Safe to shoot this mosin?

[blastinator]

So I have this m91/30 ex-pem sniper. Thought I got a great deal on it until I took a closer look at the bore. What I had thought was just some kind of debris I could wipe away is actually these massive pits? Tool marks? Pitted tool marks? Which have a bunch of copper fouling on the muzzle end edges. Two tool marks about 4-5 inches into the barrel. What do y'all think are my options here? Do I bother cleaning the fouling out and shooting it, and just monitor the amount of buildup? Or is this barrel a gonner? I have never encountered something like this before.
252780
252781

[georgerkahn]

My experience suggests a constricted bore -- ANY obstruction, even a layer of, say, oil on barrel is quite the dangerous to shoot paradigm. However, an eroded bore brings forth other questions. To wit, the number one question is (and should be) safety. I once bought a 1903 Springfield which had a bore much worse looking than yours. It resembled having, say, chicken pox throughout it, between the occasional lead, and copper streaks. I took it to an aged gunsmith who examined it, my thinking a replacement barrel would be necessitated, but instead he clamped it vertically in a vise and spent about fifteen minutes cleaning it. Bion, its resemblance was not too different than yours. He then took a jacketed bullet, and tapped it through the barrel, starting at the muzzle, using short lengths of wood dowel behind it. In most places it was quite snug, but the bullet moved in concert with his taps. However, from about five, to two inches or so from breech the bullet dropped. Mr. Sheen suggested perhaps the rifle had been fired with a bullet still in barrel?
Anyway -- to make a story shorter -- he then grabbed three of his handloads, and proceeded to shoot it at a target 50 yards distant. All three hit the target, albeit they formed a triangle about 12" to 14" from each other. Note he was shooting for function; not target.
I had this rifle as a safe queen for a few years -- afraid to shoot it -- and then -- running out of room for another rifle in the safe -- said, "why not?" and took it to range. I loaded Sierra jacketed bullets -- my Garand load -- and, putting the rifle in a Brownlee TSC rest, shot 24 rounds in less than a 5 3/4" group!
(I wish, in ways, I still owned this rifle :( -- kids, money needs, etc. mandated I sell it.)
Perhaps you might try tapping a (lead) bullet through it, to ascertain safe passage for it? Then, perhaps, with light loads it may in fact be a shooter. I do have one IMPORTANT added note, this re your photographs. To wit, it appears the right side of barrel is thinner than the left, and I've assumed this to be result of lighting/reflection in picture. If, on the other hand, it is eroded to being wafer thin... then I'd surely have it checked out first by a competent gunsmith (why I took my 1903 to Mr. Sheen) first.
Good luck!
geo

[Der Gebirgsjager]

!. Slug it. 2. Try it.

[Jack Stanley]

I bought a modern 30-06 that looked very similar . I cleaned it a couple times with Kroil and some JB bore paste and I'd leave bore cleaner or Kroil in the bore overnight . It looked better but not great so I went out with GI ball ammo and shot several rounds then cleaned the bore while warm . Again leaving bore cleaner in the barrel overnight .

Every time I took it out shooting then cleaned it the same way . After about a hundred rounds the crud was gone but it still had pits but not nearly as many as what it originally looked like . The rifle even with it's pits is still quite accurate .

You could also start with an electric bore cleaner and get the rust and fouling out to see what's left . The rifle may just surprise you , I know my 30-06 did .

Jack

[Eddie2002]

I would clean it, brush it and clean again. I've a '42 mosin refurb that looked like a sewer pipe when I got it. The rifle couldn't hit paper at 50 yds. After a lot of cleaning and copper removal it's getting about a 4 inch group at 50yds, not great but a whole lot better than before. Probably could get it to shoot a lot better but started another project and parked it for now.

[Outpost75]

+1 for the JB and Kroil treatment.

Follow that with Sweet's or Shooter's Choice Copper Remover and then repeat the JB and Kroil.

After that if you can push a wet patch through the bore smoothly without tearing it or getting it stuck it is safe to shoot.

My best results in "dark but strong" M91/30 barrels has been the .312" diameter Hornady Spire Point bullets with either 40 grains of IMR3031, 44 grains of IMR or H4895, or 46 grains of RL15 or Varget.

Each time you go to the range clean as Jack Stanley describes, store the rifle with the bore wet with Kroil, muzzle down, and wipe out the residue before firing again, also drying the chamber.

[WRideout]

My 91-30 was an arsnal refurb with all the accoutrements (which I don't care about). I thought the bore was pretty good, but realized after a year or so of intermittent shooting that the bore was really fouled with black goop. After cleaning for a while with a 30 cal brush, the diameter opened enough that I bought a 32 cal brush, which I am still using. I beagled a Lee mold to bring it up to .313 diam, and had acceptable accuracy with that ( I didn't keep good notes on the range session.) The bore is still not as clean as it should be, but I am still working on it.

Wayne

[blastinator]

Thank you folks for your helpful comments. Outpost75, that's a good tip about tearing the wet patch. I will keep cleaning vigorously and give that a try.

The more I look at this the more it seems like someone may have fired a round in this thing with a bullet stuck in the barrel. I don't see any bulges though, just a cut-up bore in those couple of spots. Is there anything else I should be aware of with this rifle? For what it's worth it seems it must have been fired a fair amount after the initial damage occurred, because of all that copper buildup.

[swheeler]

Something this simple will do wonders for your bore..........https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-DMCEutvhDQ.
After a couple electrolysis treatments a good scrubbing with a phosphor bronze brush and some solvent of your choice, scrub and shoot again and again.

[Texas by God]

Lead lap it till it doesn't feel crunchy then clean it and see how it shoots. That's ugly in there.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[arlon]

I'd try cleaning with a few stainless steel brushes. Wear a few of them out on that bore. Might be surprised.

[303Guy]

Fire-lap it a few times. Try scotch bright scourers to 'soften' the leading edges of the pits. Paper patch and shoot.

I have a Lee Enfield with a worse bore and it kinda a shoots paper patch Ok. Light patched boolits at subsonic shoot very well.

[Petrol & Powder]

Ammonia based solvents will help to remove copper fouling.
Kroil will help to loosen everything else.

I would avoid stainless brushes.

You follow Outpost75 and Jack Stanley's advice you will likely get good results.

The Mosin-Nagant can take a lot of abuse. They aren't pretty rifles (inside or out) but they are strong rifles.

[swheeler]

I bought a modern 30-06 that looked very similar . I cleaned it a couple times with Kroil and some JB bore paste and I'd leave bore cleaner or Kroil in the bore overnight . It looked better but not great so I went out with GI ball ammo and shot several rounds then cleaned the bore while warm . Again leaving bore cleaner in the barrel overnight .

Every time I took it out shooting then cleaned it the same way . After about a hundred rounds the crud was gone but it still had pits but not nearly as many as what it originally looked like . The rifle even with it's pits is still quite accurate .

You could also start with an electric bore cleaner and get the rust and fouling out to see what's left . The rifle may just surprise you , I know my 30-06 did .

Jack

Some very good advice given here

[john.k]

nice pics of a nasty barrel.....looks like common old chlorate pitting to me......but pitting in the grooves can sometimes leave smooth (ish) lands ,which the bullet rides on....main issue with any barrel is the last couple of inches hold the bullet firmly...this is why cord wear is so damaging to accuracy,an why Rusky guns are commonly counterbored, sometimes inches deep............so called fire lapping will smooth the appearance somewhat,and certainly shine,but a worn throat can cost several hundred fps MV.

[303Guy]

One of my most accurate rifles has a rust pitted bore. Hopeless with cast though (mind you, I never pursued cast in it - don't need to, it's accurate with j-words).

https://i.postimg.cc/Y05h9fdJ/TWO-GROOVE-BORE-003.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

This is what the bore does to cast.

https://i.postimg.cc/gJzm9Lsv/Two-Groove_PP_30gr_AR2209_5.7gr_Bran.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

Doesn't mean it won't shoot straight though. You've got more lands to grip the boolit so the cutting or 'skid' should be less.

That bore is after fire-lapping (two or three rounds to clear out the rust and round off the rust pit edges. This barrel has never had any copper fouling since doing this but then I lube the bullets. When I say accurate, I mean really accurate.

What a fired bullet looks like. Well, the jacket part anyway. There is no core in that. The lube sits in the base of the bullet before seating. Leaves a lube coating in the bore for the next shot.

https://i.postimg.cc/nzw5Lh36/MVC-201F_(2).jpg (https://postimages.org/)

[303Guy]

Now for a really bad bore.

https://i.postimg.cc/hP6XzZh4/Rusted_303_bore_006.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

It will only shoot paper patch but then, there was a layer of scale in the bore which fire-lapping removed, leaving a sewer pipe. I did need to chop the barrel down some (and straighten it which isn't easy when there is zero shine in it - length is now 14.6 inches).

https://i.postimg.cc/Qxv1z4F1/MVC-544F.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

Cast boolit fired in it.

https://i.postimg.cc/cLHwZvyX/256gr_I_mold_AUTOSOL_001.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

The bore (bad photo)

https://i.postimg.cc/DyndMHFJ/Pig_Gun_Bore_006.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

So - nothing wrong with your rifle. ;-)

P.S. I get 2000 fps with a 194 gr paper patched boolit out of that gun! The boolit shown is a 256 gr.

[andrew375]

My mosin is worse than that! Last time I shot it with jacketed bullets was at 900 yards, the score was 42.3 x 50. Just give that bore a good clean with alternating copper and nitro solvents until you get down to steel and then shoot it.

DO NOT USE SURPLUS AMMO!! It's surplus for a reason. With 7.62x54 that is ammo produced not only with the quality control of a socialist dictatorship but even the Taliban have rejected. Then people wonder why their mosin or ak aren't very accurate! Buy new, boxer primed ppu or s&b, or load it yourself. You know it makes sense.

[daengmei]

I bought an M91 for $70 that was marked "not safe to fire" at the local pawn. After cleaning the pits were like craters on the moon and some were a little deep, can't say how much but the worst I had ever seen. Fired it with my fingers (almost) crossed and the gal shoots very well with surplus ammo. The copper jackets fill the pits, (along with corrosive residue I'm sure) and I could pawn it off on someone without them knowing if they didn't clean it well for inspection. It shoots as well as any other I have, excluding M39's and some new bore carbines. I thought I read that the pitting continues under the copper but I have not cleaned it completely out since to see. Maybe you can notice very deep pits on the outside, I don't know. Tie a string, weight it down and do it or you will never know.

I would never sell something without full disclosure of what I know. I say that so some of you don't scold me.[smilie=s:

[flintlocke]

There is a vague possibility that somewhere in the past your rifle was shot using the old cupro-nickel bullets. To the eye it has a silver metallic color that looks like displaced barrel steel. I am not aware of any modern bore cleaner that works very well if at all, on that particular fouling. One of the electro cleaners might be the ticket. Hatchers Notebook has the Springfield formula for cupro-nickel...evil brew.

[Texas by God]

I sporterized a Czech 98/22 once that had a bad looking bore. I cleaned it then shot average 3” groups @ 100 yards with jacketed handloads. I spent a week lead slug lapping and cleaning with ammonia products. Then it averaged 3” groups @100yds. After 100 rounds or so it averaged 2-1/2” so maybe the pits were getting filled in? Let us know how it does.
303 guy- I bet that bobbed off Lee will blow the tin roof off the shooting shed with regular strength .303!

[LAGS]

I had a Mosin that the barrel was pitted real bad near the Muzzle.
I had to cut the barrel back to 17.5" to get rid of the pitted part of the barrel.
It ended up shooting great.
The only bad point was it kicked like a mule.
And guys shooting 300 Win Mags moved three benches away from me at the range because they couldn't stand the muzzle blast from my rifle with factory ammo.
Cast loads shot great , and with faster powder like unique and Red Dot the rifle was a great shooter and manageable recoil.

[303Guy]

303 guy- I bet that bobbed off Lee will blow the tin roof off the shooting shed with regular strength .303!
It would except it now has a full overbarrel suppressor. :Fire: It wasn't bad with H4227 loads with filler.

[Jack Stanley]

There is a vague possibility that somewhere in the past your rifle was shot using the old cupro-nickel bullets. To the eye it has a silver metallic color that looks like displaced barrel steel. I am not aware of any modern bore cleaner that works very well if at all, on that particular fouling. One of the electro cleaners might be the ticket. Hatchers Notebook has the Springfield formula for cupro-nickel...evil brew.

If cupro-nickel is the case then the electric is the ticket . A 1903 I bought was so bad it looked like the bore was chrome plated . Several cycles with a home made electric cleaner got all of it out . It then shot better even with the pits that had been completely covered by the fouling .

Jack

[303Guy]

The one thing that might be a concern is the degree of corrosion toward the muzzle. My rusted bores improve toward the muzzle or as the case with my two-groove, is evenly rusted. One of them was rusted more at the muzzle. One day when I get a round tooit, I'll test it to see if it shoots straight. If it doesn't, I'll chop the barrel back. I like short barrels anyway. The bore is not badly damaged.

To me, the only reason to get all the rust out the pits is so it won't rust further.

[john.k]

I used to work for a machinery dealer,selling used dozers etc.....anyway ,they were always looking for some magic additive that would put the metal back on pitted and scored final drive gears.....a whole family of ripoff merchants. People still bought stuff off them to save a couple of bucks on price,and paid thousands when gears and bearings failed .