The Round Ball Does It Again

[GBertolet]

Just took a nice 8 point buck with my trusty $179, 12 ga NEF Slug Hunter, using the .737 RB. The load consists of 40 gr of Blue Dot + BPGS seal + 1/2" hard cardboard + 1/2" soft fiber wad + .737 Lyman RB, teflon tape wrapped and roll crimped in a 3" Fiocchi hull. I am going to try powder coating next. I used to use the 2 3/4" hull, but the components fit better in the 3". I could probably go up to 45 gr of powder, but why? A RB weight of almost 600 grains, @ 1300 fps, will get any game's attention, and as a bonus, you get a nice pyrotechnic display in low light from the Blue Dot. There is no worry about slugs tumbling, skirts collapsing, petals shearing, or erratic accuracy. Shot after shot is right there with the RB. I zero 2" high at 50 yards, so I am good point blank, out to about 100 yards, with a center hold, although I never had to shoot that far yet. This is the 17th deer I have taken with this gun and load. I just can't see how anyone could ask for anything more effective. I have the Lee Key Drive mold, the Lyman forster mold, and the Rapine Flying Trashcan mold. They all are fun to play with, but the RB beats them all for consistency. Recoil is up there, but with heavy clothing on, and the excitement of the hunt, it is not even noticed.

[longbow]

Nice! And a man after my own heart... round ball lover!

I got my first best smoothbore accuracy using round balls, both 0.662" cloth patching into shotcup and 0.735" RB naked. I was a bit nervous when I was looking for load data for heavier than "normal" 1 oz. slugs. As I am sure you are aware, load data past 525 gr. (Lyman sabot slug) is sparse. I decided I'd go with heavy birdshot loads so looked some up and 1 3/8 oz. is a little heavier than the 0.735"RB cast from wheelweights so I figured that would be safe.

Then I found the Precision Rifle Piledriver load data for 610 gr. full bore SWC style slug so went with that. The round ball was a bit lighter and less bearing surface. Those loads were listed at starting load of 36 grs. and max. load of 44 grs. at 12,500 PSI. So your suggested 45 gr. load of BD under that ball should be safe but I'd say about max. and a bit much recoil for this old guy!

I started at 36 grs. and went up to 40 grs. That was all the fun I could stand with a light single shot! I dropped back to 38 grs. and called it good. It was a nice accurate load in both smoothbore and rifled gun.

I like big 'ol round balls! The only reason I am still playing with other slugs is to try to get decent dependable 100 yard accuracy which is a no go with round balls from smoothbore in my experience. 60 to 70 yards seems to be the maximum range for good groups without fliers. From rifled gun of course it is a different story! Yes, I should get a rifled gun!

Congratulations on the buck! Good hunting, good shooting and good choice of projectile!

Longbow

[725]

Well done! I'm a RB believer, too. They just work so well why go anywhere else. Makes my friends scratch their heads.


.

[white eagle]

I am going to try this

[Markopolo]

How about some pictures of the deer and the load sir?? i would love to see how you wrap your rb's....

Marko

[GBertolet]

Here is a picture of the deer, a picture of the load components, and a loaded round. To wrap the RB, I cut a piece of plumbers teflon tape, 6-7 inches long, and while stretching it slightly, completely wrap the ball. Also here is a photo of recovered RB's from the backstop. Notice, only the equator engages the rifling, as indicated by the flats on it.

As with any roll crimped round, if it is to be used in a tubular magazine, whether it be ball or slug, be sure the projectile is seated below flush, to eliminate the remote possibility of a chainfire. I guess you could grind the sprue off to mitigate this. My shotgun is a singleshot, so this is not an issue.

[Markopolo]

wonderful!!! nice pictures!!!!

so the NEF is a rifled barrel?

[GBertolet]

Yes the NEF is a rifled barrel. That's why it shoots so well.

[Markopolo]

wonder how all that tape would do in a smoothbore....

[Tripplebeards]

Very cool! I need to start looking for shotgun reloading supplies. I’d really like to load up some WQ COWW lead T shot for coyotes.

[centershot]

Well done! I'm a RB believer, too. They just work so well why go anywhere else. Makes my friends scratch their heads.


.

Yeah, mine too! Rifles are legal for big game here but my pursuit of RB perfection has them convinced I've lost my mind!


GBertolet- Very nice job! Quite interesting the way you wrapped that ball up in tape!

Markopolo - I should think that this would work splendidly in a smoothbore!

Triplbeards- "T" shot is 0.200" diameter, I'm not sure you'll find a mould for that one. Maybe #4 buckshot, which is 0.240" but I'm not sure about that one either. I'm not a "buckshot-guy", perhaps someone more knowledgable could chime in on this?

[Tripplebeards]

Or even triple B

[Hogtamer]

Outstanding all around!

[longbow]

I have to ask why the Teflon tape? Just to prevent leading?

I ask because there is pretty much no way the tape wraps smoothly and likely it comes off the ball unevenly or incompletely in the air. Maybe not an issue with rifled gun but from my experience with RB's in smoothbore I'd say that a tape wrapped ball would not be as accurate as a naked ball (or powder coated). I haven't tried it so speculation on my part but any defects in the ball seem to induce random spins and inconsistent accuracy when shot from smoothbore.

The tape is obviously not causing you any issues.

I didn't have any leading at all from the smoothbore but it has a pretty fat bore at 0.733" so not a lot of squeeze on a 0.735" RB. The bore on your rifled gun must be fairly tight as the "belt" around the equator is quite large in the pics. Even when shot from a rifled Remington 870 the "belt" on my 0.735" RB's is much smaller than on yours. No leading in the rifled barrel either but not a lot of shooting done as it was a borrowed gun. It did shoot well though.

My load is plastic gas seal cut off a trap wad, 2 x 1/2" hard card wads, naked 0.735" RB all over 36 to 40 grs. of Blue Dot but as I said 38 grs. was enough for me. Oddly, when I tried one hard card wad and one fiber wad accuracy was not good. I thought the fiber wad would form a nice "seat" for the RB but it didn't work well from my smoothbore. I got best accuracy from all hard card wads.

Now that I have a tighter bored Mossberg Slugster (also smoothbore) I have to repeat test some of the successful smoothbore loads from my single shot in it to see how they work. Different guns probably have different likes and dislikes.

I wish I had bought one of the USH guns when they were available! I kept thinking I didn't need one and could buy one later if I wanted. Well, now I want and they are gone! Used ones are scarce in Canada too. Oh well!

Your gun and load are certainly working well for you. Good going!

Longbow

[megasupermagnum]

Have you tried Alox lube? That's what I use, and it's far easier. Just one coat is more than enough, no effort at all.

@tripplebeards, Have you tried other shot sizes? The reason I ask is that I tried T, F, and 4 buck in my shotguns, and by far F produced the best patterns. T shot just doesn't like 12 gauge, not in lead or steel. Admittedly I have not tried BBB.

I'm not sure if I have any more T, I likely melted it down, but I do have some F you could try if you wanted.

[GBertolet]

Upon firing, the teflon tape is blown off as it leaves the barrel. I see the shreds in the air upon firing. I use the tape to mitigate any leading, which I get none of with the tape. The rifling grooves are not all that deep, so I want to keep them clear. I tried alox, but the bore seemed cleaner after the teflon tape. It's whatever works for you. As long as you get minute of venison accuracy, at whatever your shooting distance is, it's a go, either way.

I am going to powder coat some RB's. I will post pictures when there done.

[megasupermagnum]

What I find most interesting is the .737" ball size looks like it centers very well on those recovered slugs. My .735" mold casts in ball in actuality about .732"-.733" with COWW alloy. Plus you have teflon tape increasing the diameter farther.

My ultra slug hunter (same as your NEF), has a groove of .731", which is typical of these. My Mossberg smooth bores all run large, about .732". I get good accuracy, but recovered slugs often show a slightly off center ring. It also isn't engraved nearly as much as yours are.

I'm going to order a mold to drop a .738" ball to see how that goes.

[GBertolet]

I was quite fortunate that my .735 Lyman mold casts at .737. I have added some ww to the lead, which may have enlarged the RB's diameter slightly to get up to the .737. Being you already use ww, I guess a new mold might be necessiary.

[megasupermagnum]

I was quite fortunate that my .735 Lyman mold casts at .737. I have added some ww to the lead, which may have enlarged the RB's diameter slightly to get up to the .737. Being you already use ww, I guess a new mold might be necessiary.

My mold is from JT ball molds, mine was made by Jeff Tanner just before he died. At the time I didn't see anything listed, and ordered a .735" mold. Now that Jeff's son has taken over the company, I see he warns that the size you order is the cavity size, not the ball it drops. In that sense, the mold does as described. Later bought a mold from Jeff's son, ordered in .782", and it drops a perfect .780" ball.

Just a heads up for those looking to order from JT ball molds.

[GBertolet]

I just powder coated these RB's. The color is called traffic purple. I will eventually get around to trying them, as I have lot's of teflon tape slugs already loaded for future hunts. I only need two rounds a year. One to check the zero, and another to take the deer.

[gumbo333]

Two rounds a year...... Sort of takes the fun out of it. I would think you would be hot on to test some of the beautiful purple round balls so the many of us who enjoy reading these posts will know if they shoot as good as they look. Just my wondering mind!

[GBertolet]

Being you asked, I may have to make an exception here for later. The range is closed during the deer season. After then I will test.

[longbow]

Those look like big juicy berrys! I don't think I want to try one though!

How thick is the coating?

Yeah, I'm with msm on ball diameter as in bigger is better as long as it chambers. There isn't a bunch to squeeze down at the equator of a ball so they should swage down quite easily. I certainly haven't noticed any issues with the 0.735" RB even when shot through a 0.727" groove diameter rifled gun. I'll have to recheck but IIRC my 0.735" RB mould casts 0.736" with WW. In fact all my Lyman ball moulds cast a thou or two large with WW unlike their bullet moulds.

I too have seen the off center "belt" on my 0.735" RB's in my 0.733" smoothbore single shot. I figure the ball is catching the forcing cone offside so picking a bit of roll, or possibly getting a bit of spin when opening the crimp. Nonetheless, accuracy is generally quite good. That is the main reason I didn't get in on the Mihec 0.732" RB mould group buy, I didn't think it was big enough. The larger 0.735" ball gets squeezed to suit the bore.

The good 'ol round ball is simple and effective. Also easy to cast and easy to load. I like it!

Longbow

[Smoke4320]

I just powder coated these RB's. The color is called traffic purple. I will eventually get around to trying them, as I have lot's of teflon tape slugs already loaded for future hunts. I only need two rounds a year. One to check the zero, and another to take the deer.

Purple Deer Eaters .. got to love it :)

[725]

Happy to hear the JT mold's are being offered by the next generation. I really liked Tanner molds (have a few). Might have to order one soon for another project.

[jimb16]

Purple RBs? Grape shot?? *LOL*

[W.R.Buchanan]

OK, so now I've got to PC balls too? Those look too cool!

Randy

[longbow]

"Grape shot":D I like it! I'm still not going to try one though... just had some dental work done!

[Tripplebeards]

jawbreakers!... Don’t put any of those in the candy dish.

[GBertolet]

The round ball does it again part 2. I took a nice 7 point buck, the last day of the season, with the RB in my NEF Slug Hunter. I was using the old teflon tape wrapped RB, because I have so many of them already loaded. In dressing out the deer, I noticed the entrance hole, looking from the inside, was well over an inch in diameter. It must have hit a rib. The buck dropped instantly, kicked a few times, and that was it.

I still hold great optimism, that the powder coated RBs, will shoot even better than the teflon wrapped RB's. I wonder on how much, if any of the teflon tape remains on the ball, during part of, or all of the RB's flight. If so, an unbalanced drag will occur, causing a minute deflection on the flight. On a nearly 600 grain projectile, it shouldn't be all that much, but we are striving for perfection here, so any improvement is desirable. Anyhow, the teflon tapped RB, has minute of venison accuracy. I tried uploading a picture of the deer, but the system keeps saying, upload failed.

[richhodg66]

I have a 20 gauge rifled H&R, but it's the lighter barrel, not the USH. I have a .62 caliber round ball mold I've been meaning to cast some up and a box of 3" empty hulls. Pretty sure I can put something together.

I played around a bit with .60 caliber round balls in both a cheap Rossi single shot with a modified choke and my Savage 24 cylinder bore. The places and way I hunt (thick woods from a tree stand), no doubt in my mind I could be successful deer hunting with those.

[Markopolo]

wow.... this is awesome... i am gunna mess around with this come spring.. might be interesting what happens to a decent sized Black bear.... i have a first model citori that has a full and modified choke barrel that I would love to develop something for... i would really need to have that follow up shot capability. they are pretty heavy barreled.. but smooth bore.

[pmer]

I've only tried the shot cup version but it's a sure way to put a smile on my face! Congratulations on a nice deer! I need to try RB hunting sometime.

[Plate plinker]

I seriously doubt any tape stays on the ball. However have you tried loading in a shotshell wad? I do this with the lyman 525gr giant pellet and have great accuracy out to 100 yards.

[725]

On the question of teflon tape inducing unbalanced drag, I can see this as influential on a conical projectile, but it would seem marginal on a spherical projectile. Granted, the bore engagement at the equator of the ball alters the general spherical shape, but only slightly. If the tape turns the ball, the ball in flight is still a ball in flight and subject to the poor flight characteristics of sphere. No matter how far we extend the useful range of the RB, it's still a RB. I've been lucky with my .702 RB 12 ga. load and have gotten accuracy well beyond my expectations. A hundred yard shot is well within my comfy zone. You just can't beat a RB. Good hunting to all.

[gumbo333]

My twisted mind just wonders, if you had an old single shot shotgun, can that barrel be rifled somehow? Either 12 or 20 ga? I won't do it, just wondering if it can be done? Should the barrel be shortened to 20" or thereabouts? Thanks

[GBertolet]

There was guy, some time back, who advertised, that he would rifle a shotgun barrel for $50. I considered sending him my Stevens 110, but reconsidered as my bore measured .742.

I just did some quick research. The guy's name was Cain. The barrel walls had to be a certain thickness to rifle. He lost his business due to a divorce.

[rockrat]

I would think it could be rifled, but finding someone to do it is another story

[gumbo333]

Be a good hobby for somebody. A pull thru broach, maybe, a way to turn the barrel for twist. Wouldn't think the groves would need to be very deep if you had 8 of them. So many guys now have hobby lathes.

[bigted]

If so, what twist for RB?

[godzilla]

I have a 20 gauge rifled H&R, but it's the lighter barrel, not the USH. I have a .62 caliber round ball mold I've been meaning to cast some up and a box of 3" empty hulls. Pretty sure I can put something together.

I played around a bit with .60 caliber round balls in both a cheap Rossi single shot with a modified choke and my Savage 24 cylinder bore. The places and way I hunt (thick woods from a tree stand), no doubt in my mind I could be successful deer hunting with those.

Please post your results! I also have the light barrel 20 and I am done with feeding it sabots. This would be a great alternative if it will shoot.

[W.R.Buchanan]

I have to ask why the Teflon tape? Just to prevent leading?

I ask because there is pretty much no way the tape wraps smoothly and likely it comes off the ball unevenly or incompletely in the air. Maybe not an issue with rifled gun but from my experience with RB's in smoothbore I'd say that a tape wrapped ball would not be as accurate as a naked ball (or powder coated). I haven't tried it so speculation on my part but any defects in the ball seem to induce random spins and inconsistent accuracy when shot from smoothbore.

The tape is obviously not causing you any issues. Longbow

Kent: He is talking Teflon Thread Tape which very thin and pliable and can be stretched so thin it almost disappears and will conform to any shape.

Randy.

[GBertolet]

You are absolutely right Randy, I use the teflon plumbers tape, that is stretched thin when wrapping the RB. I use it for lubrication, and to eliminate any possible leading. Also a slow twist needed, for the RB, maybe 1-66, similar to the muzzle loaders setup for the RB.

[a danl]

Just took a nice 8 point buck with my trusty $179, 12 ga NEF Slug Hunter, using the .737 RB. The load consists of 40 gr of Blue Dot + BPGS seal + 1/2" hard cardboard + 1/2" soft fiber wad + .737 Lyman RB, teflon tape wrapped and roll crimped in a 3" Fiocchi hull. I am going to try powder coating next. I used to use the 2 3/4" hull, but the components fit better in the 3". I could probably go up to 45 gr of powder, but why? A RB weight of almost 600 grains, @ 1300 fps, will get any game's attention, and as a bonus, you get a nice pyrotechnic display in low light from the Blue Dot. There is no worry about slugs tumbling, skirts collapsing, petals shearing, or erratic accuracy. Shot after shot is right there with the RB. I zero 2" high at 50 yards, so I am good point blank, out to about 100 yards, with a center hold, although I never had to shoot that far yet. This is the 17th deer I have taken with this gun and load. I just can't see how anyone could ask for anything more effective. I have the Lee Key Drive mold, the Lyman forster mold, and the Rapine Flying Trashcan mold. They all are fun to play with, but the RB beats them all for consistency. Recoil is up there, but with heavy clothing on, and the excitement of the hunt, it is not even noticed.

congratulations, i always wanted to do the round ball but never did. however; i just shot a nice 6 pt buck with my lyman foster that i modified (swaged) to .734 and filled the base with beeswax with one 1/4 hard wad saturated with bore butter for lubricant then another 1/4 hard wad and one 1/2 wad and an x12x over bluedot. that was my 7th buck with this load. gives me a real satisfaction to be able to be self sufficient. i'm shooting an 870 fully rifled bbl. and i have complete confidence.

[getterdone]

if the guy Cain was located in ill. he died a few years back. he did a shot gun for a few folks i know. and also some custom rifles for myself and a friend of mine.

[longbow]

I got that Randy and if wrapping a cylinder I agree but trying to wrap a round ball evenly? I don't think I could do it. If the tape is uneven or wrinkled at all that will cause localized drag and likely cause random spin.

The tape may also start to unwrap as it doesn't stick to itself well. It stretches thin and looks great on threads but if you find the end it come loose easily.

Maybe not an issue from rifled gun due to spin stabilizing but from smoothbore I'd bet it wouldn't help accuracy. I've been wrong before though... lots! Maybe that is something else for me to try... I've got 0.735" RB's and I've got Teflon tape. Easy enough to give it a go on a few balls. This would be from smoothbore.

Longbow

[GBertolet]

I know I get a confetti show out the muzzle, when I fire the RB with the teflon tape wrap. I had just been wondering if that is all the tape, or is there some tape stuck or swaged onto the RB? I just don't know. I suspect that all of it is off within a few feet from the muzzle. I don't have high speed photography available to me to prove anything, one way or the other.

[bigted]

Makes sense to me that it sheds the tape within mere feet of the muzzle.

As with patched balls in a muzzleloader, the patch is fallen off by 10 feet or so.

The Teflon tape would be shredded at the hemisphere as it travels down the rifled barrel. Being cut and taking to the grooves, the tape should have zero influence on flight as it sheds very fast out of the barrel. Once the barrel imparts the twist and RPM's to the ball and the tape is shed, the only thing influencing the ball is air.

I see no reason that cloth, Teflon tape or anything that helps the ball make a positive contact with rifling and helps seal the gas behind its run down the barrel shouldn't be accurate. Round balls get good accuracy if spun just rite. Less from smooth bores but they will do (as mentioned) minute of deer up to a range only determined by testing.

This is where I'm at with round balls outta a rifled shotgun barrel. I am planning tests of my own smooth and my rifled barrel as well. Should be a fun romp.

[longbow]

You guys may be right on the Teflon tape separating from the ball. However, it is kinda stringy and being wrapped all the way around the ball it is not like a paper patch that gets cut by rifling then opens up as the bullet leaves the barrel. Maybe the tape is cut by rifling and the back half separates and front half stays on? Who knows? But I guess the short story is it is working for GBertolet so does it matter?

I don't have high speed cameras either so my opinion is speculation.

Something that will be happening soon though is a test of ACWW 0.735" RB's in fully rifled barrel by Blood Trail! I sent him 2 dozen balls he is loading up for accuracy testing to 100 yards and pressure testing. I hope he videos as well which I think he is planning. These will be naked 0.735" RB's. I am looking forward to BT's test results! I'm hoping he has enough after testing to shoot a hog with one too.

I'd like to do the same with 0.678" RB's in shotcups. Hogtamer did some testing a couple or three years ago and got mediocre results at 100 yards. Not sure of the fit in his barrel and I think fit would have to be really tight or with the small contact the ball could skid in the wad. 725 uses a 0.702" RB in a shotcup and that has to be TIGHT in a rifled barrel... or even smoothbore but it works for him. I find the 0.678" RB;s are a good fit in some wads but a bit loose in others in my smoothbore. I use a paper tube in the shotcup to tighten them up if necessary.

In my experience with smoothbore, round balls do very well to 50 yards or so but by 100 yards groups are getting pretty large and inconsistent. I think a rifled gun and good load with round ball should do as well as a slug to 100 yards.

So, if you do a test and BT does a test we should be getting some good info and results... and we have some people who are getting good success now.

Longbow

[725]

Rifling could be done on an old rifling machine. Pull through cutter guided by whatever twist rate you cut the guide for. I'd guess (emphasize guess), it would be a rather slow twist rate.

[longbow]

Yeah, round ball twist for 12 ga. ball runs about 1:120". I've made a rifling bench about 4 years ago for making rifled choke tube with 1:72" twist to try out. My logic was that I might want to shoot elongated HB slugs too so I wanted a compromise twist to handle a shortish conical too.

I rifled a piece of 3/4" pipe and that went quite well. Subsequently I bought a blank choke tube then bored it to 0.690" so I could cut deep rifling with narrow lands and wide grooves. Rifling didn't go well! My cutter was based on the Toad Hollow cutter made from the edge of a file, so small multi tooth. It cut the steel pipe quite well but the choke tube is hard (heat treated?) stainless and appears to work harden. Progress was SLOW! So I remade the cutter to single tooth and that seemed to do it but maybe a bit aggressive... it cut small curls of metal so good but it bit in and jammed. While unjamming the cutter I moved the choke tube without knowing and put it out of time then made another cut. Oops! Rifling got a bit messed up and I lost enthusiasm. One day I'll get back to it.

Anyway, modern rifled barrels and choke tubes are rifled quite fast at about 1:36" but during the little shooting I did in a borrowed rifled gun I recovered one 0.735" RB and the rifling was nice and crisp so no skidding. So maybe the rifling isn't too fast?

I'll wait to see how BT and bigted do with their tests.

Longbow

[W.R.Buchanan]

You guys may be right on the Teflon tape separating from the ball. However, it is kinda stringy and being wrapped all the way around the ball it is not like a paper patch that gets cut by rifling then opens up as the bullet leaves the barrel. Maybe the tape is cut by rifling and the back half separates and front half stays on? Who knows? But I guess the short story is it is working for GBertolet so does it matter?

I don't have high speed cameras either so my opinion is speculation. Sounds like a job for Taofledermous
Longbow

Maybe we can send some along to them.

Randy

[longbow]

Let's see hoe BT's tests go. He'll be using naked balls maybe tumble lubed. In all the 0.735" RB shooting I did leading was not an issue though I only shot a few through a rifled gun so not much experience there.

It would be interesting to get BT to try some Teflon tape wrapped balls too but he is already putting a fair bit of effort into this so maybe a bit much to ask and he only has 2 dozen RB's to play with.

I just may have to try wrapping a ball to see how it goes but I'd have to think that if leading is a problem tumble lube or powder coating the RB's would be easier than Teflon tape. However, GBertolet has a winning combination with what he is doing so hard to find fault in that.

Anyway, back to high speed video... I wonder if Taofledermaus would do a test of wrapped balls? They have already shot video of 0.735" RB's shot from both smoothbore and rifled gun with really good results from rifled gun and not bad from smoothbore but as usual pretty abbreviated tests.

It would be interesting to see if the tape does shred and leave or if some stays with the ball. Also interesting to see would be wad columns leaving the muzzle under slugs and balls. I think the wad column is a weak point in out loading. RanchDog went to all card wad column with Lee slugs in shotcups with the cushion leg and gas seal cut off for that reason... stable wad column. I'm betting that many wads do not collapse evenly under slugs or balls so when they leave the muzzle the gas seal is tilted somewhat leading to inaccuracy, like a poor base on a boolit. RB's on trap wads with petals cut off or sub bore balls in shotcups would see the same effect.

To note, the Russian slugs with proprietary tail wads are like Gualandi DGS slug tail wads, they are pretty beefy and symmetrical which is even more important for them because they stay with the slug so can't be allowed to distort much or that would cause inaccuracy.

So... might just be worth proposing some high speed video testing to Taofledermaus to see what they do and what we can learn. Good idea Randy!

Longbow

[Petander]

If so, what twist for RB?

Yeah,I'm sort of interested too. Both 20 and 12 full bore RB's in a rifled barrel are interesting...

Here where I live,a rifled shotgun is a rare sight. But I might get a barrel ordered... Many 12's are 1/36 or so,it seems? But are they for sabots?

[GBertolet]

Typically all rifled shotgun barrels are intended for saboted slugs, not round balls, so the rifling twist rates reflect what is best for these slugs. A round ball typically performs it's best, with a much slower twist rate. I am unaware of any factory loaded, full caliber round ball ammunition, only saboted and foster type slugs. Only us adventurous hand loaders use the round ball today, and we are a minority, so outside of a custom made barrel, we are resigned to use the factory designated, standard barrels. In retrospect, they tend to give satisfactory performance with the round ball, for our hunting needs.

[fcvan]

I have played with shooting .69 RB through an IC barrel on an 970 Express Magnum. First efforts were made with home brew wads made of paper pulp formed in a press. It worked okay, but was basically 'paper plate groups' at 50 yards. I had seen better results but I was just trying something 'different.'

I later bought some double cupped wads, basically a gas seal on either end. I have not had the chance to test them yet, and plan to fold crimp and roll crimp. On the subject of PC balls, I do the ASBBPC and ESPC methods. I have had better results with repeatable thicknesses from ASBBPC than ESPC, but that was never tried specifically to PC for increased thickness with the latter. PC is more for looks than function, but function will be specifically tested. Cool colors are just cool, but will likely be gloss black or grey.

I think the double cup wads will do quite well, and plan to use corn meal in the payload cup for height adjustment as it is easy to measure. I may try paper patching the RB to hold it in place as well as for fitment. Ultimate goal however, is a rifled barrel 20 ga 870 Wingmaster Express specifically for RB. Either 12 or 20, goal is for 1000 - 1100 fps, and expected range 25 to 50 yards as a pig buster/fun range gun that won't be punishing for youth shooters.

I've got a few grand kids, and they seem to be stacking up this past year. Sure, I started shooting full 12 ga loads when I was 8, I was not a big kid having started High School at 5' tall. I just think I had a great teacher in my Dad, and so was not recoil shy. Today's generation has been indoctrinated to think guns are evil already, recoil would only add to the fear factor. Sure, I could teach them gradually and hope for the best :)

My Wife actually won the 20 ga 870 at a Ducks Unlimited dinner but gifted it to me. I had her shoot it and she didn't care for it. Some years later, she inherited a Win 1897 12 ga, and had to shoot it. Somehow, she didn't mind the recoil at all. I think if I make the 20 ga a RB shooter, she will enjoy shooting it more. She likes 00 buck and slugs through her 870 12 ga, she will love how cheap loading RB for the 20 and buck for the 870 as I cast for both. For the 00 Buck, I plan on buying some semi clear hulls, and layering some red, white, and blue as suggested by my brother, and zombie green for me. Range rounds will likely just be black or barbie pink. What the heck, range day shooting can be fun!

[longbow]

My son wanted to shoot 12 ga. at 10 years old and he wasn't a big kid. One round was all it took to change his mind... at least about "standard" loads. He wanted a 12 ga. and started saving his money for one so I paid for half the price of a used 870 and he had his first adult shotgun. My solution was to download and pattern for him. I don't recall the load specifics except it was a 1 1/8 oz. payload over Unique. I dropped the powder charge by about 10% or so and that did it. He could handle the recoil and we sorted out a range where the pattern was good so that was his max. range.

I think a faster powder would be a better choice but that worked out and I had lots of Unique so... make do!

Easy to do when you are a handloader.

I am sure if you download those RB loads for the 20 ga. young 'uns and wife will be able to handle them easily and enjoy shooting them. Big holes always impress!

For those 0.690" RB's I'd suggest a donut wad on top of the cornmeal filler to keep the RB centered. If you lift it out of the cup with filler it may not stay centered. Or put the filler under the cup to get the RB to crimp height. I'd also say that I think fold crimp would be better for 0.690" RB as it may be a bit small to open a roll crimp.

Good round ball loads through smoothbore should give 4" or better groups out to at least 50 yards.

Just a couple of thoughts.

Have fun regardless!

Longbow

[Petander]

Okay thanks,got it.

I just find rifled barrel / RB an interesting combo. For no real reason,again. I'm not very good at making sense.

But accurate guns are interesting.

[missionary5155]

We stray away from RB off and on but it does not take us long to realize at our river bottom ranges no slug works better. Our longest shot to date is 33yards and most are under 20 yards. I hope I can stay down by the water the rest of my life while thwapping corn crunchers.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Mike: I bet those round balls you load are going much faster due to the air density at 10,000 feet?

Randy

[Super Sneaky Steve]

Today I cast some .720 hoping to get pie plate accuracy at 25 yards out of a smooth bore. I didn't have good luck with .690 in a doughnut or .680 in a wad. I'm hoping full diameter will work. They powder coated really well and I chucked them into the snow right out of the oven. Casting in the winter has it's advantages.

[longbow]

Are you using a hard nitro card wad in the shotcup under the ball?

Plastic wads/shotcups tend to try to wrap themselves around the ball when they get kicked in the butt by 10,000 PSI. A little support under the ball goes a long way to improving accuracy.

A 0.680" ball in shotcup with proper wad support should be giving you 4" or so groups out to 50 yards. I use 16 ga. or 20 ga. nitro card wads in the 12 ga. trap wads.

If the 0.720" ball is naked accuracy isn't likely to be very good though maybe acceptable at 25 yards. Is the gun choked?

As long as the ball is well supported, centered in the bore and not spinning you should be able to get at least hunting level accuracy to 50 yards.

Yup! I often cool my moulds in the snow if I am casting fast and they start to overheat. Just set the bottom of the mould in the snow while a boolit/ball cools then cast another 5 or so then cool again.

Longbow

[Super Sneaky Steve]

I was trying to put the balls on top of something soft so they wouldn't deform coming out of the barrel. If I need a hard surface behind it I certainly can try that. The gun I'm using is a short 16" over under with no chokes. The problem may also be my powder choice. I'm using HS6 and I'm getting a lot of unburnt powder. Fold crimps would give me some failures with the ball barely making it out of the gun. A tight roll crimp works OK but still doesn't give me a complete burn. I was hoping the extra resistance of a full caliber would help up the pressure enough to burn. With the PC they won't roll freely in the barrel.

The smaller balls I was using a wad that was trimmed down to right where the ball goes full diameter. My plan was to remove the pedals completely with the .720s. I'll add the nitro card if you think it needs it.

[longbow]

You should start by using typical trap loads for 1 oz. or 1 1/8 oz. birdshot then replace shot with ball (0.678" is just over an ounce in pure lead and about an ounce in WW). Add at least one 1/8" nitro card wad under the ball and I like to add a small scoop of Cream 'O Wheat o lift the ball slightly so it fills in the gap under the ball. Then when that wad gets a boot in the butt at 10,000 PSI it can't wrap around the ball.

Randy Buchannan has good success using a felt wad under his 0.662" RB's in standard trap wads using a Green Dot trap load powder charge.

HS6 is fairly slow powder so best suited to heavy payloads and large powder charges. I mostly use Blue Dot for heavy slug loads but find that if the payload is light or I download too much I get incomplete burn and erratic accuracy. Best to use published recipes for the payload you are using. The 0.678" RB is about an ounce so use 1 oz. to 1 1/8 oz. slug load data or 1 oz. to 1 1/8 oz. birdshot load data to get best results.

Try to find wads after shooting. In my experience if the ball hasn't been supported well the bottom of the shotcup will be distorted and often the gas seal will have failed as well. Something else to look for is damaged petals. Depending on shotcup the ball may have to be spaced up some on nitro card wads or similar to get to decent crimp height or you'll have to cut the petals some. A 7/8 oz. shotcup might be okay with just a nitro card wad and a scoop of COW to get the ball set right but a 1 1/8 oz. wad will be too deep so needs some help.

I tried 0.735" RB's on cushion legs with petals cut off and no support under the balls. Total failure! The wads tried to wrap around the balls and cracked the bottom of the shotcup and gas seals distorted and failed. I had good results with those RB's on a hard card wad column with plastic gas seal over the powder. Smaller RB's like 0.662" and 0.678" do well in a shotcup with the nitro card wad and COW.

Wad type will have an effect too. I have limited selection available so have to order in and usually use Winchester wads because they were available. It seems Federal wads are tougher... at least according to what I read. I had some old Pacific Verelite blue wads that were thicker and "better" cushion and gas seal then the Winchester wads that did very well with my round ball and slug loads.

Take a look at SuperBlazingSabots thread (its a sticky) on ball/slug/wad fit. Lots of good info there! And great pics!

Longbow

[missionary5155]

Projectile fit is the #1 bug-a boo in all shooting with cast. Snug has beat alot of bugs.

[SuperBlazingSabots]

Great post and sure enjoyed reading your thoughts on the subject.
Keep it up.
For 12 gauge .690" RB shooters
https://i.imgur.com/wSrmpV9.jpg
but that Win Yellow 12F114 wad is not in the picture, the measurements are at the bottom
of the picture .731" to .733" always cast them with WW
* * Need a good solid firm base is very important to keep the wad base from wrapping around the RB.
* * The ones whose barrel is Over bored will love the Fed 12S-0 wad third from left and 4th from left in Red Versalite wad !
https://i.imgur.com/XjoJTL0.jpg
Here is a neat trick, every time you add yet another .125" or .135" nitro card in wad below your RB / Slug your OD dimensions decrease a bit !
Always buy your RB mold made by Lee Precision for $21 at MidSouth, don't pay $ 30, 40 or 50
Removing those ugly no good spruce sure is a pain and disaster for our accuracy!
https://i.imgur.com/Y8weP67.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/EY4DDRR.jpg
I would suggest using two nitro cards below the RB and Lee Drive Key slug in wad and then fold crimp
https://i.imgur.com/LVjnxcN.jpg
Just look at this beautiful picture, its telling us something.
All that matters is the " Fit " and the nitro cards doing wonders by help supporting our substandard wads ! !
https://i.imgur.com/hEDYacY.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/VymXreb.jpg

God is great, May his Grace and Glory be with you.

Best regards,
Ajay K. Madan
Super Blazing Sabots

[GBertolet]

2022 update: I just took this 7 point buck with the RB, at about 100 yards. Still have quite a few rounds left with the teflon tape. Didn't get to the powder coated balls yet. 40 grains of Blue Dot powers this load.

[Charlie Horse]

I've got that same Traffic Purple powder. It works really well. I asked Smoke to send me what works best and that was it.