck 5/8"-3/4", live center, dead centers, tool post and holders, aloris is nice but a lot can be done with a lantern post and rocker. Then cutters turning boring facing threading and grooving. A lot more in tooling but it can also be made.

Struggling with a to small machine on a job or the wrong tools makes it much harder to do.

[Nueces]

I think the reason good older, but small, machine tools are bid so high is because few of us can manage to accommodate larger tools. Machines of industrial size often go for scrap value.

[bob208]

you are dead on. I have moved a lot of machinery. try to get a lathe with a 13/4 through hole down the cellar steps. that 9 inch south bend or 12 inch atlas is easy. I know I have done it many times. I have a clausing 6x24 vertical mill it is a 8520 it breaks down into 3 major parts I moved it out of the cellar into my shop moved it from that shop to the farm. if I sold it I would get almost as much as I paid for my 8x42 vertical I bought new.

[KCSO]

Gee and here I got along with a South Bend 9a for 20 years and the lathe was used by a gunsmith since it was new in 1952! You work a little different but a SB9" will do whatever you need if it is long enough to work between centers.

[TCLouis]

I wish I had a 10 just for the bigger hole through the headstock, but need to start doing a lot more to really say it is an issue.

Mine came with most everything one would need except lathe dogs (cheap) and thread dial NOT so cheap.
Collet set with closer would be nice for somethings I would like to do also.

[Ed K]

Brett, I do not know your circumstances: is someone dropping this in your lap or are you buying? If it is coming from a friend and/or family for free or cheap - yes it will work as many here can attest. If you are buying consider a bigger machine. For example I found a South Bend 13" under power in a working machine shop for $800 that was in good enough condition to be making them money. They were buying more CNC equipment and had run out of space. What's more is that once I became trained at searching I found even better deals once my money was spent so patience is a virtue.

Nothing wrong with old iron or Chinese new if it works for you. Take some time and learn. Most new interest wants a machine in hand now (me too), but reading, learning and searching pays off!

[Green Frog]

If you don’t already have basic knowledge of how to run a lathe, I highly recommend taking a class (or 3 or 6) at your local Community College or Trade School. While gunsmithing has its own special set of quirks and tricks, basic machining is ... basic machining. “You must learn to walk before you run!” :D

Another advantage of taking the classes is you get to see what the limits of various machines may be. Also, once you are connected with the machining community, finding deals on used tools and tooling becomes more likely. :coffee:

I inherited an old 11” Sheldon lathe with a 1 1/8” spindle opening (MT #4) and when I can get to it and the Atlas MFC Horizontal Mill I purchased, I might be able to do some good work... but I still need more coaching and practice... I can turn good metal stock into scrap more quickly than just about anyone you’ll ever meet! ;-)

Froggie

PS The best machinist gunsmith I ever knew had a large enough (11”) lathe for barrel work and not one but two 9” SB lathes for lighter work, along with obligatory Bridgeport Vertical Mill and assorted other tooling. As long as you have enough space, you can’t have too many tools! :mrgreen:

[country gent]

Green Frog. a second lathe is handy even a smaller one. It can save a lot of time when you have a job going and set up in the other and need a pin or bushing made to fit. When we sleeved bearing races we bored the journal out and measured it. ( usually .050-.100 on a side). Then went to a second lathe turned the bushing up for size to size or .0005 press. and the bore with in .050. This was cut to length and pushed in with light coat of red locktite with the face of the tail stock spindle on the original machine and bored to sized. The second machine saved a touchy set up and recentering. The second lathe can save a lot f time and energy

[Brett Ross]

Wow thanks for all the replies. I have been deer hunting so have not been logged in for a while, I am just kind of thinking and looking now. This is a plan to occupy my time in retirement, along with maybe a bit of income supplement, about 8 years away. I have begun work on sporting a 1895 Lowe to learn some skills. I just got the receiver off the barrel and beginning to clean it up and remove the stripper clip boss, anyone know where a guy can get a receiver holding fixture for a 1895 all I seem to find is for the 98s.

[kens]

Wow thanks for all the replies. I have been deer hunting so have not been logged in for a while, I am just kind of thinking and looking now. This is a plan to occupy my time in retirement, along with maybe a bit of income supplement, about 8 years away. I have begun work on sporting a 1895 Lowe to learn some skills. I just got the receiver off the barrel and beginning to clean it up and remove the stripper clip boss, anyone know where a guy can get a receiver holding fixture for a 1895 all I seem to find is for the 98s.

it's in your lathe

[Green Frog]

Green Frog. a second lathe is handy even a smaller one. It can save a lot of time when you have a job going and set up in the other and need a pin or bushing made to fit. When we sleeved bearing races we bored the journal out and measured it. ( usually .050-.100 on a side). Then went to a second lathe turned the bushing up for size to size or .0005 press. and the bore with in .050. This was cut to length and pushed in with light coat of red locktite with the face of the tail stock spindle on the original machine and bored to sized. The second machine saved a touchy set up and recentering. The second lathe can save a lot f time and energy

Absolutely... more is always better if you want efficiency of production. Of course you reach a point of diminishing returns if you aren’t doing a lot of machine work. My 11” Sheldon lathe is big enough for about anything I’m likely to do, but if I had a little lathe for cutting screws and pins and winding small springs it would probably be nice. But I’m not doing much of anything in the shop these days, so it’s hard to justify adding another unused machine! :roll:

OTOH, the grand uncle from whom I inherited the Sheldon was retired from a large foundry and used it as his little lathe. His big one was a beast! But even after many years of work and retirement, he still “puttered around” in the shop with his stuff, it was long since paid for, and he enjoyed it right up until he was too old and infirm to do much of anything. I envy him on that, but machining is not enough in my routine to justify more equipment. The ultimate value of machine tools depends on the person using them.

Froggie

[Geezer in NH]

I did lots of barrel work on my 9 SB

New guys can't figure out how as they are not really machinists. Just parts replacers like 99% of AR gunsmiths.

[john.k]

If you are looking to buy ,certain lathes have a magic name as far as hobby buyers are concerned.......You can generally get a less well know name for a lot less money.....And before you shell out your hard earned ,best to find out some in s and outs of used machines,mainly so you dont get caught by a shark with a can of green paint.

[country gent]

Lathes are a little region oriented as to make also even in industry. Lodge and Shipley, Monarch, White, Sheldons were popular around here. Up around Detroit clausings, Americans, hendis were popular. Schools liked the smaller atlas , clausing, sheldons, and Rockwell. This may have some bearing on whats available in your area. Hardringes are a great small lathe with a nice sized spindle hole and very accurate. A popular tool room lathe, but the tooling is more specialized for them. Another factor is the industry in the area. An area with a lot of shipping and boat yards the lathes tend to be bigger and mush longer beds. Same with the mills. Autos industry lathes are more sized to what a hobbyist wants but the mills can be pretty big.

[izzyjoe]

South bend 9 is a good lathe, I've seen guys do a lot, with a lot less!

[trenches]

I was given a SB 405 lathe. It was fun getting it into the basement. It has 4' bed. As I go I buy tooling if needed. So far it has done everything that I asked of it. From what I found it was made in 1934 or so. It's still going strong.

[Scrounge]

When I went to CST they had about 10 9" South Bends and taught barrel fitting and chambering on them. They were setting up their first Heavy 10 just before I left. The 9 inch lathes will work but will be slower than using a lathe that will take the barrel through the headstock.

If you find a great deal on a 9 inch lathe don't turn it down. It is much easier to find a lathe for sale if you already have one.

Got that right on the finding another lathe thing! You can do barrel work on a chinese mini-lathe, and the Atlas 10" & 12" lathes have approximately the same spindle bore as the 7x mini-lathes. It just ain't easy, apparently. http://www.packratworkshop.com/pdf/mini%20lathe%20rifles.pdf

[Scrounge]

Lathes are a little region oriented as to make also even in industry. Lodge and Shipley, Monarch, White, Sheldons were popular around here. Up around Detroit clausings, Americans, hendis were popular. Schools liked the smaller atlas , clausing, sheldons, and Rockwell. This may have some bearing on whats available in your area. Hardringes are a great small lathe with a nice sized spindle hole and very accurate. A popular tool room lathe, but the tooling is more specialized for them. Another factor is the industry in the area. An area with a lot of shipping and boat yards the lathes tend to be bigger and mush longer beds. Same with the mills. Autos industry lathes are more sized to what a hobbyist wants but the mills can be pretty big.

Yep. I live in oil country. Lots of BIG lathes here. Guy I used to go to church with has one sitting out in his yard with a chuck over a yard across. And it's longer than several of the trucks he has parked there. I'm hving a bit of trouble shoe-horning the HF 7x10 (24" bed), Atlas TH42 (42" bed), and SB Heavy 10L (4-1/2' bed), into the shop as it is. I am in a machining class, and won't be calling myself a gunsmith because I'm unlikely to live long enough to really get good at the machining, but I'm having fun. If I could find a 13" Clausing Colchester that I could afford, I'd sure like to buy it! That's my go-to lathe at school. Closest thing they have to the Atlas & SB. But it's not very close. Atlas is 267#, SB is 1067#, and the CC is 2700# (5' or 6' bed) and counts as a tiny lathe around here.

[mrmachinist]

I would love an old us made lathe. I have a hf lathe and mill at home and I make a lot of good parts on them but they take forever with the small cuts I have to take on the machine due to its lack of rigidity. I find myself turning things on the cncs at work more often than not.


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[country gent]

We had clausing 10" X 40 lathes at trade school and they were very good machines. Also a big hendi and a couple Cincinnati 16 x 72 or so.It is easier to do a barrel with it thru the head stock but if you have the bed it can be done on a steady rest. The little Hardringe lathes would do good with the 1 1/2 spindle bore but they are expansive in poor conditions.
Clausings used an odd chuck mount a tapered nose with key and a threaded ring to tighten in place with a large spanner to tighten.

I have a nardinni 14 / 18 X 40 lathe 7 hp and 3500 lbs 2" + spindle bore. Aloris tool post and tooling. steady rest and follower rest. Its a d series 6 pin mount. Digital read out on this machine Next up is a 12 X 40 lathe, around 2000 lbs 2 hp and 1 1/2" spindle bore. Aloris post and holders are shared with the Nardinni. Also a d series mount but 3 pin. Steady rest and follower rest with it. Last is a HF mini 7 X 12
5c collets and closers for both machines. I have worked with Monarch, atlas, white, leblonde, american die setter, hardringe, warner and swasey, bridgeport/romey, sheldon, rockwell lathes over the years.
All have their strong points and weak areas. but all will do good work with a skilled operator.
Get what you can find / afford learn it and buy or make tooling as needed.

[redneck1]

The L00 spindle nose clausing used is a very accurate way to Mount a chuck , but hold onto your pocket book if you buy a lathe and it doesn't come with the chucks .

[gzig5]

I've seen a smith (google Les Brooks Mini Lathe) thread and chamber a profiled blank for a Mini-Mauser to 17 Remington in a 7x12 mini lathe that shot sub 1/2" groups when done. He chambered or converted several rifles and made a lot of tooling with that lathe, sometimes working out of his RV camper. It's the Indian, not the arrow.

Having said that, among others, I've owned a 14"x40 Rockwell, two long bed SB heavy 10s, 12"x36 Atlas/Craftsman, 9x30 Southbend, and currently have an 11" EMCO (Austrian, not chinese), 6x18 Atlas, EMCO PC micro lathe, and a no name Jewelers lathe where a toothpick is a large work piece. It is always easier to get good results using the heaviest, most rigid machine you have access to.

[W.R.Buchanan]

OK: I'm going to inject a little reality into this thread. A South Bend 9" lathe will do what you need to do. However you won't be able to make it do what you want until you learn how to use it. This will take you some time as you aren't being pushed or coached by a lead man or foreman who is mainly interested in getting work out the door.

I learned on JUNK! and there were many scrapped pieces as well as some welding done to recover from mistakes. I learned how to compensate for the junk machine's inaccuracies. It was still hit and miss because the machine was barely capable of making something round.

I can make some older machines perform because I know how to take the slack out of them, and know what tools to use, and all of the other things that 40 years of making chips taught me. You don't have this experience, and as such you will go thru a major period of frustration simply because the machine you bought was junk and you didn't know it when you bought it.

Some of the old machines are good. Hardinge Lathes are among the best ever made, but not cheap. The Single Point Threading System on an HLV is the best anyone ever came up with, and would come in real handy for threading barrels, because it makes it so simple your wife could do it . The Spindle on a HLV is big enough to swallow most any gun barrel with the Collet Closer removed. These machines are @6 feet long and 3 feet wide and run on three phase 220. or a phase converter or 5 hp electric motor set up to act as a Phase Converter.

Do your self a favor,. You don't have to buy one of these machines as a decent one will set you back $5K or more. But you can buy a new Grizzly https://www.grizzly.com/products/grizzly-10-x-22-benchtop-metal-lathe/g0602 for $1700 and have something that would actually allow you to do meaningful work immediately.

Instead of trying to learn how to make JUNK Perform.

The shop I started in had nothing but Junk Machines from the 30's, and that was in 1975. The machines you are talking about in this thread are the same machines except they are now 50 years older. And granted some were actually taken care of but most weren't and you don't know the difference.

It was so refreshing to stand in front of a machine that would actually do what I told it to as opposed to trying to figure out what it would actually do and then compensate for it.

Believe me life is too short to use inferior machines. If you spend a little more you'll probably get more, but the one thing that rises above all else when talking about older machines is where they were on the scale when new,,, And all South Bends were way down the list!,,, and then modify that with the age and condition of the machine to see just how bad it is.. IE: A Monarch 10EE in very well used condition is a better machine than a Brand New South Bend Lathe, every day of the week! Even a new Taiwanese made Engine Lathe is better than a old worn out American Made machine.

If you are serious about doing what you talked about in Post #1 you'd be well served by listening to what I have said here and shop around until you find a machine that is better suited to what you want to accomplish.

You aren't going to find anything for $500 that is even worthy of the space in your garage. Been there and done this for 40+ years and it never changes. I haven't seen a South Bend Lathe that was worthy of consideration in the last 30years.

I hope you and others don't take direct offense at this post but it has been my observation since I started and went from my first shop to the place that had nice machines and then thru my garage to a real live working machine shop with Bridgeport Mills and Hardinge Lathes.

You can't blame a quality machine for your bad work. But you probably won't get much quality work out of junk, no matter how good you are.

Randy

[Mk42gunner]

I've been kind of looking for a lathe for a few years, and all that I found that was somewhat affordable was just as Randy described-- junk. Not to mention having to look for old used tooling that may or may not work with the lathe you find.

Grizzly isn't that far from my house, so if or when I have the spare money and the time to devote to it, I will be getting a new machine. I just have too many more important projects in the pile right now.

Robert

[country gent]

I got lucky when I was looking for my machines. A friend I shot high power with had ended up in a nursing home and I was offered his equipment. 2 lathes a bridgeport mill and surface grinder all with tooling for a very good price. The lathes were new in 1980 the mill was refurbished in late 80s, I knew the owner for years and they were in a one man shop.

Buying "one stop" also greatly lower the price for having them tooling and stock moved.

[Hdskip]

Having spent a total of 45 years in the machining business I would echo everything Randy said and consider it good advise for the aspiring craftsman. It is spot on advise.
Gary

[MrWolf]

Nice write-up Randy. I keep saying one of these days and hoping to get enough done around here that one of these days will be by the end of the year. I keep reading these types of posts and am starting to compile a list of everything I will need. I know tools will cost me much more than the lathe will. Thanks again.
Ron

[mrmachinist]

This reminds me I need to fix the half nut on my HF lathe. Cleaning the shop out this weekend. Maybe I will be able to get to it again.


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[Deadeye Bly]

I bought my 9" SB from a retired gunsmith who had retired from the Army in the late 40's or early 50's and had bought it new when he set up a private gunsmithing business. He had worked at Springfield with James Howe, Townsend Whelen, Julian Hatcher and others. He knew a bit about gunsmithing. He had done a lot of custom gunsmithing with the lathe before I bought it in the late 70's. I have turned over 180 new Maynard barrels on the lathe as well as lots of other barrels. The longest barrel I completed on it was a 34" barrel. Yes, a 9" South Bend can get the job done if that is what you have. I just threaded and fitted a long octagon barrel on my 11" Logan. I got it done but for me it is more awkward to use than the SB. It just would not go thru the spindle of the SB. Yes, a newer lathe may be better in some respects but s 9" SB in good shape should not be overlooked.

[W.R.Buchanan]

I bought my 9" SB from a retired gunsmith who had retired from the Army in the late 40's or early 50's and had bought it new when he set up a private gunsmithing business. He had worked at Springfield with James Howe, Townsend Whelen, Julian Hatcher and others. He knew a bit about gunsmithing. He had done a lot of custom gunsmithing with the lathe before I bought it in the late 70's. I have turned over 180 new Maynard barrels on the lathe as well as lots of other barrels. The longest barrel I completed on it was a 34" barrel. Yes, a 9" South Bend can get the job done if that is what you have. I just threaded and fitted a long octagon barrel on my 11" Logan. I got it done but for me it is more awkward to use than the SB. It just would not go thru the spindle of the SB. Yes, a newer lathe may be better in some respects but s 9" SB in good shape should not be overlooked.

That is the operative point in your post. A decent SB lathe is a very rare thing these days.. It was a very rare thing in 1970 as well.

Gunsmithing in todays market place is a completely different animal than it was 50 years ago. Precision is the name of the game and that means having good equipment. You are not going to make a living installing Sling Swivels or Mounting Scopes as most all guns come with sling swivels and the guns are already D&T'd for scope mounts or have Picatinny Rails. Any one can mount a scope now and drilling 2 1/8" holes for Sling Swivels is not too hard either.

If you are looking at it from a Hobby perspective then those older machines might be ok as long as your expectations aren't too great.

If you want to do work for other people, you will rue the day you bought an older piece of Junk,,, the first time you screw up someone else's gun.

There are Two Components to Craftsmanship.

1. Attention to Detail

2. Personal Responsibility

And it doesn't matter if you are Flippin' Burgers or Building Rocket parts, they still apply to everything you do.!

"Attention to Detail" is obvious. You have to see and check everything.

"Personal Responsibility" is the part where you don't let anything you found in the "Attention to Detail" portion of the exercise, go out the door! And if you screwed up something you need to fess up to it!

The Personal Responsibility part also extends to your clear assessment of your abilities and also to the capabilities of your equipment.

Hence the need for good equipment in the beginning, and the willingness to learn how to use it effectively becomes and ethical component to the craft.

Anything else is Hack Work !, and also means you don't really give a ship about what you are doing. It also means I got no use for you, and you damn sure aren't gonna be Flippin' my Burgers!

The one place which I believe you should never see shoddy work is in Guns.

Guns are too sacred a tool to be disrespected in such a way. It should also be noted that the entire Machinist's Discipline revolves around the making of Interchangeable Parts for Guns!

They are the things that make all men equal, despite what the creator may or may not have intended,,,

as that hadn't worked out that great until the evolution of man corrected it just recently.

Randy

[farmbif]

its all a matter if you might come across one that is still in good shape, the sb9's are great lathes but nothing lasts forever. ive got three of them but I was never really a machinist and never did real precision work. in fact I have not used them in years and the probably should sell them off.

[uscra112]

Don't knock primitive equipment. Ever see pictures of Harry Pope's lathe?

[Graybeard96]

I am no professional Machinist but have a tiny but well equipped Shop in which I can fix most anything including cutting a Gear on my Chinese made Combination Lath/Mill as sold by Grizzly.

I am a sucker for buying used but unless you know how to evaluate and measure to be sure the used Lathe in question is not worn out, I would strongly suggest asking a experienced Machinist for his opinion before purchase. Another thing is Lathes are like Boats, as soon you had one for awhile you wish you had a bigger one.

Cheers

[Scrounge]

I am no professional Machinist but have a tiny but well equipped Shop in which I can fix most anything including cutting a Gear on my Chinese made Combination Lath/Mill as sold by Grizzly.

I am a sucker for buying used but unless you know how to evaluate and measure to be sure the used Lathe in question is not worn out, I would strongly suggest asking a experienced Machinist for his opinion before purchase. Another thing is Lathes are like Boats, as soon you had one for awhile you wish you had a bigger one.

Cheers

Yes! Sort of like alcohol, too. You get one, and then you need another, then they get together and decide you need another... Bro is delivering my 4th lathe/3rd mill tomorrow, Lord willing and the creek don't rise. Smithy 3-in-1 combination machine.

[30calflash]

Although it's been a while I acquired a 9" SB lathe that had seen very little real use.

A friends grandfather started looking into getting one before WW2 was on the horizon. Had multiple letters to & from the company regarding what his best choice for purchase would be. Then in 1940 he received a letter stating no further sales will be made as the government has set procedures to acquire equipment due to the start up of preparing for the war.

He had to wait until the late 40's to get his order in and he purchased the 9" lathe with accessories brand new from SB himself. I have the correspondence that came with the equipment. He had it in his home until his passing and I acquired it in a trade from my friend.

So, there are clean older machines or rebuilts out there, time, patience and luck required.

[DeadWoodDan]

I'll add another vote for Grizzly! Call and talk with them. The owner is well known in the shooting world and has tailored his business to help other shooters.

[W.R.Buchanan]

A new SB9 could be OK if you can find one. A gently used one could be made OK if you knew how to do it. Most people don't even know how to level a lathe properly and can't understand why their machine cuts tapers?

My point from the beginning of this thread is to push people towards better machinery. Better machinery takes less skill to run effectively, a nd as a result your beginners work will be much better than if you try to learn on an older looser machine. Like I said earlier a worn out Monarch 10EE or a worn out Hardinge HLV are better than a brand new South Bend still in the box!

Arguably the best engine lathes ever made were the Mori Seiki 17" lathes. I have ran one and it was spectacular. It would do exactly what you told it to do, light or heavy cuts didn't matter. Close by are Graziano 12" lathes which are Excellent. They have an 8 speed gearbox which is controlled by the on /off lever and are also very accurate. Finding good ones of those is not all that easy either. I ran one once that was brand new, and then found it in another shop down the road set up right next to a Water Jet Machine covered in Garnet Powder. A friend bought it and we took it to the .25 car wash to clean it before complete disassembly. It is now in his garage, but it suffered from the misuse.

You've got to take care of your machines. Garages are Notoriously Filthy places and your machines need to stay covered when not in use. Dirt is the biggest enemy of all machinery. You'll note that all car engines have Air Filters. I have never seen a machine tool with an air filter. Have you?

And Harry Pope was far from a beginner.

Randy

[uscra112]

When I was in the machine tool rebuilding business in the '80s we used to say that the rebuilder's best friend was the air nozzle. Sloppy operators would use it to blow the chips away, but at the same time blew them past the way wipers.

[M-Tecs]

And Harry Pope was far from a beginner.

Randy

And his lathe was far from a worn out piece of junk. It most likely had Babbitt bearing he cast himself. He designed and built his rifling machine himself.

[uscra112]

He did rework it, but it started life as a treadle-powered machine. Treadle as in the old time singer sewing machines.

Something most people don't know is that he farmed out most of his machine work. The only thing he always did himself was chamber and rifle the barrels.

[country gent]

Grizzly is making or having lathes made under the south bend name now. So a new one may be ready and waiting.

[Bent Ramrod]

This thread is turning into an apples vs. oranges argument.

If one is a professional, making things for sale, it follows logically that one wants the maximum production per man-hour to maximize one’s profits. New equipment can be justified on a business plan for financing, paid for in installments, and amortized for taxes. And the turnkey setup that results can crank out the “widgets” with no side issues.

An amateur is not making things for others (at least not often), only wants to make things for hobby use, and is not likely to take out a loan to finance his hobby. For him, capital equipment is a major expense, whereas his time is only as valuable as he thinks it is. If he’s taking away from the time he’d otherwise spend crying along with Oprah on the TV, it’s not necessarily an unendurable burden learning the quirks of a “worn-out” machine.

In the reality I occupy, most gun enthusiasts who are rich enough to buy new machinery don’t do so. They send their phat stacks to their favorite mechanic, and post on line as “we” complete “our build.”

The new equipment out of China might be better now, but I’ve had occasion to review 20 years’ accumulation of Home Shop Machinist Magazine for tips on refurbs and accessories for my “junk,” and the reviews of some of that (then) new imported machinery certainly weren’t of the sort that would send me running to buy one. Often, the best that the reviewers could say was that the importer was anxious to help and eventually made good. These were amateur users, by the way; not connected to the magazine itself, except by means of sending in writeups.

But, I do like old machinery, like I like old guns. So I am biased that way. If I ever decided to “turn pro,” with the highest production rate I could achieve on the newest equipment, I’d still starve to death in a couple weeks. I get a lot of good fun and education out of fixing up my old junker guns with my old junk machines. The frustrations I endure are seldom the fault of my equipment, either.

[country gent]

Bent Ramrod, In the 2nd shop I worked the newest lathe was 1952 monarch 14 X 60 but heres the kicker, construction on the plant started in 1955 so the tool room machines were bought used here. The mills were all this era also. surface grinders and od grinder were of this era also. We got very little in the line of additional machines and very few brand new ones. Our first cnc machine center was a used mitsibishi in 94 pr so.

Yes its nice to buy a brand new machine and wear with it. But a lot can be saved buy a good used machine and learning to "take the play out" The first job shop I hired in to ( 1976) was mostly converted flat belt machines. Shapers, horizontal mills and round ram BP. While we didnt machine as fast as the "modern shops" we did do accurate work and a lot of it. I have to wonder at times how many in todays shops have used a shaper. We did a lot of work there including splitting hubs, key ways, occasional tooling. How many have ganged up several cutters on a horizontals arbor to cut a shape in one pass. How many have done a true precission lay out on a surface plate with a vernieer height gage and Jo Blocks. How many have scrapped a surface true flat and square by hand to bring a used part back to use.

One of the problems with used machines is they normally arnt solid enough to run the carbide everyone thinks they need, But then they probably werent when they were brand new. Good ole HSS sharpened and honed then ran at proper speeds and feeds wiill make these old machines shine. You have to work with what you have and how it was meant to run.

[uscra112]

Old tools can't run at spindle speeds and feeds that take advantage of carbide, but there's no reason not to use it. You have to stick to speeds and feeds as for HSS tooling. Which is what I do with my WW2 era S.B. 10" Heavy. It is a particular slowpoke, but carbide cuts cleaner, and at such slow speeds it never gets dull.

[M-Tecs]

Worn out is worn out. Backlash and various other ailments can be compensated for. Worn-out spindle bearings are not one of them. Same for very worn lathe beds. The US made 70 vintage heavy iron manual machines are wonderful if you can find one that is not worn-out or the the wear is within your skill set to rebuild.

[W.R.Buchanan]

The old lathes all had Cone Bearings in the spindles. These can be made to run nearly perfect as they wear in. Crystal Lake OD Grinder still are being made with cone bearings because they are the most accurate type of spindle bearing there is . Boley Jewelers lathes always had cone bearings.

That said, many machines can be rebuilt to better than new. My 1956 Bridgeport was rebuilt by me in 1987 and got all the ways reground including the z axis. I even repainted it. I run it nearly every day, and it is still very tight because it is hard to wear out a quality machine, unless you don't keep it clean or run it dry all the time.

The one thing that separates good machinery from the cheese is the design of the basic castings and their weight. Weight is the primary factor in Rigidity and the way a bed is designed will contribute to the rigidity as well. But weight is still the biggest factor.

Rigidity is the most important single factor in lathe or mill performance. it the machine is not rigid it will not produce good finishes simply because it is vibrating all over the place. as soon as the resonance frequency of the cut matches the frequency of the machine the finish goes out the window as the machine walks out the door..

The heavier the machine, the lower the Resonance Frequency and the heavier a cut it will withstand before it affects finishes.

The Mori Seiki Engine Lathe I mentioned above was a 17x60 machine and it was a Tank! I bet it weighed 4,000lbs!. It would take a .500 cut on a piece is 304 stainless with no problems whatsoever. Then when you dialed in another .500 it took .500! Not .501 or .499.

A machine like that will make even a novice look good. They are not common and they are definitely not cheap. But my point is the design of the machine bed and the weight of the machine were the key factors of why they were so good. Plus that Mori Seiki was not known for making junk.

Hardinge Lathes have one piece Headstock and Bed Castings that are keyed together, and then a Hardened Steel Dovetail Plate is attached to the ground surface of the casting insuring the the bed is dead strait and solid and can't move in any direction in relation to the spindle. It also insures that the machine will remain accurate thruout a very long service life. My Hardinge Chucker was made in 1962, and it will still repeat to tenths all day long. I paid $2500 for it in 1989 and it has paid for itself many times over.

Anyway just getting a decent machine will help you learn machining alot faster than trying to learn how to cope with all the ideocracies of old worn out Junk. That's not to say old worn out junk can't be made to perform, it simply means you as a "newbie" won't be able to make it perform, and depending on the level of "junkedness", many of us wouldn't be able to either.

Like I said,,, "Life's too short!"

Randy

[Bent Ramrod]

Obviously, "Old Iron" isn't for everybody. From the late, great J.R. Williams.

278570

But I don't have to produce to keep my job, that's for sure. Retirement is great that way.

A friend got a shaper at an auction for $50. There were no bids; the thing was nearly unused, and the auctioneer begged somebody to offer him $50 and haul it away.

He set it up in the corner of his tool and die shop. Shapers really have no place in the First World, unless you have some strategic savvy. He uses it for roughing stock. It clicks away in the corner, and every once in a while, one of the guys leaves what they are doing, walks over to the shaper, turns the downfeed, flips the ratchet and goes back to his task. When the traverse goes all the way in the other direction, somebody else walks over and repeats. There's always somebody who can leave off what he's doing for a few seconds or a minute for an adjustment or removal of the finished piece. A new piece goes into the vise, and the process is repeated.

It's like having an extra machinist working slowly, but for free. One of the better purchases my friend said he made, and he has all the latest and greatest equipment.

I made a High Wall lower tang on my Atlas shaper from a railroad spike once. Drilled the holes with my Unimat. Took a while, and wouldn't be mistaken for factory work by a Serious Collector, but it functions fine. Shapers are really Industrial; it's soothing to watch them work, and it sure beats sawing and filing by hand.

I'd get a planer, if I had the room, just for the Cool factor. Don't hardly see any of them around anymore, though.

[uscra112]

OH! That cartoon rang a bell. His stuff was published in some periodical I read many years ago. What was it?

Planers were in a class of "machines that made machines". A planer could cut a long machine bed to be straighter than the planer itself was. Place I once worked had one with a 70 foot stroke. Gone for scrap now, I'm sure.

[M-Tecs]

OH! That cartoon rang a bell. His stuff was published in some periodical I read many years ago. What was it?

Planers were in a class of "machines that made machines". A planer could cut a long machine bed to be straighter than the planer itself was. Place I once worked had one with a 70 foot stroke. Gone for scrap now, I'm sure.

You speak of the planers as a machine of the past. Not the case at all. They still can be purchased new. Just google "Gantry Planer Milling Machines". I am aware of one company that just ordered a 120 foot CNC Gantry Planer/Milling machine.

A company I used to work had 70 footer Planer/Mill also. They had a surface grinder with a 5O foot magnet and about a 65 foot max stroke.

Most people also think Babbitt bearings are a thing of the past. Mostly true but they still have specialty applications.

Timken roller bearing have been available since 1899 and in the precision variety this style bearing has been used in lathe spindles for a long time. The Timken style tapered roller bearings replaced Babbitt because of lower maintenance (didn't have to oil daily), serviceability (replacement didn't require an almost dead skill set), and generally higher speeds. In the same machine the Babbit type bearings could handle higher cutting loads, better surface finish, reduced machining chatter and still to this day provide for greater precision than any other type bearing other than air bearings.

Babbitt bearings machines are still manufactured for Ultra High Precision applications like some of the high end centerless grinders. Same for very high load applications in very large items

The Atlas 10's were available in Babbitt or roller bearing. Some of the South Bends lathes also had Babbitt along with a bunch of pre 40's machines. Some of the new and older light duty lathes use bronze bushing.

On a side note it is claimed one of the first commercial manufacturing operations that will be done in space is ultra high precision bearings. Per the bearing manufactures due to gravity they can't product more accurate bearing than are currently available.

[uscra112]

??? A gantry machine is not a planer. Nor is a planer mill. If there's new planers being made, I musta missed 'em.

I had a long and sordid history with aerospace gantry mills when I was in the machine tool rebuild biz. The Onsrud we did was good. Cincinnatis were prime, but I never got to work on one. The worst ones were Shin Nippon Koki. (SNK) Junk when they were brand new.

No, I lie. The worst ones were the first rebuild project I was ever put in charge of. Two 70' Farnhams. Gantry machines made during the Korean War by a company which was actually a specialist in woodworking machinery. Took me almost two years to get them sorted out. The fact that my predecessor had sold the Air Force on some insanely stupid modifications didn't help.

</rant>

Kinda OT ain't we! From bench lathes to machines bigger than a railroad car!

[M-Tecs]

Maybe I am using the wrong terminology? It's been my understanding that when using a single point non rotating tool it is a planer. When the milling heads are attached it becomes a mill. I always thought the little Bridgeport Heads looked out of place on the massive Cincinnati's. Even on the little ones like this one. http://www.belmontmachinery.com/inventory/48-x120-cincinnati-hypro-planer

On the new 120 foot CNC Gantry Planer/Milling machine that does have a planer type single point tool attachment. It is with a moving bridge style.

[uscra112]

That's a planer, (mill) sure enough. The table travels. A gantry machine has a fixed table, often huge. and the bridge (the gantry) travels along it on ways. The big aerospace shops love them. They can set up a whole family of fixtures, maybe for parts only a few feet long, and send the gantry to the fixture. Meanwhile an operator can be unloading/loading a fixture on another part of the stationary bed. Because they produce parts in "ship sets" (i.e. only as many as needed for one airplane), the fixtures stay in place for years at a time. This is undoubtedly becoming less common now that composites are taking over in airframe design. Although the idea may now be used for the "tape layers" that build up parts on a form. I've been away from it all for over twelve years, and haven't kept up.

Here's an unusual gantry machine used on the F-35 program at Lockheed. It has the gantry ways about 15 feet in the air, to keep them away from the abrasive swarf generated when machining composites.

https://www.mmsonline.com/articles/composites-machining-for-the-f-35

Late in the article it mentions an equally huge Zeiss CMM that does the inspection. That's my baby. I spent a whole winter as site manager installing that thing. The Droop & Rein guys hated us. Among other things it was we who proved that the foundation under the FOG machine was sinking!

[M-Tecs]

That's a planer, (mill) sure enough. The table travels. A gantry machine has a fixed table, often huge. and the bridge (the gantry) travels along it on ways.

That's were I get confused. Your definition is what I was taught in the late 70's but in the the mid-80's the company I worked for had both types and they called both types planers. Both types had vertical and horizontal milling attachments in addition to the single point holder attachment.

The current adds for the large twin column machines call them Gantry Planer Mills regardless if the table or the bridge moves?????

My background was mostly fixtures and smaller specialty machines but a good buddy of mine was a planer operator.

Thanks for the link. Zeiss CMM's of that size are incredible machines.

[W.R.Buchanan]

The big gantry mills are used for machining wing spars for airplanes. I have seen ones at Boeing that are 150 feet long+.

Shapers are good for making long grooves in pieces that you can't readily broach. They are kind of obsolete but still fun to watch people dodging the hot chips that fly off them. You learn quickly where not to stand.

Randy

[Scrounge]

That's were I get confused. Your definition is what I was taught in the late 70's but in the the mid-80's the company I worked for had both types and they called both types planers. Both types had vertical and horizontal milling attachments in addition to the single point holder attachment.

The current adds for the large twin column machines call them Gantry Planer Mills regardless if the table or the bridge moves?????

My background was mostly fixtures and smaller specialty machines but a good buddy of mine was a planer operator.

Thanks for the link. Zeiss CMM's of that size are incredible machines.

I think where you're getting confused is between shapers/planers and milling machines. Shapers and planers use a single point tool much like a lathe tool to do their cutting. On a shaper, the cutting head that holds the tool is on a reciprocating ram, and the table does not move during the cutting stroke. On a planer, the cutting head is on a gantry that doesn't move during the cutting stroke, while the table does the moving.

this is a video of a very small planer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ez2xebWiN5o

this is a video of a very small shaper like the one I have: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bqqArCxkMtc

This is a video of a moderately sized gantry mill, which can have both the table and the gantry moving at the same time, and some of them can have multiple cutters running likewise: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MgH7zf-xmE8 They are amazing machines! My budget will not ever allow me to have one... :( What do they call that? Champaign taste, beer budget!

Times change, language changes, and the only universal constant is change. Shapers and planers are obsolete, except for certain things they do better than anything else. Old joke about shapers is that you can make anything but money with a shaper. And that is why they're obsolete. In the 1st World, anyway. Still in production in the 3rd World because you can set and forget them, and don't need computers to run them. In the 1st World, they're still used in some very few specialty shops, and among aficionados. I know of one commercial shop in the Pacific Northwest that has shapers on their production floor, and in a little private museum, as the owner collects and restores antique machine tools.

One thing a shaper is good for that is difficult to impossible to do on a mill is making internal splines. Most places use broaching and the tooling is ferociously expensive relative to a single-point tool like a lathe tool.

Bill

[uscra112]

One of the reasons for my abiding interest in 19th century guns is the fun of trying to sort out how they were machined. In several instances a shaper would have been the only way. Guns aren't designed that way anymore. And authentic replicas can't be made unless you have a shaper. The design has to be altered otherwise.

Broaching is another process used a lot then but not so much today. But sometimes it is the right way. I can cite a case where Ford was talked into abandoning broaching to finish cylinder head joint faces for a V-6 engine used in early Windstar minivans, in favor of milling. The result was a face that wasn't flat, and a round zillion blown head gaskets that had to be fixed under warranty. I was unlucky enough to be the guy that identified the problem. The machine tool builder hated my guts forever after.

[farmbif]

I love the old manual machines and seem to constantly be on the lookout for old American made south bend, LeBlond, monarch and Bridgeports wells-index and others guess its just a habit I can't give up. never did learn how to use the newer digital control machines

[uscra112]

Before CNC, machines had to be inherently accurate. Straight, flat, square and parallel, we used to say. Making accurate leadscrews was an art in itself.

Computer comtrollers have a raft of registers that apply corrections for known mechanical errors, and the builders no longer take such care. They just set up the laser interferometer and calibrate the errors away. A problem is that the machines aren't really stable, so they require periodic recalibration.

(Old machine tool rebuilder here, saw this happening with my own eyes in the '70s and '80s. At one point I nearly bought a laser system with the intent of becoming a recalibration contractor; there's that much business out there.)

A rare book that is a good read is "The Foundations of Mechanical Accuracy" by Wayne R. Moore.