tire question

[Battis]

We bought a 2018 Buick Regal TourX two months ago. It had 16,000 miles on it. Nice car, kinda like a station wagon. All wheel drive. Anyways, after a recent snow storm, the car started shaking at 50+ MPH. Probably snow and ice in the wheels. So I went to the carwash twice and did a good cleaning job. Still shook. The dealer let us keep the car in their heated garage overnight to melt the ice. Next day, it still shook over 45 MPH. The dealer kept the car and told my wife yesterday that they were replacing two tires that were "out of spec and couldn't be balanced." OK, great. But, what would make two tires go "out of spec" and need to be replaced? The tires were covered this time but they won't be the next time it happens (if it does).
I have the feeling the dealer isn't telling us the whole story.
Alignment problems, suspension problems? Any ideas?

It's a Certified Pre-owned with a lot of the factory warranty left on it.

[1911sw45]

Unless you hit some bad pot holes tires don’t go out of spec so to speak that quick. I been in the tire business for over 20 yrs. Then on top of it having two tires.

[lightman]

I'm thinking its a possible tread separation.

[Wayne Smith]

I'm thinking its a possible tread separation.

...and the dealer didn't want to tell you he used retreads.

[Battis]

It's good that the dealer is replacing the tires but they were fine (or seemed to be) and then after the storm they started shaking. The said the other two tires are fine. There's no history of the car being in an accident. I'll pick their brains more when I get the car.

[DocSavage]

Had the same problem with a minivan,55-60 mph shook like a belly dancer on speed scared the living daylights out of me and my wife new tires solved the problem. For backup info though not the same company look up "Jeep death wobble"

[Battis]

I just talked to the service department and the girl told me that the tires came that way - they had a defect in them. I'm still scratching my head. Two defective tires but the car is Certified Preowned and all that. At least they're taking care of it, for now anyways.

[Ianagos]

You purchased a Buick did you really expect to have a daily driver?

[osteodoc08]

Possibly knocked the balance weights off and when they checked them, the tires didn’t meet spec for runout so they could replace them, get paid by warranty and make the customer happy? Thank goodness all my local guys have treated me well and fair with car repairs. Even under warranty except on a 2015 Nissan Armada that they couldn’t get the vehicle fixed, but I’m not going there. It wasn’t for lack of trying.

[Lloyd Smale]

I live in big snow country. In 2014 I bought my wife a new buick verono. What a pita! At least once a week the wheels would get packed with snow and shake so bad you about couldn't drive it. Then the wheel wells were so tight to the tires that they would pack full to the point you couldn't even steer lock to lock. Drove that car one winter and the following fall traded it in on a jeep jk and gave me wife the Silverado to drive to work (im retired) She said she feels so much safer in that truck when the roads are slippery or in a storm and just sitting up higher gives her much better vision. Problem lies in the aerodynamics needed today to get mpgs. Seems that tight wheel wells don't have drag and those very low profile tires have your wheels in the snow if theres only 2 inches of snow on the road. It isn't just your buick or mine. Buddy has a mechanics shop and said every day in the winter he has people coming in with cars with severe shake. He sends them to the car wash. He said anymore in the winter if someone calls to schedule a tire balancing he first asks them if they've cleaned the snow off there wheels.
We bought a 2018 Buick Regal TourX two months ago. It had 16,000 miles on it. Nice car, kinda like a station wagon. All wheel drive. Anyways, after a recent snow storm, the car started shaking at 50+ MPH. Probably snow and ice in the wheels. So I went to the carwash twice and did a good cleaning job. Still shook. The dealer let us keep the car in their heated garage overnight to melt the ice. Next day, it still shook over 45 MPH. The dealer kept the car and told my wife yesterday that they were replacing two tires that were "out of spec and couldn't be balanced." OK, great. But, what would make two tires go "out of spec" and need to be replaced? The tires were covered this time but they won't be the next time it happens (if it does).
I have the feeling the dealer isn't telling us the whole story.
Alignment problems, suspension problems? Any ideas?

It's a Certified Pre-owned with a lot of the factory warranty left on it.

[LUCKYDAWG13]

sometimes the steel belts break in the tiers will make your car shake had it happen

[NSB]

I worked for both GM and Ford as a quality engineer and quality manager in their manufacturing plants. Neither company has anything to do with tires other than putting them on the car. Contrary to popular belief, the DO NOT put sub-standard tires on new cars. For a lot of years now the auto companies have been putting quality tires on all the cars and trucks they produce. The tire companies are responsible for the tire warranty on new cars, not the dealer. If you bought this car used and it had the original tires on it, that's probably a lot of your problem. It could be that the original owner never rotated the tires or rotated them improperly. The dealer would check the tires when they received it for tread depth and obvious defects and that's about the extent of all they'd do with the tires. Being a used car they took care of the tires for you because the tire warranty isn't transferrable. Kudo's to the dealer for doing the right thing. I'd suspect you have some belt separation and/or you lost the balance weights somewhere along the line in the ice/snow storm. There is no reason in the world to equate the tire problem with being a vehicle problem as long as the tires are in alignment when installed new. If you have a tire wobble after putting new tires on and the tires are in alignment, you have a problem with a suspension part on the car. I'm sure your dealer checked this, but you can ask them to check it being under warranty. It won't take them long to check things out in that regard.

[Battis]

You purchased a Buick did you really expect to have a daily driver?

Well, yeah. I've had Buicks before...and Fords, Chevys, Jeeps, Lincolns. It's not like I had great luck with all my other cars and now suddenly I have a terrible Buick problem. Planned obsolescence is the key phrase for most items - washers, dryers, refrigerators, prostates (well, maybe not prostates). Things are purposely designed to last only so long. I'm just glad the dealer is making it right. I think it's possible that only one tire is bad, and they're replacing both. I'll have to clarify that when I get the car.

[shortlegs]

If new tires dont cure the shakes check for bent rims. Low tire pressure and a pothole can bend a rim.Wife did that with low profile tires. (Riding with her you get a stress test for free)

[NSB]

FWIW, with AWD or 4WD you can't replace just one tire. They all have to be the same diameter. You can get away with a thousand miles or so difference, but after that you'll run into some problems and can get a noticable "chatter" or "bump" which over time can ruin parts.

[lefty o]

^^^^ the above is correct. you want 4 new tires, as with mileage on the other two ( wear, change in diameter), you can and will damage the driveline.

[thegatman]

Check the air pressure. My car used to shake and it was different pressures in front tires.

[1911sw45]

Sorry didn’t catch that it was a all wheel drive. Tires has to be replaced at a whole set. Not just one or two at a time. It will mess up your transmission over time.

[metricmonkeywrench]

Not quite true, from the owner of an AWD there is an allowable tolerance side to side and front to rear for tire diameters. In most cases if forced into a over tolerance mismatch the unwritten practice is to put the "new" tires on different axles and allow the differentials to accommodate the mismatch, differentials just behave like the car is in a constant turn. That is also how AWD cars can get away with driving on a generally smaller spare without scrapping the driveline.

Common practice though is to replace the set to avoid all this.

[Battis]

The dealer insisted that we don't need four new tires, but we could buy two more if we wanted to. OK, with that in mind, let's say the dealer puts on two new tires and I go elsewhere to get the other two. As long as the sizes match, does the brand matter?

I just called a local tire dealer that I've known for a long time and he said that with alot of new AWD cars, you can get away with replacing only two. He said they often call the dealers to make sure. He said it will say right in the manual.

[metricmonkeywrench]

The key is keeping the overall tire diameter within the tolerance band. You can conceivably buy two altogether different types/brands of tires and still be ok.

If it all worked out correctly and the tires were maintained/rotated correctly in the normal 'Life" of a set they would all be replaced at one time.

Your in a bit of a different situation as only 2 were identified as faulty, for whatever reason, so depending on the wear on the existing tires you may be ok to run the set until the normal replacement.

For piece of mind though matching the "new" tires might not be a bad idea as you are not sure what caused the initial failure. I know the Significant Other would not be confident in the possibility of the other 2 failing.

[Battis]

I'm thinking that maybe only one was bad, and they replaced its partner. Da Mamma handled it but I'll check when I pick it up. The tire dealer explained what happens if you don't do all four tires on a car that requires it, and that the dealer probably wouldn't risk the damage on a car with plenty of factory warranty still on it.

[Handloader109]

Two would be fine. I would just drive it if tread and tires look ok. Probably not rotated enough.

[Misery-Whip]

Year ago or more we had a tire delaminating on the passenger front of our Toyota sedan. Our first clue was a heavy vibration in the steering wheel. I rotated the tires (from the front to the back one side a time with a test drive in between)and the vibration in the steering wheel went away. But a new vibration was in the rear. At least it wasnt a bearing or driveline.

At the tire shop I had to argue with a tech then a manager to get a replacement tire for a tire that was under warrenty. All I got was a used tire with similar tread depth. I now go across town to a competing shop that treats me better.

Here we dont get a lot of snow if we do its around only a few days at most. Ive never seen more than 8 inches of snow here (just above sea level). But we do have0 rain. Lots and lots of it. Days and weeks at a time.

[Plate plinker]

So.... what brand was the offending tire? Just curious.

[Ianagos]

Well, yeah. I've had Buicks before...and Fords, Chevys, Jeeps, Lincolns. It's not like I had great luck with all my other cars and now suddenly I have a terrible Buick problem. Planned obsolescence is the key phrase for most items - washers, dryers, refrigerators, prostates (well, maybe not prostates). Things are purposely designed to last only so long. I'm just glad the dealer is making it right. I think it's possible that only one tire is bad, and they're replacing both. I'll have to clarify that when I get the car.



Well it’s nice that they are helping you out but be careful because it is awd. The awd vehicles I have experience with are typically sensitive to different tire sizes between axles so if the other tires are worn replacing only 2 can cause you some issues in the future.

All cars can have problems if improperly maintained. Most will do ok if you maintain them but some are known for not being too good.

[NSB]

AWD is not really All Wheel Drive. There are many variations in the way they work. Some have centrifugal clutches that transfer power from front to back, most that do that are only really one wheel drive and it can be one front tire or one rear tire. Some will power a wheel in the front and a wheel in the back at the same time. Also, there are electrical sensors in some cars that will transfer power to which ever side or front/rear needs it. I worked in the automotive engineering field for a lot of years and I'm not familiar with any of the systems out there that spell out you can use mismatched tire sizes. I'd be interested in learning which company allows this and puts it in writing. The mini-spare can be used for very short periods of time. It's usually spelled out for less than fifty miles. The systems that use the centrifugal clutch may accommodate this for a longer period of time since they are always in the front or the rear mode and don't work together at any one time. They're the simplest AWD system out there....and the least effective.

[Traffer]

You purchased a Buick did you really expect to have a daily driver?

Harsh....but true.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

So.... what brand was the offending tire? Just curious.

I am curious as well.

For many years I have liked Cooper tires. I have Coopers on both my vehicles right now.
My SIL works as a tire/lube tech...he isn't your normal tire/lube tech, he does a lot of research in it.
Anyway, Cooper has changed something in the last 5 or 6 years, I can't remember if it was ownership or management or something? but they started cutting corners on there economy tire production. My SIL says he has noticed a great increase in customer returns in the low end Cooper tires...general defects and delamination.

For the OP, I suggest you investigate your specific tires more thoroughly, and maybe consider replacing all 4 tires with another brand or model/style.

[tomme boy]

Most tires today are out of round from day one. Tires made here are not as bad as the others, but they all will ALL show a up and down movement on the tire balancer.

Not only that but they are garbage for lasting. I rotate my tires every other oil change. They still do not last. My car is the worst. Now when I get new tires for it I reject any tire that is out of round by looking at them on the tire balancer. If there are any high or low spots they are taken off. Last time it took 9 tires to get 4 good ones. Still holding up good this time. I mount and balance my own tires at a friends shop.

[Battis]

Harsh....but true.

I get it - Buicks are the worse car ever made...bla bla bla. I shoulda left the car brand out and just asked a question about tires.

[Tripplebeards]

You can replace one or two tires instead of four and an all wheel drive is long as it’s the exact same make and model tire and the old existing tires are close to new and have not worn more than 3/32”. I’ve Managed tire and auto centers for over 25 years now and that has been every policy of every center I’ve worked in and managed. A bent rim, loose lug nuts, or a broken tire belt will wobble all the time and the vibration gets worse that faster you go. I would’ve thought build up of snow and ice inside your wheels if it just magically started during that snowstorm. You could’ve thrown wheel weights causing the vibration. When you feel a vibration at certain speeds is a balancing issue. If you feel it in the steering wheel at your front tires. If you feel it in your seat it’s the rears. If you feel it while applying your brakes on your brake pedal you have warped brake rotors and not a tire issue. Cupped tires can cause vibration issues as well and that’s normally it all speeds. Cop tires are caused from low air pressure and if you saw my tires you would know why cause I’m guilty as charged, loose front end parts and out of a alignment. I would borrow a tire tread depth gauge from someone or a part store to measure your new versus your existing tires to make sure there are 3/32 or less between them or your transmission and all wheel drive will eventually go out.I would borrow a tire tread depth gauge from someone or a parts store to measure your new versus your existing tires to make sure there are 3/32 or less between them or your transmission and all wheel drive will eventually go out, trust I’ve me seen this happen. The tire center I worked for at the time had to buy the customer transmission. I’ve also had a few stubborn vehicles that you think it’s a vibration issue from tires and it’s the transmission shifting at 45 to 50 miles an hour getting ready to go out. If you’re getting vibrations at certain speeds it’s a tire balancing issue. If you’re getting vibrations all the times it’s something mechanical like a bent rim or loose parts.

I would really like to see what your tires look like before they replaced them to see how they were wearing. Did they check and adjust your alignment if it was needed? If Not I would take it somewhere and have it checked. All wheel drives are really hard on tires if you don’t rotate them every oil change they’re going to have your regular wear and you’ll get vibrations again and 15,000 miles or less. If those tires haven’t been rotated since you’ve got it and put that many miles on it if that alignments out it probably chewed up those replacements
tires and causing them to cup already. I have a set a tires on my truck from 2013 and they probably have 6/32 left on them. I didn’t check my air pressures last year and I’ve got corrosion around my valve stem’s. All the tires are cupped now and whole and vibrate. It’s too bad those tires probably would’ve lasted me another year! I love my Bridgestone duel or revolvers 10 Plies on half tons they last forever. They changed their design in the last couple years and skimped down tire tread so I went a different route this time. I have a new set sitting in the garage and didn’t want to get them put on because it’s hunting season and now I am at home giving you advice because the roads are glare ice and still have in my old “bald” tires can’t get out to my property to go muzzleloader hunting.lol I think the following weekend my new tires are going on!

No tires are perfect that’s why they make tire balancers. Some are just manufactured better than others. Tires just magically don’t go out of round one day. Like Tommy boy said they’re all made out of round right from the factory. When you balance them it evens them out for a smooth ride. If you all of a sudden magically get a tire that starts vibrating at certain speeds, cupped, or wearing goofy normally its caused by thrown wheel weights, low air pressures, or you have a loose front end part in the vehicle came out of alignment. What causes broken belts? Old tires, bumping a curb or obstacle, or normally if it happens right off the bat it was poorly manufactured which I’ve maybe seen enough to count on one hand in all the years time I’ve worked in shops. Normally if it’s a manufactured issue when you’re installing the brand new tire on the rim and you air it up you can see the lump in the tire. I’ve also seen this were tax of broken beads when they’ve installed tires incorrectly and tore them. They normally put a big nice goose egg on the side of your tire just like if you bumped a curb.

[Todd N.]

. I'd be interested in learning which company allows this and puts it in writing.


REALLY??? Many auto manufacturers ALSO tell you to use FORD 10W-30 or Toyota brand antifreeze and NOTHING else. We are many millions of cars and many billions of car miles past listening to the dictates of car makers. Besides, I have a nagging doubt that you are an authority on EVERY AWD system in existence. Case in point is my daughter's Subaru. 630,000 miles on the odometer as of Thanksgiving, Pirelli tires on the front and BFG's on the back. Front and rear diffs have NEVER needed any repair, center diff works like it is brand new. She has had all service- and things like water pumps and CV joints- done at Subaru dealers. They have NEVER made any statement about mis-matched tires.

The issue you describe is only found in drive systems that use full locking differentials or spools. Even then, a full locker would would just lock and unlock annoyingly, and a spool would just scuff the tire until it disintegrated. But these devices are not used on passenger vehicles ( except for crazy fun jeepers and rock-crawler types). Passenger vehicles use "limited slip" differentials which allow "differentiation" of axle speed that can be found IF ONE HAS LOW TIRE PRESSURE, for instance. In your explanation, every time one had a tire that was maybe 8 psi low, the entire drivetrain would be torn apart.

[Tripplebeards]

REALLY??? Many auto manufacturers ALSO tell you to use FORD 10W-30 or Toyota brand antifreeze and NOTHING else. We are many millions of cars and many billions of car miles past listening to the dictates of car makers. Besides, I have a nagging doubt that you are an authority on EVERY AWD system in existence. Case in point is my daughter's Subaru. 630,000 miles on the odometer as of Thanksgiving, Pirelli tires on the front and BFG's on the back. Front and rear diffs have NEVER needed any repair, center diff works like it is brand new. She has had all service- and things like water pumps and CV joints- done at Subaru dealers. They have NEVER made any statement about mis-matched tires.

The issue you describe is only found in drive systems that use full locking differentials or spools. Even then, a full locker would would just lock and unlock annoyingly, and a spool would just scuff the tire until it disintegrated. But these devices are not used on passenger vehicles ( except for crazy fun jeepers and rock-crawler types). Passenger vehicles use "limited slip" differentials which allow "differentiation" of axle speed that can be found IF ONE HAS LOW TIRE PRESSURE, for instance. In your explanation, every time one had a tire that was maybe 8 psi low, the entire drivetrain would be torn apart.

Subaru’s last for ever. We had one in the shop about 15 years ago with 480,000 miles on it. It came in for an oil change. The customers were traveling across country. They had six people in that little station wagon and it was overloaded with them and luggage. They were very large people. They called us a Couple hours later and said their motor locked up and stalled And figured that they had an oil out or we didn’t put the oil in it. We paid to have it towed into the shop and I Figured I’d be eating the bill on an engine . I stopped sweating bullets when we pushed it into the shop and pop the hood to find out The oil registered perfectly to the full Mark on the dipstick. I guess it was just its day to die. The motor finally had enough and the timing chain snapped I guess from what the customer told us a few weeks later when they had it towed home to their dealership.The motor finally had enough and the timing chain snapped I guess from what the customer told us a few weeks later when they had it towed home to their dealership

[Todd N.]

My daughter is a sales rep. She drives 30-40,000 miles a year. I've never heard of a car that would consistently stand up to that use other than Saab. But Saabs are ugly.

[Tripplebeards]

My daughter is a sales rep. She drives 30-40,000 miles a year. I've never heard of a car that would consistently stand up to that use other than Saab. But Saabs are ugly.



There’s hardly anybody that works on them in our town... And when they break, and trust me they do the parts are ridiculously expensive for them. They also take special tooling so they have to go right to the dealership so you will pay a premium for any service that needs to be done on it. I’ve seen many other owners in town here have their vehicle towed a good hour to an hour and a half one way to a dealership for repair. None of our local parts house even keep parts in stock for them. I’ve seen a lot of locked up and feeling brake calipers on them over the years because customers are watching for pad life. Also radiators and electrical issues are pretty common issues with them. Constant highway driving with that many miles a year doesn’t put a lot of wear and tear on the car no matter what brand it is. There is an a lot of starting and stopping...short trips, that kills cars and suspensions with small town driving in bad roads and corners and turns and potholes. Smooth straight highway driving with not a lot of stopping is very easy on cars.

[clum553946]

I have a TourX too. The car is made in Germany by Opel. The oem Continentals are terrible! Replaced them with Pirelli Cinturato P7’s and the snow performance is really good as well as low road noise & great handling . Was able to get up the mountain without chains when everyone was pulled over putting them on! Love my Buick, it’s awd & gets 33 mpg on the road. My gal has the Lacrosse hybrid & she absolutely loves her car. Super comfortable & get 40 mpg. Both are 2018’s.

[NSB]

Lot's of experts on here. It's hard to sort out a good answer. Gets down to what your favorite car is and has nothing to do with the OP's question or comments.

[Todd N.]

Lot's of experts on here. It's hard to sort out a good answer. Gets down to what your favorite car is and has nothing to do with the OP's question or comments.

Oh, that's easy.

EVERYBODY knows that the Toyota 4Runner is the best car ever made. ROFL!!!



I know your statement was facetious (or is it sarcastic?) but at the same time, it's true- there ARE many experts on this board. You may be an "expert" on what GM or Ford were doing at the time you worked for them, but there are others here who are just as educated and knowledgeable as you. For instance, my degrees are in Mechanical Engineering but Physical Power Management and Distribution is my area of specialty. We also have ASE Certified mechanics here. Design Engineers, too.
Remember, this is a discussion. Ever join one before today? I'm sure you have. Discussions ramble down more than one vein of thought. Except when Mr. Rabinowitz would bang his fist on the table and protest that "WE ARE GETTING OFF THE SUBJECT, PEOPLE!"
I despise a control freak!
The OP asked,"Alignment problems, suspension problems? Any ideas?" so...I'll say the conversation is STILL relevant.

[Smoke4320]

I'm just glad Lucas never made tires ")

[tomme boy]

Another problem some tire places seem to not follow is the red and yellow dot placement on the tires. Since I started lining up the red dot with the valve stem the balance stays true WAY longer.

[Battis]

I just picked up the car. They said that the foam came apart inside the wheel. Still scratching my head at that one. Anyhoo, it drives really well.

[Finster101]

I just picked up the car. They said that the foam came apart inside the wheel. Still scratching my head at that one. Anyhoo, it drives really well.


Run flat tires. The cold may have affected them. Not a problem we encounter in Florida but tire balancing has come a long way from the old bubble balancers.

[Tripplebeards]

There’s no foam inside or on your wheels or tires. Who ever you talk to has no clue what they’re talking about. Must’ve been a A new hire service writer that needs some schooling.

We used to solid foam filled tires for forklifts so they never get a flat tire. Did wear couple hundred pounds more when done and where as hard as a rock. You ever pick up a 12 inch forklift tire after it’s been foam filled you better use both hands. It feels equivalent in weight to lead Per square inch. Cars don’t have foam filled tires or foam in their tires or wheels for that matter. Runflat tires just have a stiffer side wall and tread face. I’ve unfortunately installed hundreds of them and they’re a pain in the rear end to get it on the rim since they are so stiff.

Battis mentioned to me earlier today on a private message that he was told both the front tires were peeling apart on the inside. I’m guessing that that service writer meant that both inside treads were worn because the alignment is so far out of whack it’s eating the insides of the tires. I suggested to have his car’s alignment checked ASAP or his new tires are going to get all chewed up very quickly and he’s going to be in the same boat again.

[Finster101]

Uh, some run flats do indeed have a foam liner in them. I just replaced a tire and on a 2016 Regal that the lady had hit a curb. There were indeed chunks of foam in the tire. I work at a GM dealership and have been turning wrenches for over thirty years, you can believe me or not but I don't think you got taken.

[clum553946]

Are the tires the stock Continental’s? They are foam filled puncture resistant tires

[Tripplebeards]

You boys are right! I’ll be darned. I always sad I learned something new every day in the tire game. It’s referred to as a noise canceling system. It doesn’t have anything to do with sealing in the tires. Back in the late 80s and early 90s Uniroyal made a self sealing tire. It was like sticky gum on the inside. I have watched run flats manufactured right in the Bridgestone plant and i’ve also watched firestone AG tires being put together in the old Iowa plant...that’s a hoot! You should see the union workers that were in that plant, they’re some very big, scary looking dudes...And that’s something for me to say because at the time I could barrel stack 800 pound farm tires at head level. I’ve been out of industry for about two years now so I’m a little rusty on the updated modern technology.

What a goofy idea...

https://www.pirelli.com/tires/en-us/car-light-truck/pncs-technology


But I can still tell you IMO a light piece of foam that came loose isn’t going to cause your tires to come out of balance and shake at certain speeds. I watched a video with that Tesla that had some in to. You normally don’t feel a shake unless you’re a half ounce or more off and I highly doubt a piece of that foam weighs a half ounce.

[turtlezx]

prince of darkness

[Battis]

I swear someone out there has a voodoo doll of me and they keep sticking it with pins.
The dealer put two brand new tires on the front of the car. The treads on the rear tires were within the limits of not needing to be replaced - less than 3/32" compared to the new tires (if I remember correctly). The car drove well all week. Then my wife was driving up the highway tonight and bingo - shake rattle and roll again. She happened to be driving past the dealer so she pulled in. The service manager took it for a ride and said, "We will take care of this problem." They gave her a big new SUV to drive and off she went.
The tires are the foam lined Continentals. Should be interesting...

[jonp]

We bought a 2018 Buick Regal TourX two months ago. It had 16,000 miles on it. Nice car, kinda like a station wagon. All wheel drive. Anyways, after a recent snow storm, the car started shaking at 50+ MPH. Probably snow and ice in the wheels. So I went to the carwash twice and did a good cleaning job. Still shook. The dealer let us keep the car in their heated garage overnight to melt the ice. Next day, it still shook over 45 MPH. The dealer kept the car and told my wife yesterday that they were replacing two tires that were "out of spec and couldn't be balanced." OK, great. But, what would make two tires go "out of spec" and need to be replaced? The tires were covered this time but they won't be the next time it happens (if it does).
I have the feeling the dealer isn't telling us the whole story.
Alignment problems, suspension problems? Any ideas?

It's a Certified Pre-owned with a lot of the factory warranty left on it.

Broken belts or just sidewall or tread defects when building. I bought 4 tires and put them on my F150. Truck shook and the back hopped up and down. I had the tires rebalenced and lined. Still shook. Rotated the tires, no dice. Replaced rear axle shafts and bearings, drive shaft and bearing, struts, tie rods, ball joints and still shook. Scratched my head and got 4 brand new tires and the shaking stopped. At least I know how to do that other stuff now.

As for self sealing tires....gimmick for extra money in my opinion. I'd stay away from them and do. If your that worried about punctures you can buy stuff that is a liquid you put right into the tire that will seal a puncture if you get one. Pretty cool stuff and great for farm tires or construction. We don't run it in our semi's but I think we should considering that a super single flat runs about $1,000. Couple of thousand if you destroy the rim and need a road call.

http://www.tier1tires.com/shaffers-seal-liquid-tire-sealant.html

I just called a local tire dealer that I've known for a long time and he said that with alot of new AWD cars, you can get away with replacing only two.

As long as they are on the same axle.

[clum553946]

In lieu of a spare tire, you get a kit with the goo in it for the TourX lol.

[jonp]

It's good that the dealer is replacing the tires but they were fine (or seemed to be) and then after the storm they started shaking. The said the other two tires are fine. There's no history of the car being in an accident. I'll pick their brains more when I get the car.

Just because it wasn't reported doesn't mean there was not one. At least the dealer is making it right and not arguing with you over it.

[jonp]

My daughter is a sales rep. She drives 30-40,000 miles a year. I've never heard of a car that would consistently stand up to that use other than Saab. But Saabs are ugly.

Honda begs to differ.

Laugh if you want but I bought my wife a Fiat 500. She drove 25,000 a year commuting and all I did was change the oil and rotate the tires until she totaled it on a deer with 150k on the odometer. Bought her another one. 42MPG's and a hoot to drive with the standard but I wouldn't want to take it across country.

[jonp]

In lieu of a spare tire, you get a kit with the goo in it for the TourX lol.

LOL, Wife's Fiat is the first car I've ever seen with a bottle of Goo instead of a spare. I spent a few hours trying to pry up the rear trunk floor to see if one was there.

[Idaho45guy]

Oh, that's easy.

EVERYBODY knows that the Toyota 4Runner is the best car ever made. ROFL!!!





I chose one for my daily driver/weekend mountain exploring vehicle. After my GMC Yukon was wore out at only 100k miles and needing repairs every month, I'd had enough of American garbage.

252950

[Idaho45guy]

Contrary to popular belief, the DO NOT put sub-standard tires on new cars. For a lot of years now the auto companies have been putting quality tires on all the cars and trucks they produce.

I guess that depends on what you define "quality tires" as.

Are they name brand tires that aren't dangerous in summer? Yes. But every new vehicle I've purchased the past ten years came with tires that had consistently poor reviews by consumers and testers.

My new Ram 1500 came with Goodyear Wrangler SR-A tires. Great for driving down the highway in summer. Awful for anything else. My new 4Runner came with Dunlop Grandtrek AT20 tires. They looked decent and I thought they would do well for the winter. Nope. They are rated at #74 out of 78 tires tested in their category on TireRack.com.

My work vehicle is a 2015 Ford Escape and the factory tires were at the wear bars at 11k miles and were horrible on wet and snowy roads.

So, I disagree that new cars come with quality tires because I haven't seen it or heard of it.

[Petrol & Powder]

I'm thinking its a possible tread separation.

My guess as well.

Probably not re-treads, just a couple of bad tires.

[Petrol & Powder]

Had the same problem with a minivan,55-60 mph shook like a belly dancer on speed scared the living daylights out of me and my wife new tires solved the problem. For backup info though not the same company look up "Jeep death wobble"
Death wobble is something completely different. It's related to a solid axle moving side to side in relation to the steering gear.

[Lloyd Smale]

dads 2015 outback is on its 3rd transmission and it has 45k on it. First one went, they rebuilt it, 8k later it went again and they were going to rebuild it again till he raised enough hell that they replace it. It also had a wheel bearing go at 30k. I get a kick out of people that claim ANY brand is bullet proof. Cars made in America ( and yup buicks too) are every bit as well made and last as long as anything the japs make. May not have been that way 20 years ago but today if anything the domestic brands have more and better technology then the japs. Why? Because they have there buyer brain washed and they will gladly pay for 5 year old technology. Even 15 years ago show me a jap motor that was any better then the 3.8 buick and olds used. That motor would run forever and got as good of fuel mileage in a full sized buick then a corolla got with a 4 cyl stick.
Subaru’s last for ever. We had one in the shop about 15 years ago with 480,000 miles on it. It came in for an oil change. The customers were traveling across country. They had six people in that little station wagon and it was overloaded with them and luggage. They were very large people. They called us a Couple hours later and said their motor locked up and stalled And figured that they had an oil out or we didn’t put the oil in it. We paid to have it towed into the shop and I Figured I’d be eating the bill on an engine . I stopped sweating bullets when we pushed it into the shop and pop the hood to find out The oil registered perfectly to the full Mark on the dipstick. I guess it was just its day to die. The motor finally had enough and the timing chain snapped I guess from what the customer told us a few weeks later when they had it towed home to their dealership.The motor finally had enough and the timing chain snapped I guess from what the customer told us a few weeks later when they had it towed home to their dealership

[Petrol & Powder]

LLoyd, we can always count on you to deliver the buy American mantra.

[Rick Hodges]

My experience with a brand new '05 Subaru Forester was anything but pleasant...it developed a noise and grinding in the left rear that the dealer couldn't fix...replaced all sorts of parts, including power distribution differential...each time they had it they kept it for weeks waiting for parts from overseas. Was a decent vehicle when we had it. Still making noises after warrantee ran out....sold it.

It ran well on gravel roads and in snow...ride quality was subpar, wind noise awful and the mechanical grind from the back end was maddening. Great gas mileage but didn't have enough power to get out of its own way. NO THANK YOU.....my candidate for one of the most overrated make of cars of all time.

[Petrol & Powder]

Rick,

Subaru quality was outstanding from the late 1970's up to the early 2000's and then it started to slip.
The early model flat 4 engines had a cam in the block and rocker arms, they ran forever but had no power. I've seen several of those go 300K, including one used on a farm and on the highway. It just wouldn't die. That engine was like a VW flat 4 but it was water cooled and didn't need to be re-built every 75K miles.
The old manual transmission drivetrain was essentially a front wheel drive car with a rear axle that could be engaged. Sort of the reverse layout of a part time 4WD truck where the front axle can be engaged as needed.
The later Subaru drivetrains had a viscous coupler that drove the rear axle. (the old AMC Eagle used a similar system) It wasn't true 4WD but it was a pretty solid system. Subaru started getting really dependent on electronics later on and that may have been their downfall.

Around 89/90 they had dual overhead cams, fuel injection, electronic ignition and those were great engines. The weak link was the timing belt but if you replaced that before it broke, that engine would also run forever.
The quality started to slip in the mid 2000's. The electrical systems got overly complex. Engine problems started to appear (tooling wearing out at the factory??? IDK)

The last one I owned (well the last one I paid for, the ex-wife drove it and left with it - I miss the car a little) was 2001 Outback. That was one of the best all-around cars I've ever had.
2.5 L engine, good economy, easy to service, plenty of power. The car was rock solid reliable.


The Forester models ALL suffer from wind noise.

[Todd N.]

I chose one for my daily driver/weekend mountain exploring vehicle. After my GMC Yukon was wore out at only 100k miles and needing repairs every month, I'd had enough of American garbage.

252950

Yep, I agree! I have one in the garage right now: 1991 4runner SR5, 341,000 miles. Head gaskets replaced at 71,000 miles under the Toyota warranty recall, original water pump failed at 260,000 miles, gets a new timing belt every 50,000 miles, STILL has the original fuel pump, STILL has the original alternator, and will get its 3rd clutch next month. My wife and I have nice nearly new cars but this one holds special status in our garage.

[lefty o]

Rick,

Subaru quality was outstanding from the late 1970's up to the early 2000's and then it started to slip.
The early model flat 4 engines had a cam in the block and rocker arms, they ran forever but had no power. I've seen several of those go 300K, including one used on a farm and on the highway. It just wouldn't die. That engine was like a VW flat 4 but it was water cooled and didn't need to be re-built every 75K miles.
The old manual transmission drivetrain was essentially a front wheel drive car with a rear axle that could be engaged. Sort of the reverse layout of a part time 4WD truck where the front axle can be engaged as needed.
The later Subaru drivetrains had a viscous coupler that drove the rear axle. (the old AMC Eagle used a similar system) It wasn't true 4WD but it was a pretty solid system. Subaru started getting really dependent on electronics later on and that may have been their downfall.

Around 89/90 they had dual overhead cams, fuel injection, electronic ignition and those were great engines. The weak link was the timing belt but if you replaced that before it broke, that engine would also run forever.
The quality started to slip in the mid 2000's. The electrical systems got overly complex. Engine problems started to appear (tooling wearing out at the factory??? IDK)

The last one I owned (well the last one I paid for, the ex-wife drove it and left with it - I miss the car a little) was 2001 Outback. That was one of the best all-around cars I've ever had.
2.5 L engine, good economy, easy to service, plenty of power. The car was rock solid reliable.


The Forester models ALL suffer from wind noise.

there are definately some plusses and minusses with subaru's. this april i bought a 2019 WRX, and while there are a lot of little things subaru could have done better for very little added cost, there is a lot that is very good. i had a loaner for a few days early on, dont recall it was a outback or forrester, and that thing was junk as far as i was concerned. however with snow tires on it, the WRX is a beast in the snow.

[Petrol & Powder]

The engineering that goes into a Subaru is very good.
The water cooled flat 4 has a low center of gravity, is very short front-back (two cylinders worth) and is one of the most compact 4 cylinder engines around. It takes all of the positive attributes of the old air cooled VW engines and eliminates the drawbacks of air cooling (mostly the inconsistent cooling and the noise). The all wheel drive with the heavy power bias to the front axle makes for a very solid driving car in the snow.

The Forester was built on the Imperza platform and that was probably a little too much body on that short wheelbase. The smaller WRX is fun car and the bigger Outback is a fine utility wagon or all-around sedan (the sedan's are somewhat rare compared to the wagons).

I think Subaru (which is really Fuji Heavy Industries) got a little greedy in the mid 2000's and let quality slip in the name of higher production numbers. That's just a guess on my part.

I had a 91 Legacy wagon (pre-Outback model) and that thing was one of the best values around. It reminded me of the early 1970's Datsun 510/610/710 series. Everything you needed and nothing else. A daily driver that was good in the snow. Cheap to operate, Cheap to maintain and rock solid dependable.

[Tripplebeards]

Sorry to the op that this turned into a Subaru... and Ford versus Chevy post.lol

I can remember back in 86’ when I first got my license I bought a Subaru wagon with a stick front wheel drive used for 200 bucks for a winter vehicle so I could store my 67’ mustang. I think it was an 81’. That’s back before they have the rustproofing process figured out because the bodies would rot off of them after four years. My pops sold them Back in the day. I believe their dealership started carrying them around 79’ or 80’? I always wanted a Subaru brat but could never find one for a decent price. That little wagon I bondoed up the bottom of doors because it was already rotting apart. Boy that little wagon was fun! I learn how to drive a stick from that vehicle and burnt out a clutch and had a put a new one in at The dealerships shop night where my pops works by one of the mechanics for $60 and 2 cases of beer! It had a little star in the windshield and it turned into some monster spider cracks after I went airborne a few times with it with four guys in the vehicle off roading. I tried to kill it but ended up selling it for $875 after the beating and bondo job.

The bottom line is there are no perfect vehicles out there that do not break down. I’ve ran service departments for over 25 years and I’ve seen just about every make and model vehicle enter our shops, just some alot more than others. I blame it more on our Wisconsin weather where they salt and sand the roads causing everything rust, rot, and fall apart besides and all the potholes in our roads knocking the front end parts loose and out of whack.

[Battis]

Well, it did start as a tire question, not which car is the bestest or worstest in the worldest. From what I understand, the foam in the tires is not for punctures, but noise quieting. The car is great but I think it needs conventional tires. The dealer has been very helpful, and I'm confident they will straighten it out.

[jonp]

LLoyd, we can always count on you to deliver the buy American mantra.

Yeah but he is not wrong on the new Subaru's. The older ones would run forever and had the best AWD on the market but the newer ones not so much. The newer American vehicles have taken giant strides in quality but a reputation is hard to live down. Girlfriend in college years ago had a Legacy Wagon. It was a tank. She was a flatlander and got introduced to grading a dirt road in the spring the hard way and ended up in a ditch on the side. Got a couple of guys to push the car upright and drove it off. Great car.

For an AWD I'm a true believer in Honda and their quality.

[jonp]

I had a 91 Legacy wagon (pre-Outback model) and that thing was one of the best values around. It reminded me of the early 1970's Datsun 510/610/710 series. Everything you needed and nothing else. A daily driver that was good in the snow. Cheap to operate, Cheap to maintain and rock solid dependable.

Reminds me of my 1997 CRV. Not much extra but the heater works, the am/fm works and the AWD. A little loud, not the best driver by far but it won't die. I'm treating it as an experiment now to see how long it will last. I've replaced a bunch of parts like ball joints, engine mounts, tie rods etc. that didn't need changing with cheapo China Ebay parts just to see what happens. I just put a new fuel pump in it for kicks. Take out the drivers side rear seat with 3 bolts, pull the frame it sits on with 3 bolts and the unit is right there on top of the tank. 6 nuts and it pulls out. Takes 1/2hr if your fooling around in the yard. Open the hood of my 2004 F150 and it's a nightmare of wires, parts, plastic etc.

[skeettx]

Watching on the reports
Mike

[Petrol & Powder]

Since this thread has drifted completely off course, lets keep going. :-)

The problem with the argument, "American cars are better now.. IS.......I've been hearing that same argument for 40 years and it has yet to pan out.

I'll allow that American automotive manufacturing has improved greatly, the flip side to that is it had a Long way to go and they are still outclassed in a few areas when it comes to value.
They all look good when they're new. The real test is how it holds up over time.

America is better at some aspects than others. For decades our strength was large cars. We couldn't build a small car to save our soul. We got a little better at that but our competitors improved at a faster rate.

When it comes to trucks over 1/2 ton, I think America has the edge.

Every manufacturer cuts corners somewhere to hit a price point. It just depends on what class you're in. Quality cost money.
An early 1980's Volvo 240 was about as bland as it gets. Even a low end Chevy or Ford from the same era had better comfort features and far more performance. But the 240 was a decent car and very safe for its day. It all depends on what you want to pay for.

There are also differences of expectations. For some people a minor mechanical failure is seen as poor quality or bad engineering. Other people see minor failures as acceptable issues that all machines will suffer and only see the major failures as signs of poor quality.
I'll give you an example (and show a bit of age). Chrysler once had a resistor mounted on the firewall that was part of the ignition circuit. It was a simple ceramic block with a couple of wire terminals. If the resistor burned up, and they sometimes would, the engine would not run. If you knew what the problem was and had another resistor, it was a 10 second fix.
Some people saw that failure as, "the car will not start and therefore the car is junk" and other people saw that as, "that is an expendable part and no big deal".

[1911sw45]

I remember the dodges having that resistor on the firewall. Replaced many. Especially after water gotten on them.

[Petrol & Powder]

I remember the dodges having that resistor on the firewall. Replaced many. Especially after water gotten on them.
I always had a spare in the glove box.

If you didn't know what the problem was, you would cruse the Mopar and swear to never own one again.
If you did know the problem and had a spare resistor. You plugged it in and let hang by the wires until you got home and mounted the new one to the firewall.

[1911sw45]

Always had spares. Have helped a few that did not have any on hand. The resistors were not that much.

[Tripplebeards]

My worst car was a 1976 AMC hornet. It was my first car. I bought a Bicycle for 200 bucks and took it back and bought the car with it.lol Every time I went over railroad tracks or a bump in the road it would kill. The weird part is I couldn’t put it in neutral and restart it on a roll it had to be at a complete stop and put back in park to start. Blue with a white top.

...It didn’t have any tire problems though


Wait, I take that back! A 95’ eagle talon TSI FWD. I bought the car and the transmission cracked all the way around the bell housing within a month and a half, The turbo blew out on it, and when I went to sell it (with an extended warranty I bought to cover the turbo)the power moonroof fell out in the guys lap that bought it a week later and thought I did it. The good part is the $1200 extended warranty I bought covered 100% of it with a zero dollar deductible. ***!

[Traffer]

Rick,

Subaru quality was outstanding from the late 1970's up to the early 2000's and then it started to slip.
The early model flat 4 engines had a cam in the block and rocker arms, they ran forever but had no power. I've seen several of those go 300K, including one used on a farm and on the highway. It just wouldn't die. That engine was like a VW flat 4 but it was water cooled and didn't need to be re-built every 75K miles.
The old manual transmission drivetrain was essentially a front wheel drive car with a rear axle that could be engaged. Sort of the reverse layout of a part time 4WD truck where the front axle can be engaged as needed.
The later Subaru drivetrains had a viscous coupler that drove the rear axle. (the old AMC Eagle used a similar system) It wasn't true 4WD but it was a pretty solid system. Subaru started getting really dependent on electronics later on and that may have been their downfall.

Around 89/90 they had dual overhead cams, fuel injection, electronic ignition and those were great engines. The weak link was the timing belt but if you replaced that before it broke, that engine would also run forever.
The quality started to slip in the mid 2000's. The electrical systems got overly complex. Engine problems started to appear (tooling wearing out at the factory??? IDK)

The last one I owned (well the last one I paid for, the ex-wife drove it and left with it - I miss the car a little) was 2001 Outback. That was one of the best all-around cars I've ever had.
2.5 L engine, good economy, easy to service, plenty of power. The car was rock solid reliable.


The Forester models ALL suffer from wind noise.

Yup except for massive rust magnet...they were excellent cars in that era. Honda's were better. I got a Honda Civic LX in 1999. It has been my only car for over 20 years. 300k mi I have done all my own work on it. People still marvel. Once you are inside it still seems like a brand new car.

[Tripplebeards]

I have to say the Subarus are very rare to see for repairs in the local shops I’ve worked in. If they did come in it was for brakes and oil changes. I always wondered if they didn’t break or if most people were just loyal and took them to the local Subaru dealership for repairs.

[lefty o]

they all make turds. some make more than others, but they all make 'em.

[Idaho45guy]

Death wobble is something completely different. It's related to a solid axle moving side to side in relation to the steering gear.

It's a Jeep Thing, you wouldn't understand... LOL!

[Idaho45guy]

LLoyd, we can always count on you to deliver the buy American mantra.

Well, somebody has to buy the Hi-Points and the GMs...

Some people are just incapable of discerning quality. It's like they can pick up and shoot a $5,000 Les Baer and then pick up and shoot a RIA 1911 and declare they see no difference in the quality or feel of either firearm.

There is no arguing with those type of people; they simply will never get it.

A co-worker of mine bought a new F-150 with the 2.7 EcoBoost V6 in the Lariat trim. $50k pickup and every option. I had just bought my $36k Toyota. I rode in his pickup when we went out to lunch and was amazed at the squeaks and rattles already present in a babied Yuppie-mobile that had never been on gravel.

[Petrol & Powder]

Yup except for massive rust magnet...they were excellent cars in that era. Honda's were better. I got a Honda Civic LX in 1999. It has been my only car for over 20 years. 300k mi I have done all my own work on it. People still marvel. Once you are inside it still seems like a brand new car.

Yeah, unfortunately rust is the great equalizer.

[Petrol & Powder]

It's a Jeep Thing, you wouldn't understand... LOL!

:D It's not just a Jeep thing but that's still funny !

[Tripplebeards]

Remember a guy in the highway with the death wobble on his motorcycle. His front tire wobbled uncontrollably back-and-forth and he finally went down, rolled and bounced for good 100 yards. He laid there for a few seconds, sat up, and limped off the road. He had a buddy riding next to him that pulled over to help him off the road with a few cars following that stopped . I figured that guy was dead. Over inflated tires are causing death wobble as well. I’ve seen it many times. Try over inflating a front tire on a three wheeler and giving it the berries. You’ll end up on your back real quick.

[Traffer]

I had an old Buick back in the 70's that I drove from Wisconsin to Reno NV. It had a bad tie rod end which got a lot worse on the way. I would get the death wobble when trying to drive a steady rate of speed but if I accelerated it would go away. So I drove the last 1000 miles slowly speeding up to about 95 then hitting the brakes back down to about 40 and slowly increasing again. I made it to Reno and got my tie rod ends changed. (The things we do when we are young...)

[rickys2]

They must of used a Road Force balancer and pick up tread separation. It adds weight to the tire as it spins.

[Battis]

They can keep my Buick for as long as they want - they gave me a 2020 Buick Enclave as a loaner. Sticker price is about $60,000. The doctor said I was impotent - now I look impotent, and I drive an impotent looking automobile.

[Lloyd Smale]

yup you reminded me that dad had the head gaskets blow on that first one too. He told me at 87 he wont be buying another car but if he did he sure learned his lesson with suburus
Yep, I agree! I have one in the garage right now: 1991 4runner SR5, 341,000 miles. Head gaskets replaced at 71,000 miles under the Toyota warranty recall, original water pump failed at 260,000 miles, gets a new timing belt every 50,000 miles, STILL has the original fuel pump, STILL has the original alternator, and will get its 3rd clutch next month. My wife and I have nice nearly new cars but this one holds special status in our garage.

[Lloyd Smale]

blown head gasket and 6 timing belts. Clutch change today will set you back almost what rebuilding an auto transmission will if you bring it to a shop. Wonder what swapping a new timing belt would cost at the local auto repair shop. I sure wouldn't brag on a chev that I had to change timing chains on even once in a 100k. I can show you my old 2006 Silverado. My buddy bought it from me at 99k. It now has 270k on it. For half the time hes had it its had a plow on and if you've ever been up here you know that a plow is used about daily and he has a 1/4 mile road to keep open. Only thing I did other then normal wear items like brakes wipers ect was two front wheel bearings. At 220k after plowing for two year he rebuilt the front end. Still the same starter alternator, transmission, injectors, fuel pump water pump. matter of fact the motors never been opened up in any way. The drive train with the exception of u joints is just what left the dealers lot. Wana compare maintenance costs?? Its getting wore now because he told me it uses a quart of oil between oil changes at 4k!! Have to say though it is getting ugly and rusty but he will tell you hed hop in it tommarow and head cross country.
Yep, I agree! I have one in the garage right now: 1991 4runner SR5, 341,000 miles. Head gaskets replaced at 71,000 miles under the Toyota warranty recall, original water pump failed at 260,000 miles, gets a new timing belt every 50,000 miles, STILL has the original fuel pump, STILL has the original alternator, and will get its 3rd clutch next month. My wife and I have nice nearly new cars but this one holds special status in our garage.

[Lloyd Smale]

maybe because I was born in America and served America and will always try to buy American so that other Americans have a chance at having a life as good as I did. Don't much care about some jap or korean ceos life that's profits go into the jap or Korean economy. I know in todays world its pretty tough to buy ALL American but I do think its our duty to try even if it cost 3 cents more.
LLoyd, we can always count on you to deliver the buy American mantra.

[lefty o]

maybe because I was born in America and served America and will always try to buy American so that other Americans have a chance at having a life as good as I did. Don't much care about some jap or korean ceos life that's profits go into the jap or Korean economy. I know in todays world its pretty tough to buy ALL American but I do think its our duty to try even if it cost 3 cents more.

me too, but most american cars while they may be assembled here, 95% of it is made over sea's. go to a dealership and buy parts for a newer chevy, and see how many different soviet bloc countries those parts come from. its eye opening.

[Todd N.]

blown head gasket and 6 timing belts. Clutch change today will set you back almost what rebuilding an auto transmission will if you bring it to a shop. Wonder what swapping a new timing belt would cost at the local auto repair shop.

Since this thread has gone TOTALLY off the rails...

Yes Lloyd, you are totally correct as always. Capital Toyota of Salem, Oregon did my last clutch in 2009 to the tune of $685, but that also included a new slave cylinder. At work, we have a budget line item of just over $6100/ vehicle to overhaul or replace the transmissions in our F350 and F450 fleet vehicles. My rock crawler got an upgrade from a Turbo 400 to a 6L80. The factory-spec rebuild cost $2900 at an independent transmission shop.
And the timing belt is a standard maintenance item, not a broken item repair. But again, you're right- it's so expensive that I am FORCED to do it in my garage. $53 in parts and 3 hours in my driveway. This is no different than changing your serpentine belt. These are service items, just like spark plugs, air filters, oil filters, etc...
But before you mock Toyota owners too much for our timing belts, you might be surprised to know that Chevrolet uses them also, and has for decades. Currently, a timing belt can be found on several Chevrolet models. But then again, you're right to laugh at the Toyota timing belt that can be checked and easily replaced- the good old-fashioned timing chain of past generations is so superior. We ALL love a system that is designed as "Use to Failure" because preventative maintenance is so lame!

But I get over 20 mpg, do not lose any oil between changes (past the gaskets or the rings), and I don't have rust issues even in the Pacific Northwest. For the record, we salt our roads, too.

And I Buy American too. My wife's Toyota Camry was manufactured in Georgetown, Kentucky. Buying that car fed American babies.

[Traffer]

Yup this thread has definitely gone off the rails all right. It seems that lot's of folks want to talk about the problems/successes they have had with cars. Maybe someone will start a different thread for all the ranting and bragging. I for one would love that. I love to brag about my Honda Civic that I bought in 1999. I have driven no other car (except for maybe 50 mi or so) since then. I have done almost all of the maintenance myself. Including timing belt complete front end (strut's, ball joints, swing arms, tie rod ends etc.,) So I have invested into it perhaps another $2,000 over the purchase price. That means I have spent about $16,000 total on automobiles in the last 20.5 years. I have driven it about 300,000 miles and it runs and drives about like the day I bought it. Anyone care to compare?

[Lloyd Smale]

wave your American flag proudly (or is it a rising sun):groner: One thing ill give you is the high price of repairing jap cars and the parts do make mechanics and parts suppliers smile.

[Idaho45guy]

wave your American flag proudly (or is it a rising sun):groner: One thing ill give you is the high price of repairing jap cars and the parts do make mechanics and parts suppliers smile.

That hasn't been true since the 90's.

In fact, I did a quick Amazon search for parts for a 2006 Toyota Camry and a 2006 Ford Fusion. Every part I looked up for them, the Camry parts were cheaper.

253161

253162

253163

253164

[lefty o]

That hasn't been true since the 90's.

In fact, I did a quick Amazon search for parts for a 2006 Toyota Camry and a 2006 Ford Fusion. Every part I looked up for them, the Camry parts were cheaper.

253161

253162

253163

253164

absolutely correct.

[Idaho45guy]

I remember in 1990, I drove from NAS Lemoore in California to NAS Whidbey Island in Washington in my 1966 F100 with the 352 V8. The fuel pump went out in Eugene, OR. I limped to an auto parts store and spent $15 for the new pump and it took me 20 minutes to change it out, and I was back on the road.

Can't do that today with ANY vehicle. But that F100 was pretty wore out at 90k miles, got 12mpg, and it was a workout to drive it.

I was shopping for new trucks last summer and I could choose between a Ram built in Mexico, Chevy built in Mexico, or Toyota built in Texas.

Ford trucks are built in Michigan, but they have several models built in Mexico and the US.

Of course I went with the 4Runner, which was built in Japan. Show me any American made mid-size body on frame SUV with the reliability of the 4Runner for under $40k and I would have bought it. The closest in terms of capability was the Jeep Wranlger Unlimited, but the reliability of those is horrendous and they use a minivan-based motor.

[Lloyd Smale]

Buy what you want. This guy will buy American if it cost twice as much! Until the whole country doesn't start thinking as a country and starts buying American we will never be what we used to be. They get richer and our country gets poorer! We take there cars with tiny tarrifs and they charge huge tarrifs on our stuff. Then I find it funny that during the presidency of our fake republican texas president G bush jr Toyota started building trucks in texas! How many Ford factories has Japan let us build on there soil? Fords aren't even sold in Japan! Like I said buy what you want but don't try to convince anyone that knows better your supporting our country doing it.

[Battis]

How the **!% did this thread reach this point based on my tire question? Do I get a prize for the most hijacked thread?

[lefty o]

How the **!% did this thread reach this point based on my tire question? Do I get a prize for the most hijacked thread?

PFM, Pure F*&^&^* Magic. LOL

[Battis]

Good answer. Truthfully, I enjoyed the thread. Have at it, boys.

[Idaho45guy]

Buy what you want. This guy will buy American if it cost twice as much! Until the whole country doesn't start thinking as a country and starts buying American we will never be what we used to be. They get richer and our country gets poorer! We take there cars with tiny tarrifs and they charge huge tarrifs on our stuff. Then I find it funny that during the presidency of our fake republican texas president G bush jr Toyota started building trucks in texas! How many Ford factories has Japan let us build on there soil? Fords aren't even sold in Japan! Like I said buy what you want but don't try to convince anyone that knows better your supporting our country doing it.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/bertelschmitt/2016/01/26/ford-surrenders-to-japan/

Shortly after the non-announcement, Ford spokesman Neal McCarthy told the Associated Press that “Japan is the most closed, developed auto economy in the world, with all imported brands accounting for less than 6% of Japan's annual new car market.” The first part of McCarthy’s line is lifted straight from the American Automotive Policy Council, the lobbying arm of Detroit’s automakers, and it lacks any proof. The second part seems to be purloined from the seminal oeuvre titled “How to lie with statistics.”

What Ford also does not want you to know is that the company has left Japan’s import market to its European competitors. More than 80% of the more than 300,000 foreign cars brought to Japan last year carried European marques; the American share was a minuscule 4%. Home to more than 10 domestic manufacturers, Japan is a highly competitive market, but sometimes one can't help but get the impression that Ford and its Detroit peers aren’t even trying to compete. Ford’s imported cars often have the steering wheel on the wrong side. Since 2008, Detroit’s automakers have boycotted Japanese auto shows. The boycott was only broken when Chrysler went to Fiat, and subsequently made an appearance at the Tokyo Motor Show. A little trying goes a long way: FCA’s Jeep brand is quite popular in Japan, selling more than Ford and GM combined.

Because they couldn't compete.

I spent three weeks in Japan last year visiting my grandkids and took hundreds of photos. I saw tons of BMWs, Jeeps, Range Rovers, etc.