38 special with a .35 rifle boolit, Help needed!

[bpatterson84]

So, this project is a work in progress. A Ruger 77/357, cut to 16" and suppressed. I cast for 358 Winchester and 350 Rem Mag also, and like this Mihec 359-200gr hollow point projectile, wanted to use it here in my mini-35 cal rifle as well. This magazine is very limited in OAL, so Im having to be creative with my cartridge. Because the boolit is very long, Im using a 38 special case, as it has to be seated in a 357 case so deeply it's ridiculous. With the 38 special case, Im still seating past the crimp groove, but it's not too crazy. Ive determined proper seating depth, and used a round nose seating die to round out the edges of the meplat of this projectile and this greatly aids in feeding, actually the current exterior dimensions feed like a dream. Im about to start load development, and have run into several problems with finding starting load numbers.

Almost no load data on 200gr loads for 38 special exists. I am aware of the old 200gr Police Special.

Due to the dimensions of this cartridge, it's seated rather deeply, and so any existing load data is moot.

This is primarily a subsonic cartridge, 1000fps is target velocity. I think Im going to want a supersonic load with HS6, lilgun or w296 also.


Does anyone have any suggestions? Due to the fact this is a bolt action, Im not too concerned with pressure staying at 16,000psi as with standard 38 special loads, so as long as there's no adverse pressure signs, sky's the limit, the 357 is 40k or so, so that's fine.

I already have test loads of 3.6gr trailboss, 3.5gr, 3.8gr, 4.0gr 4.2 and 4.5 W231 Ill be trying next range trip.

I have a lot of powders, does anyone have any starting load suggestions? This is going to be a plinking load, I like to shoot a lot. First weekend I had this rifle earlier this month, I put 500rds of my 158gr 38 special load, and also learned that it hates my wider meplat 357 loads, hence me playing with this idea.252868

252869


Different OAL's and meplat profiles
252870

252871

[Outpost75]

In my BSA-Martini single-shot, 4.2 grains of Bullseye gives 1050 fps and groups well with Accurate 36-190T

252872

[Photog]

With 200gr boolit, I would go with Power Pistol, right about 6 grains as a start to keep it under 1000fps. The alliant load book only goes up to 158 grain cast and goes up to 8.5 grains for jacketed in 357mag. I have run my 125 grain cast with 8.5 grains of Power Pistol in my 38special 1866 Uberti, and it feels good, no pressure signs, yes its +P+ range. I am going to try 20/28 (really close to Unique), the additional speed I worked up didn't give me any better accuracy than my light Tightgroup loads. Be carefull with the heavy bullets and faster powders, hence my recommendation for nothing faster than Power Pistol/N350.

[P Flados]

Shortly after the Lee 200 came out I went looking for load data. I found


38 Sp - 200 gr

1976 WW manual has

3.8 gr 231, 770 fps, 15500 cup
7.2 gr 630, 780 fps, 15500 cup


Old Dupont manual (85?)
1.50" OAL, 6" barrel


3.0 gr 700x, 725 fps, 15000
4.6 gr 800x, 725 fps, 15500
3.4 gr PB, 760 fps, 15800
3.5 gr SR7625, 755 fps, 15800
4.3 gr SR4756,740 fps, 15700
9.2 gr I4227, 870 fps, 15900


WW has 357 data with

5.5 gr 231, 1060 fps, 42500 cup
10.8 gr 630, 1270 fps, 40000 cup
12.4 gr 296, 1335 fps, 35000 cup

[Drm50]

I loaded 200gr cast 358 rifle bullets into 357cases cut so they would fit in chambers of Ruger Blackhawk. They weren't light loads. I cut 357 cases because I wanted the magnum case head. I'm not sure if they were cut to 38sp length. They were trimmed to fit. That's been a good while ago. I still have some of those I didn't shoot up.

[Silvercreek Farmer]

You might try 2400 for your supersonic load. Keep an eye out for case web bulges as you approach top end loads. Haven't witnessed it personally, but others have noted that since the feed ramp leaves an area unsupported that this may be a weak spot in higher end loads.

[Silvercreek Farmer]

PM Bluejay75. I believe he has done quite a bit of work with your combo.

[bluejay75]

I cloned this boolit for the exact load you’re running.

I have loaded 38 special cases with that boolit with HS6, Unique, 2400, Lil Gun, H110. All work. Except lil gun will only give you a couple shots before the neck splits.

After all that experimenting I decided to just use 357 brass. Go deeper in the case and collet crimp.
The 11 grains 2400 loads were the best as far as accuracy in 38 cases. 14.5 H110 is best in 357 cases.

Shim your bolt and consider getting a VQ or Timney target sear.

My most accurate load in this gun is a Larsen 358-185 with 15.5 H110 SRP. MOA load.

[bpatterson84]

I cloned this boolit for the exact load you’re running.

I have loaded 38 special cases with that boolit with HS6, Unique, 2400, Lil Gun, H110. All work. Except lil gun will only give you a couple shots before the neck splits.

After all that experimenting I decided to just use 357 brass. Go deeper in the case and collet crimp.
The 11 grains 2400 loads were the best as far as accuracy in 38 cases. 14.5 H110 is best in 357 cases.

Shim your bolt and consider getting a VQ or Timney target sear.

My most accurate load in this gun is a Larsen 358-185 with 15.5 H110 SRP. MOA load.

Good advice on the Lil Gun, I hadn't considered that, but it makes sense. Also, in the pictures the cases are 38 special, 357 loaded to that depth with that ogive look silly and I haven't tried, but the shoulder may impede feeding. I know the slower powders are more ideal, and will exclusively be used for supersonic loads. I have the Volquartsen trigger already, and it is excellent.

There's entirely new factors when it comes to suppressing a rifle and going for maximum noise reduction for these plinking loads. Yes, you look at velocity, and this is where most people start and finish their development. Something not considered, is gas volume and exit pressure, as these directly correlate to maximizing a suppressor. I know it's counter intuitive from a load development perspective, especially with heavier projectiles, but more energetic powders in smaller volumes are preferable in this venture. Less powder mass, higher peak pressures and acceleration, the lower the exiting gas volume and the more efficient the suppressor is. All a can does is slow gas expansion and absorb gas heat, that's it. Another knock against Lil Gun, as it's a particularly hot powder IIRC.

This is describing an ideal load, and Im not there yet, Im still looking.

[bpatterson84]

Shortly after the Lee 200 came out I went looking for load data. I found


38 Sp - 200 gr

1976 WW manual has

3.8 gr 231, 770 fps, 15500 cup
7.2 gr 630, 780 fps, 15500 cup


Old Dupont manual (85?)
1.50" OAL, 6" barrel


3.0 gr 700x, 725 fps, 15000
4.6 gr 800x, 725 fps, 15500
3.4 gr PB, 760 fps, 15800
3.5 gr SR7625, 755 fps, 15800
4.3 gr SR4756,740 fps, 15700
9.2 gr I4227, 870 fps, 15900


WW has 357 data with

5.5 gr 231, 1060 fps, 42500 cup
10.8 gr 630, 1270 fps, 40000 cup
12.4 gr 296, 1335 fps, 35000 cup

P Flados, Thank you! I need to collect more old manuals, great info in there. That WW data is going to be especially useful, as I was thinking along those lines anyway. Thank you for sharing!!!!

[P Flados]

FYI, I acquired those old manuals as freebies from the Fort Worth gun stores where I bought supplies in my late teens.

Also, I noted that I left off the Dupont 357 stuff. Here are some of those:

357 Mag, 200 gr lead, 1.590 COL
700x 4.3 795
I4227 12.5 956
800x 7.5 995

[bluejay75]

5 grains of unique or 6 grains of HS6 will get you there.

[gunarea]

Hey bpatterson84
Originally cast from a Saeco 3 cavity mould, I used a 200 gr rnfp in a Marlin 336c chambered in 35 rem. Now shooting Lawnsteel, those same projectiles came to be used in a S&W mod 66, Ruger nm Blackhawk, T/C Contender and Uberti rolling block. ILSA rules set velocity limits and projectile weights for the different shooting divisions. My Saeco mould has since been replaced with a RCBS 2 cavity of the same design. Several of the ILSA members with whom I compete, have and still use this slug regularly in our competition. ILSA speed limit is 850fps for the division it fits in. However it is seldom running even 800fps in order to be used without sight adjustment when employed with standard small caliber division ammunition. In a Ruger or S&W revolver, 38 special cases are used with col adjusted for fit. In my Uberti rolling block chambered in 357 mag, the col is adjusted to -.003" chamber length. Matched R-P 357mag brass, charged with 2.75gr Alliant Promo, it is pinpoint accurate at +/- 70yds. No gas check is needed or used but the alloy must be soft (7 to 9 bhn) for proper obturation. In the rolling block action, only a light collet crimp tension is needed. This load should do just fine in your bolt actions and lend themselves quite well for suppressor target shooting. Please, I would be most interested in any of your data acquired from distances past 75yds. With an ILSA target set, the distances can fluctuate as much as 30yds within a single game. Keeping poi the same from one distance to another is part of the "Bulleteer" performance criterion. This particular load also delivered identical poi from a Thompson Center Contender, chambered in 357mag and sighted in for a 160gr rnfp, chrono tested at 810fps. Since your inquiry was made with closed chamber involved, no revolver load data is included. We at ILSA use this projectile on a regular basis and have come to enjoy the effectiveness it has shown as a target round on steel. Contact any ILSA participant using this slug for particulars on their specific load levels, loading techniques and expected performance. 200gr 38s are old news to us. Feel free to request any further needed information.
Roy

[Bookworm]

Hodgdon #25, 5th printing Sept 1989
252954

[RU shooter]

5 grains of unique or 6 grains of HS6 will get you there.
5 gr of Unique is what I use with the RD190 and the lee 200 is my smith 686

[bpatterson84]

5 gr of Unique is what I use with the RD190 and the lee 200 is my smith 686

Im going to try that one with the next jug of Unique I see that isn't 140% normal price hahaha!

[bpatterson84]

Hey bpatterson84
Originally cast from a Saeco 3 cavity mould, I used a 200 gr rnfp in a Marlin 336c chambered in 35 rem. Now shooting Lawnsteel, those same projectiles came to be used in a S&W mod 66, Ruger nm Blackhawk, T/C Contender and Uberti rolling block. ILSA rules set velocity limits and projectile weights for the different shooting divisions. My Saeco mould has since been replaced with a RCBS 2 cavity of the same design. Several of the ILSA members with whom I compete, have and still use this slug regularly in our competition. ILSA speed limit is 850fps for the division it fits in. However it is seldom running even 800fps in order to be used without sight adjustment when employed with standard small caliber division ammunition. In a Ruger or S&W revolver, 38 special cases are used with col adjusted for fit. In my Uberti rolling block chambered in 357 mag, the col is adjusted to -.003" chamber length. Matched R-P 357mag brass, charged with 2.75gr Alliant Promo, it is pinpoint accurate at +/- 70yds. No gas check is needed or used but the alloy must be soft (7 to 9 bhn) for proper obturation. In the rolling block action, only a light collet crimp tension is needed. This load should do just fine in your bolt actions and lend themselves quite well for suppressor target shooting. Please, I would be most interested in any of your data acquired from distances past 75yds. With an ILSA target set, the distances can fluctuate as much as 30yds within a single game. Keeping poi the same from one distance to another is part of the "Bulleteer" performance criterion. This particular load also delivered identical poi from a Thompson Center Contender, chambered in 357mag and sighted in for a 160gr rnfp, chrono tested at 810fps. Since your inquiry was made with closed chamber involved, no revolver load data is included. We at ILSA use this projectile on a regular basis and have come to enjoy the effectiveness it has shown as a target round on steel. Contact any ILSA participant using this slug for particulars on their specific load levels, loading techniques and expected performance. 200gr 38s are old news to us. Feel free to request any further needed information.
Roy

THank you Roy, that's very interesting information in a discipline Ive not heard of. Also very interesting and makes sense about low pressure obturation, while Im not adhering to regular 38spcl pressure guidelines, Im hoping to not have trouble with my 11br lead. We shall see!