Gonna try 3 different fillers

[jonk]

This should prove entertaining...

I just ordered some PSB. I already have Pufflon and dacron tuft on hand. So I thought, why not?

I'm planning on loading 40 rounds of ammo; same load (haven't settled on that yet), probably out of a 30-06 for a test. 10 each of each filler type, plus 10 without filler. I will clean between each string.

-Which filler will group the best?
-Worst?
-Which will lead least?

Will post results. :)

[beagle]

I've always had the best luck with dacron but who knows. I'll be looking for the results./beagle

[kir_kenix]

I've used dryer lint as a filler with pretty good results as well. Not sure if it is as good as some of the commercial stuff, but it seems to do its job. Looking forward to your results Jonk, and the comparisons you are able to give between them.

Going to shoot these over a chrony? I'd be interested if there are any differences there as well.

[jonk]

I hadn't thought of a Chrony, but surely can do so.

[Bullshop]

Why not make it 4? What I have been using for proly going on 20 years is PP, packing popcorn. Yup the stuff you hate to get in your Midway order that wont dump outa the box due to a static cling. Just roll it between fingers and slide in enough that its slightly compressed between boolit and powder. Its cheap (free) readily available and about weightless. Has been doing a good job for me for quite some time now.
I used to buy super grex then when no longer available then the special mix from balistic products. Now I dont buy anything because the same thing is free in PP.
BIC/BS

[kir_kenix]

I've used packing peanuts before in the past as well. They left my barrel very sooty so I stopped using them. Perhaps it was the load and not the peanuts, so I'll give them a try again.

I also have a friend who swears by some sort of pink insulation that hes been using for years and years and years. Must work ok, because he prints some fairly impressive groups at the range.

[454PB]

I've been using a liftime supply of Kapok removed from a life preserver many years ago. It's only draw back is the stuff flying around at the shot and other shooters looking at you strangely.

[mooman76]

I haven't experimented allot yet but I did try drier lint and the poly and that both worked basically the same. Since they both work the same for me I'd rather put cotton drier lint down the barrel instead of plastic.

[runfiverun]

another vote for the dryer lint. you can also vary the lint by what you dry.
whites seem to give a denser fabric.

[Blue2]

I would think that as long as the dryer lint was cotton then you are good to go but if it has man made fibers in it like nylon etc. then it could melt and coat the bore?

[DonMountain]

Has anybody tried the pink Owens-Corning fiberglass insulation? I would think that it would be relitively fire-proof and wouldn't burn in the barrel like a plastic fabric might? I looked in the store for "dacron" and couldn't find anything listed. Is that the same thing as "polyfiber"?

[mpbarry1]

Don Mountain: glass is harder than steel. I wouldn't put it in my barrel. I think it would errode it terribly with repeated use. JMO.

[runfiverun]

dacron is the stuff you use in quilts.
you can get a roll of it at the walmart or craft store for about 7-10 bucks.

[longbow]

I use primarily COW but then my reasons for fillers are different than some. My goals were to protect PB boolits at higher than normal PB velocities and to allow use of slower/position sensitive powders. The powder issue is that reloading supplies can be scarce where I live so versatility is handy and a reduced load of slow powder with filler can work well but not so with fluffy filler. Granular fillers give essentially 100% loading density.

A couple of side benefits of using granular "solid" fillers are that you can't accidentally double charge because the filler will overflow the case and they can replace a gas check at least to a certain extent.

I know that granular fillers are a hot topic of discussion regarding case stretch, chamber ringing, filler packing behind the shoulder, over pressure, etc. but my view is that if a load is worked up with granular filler then there should be no problem with pressure. Even relatively light loads are well beyond the pressure required to extrude that material. After all, we extrude lead through the barrel.

So far I have had no trouble using COW though I think PSB would be better for a "solid" filler.

The fluffy fillers seem to be best suited to light charges of relatively fast powders and relatively low velocity loads.

I will be interested to see how your testing goes.

What powder are you planning to use?

Longbow

[nanuk]

Holy old thread Batman

PolyFiber is what is in Polyester fiber pillows. buy a real cheap pillow. You'll have LOTS of fiber

[nanuk]

Holy old thread Batman

PolyFiber is what is in Polyester fiber pillows. buy a real cheap pillow. You'll have LOTS of fiber

[longbow]

Good catch Nanuk!

I never even noticed the date on the original post. I guess now I have to go searching to see if Jonk ever got his testing done.

Longbow

[jonk]

I did.

11mm Mauser the Pufflon worked best.

30-06 dacron worked best.

In no case did PSB work best but it sometimes did as well as the dacron.

This is in general, across the board with various bullet weights.

I tried it in 11mm, 45/70, 8mm, 30-06, 6.5X55, .303, and a few other .30 cartridges. Generally this was all for medium burn rate powders like 4895.

[curator]

My results in a similar experiment last year using .45-70, .303 British, 6.5X55, and .30-06 with IMR3031, SR4759, and mil-surp wc680 and wc860. PSB was the winner hands down, Fillers used were dacron fluff, Cream of Wheat, Pufflon, and Balistic products PSB. Not much noticeable difference with the .45-70 (405 grain boolit at 1350 fps) to be fair. PSB was only slightly more accurate with the .303 British (a 2-groover that tumbled cast bullets without fillers) PSB was much more accurate with signs of lower pressures in 6.5X55 and .30-06. Velocities were in the 1800 fps range. One thing I learned is PSB is pretty much non-compressable (like COW) so you'd better measure carefully or bullet seating becomes problematic

[rockrat]

I use grits. Alot coarser than COW

[Bullet Caster]

What are we doing here? Cooking or shooting? Grits and cream of wheat... BC

[303Guy]

I haven't done field shooting with grits. I like it but it did form a wad impressed into the base of my soft-ish boolits and stuck there. I still have not gotten hold of any cream of wheat so I still don't know what it actually is. I went for wheat bran for its ability to form a fibrous wad behind the boolit and fill the case volume enough to allow the use of slower powder. It doesn't raise pressure all that much but noticeably just the same.

[longbow]

jonk:

What sort of charges were you using?

From your post I understand you were using same charge with different fillers. Any signs of pressure using the "sold" fillers versus "fluff"?

Longbow

[DonMountain]

Would it be better to dry Cream of Wheat or Grits before loading? Or is the natural water content of these so low it wouldn't effect the loads if they sat for awhile before firing? Since I grow my own corn and grind my own grits I have potentially a huge supply of Grits to use as a filler?

[longbow]

Good question Don.

There are statements made that COW or other cereal fillers can transfer moisture to powder causing different burn rate and also that it can harden up and cause high pressures.

Personally I do not think so but that is just my opinion.

I can certainly agree that drying first would not be a bad thing but I do not think it necessary.

To test, I loaded up some ammunition with COW filler slightly compressed last October. The COW was from an open package so has had a chance to absorb whatever moisture it can from the atmosphere. I have separated some rounds to leave them for several months and will put them outside as well to give them every chance to harden, pack or whatever. Next spring or summer I will pull a boolit or two to check filler condition and if it appears okay I will shoot the rest and report.

My belief is that even moderate cast boolit loads produce way more pressure than is required to extrude the filler. So I do not think there will be any problem. After all, it is not uncommon to shoot boolits 0.001" to 0.003" over groove diameter so we "extrude" lead through our barrels.

Just my thoughts... at least until I test.

Longbow

[waksupi]

I tried grits in bottle neck cartridges. I was getting a ring of the grain still in the case after firing. I'm pretty sure it was dry, the humidity here in the cabin runs at around 10%. I quit using it.

[Swampman]

I don't use filler. I haven't had a problem.

[303Guy]

I've had that ring of filler (wheat bran) in one rifle's cases. This one has a sharp shoulder. The others have more gentle shoulder angles and don't form the ring. These are all 303 Brits. Wheat bran only compacts if there are bugs in it eating it and spinning silk. I've got an open packed of grits from two years or more back and it is still like new. Wheat bran on the other hand is nutritious one has to bake it before using to kill the bugs. Could the same thing happen to COW? Or is it too refined?

[DanM]

I am with the slow powder and COW crowd. I have gone through one 8 pound jug of IMR4350 per year for the last several years. Nearly all my cast rifle loads use 4350, magnum LR primers, and COW fill. My comparison testing showed significantly lower SD, slightly higher velocity, and equal or better accuracy with COW and the same loads using PSB or poly filler. This was with several medium case calibers. I always compress the filler. With COW, I always fill to the top of the neck, with a little overflow and compress with the boolit. Letting the COW slightly overflow the case also eliminates weighing the filler. Starting with 34grs 4350 and working up has always shown a sweet spot load somewhere above 1800fps in medium cases. Cartridges include 30-40 Krag, 303 British, 7.5x55, 7.62x54R, 30-06, 8x56 rimmed Hungarian, and 8x57. I have pulled boolits from year old plus cases, and yes the filler was hard, but that didn't seem to effect the performance of the load. True, I might do better with medium burn rate powders and more experimentation, but I am happy to use just one powder for most cartridges.

[BOOM BOOM]

DARN!
Dryer lint, Why didn't I think of that!:bigsmyl2::Fire::Fire:

[DanM]

COW doesn't seem to attract bugs, but it is a mouse magnet. I used to leave the loading tray on my work surface while filling cases with COW until I started noticing mouse poop amongst my tools. My new filling technique puts the loading tray in a large arco bin which catches all the spillage which is dumped back into the box. That change in technique plus a mouse hunting pit bull has eliminated that problem. Butchy the pit bull considers our basement his private hunting preserve. He is in his glory when proudly depositing a dead mouse in front of the kitchen sink.

[longbow]

DanM:

You and I seem to have the same goal. I like simple and versatile. The fewer things I need to stock the better as long as the results are acceptable.

How has your accuracy been in comparison to other powders or no filler loads?

Are you using GC boolits of PB boolits?

I have only loaded the .303 and straight walled cases with fillers but so far have had no problems at all. I might be reluctant to use filler in a large bodied case with sharp shoulder and small boolit like 7mm mag or .243 though. Since I do not load for them not a problem for me.

It would be interesting to find out how much slow powder gets extruded through the case neck like a filler in over bore cartridges with full loads. The entire powder charge surely doesn't burn in the cartridge. Of course powder is granular and wouldn't likely compress like cereal fillers so may flow better.

Longbow

[Maven]

What are we doing here? Cooking or shooting? Grits and cream of wheat... BC

Well, let's see: Ken Mollohan (Molly here) has been writing about COW loads for at least 25 yrs., (I guess you can also eat Cream of Wheat and grits?) so I don't think it's about cooking.

More seriously, as Curator found, some fillers work better than others. In fact, some fillers work better than others with some powders as well. E.g., when slow burning milsurp powders (WC 860, WC 872, IMR 5010) were dirt cheap ($3 - $7/lb. for 8 lbs.), fillers were found to improve their efficiency. I.e., extreme velocity spreads and standard deviations were reduced and less unburned powder was left behind. Although I never tried COW or grits, I did try PSB (spherical shot buffer, which Winchester called "Grex") and powdered bran ( a la Aladdin/Jay Downs from the old Shooters' Talk site).

My experience almost mirrored Curator's. To wit, PSB performed better than powdered bran in nominally .30cal. cartridges with CB's weighing 175gr. - 205gr. Second, small amounts of PSB (0.3cc - 1.0cc) worked better than equal amounts of powdered bran with SOME, slow burning milsurp powders (IMR 5010). With others, WC 860 specifically, the effect was minimal with the following exception: The 7.65 x 53mm Arg. Mau. when loaded with ~42gr. - 43gr. WC 860 + enough PSB (0.7cc - 1.0cc) to allow mild compression with Ly. #314299 (sized to .313") + LR mag. primers resulted in perfectly clean cases and little unburned powder in either the bbl. or case. OTOH, the absence of PSB left smudged cases and more unburned powder than I wanted.

Just some food for thought.

[DanM]

Longbow....I haven't seen even a hint of ringing with my compressed COW fill loads. From my reading on the subject, ringing has been observed when using a too small tuft of poly fiber fill,
and not with granulated fillers. IMHO, compression of the filler is the key to consistant performance with a slow powder like 4350 when used with my 1/2 to 2/3 case filling loads. (along with magnum primers) All my medium case rifle boolits are checked. I prefer loads above 1800fps, and I always assumed that gas checks were necessary at that pressure level. Accuracy is very good, bores are clean with no unburned powder, and of course no leading.

BTW....I tried grits, and saw no difference when compared to COW. I switched back to COW only because it was cheaper.

[FirstBrit]

I haven't done field shooting with grits. I like it but it did form a wad impressed into the base of my soft-ish boolits and stuck there. I still have not gotten hold of any cream of wheat so I still don't know what it actually is. I went for wheat bran for its ability to form a fibrous wad behind the boolit and fill the case volume enough to allow the use of slower powder. It doesn't raise pressure all that much but noticeably just the same.

Cream of wheat might be sold in New Zealand as semolina. At least that's the what it is called in UK.

Best regards,

Adrian - Germany.

[303Guy]

Thanks, FirstBrit. I'll see if'n I can find some.

I was using wheat bran with a 70% load of H4350/AR2209 to make sure it burned and did not detonate. It did produce consistent pressure signs on the primer. I found that using more powder and less filler didn't change the primer signs much but at near full load accuracy was non-existent. I was too scared to go less than 70%. When I chronie'd that load I found it was doing 1600fps with a 205gr boolit which is what I was expecting in a short barrel. The problem is the filler protects the patch base, preventing it from blowing off at the muzzle.

Using poly-fibre and H4350/AR2209 the powder granules would embed in the boolit base resulting in a damaged base edge. Ball powder was better with poly-fibre but I only have W748 which is about as fast as Varget - too fast for me but OK for lighter loads

[303Guy]

So, I went to find some Semolina but no luck at my local supermarket but I did find something thing else I'm going to try - wheat germ! It's oily and seams to flow when squeezed so might just flow through the case neck better. Haven't tried it yet.

[leadman]

303Guy, Will the oil come out of the heat germ if the cartridges get warm? Have to think of that stuff here in Az., especially when the temps go over 100'.
I've shot at the range when it was 115'+. Had factory ammo, mostly Remington blow primers.
Many keep their ammo in a cooler when it is that hot.

I'll try to remember to take a picture of Cream of Wheat for you.

[303Guy]

Thanks, leadman. From what I remember wheat germ oil is locked up but the thought did cross my mind before buying it (and it's not all that cheap). That's one of the aspects I want to check out. If it's not suitable I'll eat it! It's supposed to be healthy. :mrgreen: Of course down here really under it doesn't get hot like you experience. I'd have to do oven tests.

[garym1a2]

Interesting, I guess I need to start saving my dryer lint.

[Ready on the Right]

Anyone think grits may be slightly abrasive to the bore? I've used grits in revolver loads under a glued-in cardboard wad for shooting wood boring bees on the wing around the barn eaves, but have had some reservation about the abrasive effect. They are "loads of fun" and very effective up to 10 feet or so.

[9.3X62AL]

After ringing a chamber in a nice rifle using dacron, you won't see me using ANY fillers other than powder under my boolits. All cases were well-filled with lofted-up dacron. Caveat emptor, y'all.

[felix]

Al, only fillers with attitude count, eh? ... felix

[303Guy]

After ringing a chamber in a nice rifle using dacron, OK, now I've got alarm bells going off! I've wondered whether it's the powder column hitting the base of the boolit that might be causing the ringing. I've had light loads of shotgun powder with filler jamming cases in the chamber by swelling the neck into rust pits. The primer showed very low pressure! Full power loads don't jam the cases.

[dragonrider]

I have always been leery of using fillers in bottle neck cases, hence I have only ever used them in my 45/70.

[FirstBrit]

So, I went to find some Semolina but no luck at my local supermarket but I did find something thing else I'm going to try - wheat germ! It's oily and seams to flow when squeezed so might just flow through the case neck better. Haven't tried it yet.

Try this link for semolina: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semolina

My standard CB loads for my 308W /303brit/ 8x57 IS are between 27-30 gr. VV N-140 with a synthetic buffer material from Dupont. This product I buy from local company is a fine white powder based on polyethylene with no co-polymers and its main use is for plastic coatings of metallic surafces for weather/corrosion protection like outdoor display stands. Enough filler is used so that in bullet seating process the light fluffy buffer is compressed by about 1/8". I find this gives better consistency in pressure and velocity. Bullets are of normal weight for the caliber ( 308W/303 Brit 168-174 gr. and 190 gr. for 8 x 57IS) Bullets are cast from pure linotype, no quenching, no gas checks and lubed with mod. Felix Lube. Pressures as measured in pressure barrels at a ballistic lab come in about 25-30 k. psi with std. dev. of about 900 psi. Velocity from 26" barrel are in range of 1850-1950 fps with std. dev. usually about 30 fps. With my bullets and loads higher velocities usually tresult in worse accuracy. I prefer the single base powders like N-140 and shy off ball powders because of the nasty reports/warnings with reduced loads many years back.

Best regards,

Adrian - Germany.

P.S. regarding chamber ringing all the reports I have seen or read involved fillers/materials which were used for powder positioniong and didn't completely fill all the empty space between powder and bullet base. I am fairly confident that natural fibres like cotton wool or kapok used in this manner are okay, but I would be wary of synthetic materials. I myself used cotton wool in earlier years and did in fact ring the chamber of my Steyr SSG 69 - an expensive mistake - when I inadvertently used a synthetic cotton wool material ( polyester?).

[FirstBrit]

Would it be better to dry Cream of Wheat or Grits before loading? Or is the natural water content of these so low it wouldn't effect the loads if they sat for awhile before firing? Since I grow my own corn and grind my own grits I have potentially a huge supply of Grits to use as a filler?

I bought some local German product ( Hartweizen Gries) which comes fairly close to cream of wheat. I took some straight out of a fresh packet, weighed it and placed it in the warm oven at 200°F for an hour. Straight out of the packet it contained 12-14% moisture! After reading some comments in the CBA journal I made up some loads in 308 W. with slightly compressed loads and left them to age for 6 mths. After removing the bullets I had to poke out the COW with a small screwdriver that stuff had become so hard in just 6 mths. I wouldn't be personally worried about this compacting in tapered/cylindricall cases like 45-70, but have some concerns with bottle neck cases like 308W. or 303 Brit.
I haven't tested but I'm fairly sure that the moisture could affect powder burnor primers ignition over time especially if storage temperatures regularly fluctuate below the dew point.

Best regards,
Adrian - Germany.

[swheeler]

After ringing a chamber in a nice rifle using dacron, you won't see me using ANY fillers other than powder under my boolits. All cases were well-filled with lofted-up dacron. Caveat emptor, y'all.

Al; do you care to share what gun, cartridge and load?

[jonk]

jonk:

What sort of charges were you using?

From your post I understand you were using same charge with different fillers. Any signs of pressure using the "sold" fillers versus "fluff"?

Longbow

Depends on the cartridge, but in .30 cal for instance, running around 30 gr of 4895. No signs of pressure with any of them.

[303Guy]

Thanks, FirstBrit. So why does it compact over time? Perhaps it's safer to use Grits. I'd be interested in that synthetic buffer.

[bcp477]

I've been using cotton or dacron wool filler in my paper-patch 8 x 57 loads for 6 or 7 years now. No problems whatsoever, including chamber ringing. I can't quite understand why others have had such a problem. More information from those who claim chamber ringing with fibre fillers would be helpful in determining the exact cause for this.

I've heard this claim, off and on for years....but no one has ever offered any real proof.

Failing enough information to prove the likelihood of this happening with my loads, I'll continue as before.

[PAT303]

Chamber ringing happens when there is an air gap between the filler and boolit,the filler becomes the boolit and the boolit becomes an obstruction.I have been using wheat germ in my 303's for years and fired thousands of loads using it and have never had a problem.I fill the case to the top with WG after loading the powder and compress seating the boolit,works everytime.Like 303guy posted AR2209(H4350) works very well in the 303 and so does AR2217(H1000). Pat

[bcp477]

I am well aware of the dynamics of fillers.....and of chamber ringing. I am not talking generalities here.....I am talking about conclusive proof (or at least, strong evidence) as to why fibre fillers might tend to cause chamber ringing. Until I see it, I'll put the phenomenon down to mistakes made by the loader/ shooter. With that, this issue is akin to any other screw-up on the part of the one doing the hand loading - not the fault of the filler - but the fault of the one doing the loading.

So, blaming the filler is, essentially, an excuse.

Now, if someone can come up with conclusive evidence.....that's a different story.

[Larry Gibson]

After ringing a chamber in a nice rifle using dacron, you won't see me using ANY fillers other than powder under my boolits. All cases were well-filled with lofted-up dacron. Caveat emptor, y'all.

Mind giving us the full details on the load?

Cartridge;
Powder;
Powder charge;
Primer;
Cast bullet mould;
Bullet weight (fully dressed);
Alloy;
GC used;
Single loaded or from loaded magazine;
Location of "ring";
Define "well filled" as in compressed?;


Thanks for the info

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

If the 'filler" leaves and air gap between the bullet and the powder it is not a "filler" but a wad. A "filler" is just that; it fills the air space between the powder and the bullet completely. I have preached this religously. PLEASE, LET US NOT CALL WADS "FILLERS".

Yes I'm shouting, just rying to get a point across. I and many others have been using dacron fillers for many years in many cartridges of countless numbers with no problems what so ever. Mostly just better improved internal ballistics and improved accuracy. Using a dacron filler in reloading cast bullets is no different than using any powder in reloading. Use either correctly and they are entirely safe. Use either incorrectly and damage to the firearm can result.

Larry Gibson

[swheeler]

The only ringing I get when using a dacron FILLER, is in my ears, :)

[Hamish]

If *only* to experience it, everyone should try drier lint just once. The first shot jacks with your mind, after that, it's the "Blue Poofie", the filler equivalent of The Red Mist in prairie dog hunting.

It's hard not to giggle when theres a multi colored fluff cloud wafting away, like a psychedelic black powder Jimi Hendrix experience.

BTW, I kinda do the E.F. Hutton thing when L.G. posts, when you start getting too comfortable with something dangerous,,,,,, (I give my post one and a half thumbs up, cause I know of what I speak, cause I only have one and a half thumbs.)

[303Guy]

Anyone think grits may be slightly abrasive to the bore?I shouldn't think so. There's nothing in it hard enough to abrade steel, like sand or something.



Chamber ringing happens when there is an air gap between the filler and boolit,the filler becomes the boolit and the boolit becomes an obstruction.A few words explains it so clearly! But it means that the powder front can become the projectile with poly-filler under the right conditions (like powder type). That makes it important to know the powder type and conditions that caused the ringing. As Larry says - used correctly.

[303Guy]

I've now tried wheat germ as a filler and so far I like it better than wheat bran. It's a lot more compact-able but springs back more readily too. It leaves the bore squeaky clean. Looks promising so far. Time will tell.