Open Theism

[dverna]

My studying has led me to Open Theism. I did not know what it was until last week.

I had expressed some thoughts about the limit of God’s omniscience to an elder i know of the E Free church I attend. He forwarded my email to our Pastor. Our Pastor forwarded a number of links on Open Theism and why the doctrine is not acceptable.

I fear the arguments opposing it are rather weak IMHO.

I have also learned that a minority of the Evangelical Theological Society supported it in the early 2000’s. A vote to expel two members who proposed it failed to reach the 2/3 majority.

If there are any members who are Open Thiests, I would appreciate knowing which denominations you are affiliated with that are accepting of this concept.

Thanks in advance.

[BNE]

What are the basic beliefs of an Open Theist? This is new to me.

[dverna]

What are the basic beliefs of an Open Theist? This is new to me.

In a nut shell
God knows all that has happened and all that is currently happening
God can predict some events in the future but not all events...this is because man’s free will can affect God’s plan and God makes corrections
God is not perfect in predicting everything in the future but perfect in making current decisions because He knows everything
There may be errors in the Bible caused by man’s interpretation of scripture.

[Ickisrulz]

I cannot create matter from nothing and I do not know my children's private thoughts or what they do every second of the day. However, I can predict with fair accuracy how they will react to certain things, what they will do this upcoming weekend, what they want for dinner, etc.

To say that God knows all the past and all the present but yet can be surprised by anything man has done or will do doesn't make a bit of sense. Don't forget, God also knows everyone's inner thoughts.

[flint45]

God knows all and God makes no mistakes despite what some men would claim. Read the word know the word. Look up Grace to you ministries with Pastor John MacArthur.

[dverna]

I cannot create matter from nothing and I do not know my children's private thoughts or what they do every second of the day. However, I can predict with fair accuracy how they will react to certain things, what they will do this upcoming weekend, what they want for dinner, etc.

To say that God knows all the past and all the present but yet can be surprised by anything man has done or will do doesn't make a bit of sense. Don't forget, God also knows everyone's inner thoughts.

If God knows our free will choices before we make them, does that mean we are destined to make wise or foolish choices from the beginning of time. In essence, our free will Choices are preordained and known by God?

If that is this case, is free will a cruel joke foisted upon us by theologians? Our choices have been made already. God knows what they are. We cannot take a path different than what God expects?

[Ickisrulz]

If God knows our free will choices before we make them, does that mean we are destined to make wise or foolish choices from the beginning of time. In essence, our free will Choices are preordained and known by God?

If that is this case, is free will a cruel joke foisted upon us by theologians? Our choices have been made already. God knows what they are. We cannot take a path different than what God expects?

People are free to make whatever choices they want. These choices can be good, bad or neutral (e.g., I ate a salad for lunch). God's foreknowledge of our choices has no bearing on whether or not we will make them.

Despite what people think and say, there is no divine plan for our lives that lays out every step. Not everything happens for a reason (i.e., God's reason). There are things that happen to us that God would prefer didn't happen because of our choices or other people's choices. There are also coincidences (Luke 10:31).

The only valid criticism, when it comes to God's foreknowledge of a person's bad decision, is that he does not step in and prevent it. If I were to see my son head to school carrying a loaded firearm mumbling about payback, I would stop him. If I didn't, I'd bear some responsibility for the outcome. God operates on another level that we can trust, knowing he is wise and loving.

[BNE]

Dverna, thanks for the definition. I don’t have any recommendations for a church that would support that line of reasoning.

I am oddly content NOT being able to explain the differences between free will and predestination.

I had an old preacher friend that told me it was not 50/50, it was 100% /100%. I think God wants our trust in Him. And He will explain it when we get to Heaven. Assuming we accept Christ.

[dverna]

Most of us will not make free will choices that affect the world, or God’s plan. We will affect ourselves, and our families...maybe our employees or out employer...etc etc.

But the free will choices of leaders and governments may significantly affect how our world unfolds and God’s plan.

An extreme case. Putin has a breakdown and, using his free will, initiates a nuclear war that has global consequences. If this is God’s plan...all is good...? Putin’s free will has completed His plan. But I believe that is not the plan God has revealed in Revelations.

[Ickisrulz]

Most of us will not make free will choices that affect the world, or God’s plan. We will affect ourselves, and our families...maybe our employees or out employer...etc etc.

But the free will choices of leaders and governments may significantly affect how our world unfolds and God’s plan.

An extreme case. Putin has a breakdown and, using his free will, initiates a nuclear war that has global consequences. If this is God’s plan...all is good...? Putin’s free will has completed His plan. But I believe that is not the plan God has revealed in Revelations.

God is always attempting to influence people for good. Two examples are the spread of Gospel and sending prophets to Israel.

Sometimes God stops people dead in their tracks. Examples are the Tower of Babel, Noah's Flood and the protection of the Nation of Israel.

But overall, God seems to work without exercising his unstoppable will on man...at least at this point. He works within the frame work of man's decisions and progress.

For what it is worth, some make a distinction between the permissive will of God and the sovereign will of God. The "permissive will" is the idea that God will allows certain things to happen, but not desire that they do. The "sovereign will of God" refers to something that God will do despite what his creatures may desire.

God has permitted world leaders to do all kinds of horrible things (75 million dead in WW2). I don't see where Scripture suggests God would step in to prevent an event that would eliminate much of the world's population.

[dverna]

Ickisrulz,

I agree with your distinction between the permissive will of God and His sovereign will.

Many people wonder why God allows evil things to occur or natural disasters that kill so many I have no answers. I assume God has His reasons and we are unable to understand. He has the power to create the universe....stopping disasters, genocide, etc is easily within His ability. It amuses me that people believe God will protect them from evil. It does not happen in every case...even in the Bible.

[dverna]

I have found a church 25 miles from me that accepts Open Theism. It is a United Church of Christ.

It will be difficult to leave my friends at my current church, but if they are friends, we will remain so.

[semtav]

But overall, God seems to work without exercising his unstoppable will on man...at least at this point. He works within the frame work of man's decisions and progress.



Excellent way to frame it.

Weather is one of the issues i always had with my wife's beliefs. I believe God set up the earth and its weather patterns etc so they would be self sustaining. Now he might change things from time to time as necessary, but he isnt manipulating every cloud every wind every storm every day all the time. My wife feels just the opposite.



Sent from my E6910 using Tapatalk

[1hole]

Theology = The study of God and his Bible; anything else is man's philosophy and nothing more.

What we (spiritually) "believe" largely depends on who we wish to be in command and control, be it God as he reveals himself in scripture or in ourselves as revealed in history. Man is a ruthless and bloody god.

I'm a Christian so it follows that I believe in the God of the Bible, not me. I know there's no man-made "open" theology about it because He has proven himself to be true to Biblical theology in everything I've ever experienced.

I figger that if I were open to making up (and believing) my own theology then I'd have to create my own universe, living critters and a heavenly after life too; I don't know how to do any of that. ??

[Ickisrulz]

What we (spiritually) "believe" largely depends on who we wish to be in command and control

I wish it were that simple. There are plenty of Christians out there who genuinely want God in control of their lives, but have serious errors in their theology and thinking.

I knew of a guy who was under the impression the only time he should have sex with his wife was when they wanted a child. He suffered due to his own ignorance.

It's imperative that Christians do their best to understand what the Bible actually says. It's hard work. God will not "miracle" the knowledge into someone just because their heart is in the right place.

[dtknowles]

Theology = The study of God and his Bible; anything else is man's philosophy and nothing more.

What we (spiritually) "believe" largely depends on who we wish to be in command and control, be it God as he reveals himself in scripture or in ourselves as revealed in history. Man is a ruthless and bloody god.

I'm a Christian so it follows that I believe in the God of the Bible, not me. I know there's no man-made "open" theology about it because He has proven himself to be true to Biblical theology in everything I've ever experienced.

I figger that if I were open to making up (and believing) my own theology then I'd have to create my own universe, living critters and a heavenly after life too; I don't know how to do any of that. ??

theology
[THēˈäləjē]

NOUN
the study of the nature of God and religious belief.
"a theology degree"
religious beliefs and theory when systematically developed.
"a willingness to tolerate new theologies"
synonyms:
religious studies · religion · scripture

God and theology is for all believers not just Christians

To think otherwise is religious bigotry

Tim

[Thundarstick]

God and theology is for all believers not just Christians

Tim[/QUOTE]

Belief in what, or who is the real question. The very nature and concept of God is what separates religions. IMHO The forum should have been named "Deep Christian Theology"

[jonp]

It would seem to me that if God knows all then there can be nothing He can't know including any "undetermined future" from actions you might take. Logically, that doesn't make sense.

God knows all truths but the qualifier "all truths that can be known" Open Theist's believe in negates an All Knowing God. So what exactly are you believing in? A God that is no better than you? Man as a supreme being that just lives in the moment with total free will unjudged for any actions because God knows no better than you what the future consequences for your actions are? You might as well be a secular progressive if that is the case in my opinion.

I'm more of a Calvinist than anything at this point but Open Theism seems more of a belief system tailored to people that want no judgement of their actions because God knows no better than they do what the future is. If God doesn't know what the future is then there can be no downside to any current choices or beliefs as how can you say they are wrong? No one including God can know that.

[jonp]

But overall, God seems to work without exercising his unstoppable will on man...at least at this point. He works within the frame work of man's decisions and progress.

Backwards it seems to me

[dtknowles]

If God knows all possible futures, I wonder why prophesy proclaims apocalyptical destruction. Surely humanity could be guided to greater glory with tiny Godly intervention. It is not like God doesn't do miracles and is totally hands off. Most of you believe he sent us his son to save us 2000 years ago. It might be time for another intervention. God does love us, even us sinners.

Tim

[Ickisrulz]

But overall, God seems to work without exercising his unstoppable will on man...at least at this point. He works within the frame work of man's decisions and progress.

Backwards it seems to me

How so?

Edit: I just noticed in post #18 you are a Calvinist. So I suppose my statement would seem backwards to you.

[MakeMineA10mm]

I cannot create matter from nothing and I do not know my children's private thoughts or what they do every second of the day. However, I can predict with fair accuracy how they will react to certain things, what they will do this upcoming weekend, what they want for dinner, etc.

To say that God knows all the past and all the present but yet can be surprised by anything man has done or will do doesn't make a bit of sense. Don't forget, God also knows everyone's inner thoughts.

You hit the nail on the head.

The biggest struggle for some people is accepting they cannot understand the level God operates on. I’ve come to accept that simply because I cannot wrap my head around the concept of omniscience does not mean God does not have it.

I am a Wesleyan Arminian, so I do feel predestined salvation is not correct, per Calvin. So man does have a free will. In fact, it is the biggest curse, as well as blessing... However, that does not preclude God from knowing what will happen. He simply stays out of our decision-making and lets us come to our own choices. Sometimes He is happy for us and sometimes not, but he knew where we were going to go.

[1hole]

It would seem to me that if God knows all then there can be nothing He can't know including any "undetermined future" from actions you might take. Logically, that doesn't make sense.

..... No one including God can know that.

Oh, you place human limits on an all present, all knowing, all powerful God; take a look at the universe and say that again! I believe your god is much too small. (read Rom chap. 1, especially v. 19-20)

My God is the God of the Bible. He is not limited like man; he is higher than man, his thoughts are not like man's and, unlike any mere man - including me - , he knew the end of history before the beginning of creation. My God can, has and does foretell the future with precision, he isn't sitting around heaven watching us to learn what we will do.

[jonp]

Oh, you place human limits on an all present, all knowing, all powerful God; take a look at the universe and say that again! I believe your god is much too small. (read Rom chap. 1, especially v. 19-20)

My God is the God of the Bible. He is not limited like man; he is higher than man, his thoughts are not like man's and, unlike any mere man - including me - , he knew the end of history before the beginning of creation. My God can, has and does foretell the future with precision, he isn't sitting around heaven watching us to learn what we will do.

No, I don't place human limits on God and that was my point. Maybe I didn't make that clear?

[1hole]

You hit the nail on the head.

The biggest struggle for some people is accepting they cannot understand the level God operates on. I’ve come to accept that simply because I cannot wrap my head around the concept of omniscience does not mean God does not have it.

I am a Wesleyan Arminian, so I do feel predestined salvation is not correct, per Calvin. So man does have a free will.

Point of order: Predestination is Biblical, not because of Calvin but because it's scriptural. Calvin was simply the first theologian to pay attention to notice it.

Until the early and mid 1,500s all institutional Church doctrine was Roman Catholic. They formally taught that salvation was ONLY through the RC Church and it's various rites, priests and Popes; Calvin showed the world the RCC was wrong and was the first to live to tell it. (Calvin's witness: Read the first chapter of nearly all New Testament books between Acts and Revelation and watch for "predestined", "elect", "chosen", etc.)

Now, in anticipation of the usual fire storm of armenian protest, let me point out that recognising predestination is true does NOT negate man's absolutely necessary free will choice of following our Lord Jesus.

[dtknowles]

Did God foresee that he would send the great flood? Doesn't God foresee many possible futures that God could create. Don't you believe that God answers prayers and acts upon the world in other ways.

Tim

[1hole]

Did God foresee that he would send the great flood? Doesn't God foresee many possible futures that God could create.

Certainly.


Don't you believe that God answers prayers and acts upon the world in other ways.

Certainly.

Now, you tell me; When did God know about and for what each of us would lift prayers and supplications? ???

[dtknowles]

Certainly.



Certainly.

Now, you tell me; When did God know about and for what each of us would lift prayers and supplications? ???

God might know of all our actions but it seems he does know the consequences of God's own actions why else would God have regrets.

Genesis 6:6

And the LORD regretted that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart.

I don't think God knows about things God is not paying attention to. God is not dead God just does not care as much about Earth and humans anymore.

Tim

[1hole]

Tim, you're trying and that's good. But the hairs of our heads are numbered by God and no sparrow falls without his knowledge. Meaning NOTHING that happens anywhere at all escapes his notice.

In our limited ability to grasp the magnitude of God, he has chosen to use words we can understand. His Bible uses words and expressions to show us he understands where we are and how we think. Thus we see that Jesus is "a solid rock, the rock of ages, a cornerstone, a lamb, a lion, the lily of the valley, living water", etc. None are literal expressions but all are true in the sense the writer intended but it's definitely not literal. That truth includes your reference to the expression of God's "regret".

It may shock some people but Jesus and biblical characters didn't speak in 1611 King James English. A (smart) 5th grade kid can read scripture and see what it says in English but no such kid can grasp much of what it means.

So, don't get too tied up in precisely what is written in every verse of scripture. Instead, put it all together and pray for spiritual guidance. Seek to understand what the words mean, i.e., what the real message is. That's not always child-like easy but stick with the point of the Biblical message as best you can. Avoid distracting and pointless red herrings and you'll do okay.

[wv109323]

To believe in open theism we would need to strike John 3:16 from the Bible. The verse says "whosoever believeth". That would be in conflict with open theism and Calviniem. I don't understand how whosoever can be limited to a predetermined group.
I see our earthly lives as a boot camp. The Bible gives us some simple instructions on how we should prepare for the afterlife. If we can not abide by them why would God want to surround himself with doubters and objecters.

[dverna]

It would seem to me that if God knows all then there can be nothing He can't know including any "undetermined future" from actions you might take. Logically, that doesn't make sense.

God knows all truths but the qualifier "all truths that can be known" Open Theist's believe in negates an All Knowing God. So what exactly are you believing in? A God that is no better than you? Man as a supreme being that just lives in the moment with total free will unjudged for any actions because God knows no better than you what the future consequences for your actions are? You might as well be a secular progressive if that is the case in my opinion.

I'm more of a Calvinist than anything at this point but Open Theism seems more of a belief system tailored to people that want no judgement of their actions because God knows no better than they do what the future is. If God doesn't know what the future is then there can be no downside to any current choices or beliefs as how can you say they are wrong? No one including God can know that.

Your understanding of Open Theism is incorrect. This is skewing your judgement.

But I am not here to convince anyone which religion is correct....the hundreds of sects within Christianity have failed to provide the "one correct religion"....so who knows? Open Theists are Christians even if they are feared (and misunderstood) by some other Christians.

Regrettably, many Christians are influenced by "group think" from childhood or by whichever sect wherein they have found comfort. The danger is not that they are "wrong" but that they think they are "right" and somehow superior to other Christians. So far, God has been mute on which brand of Christianity is "correct". He will let us know if we get too far off course. I will trust Him and the Bible to guide me.

BTW, this past Sunday our Pastor quoted a section of the Bible but told us it had not been translated properly. That always instantly raises a red flag for me. This happened in an Evangelical church that believes in the inerrancy of the Bible....so how could the translation be incorrect? But the sheep follow the shepherd....well, the vast majority of them.

[Ickisrulz]

BTW, this past Sunday our Pastor quoted a section of the Bible but told us it had not been translated properly. That always instantly raises a red flag for me. This happened in an Evangelical church that believes in the inerrancy of the Bible....so how could the translation be incorrect? But the sheep follow the shepherd....well, the vast majority of them.

Most that hold that the Bible is without error only apply that distinction to the original manuscripts. There are known differences in manuscripts and known errors in English translations. So at times a teacher can say, "This verse would be better translated as..." and be correct.

(Yes, there are people who believe the KJV is inspired. Why? I have no idea.)

[dverna]

Most that hold that the Bible is without error only apply that distinction to the original manuscripts. There are known differences in manuscripts and known errors in English translations. So at times a teacher can say, "This verse would be better translated as..." and be correct.

(Yes, there are people who believe the KJV is inspired. Why? I have no idea.)

I enjoy your posts as I learn a great deal from them. What you say makes sense, but regrettably many people do not make the differentiation between the original texts and the translations. So we are left with the translated Word. I, for one, am not prepared to learn the ancient languages as it was bad enough I had to study Latin in high school.

A quick search shows 450 English translations of the Bible. It is a stretch to believe each one is "divinely inspired", yet I suspect many think so. It can be a challenge as sometimes what seems like a minor tweak can have a major impact on the meaning of the Word.

[1hole]

We have a small percentage of believers who are quite sure the KJV is/was inspired, word for word; they are wrong but it's a harmless error. Neither King James nor the Lord nor any of his disciples spoke in Middle English. Thing about that is words change meaning over time; if we have no revisions to follow the changes the message becomes impossible to properly understand.

I know of no one who claims any other than the KJV translation is inspired.

[popper]

God is not perfect in predicting everything in the future What makes us believe He predicts anything? His plan is working, many prophecies where (speaking through others) we know of his plan and what will happen to accomplish His plan. Why would one think God cares when I go to the restroom? Or what I eat for breakfast?


I don't think God knows about things God is not paying attention to. God is not dead God just does not care as much about Earth and humans anymore.
Darwinist - that lead came from the ground and turned into a boolit. Wait and maybe it will be loaded ammo.
Deist - Somebody put it there, so what.
Theist - Somebody put it there, watching to see what I do with it?
Atheist - I made that boolit. It's MINE.
Agnostic - don't know, don't care - busy on Twitter.
Starwarism - alien left me some ammo.
StarTreian - little guy who messes thngs up to get a chucle.

Calvinist - God selects who will be a believer.
Arminianism - Man can choose to believe in God.
So Open Theism would be what? New definition from man?
BTW, Tim doesn't believe in miracles but what would you call Creation? Pretty much a MAJOR miracle to me.
Many think the Bible is fiction as there are no 'other' writings describing events. Well, Noah didn't have anyone to write to, Pharaoh wasn't going to make inscriptions that his slaves got away and his charioteers were drowned. Philistine king wasn't going to tell anybody his 30,000 warriors ran off from a toddler with a stone. Nor is the Gov of Judah going to write to Rome stating his guards couldn't keep the body from disappearing.

[1hole]

(See Isaiah 55:8-9)

Questioning the foreknowledge, love or wisdom of God is far above our pay grade and demanding explanations is an insult to him; God is our Father and we are his children so he need not submit to us. Amongst other things, that means that, as children, we repeatedly ask, "Why?" after every answer. That's understandable from children but, truth is, we really don't need to know the whys or how's of his actions and, like children, we probably wouldn't understand if he told us.

No matter how smart and grown up we seem in our own eyes, we remain children in his eyes ... and rightly so!

[a danl]

Most of us will not make free will choices that affect the world, or God’s plan. We will affect ourselves, and our families...maybe our employees or out employer...etc etc.

But the free will choices of leaders and governments may significantly affect how our world unfolds and God’s plan.

An extreme case. Putin has a breakdown and, using his free will, initiates a nuclear war that has global consequences. If this is God’s plan...all is good...? Putin’s free will has completed His plan. But I believe that is not the plan God has revealed in Revelations.

everyone faces many decisions in our lives ; example ; there are three doors that we can walk thru to get a job, knowing god's word and character, which door would you walk thru that would glorify him , and not your own desires ? some make good decisions and some make horrible decisions, that's where free will comes in.

[1hole]

theology [THēˈäləjē]

God and theology is for all believers not just Christians

Oh, really? Would you consider that the writers of your dictionary are, like you, not Christians and that distorts their understanding of the proper meaning of "theology"?

[dtknowles]

Oh, really? Would you consider that the writers of your dictionary are, like you, not Christians and that distorts their understanding of the proper meaning of "theology"?

Not my dictionary but one of the most authoritative dictionaries of the English language. The meaning of words is what dictionaries are about but maybe you only use dictionaries meant for Christians like English words have different meanings for Christians than for everyone else.

I think there are some clues in the word's etymology.

Etymology of the word Theology.

The word theology comes from two Greek words - theos, which means "god," and logos, which means "words.". The simplest definition of theology, then, is "god words" or words about god.

Of course to a Christian it might seem that is limited to the Bible but guess what for more than half the people on the planet not all God's words or words about God are in the Bible.

Many Christians are narrow minded.

Tim

[exile]

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,..." Ephesians 1:3-5 (E.S.V.)

So much for Open Theism.

Sorry, it is late, and my tolerance for bad theology is slim.

exile

[dverna]

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,..." Ephesians 1:3-5 (E.S.V.)

So much for Open Theism.

Sorry, it is late, and my tolerance for bad theology is slim.

exile

I do not understand how that conflicts with Open Theism.

[exile]

I do not understand how that conflicts with Open Theism.

Your original post seems to indicate that those who believe in open theism feel that God's knowledge of all things is somehow limited, weak and ineffectual.

I felt (and still feel) that those verses disprove that thesis rather firmly.

exile

[exile]

"And the men marveled, saying, 'What sort of man is this, that even winds and sea obey him?'" Matthew 8:27 (E.S.V.)

[a danl]

Did God foresee that he would send the great flood? Doesn't God foresee many possible futures that God could create. Don't you believe that God answers prayers and acts upon the world in other ways.

Tim

hey tim, why do you suppose God told noah to build the ark about 120 years before the great flood ? after all it did take him 120 years to complete the ark. so why would God have asked him to do that if He didn't know ahead of time and besides all that it never rained on the earth until then. all the people alive then must have thought he was crazy "what's a boat for?'. BUT ON THAT DAY THEY SOON FOUND OUT.

[dtknowles]

hey tim, why do you suppose God told noah to build the ark about 120 years before the great flood ? after all it did take him 120 years to complete the ark. so why would God have asked him to do that if He didn't know ahead of time and besides all that it never rained on the earth until then. all the people alive then must have thought he was crazy "what's a boat for?'. BUT ON THAT DAY THEY SOON FOUND OUT.

There was no Ark. The story is fiction.

Tim

[Ickisrulz]

There was no Ark. The story is fiction.

Tim

Cultures all over the world have flood stories that are similar to the Bible's account.

[Hickory]

Tim, you're trying and that's good. But the hairs of our heads are numbered by God and no sparrow falls without his knowledge. Meaning NOTHING that happens anywhere at all escapes his notice.

In our limited ability to grasp the magnitude of God, he has chosen to use words we can understand. His Bible uses words and expressions to show us he understands where we are and how we think. Thus we see that Jesus is "a solid rock, the rock of ages, a cornerstone, a lamb, a lion, the lily of the valley, living water", etc. None are literal expressions but all are true in the sense the writer intended but it's definitely not literal. That truth includes your reference to the expression of God's "regret".

It may shock some people but Jesus and biblical characters didn't speak in 1611 King James English. A (smart) 5th grade kid can read scripture and see what it says in English but no such kid can grasp much of what it means.

So, don't get too tied up in precisely what is written in every verse of scripture. Instead, put it all together and pray for spiritual guidance. Seek to understand what the words mean, i.e., what the real message is. That's not always child-like easy but stick with the point of the Biblical message as best you can. Avoid distracting and pointless red herrings and you'll do okay.

Bingo!
I couldn't have said it better.

[6bg6ga]

Cultures all over the world have flood stories that are similar to the Bible's account.

They also have stories of werewolves and vampires. Does that make them true also? Ever considered the logic and ramifications of the said boat? Two of every species? There simply wouldn't be enough room on the Ark for two of every species. It makes a feel good bed time story but nothing else.

[6bg6ga]

Cultures all over the world have flood stories that are similar to the Bible's account.

Its easy to understand. The earth changed pole positions which caused a flood. The earth is due in the future to do the exact same thing. North has already changed by a few degrees thus we are starting the slow process once again. Another one of God's floods as depicted by a bunch of uneducated people? The earth's flat too as thought of hundreds of years ago. Its amazing what people come up with when logic is thrown out the window.

[dverna]

IMHO, it is those who believe in the inerrancy of the Bible that cause their own problems. If the Bible is "perfect", then it is easy...very easy...to find those "red herrings" and justify the Word is not true/complete or open to "interpertation". Many Evangelicals deal with that by being closed minded, and it is very common for most of them to dismiss science and view science as "the enemy".

My Pastor believes the universe is 6-8000 years old. He bases this on his interpreation of the Bible...it is inerrant. He is not a fool. He choses to ignore science as it does not fit his views. Yet, because of his beliefs, he will come accross as a fool; and will be ignored by those who do not know him. Sad because he has a lot to offer in his teachings.

Look at the Bible in its entirety.

For those of you who are atheists and agnostics, do not let rabid and ignorant bible thumpers be the reason you do not accept God. They are NOT perfect in their understanding of scripture even though some think they are.

[a danl]

There was no Ark. The story is fiction.

Tim

fiction huh? so where did you get all your perfect truthful information from. tell me tim, what are you going to do when the lord comes for his people and you are left behind? you seem to know so much about god , what you gonna go to then?

[Ickisrulz]

They also have stories of werewolves and vampires. Does that make them true also? Ever considered the logic and ramifications of the said boat? Two of every species? There simply wouldn't be enough room on the Ark for two of every species. It makes a feel good bed time story but nothing else.

Much can be cleared up if we realize the flood might have been localized--where all the people were at that time. This would make the logistics much easier for Noah and his family.

[Ickisrulz]

Its easy to understand. The earth changed pole positions which caused a flood. The earth is due in the future to do the exact same thing. North has already changed by a few degrees thus we are starting the slow process once again. Another one of God's floods as depicted by a bunch of uneducated people? The earth's flat too as thought of hundreds of years ago. Its amazing what people come up with when logic is thrown out the window.

I don't know about your explanation, but I would say a common source for the flood story (i.e., it really happened) would account for different cultures having similar stories.

[Ickisrulz]

IMHO, it is those who believe in the inerrancy of the Bible that cause their own problems. If the Bible is "perfect", then it is easy...very easy...to find those "red herrings" and justify the Word is not true/complete or open to "interpertation". Many Evangelicals deal with that by being closed minded, and it is very common for most of them to dismiss science and view science as "the enemy".

My Pastor believes the universe is 6-8000 years old. He bases this on his interpreation of the Bible...it is inerrant. He is not a fool. He choses to ignore science as it does not fit his views. Yet, because of his beliefs, he will come accross as a fool; and will be ignored by those who do not know him. Sad because he has a lot to offer in his teachings.

Look at the Bible in its entirety.

For those of you who are atheists and agnostics, do not let rabid and ignorant bible thumpers be the reason you do not accept God. They are NOT perfect in their understanding of scripture even though some think they are.

I'll just point out that the Bible doesn't claim the earth is 8,000 years old. You have gotta know what is in the Bible and also what it doesn't say.

[a danl]

there is a verse in the NT that says the world was created "as of old" . when trying to figure the age of the world from the beginning a bible teacher will teach what he/she believes meaning they go by names recorded / age of same gereration after gereration , etc. and compile it to about the figure 6 to 8 thousand years. the bible itself does not give an age because to me it's a question that cannot be answered , so those things i leave to the Lord. remember this "darwin's evolution" has not been proved it is only a theory .

[Snow ninja]

IMHO The forum should have been named "Deep Christian Theology" That’s the problem, no one ever wants to have a discussion. You should call it the Theological Echo Chamber.

[dtknowles]

Cultures all over the world have flood stories that are similar to the Bible's account.

I did not say there was no flood, I said there was no Ark. The fact that Cultures all over the world have flood stories put lie to the Biblical account of the flood killed everyone but Noah's family. Anyway the idea that the flood would have wiped out the people who lived high in the Andes and Himalayas is just preposterous as is the idea that the Southeast Asians were descended from Noah.

Even if Noah built an ark 10,000 years before the oldest known ship that was still 30,000 years after East Asians diverged from Caucasians.

Tim

[JohnChrysostom]

Theism in a nutshell demotes God to a pagan demi god, it's an empowerment scam for people with serious daddy issues who border on atheism but want the false social "one up" of believing in something as opposed to their peers who believe in nothing and since theism is just a generic version of hindiusm basically it gives a place for intellectual fence sitters to virtue signal,entertain moral relativism and mock God from without adhering to anything. it's religion for hipsters, leftwingers, liberals & attracts people who are rebellious and ego driven who usually don't want to be accountable & are pissed off at the only real God. My generation watched that idiotic community implode along with Atheist, feminists & Newage cults that have a lot of cross over. hahaha ~ from a Far Right Christian

[Blackwater]

Dverna, I sincerely don't mean to put you or your rasoning down, but to me, this is the kind of question that's akin to "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin." The only real answer to it is "We don't know." We are often too reluctant to say "I don't know," and merely leave such questions and answers to God or Christ, and focus our minds and hearts on questions we CAN find real answers to. And too, often these types of questions only serve to instigate argument and dissensions that serve nobody but the Evil One.

Honestly, I applaud your sincere efforts to know the Lord, but some avenues are simply slums that lead to nowhere, and I think this kind of question is one of those. Keep searching and learning. You're headed to a wonderful and soul satisfying place.

[dverna]

I'll just point out that the Bible doesn't claim the earth is 8,000 years old. You have gotta know what is in the Bible and also what it doesn't say.

That is the problem. My pastor believes in the New Earth view because he believes the universe was created in six 24 hr days and the chronological history of the descendants of Adam and Eve. He is as certain of that as I am that man and dinosaurs did not coexist.

This makes me prone to question his conclusion on other things when I believe he is wrong on something so simple. I doubt I am alone in these feelings. By insisting the Bible is inerrant and that Genesis takes place over six 24hr days...my pastor has no wiggle room. If he could accept that God was not constrained to our definition of a day, it would open his now firmly closed mind.

[1hole]

If God knows our free will choices before we make them, does that mean we are destined to make wise or foolish choices from the beginning of time. In essence, our free will Choices are preordained and known by God?
... We cannot take a path different than what God expects?

God only corrects our paths when He sees the need to do so and none of us feel any compulsion when that happens. Otherwise we are quite free to do as we wish and that's most of the time. For Him to know or do less makes Him less than God and for Him to do more makes us puppets; neither of those ideas are true.

Humans can hardly understand it but God exists outside of time and space so, in His eyes, everything is right here and right now. He certainly knows our every move before we were born but presuming that if God simply knows what we are going to do demands that it's His fault when we do bad things does not logically follow. At the bottom line, we are responsible for ourselves.

[dtknowles]

God only corrects our paths when He sees the need to do so and none of us feel any compulsion when that happens. Otherwise we are quite free to do as we wish and that's most of the time. For Him to know or do less makes Him less than God and for Him to do more makes us puppets; neither of those ideas are true.

Humans can hardly understand it but God exists outside of time and space so, in His eyes, everything is right here and right now. He certainly knows our every move before we were born but presuming that if God simply knows what we are going to do demands that it's His fault when we do bad things does not logically follow. At the bottom line, we are responsible for ourselves.

You know all this how? Seems like you are the one making things up.

Tim

[dtknowles]

Theism in a nutshell demotes God to a pagan demi god, it's an empowerment scam for people with serious daddy issues who border on atheism but want the false social "one up" of believing in something as opposed to their peers who believe in nothing and since theism is just a generic version of hindiusm basically it gives a place for intellectual fence sitters to virtue signal,entertain moral relativism and mock God from without adhering to anything. it's religion for hipsters, leftwingers, liberals & attracts people who are rebellious and ego driven who usually don't want to be accountable & are pissed off at the only real God. My generation watched that idiotic community implode along with Atheist, feminists & Newage cults that have a lot of cross over. hahaha ~ from a Far Right Christian

Which kind of Theism are you talking about. Christians are Theists, some are not even MonoTheists, they believe in a God comprised of three parts.

When you say Theists what group are you talking about. Not all Theists believe the same thing.

Tim

[dtknowles]

Much can be cleared up if we realize the flood might have been localized--where all the people were at that time. This would make the logistics much easier for Noah and his family.

People had spread across the world millennia before Noah.

Tim

[Ickisrulz]

That is the problem. My pastor believes in the New Earth view because he believes the universe was created in six 24 hr days and the chronological history of the descendants of Adam and Eve. He is as certain of that as I am that man and dinosaurs did not coexist.

This makes me prone to question his conclusion on other things when I believe he is wrong on something so simple. I doubt I am alone in these feelings. By insisting the Bible is inerrant and that Genesis takes place over six 24hr days...my pastor has no wiggle room. If he could accept that God was not constrained to our definition of a day, it would open his now firmly closed mind.

Have you read about the behemoth in the Book of Job? The description sure sounds like a dinosaur to me.

I doubt you'll find any teacher you will agree with 100% and often you will find a bit of wacky theology tucked away in most peoples' beliefs. You have to sort out the good stuff from the questionable material. The only way you can do this is through independent study to learn what the Bible actually says. It's not an easy or fast process.

[Ickisrulz]

People had spread across the world millennia before Noah.

Tim

No kidding? You have a proven date of when Noah was alive?

[dtknowles]

No kidding? You have a proven date of when Noah was alive?

The earliest would be related to the technology needed to make the Ark.

Tim

This is from a earlier post.

Cultures all over the world have flood stories that are similar to the Bible's account.
I did not say there was no flood, I said there was no Ark. The fact that Cultures all over the world have flood stories put lie to the Biblical account of the flood killed everyone but Noah's family. Anyway the idea that the flood would have wiped out the people who lived high in the Andes and Himalayas is just preposterous as is the idea that the Southeast Asians were descended from Noah.

Even if Noah built an ark 10,000 years before the oldest known ship that was still 30,000 years after East Asians diverged from Caucasians.

Tim

[dverna]

Have you read about the behemoth in the Book of Job? The description sure sounds like a dinosaur to me.

I doubt you'll find any teacher you will agree with 100% and often you will find a bit of wacky theology tucked away in most peoples' beliefs. You have to sort out the good stuff from the questionable material. The only way you can do this is through independent study to learn what the Bible actually says. It's not an easy or fast process.

Yes I read about the behemoth jn Job. Do not know what to make of it with assurance. I doubt that thousands or millions of dinosaurs roamed the earth with early man, or dinosaurs would have had a little more "press" in the bible than snakes, lions and bears. And the fossil remains tell a different story...there I go putting science into the mix LOL.

And you are right about needing to pick and choose. My pastor delivers sermons that make me think so I find a lot of value in them. I do not have to agree with 100% of his thoughts to benefit from the 90% that help me.

[Ickisrulz]

The earliest would be related to the technology needed to make the Ark.

Tim

This is from a earlier post.

Cultures all over the world have flood stories that are similar to the Bible's account.
I did not say there was no flood, I said there was no Ark. The fact that Cultures all over the world have flood stories put lie to the Biblical account of the flood killed everyone but Noah's family. Anyway the idea that the flood would have wiped out the people who lived high in the Andes and Himalayas is just preposterous as is the idea that the Southeast Asians were descended from Noah.

Even if Noah built an ark 10,000 years before the oldest known ship that was still 30,000 years after East Asians diverged from Caucasians.

Tim

When I was a kid I visited Sea World (30+years ago). During the orca show, the narrator gave the audience details about how the orca evolved. Then he said, "We don't know if the orca sleeps." I remembering thinking, "How can they know all about the evolutionary history of an animal and not know if it sleeps?" I was convinced at that point that scientists don't know as much as they'd like us to think they know. It is my judgement that this is especially true when dealing with subjects such as evolution and astrophysics (i.e., where theories cannot be tested). What they present as facts are guesses needed to fill in the blanks. I will not let "science" dictate my beliefs.

BTW, I know what science now believes about these animals shutting down half their brain at a time.

[Ickisrulz]

Yes I read about the behemoth jn Job. Do not know what to make of it with assurance. I doubt that thousands or millions of dinosaurs roamed the earth with early man, or dinosaurs would have had a little more "press" in the bible than snakes, lions and bears. And the fossil remains tell a different story...there I go putting science into the mix LOL.

And you are right about needing to pick and choose. My pastor delivers sermons that make me think so I find a lot of value in them. I do not have to agree with 100% of his thoughts to benefit from the 90% that help me.

I saw a program years ago that was in search of real life dragons. They pointed out that many cultures had dragon myths or illustrations of people with dragon-like creatures. Their conclusion was that a creature like this might have actually co-existed with man.

Job is the oldest book of the Bible. You do not see a behemoth mentioned in any other book. It's a mystery that is fun to think about, but nothing can be concluded.

I think the age of the dinosaurs began and ended before God created man (as told in Genesis). As you know, I am persuaded that if we knew the history of the earth before Genesis 1:1, the evidence suggested by the fossil record would make sense. But we don't. God seems to always leave a little room for doubt.

[dtknowles]

When I was a kid I visited Sea World (30+years ago). During the orca show, the narrator gave the audience details about how the orca evolved. Then he said, "We don't know if the orca sleeps." I remembering thinking, "How can they know all about the evolutionary history of an animal and not know if it sleeps?" I was convinced at that point that scientists don't know as much as they'd like us to think they know. It is my judgement that this is especially true when dealing with subjects such as evolution and astrophysics (i.e., where theories cannot be tested). What they present as facts are guesses needed to fill in the blanks. I will not let "science" dictate my beliefs.

BTW, I know what science now believes about these animals shutting down half their brain at a time.

I let nothing dictate my beliefs, I form my beliefs based on the weight of the evidence. We know almost nothing for certain but like a jury at a trial. I look at the evidence and make my best judgement. I neither disregard the Bible (or other books) not do I disregard science. I judge them based on their providence.


In this example, I used big round numbers.

"Even if Noah built an ark 10,000 years before the oldest known ship that was still 30,000 years after East Asians diverged from Caucasians."

To show that even if the scientists got it wrong by tens of thousands of years the East Asians would not have descended from Noah.

Some things are more easily believed than others and the harder they are to believe the better the evidence needs to be.

Tim

[Blackwater]

Amen, Ickisrulz! The mysteries make the reading and consideration of the scriptures so much more interesting and perplexing, keeping us humble and in our proper place with respect to God and Christ. I am aways amazed and gently prodded to keep reading, and considering what's written. Maybe it's "bait," put there to keep us within our proper perspective as we read the scriptures? I personally have no problem being perplexed by some passages. After all, He is God and we're just mere mortals, struggling to understand, and get fleeting glimpses of God's works and wisdom that He's given to us to contemplate. We're to contemplate the scriptures, NOT "swallow them whole" as Abe Lincoln said. We'll always have questions to our dying day - things that we don't fully understand, but want to. That's just the way it is, and it's part of what makes gathering together to discuss such matters that keeps us learning and growing. I don't think that's a bad thing. Mortal man will never truly understand God, but we can understand, at least generally, His nature and intent, and at least some of His wisdom. He left it there in the Bible so we could do that, but it takes, as Ick says, a lifetime, and even then we'll still have some questions left. What we CAN glean from it, and our discussions and considerations of the content, is sufficient to our purposes. After all, the esssence and essentials are very simple. Even my young Down's syndrome cousin "gets" it! And I'm just grateful for what He has revealed to me in my own perusings and study. When one has to work for something, we appreciate it so much more!

[Ickisrulz]

I let nothing dictate my beliefs, I form my beliefs based on the weight of the evidence. We know almost nothing for certain but like a jury at a trial. I look at the evidence and make my best judgement. I neither disregard the Bible (or other books) not do I disregard science. I judge them based on their providence.


In this example, I used big round numbers.

"Even if Noah built an ark 10,000 years before the oldest known ship that was still 30,000 years after East Asians diverged from Caucasians."

To show that even if the scientists got it wrong by tens of thousands of years the East Asians would not have descended from Noah.

Some things are more easily believed than others and the harder they are to believe the better the evidence needs to be.

Tim

Despite contemporary shipbuilding technology, it is possible that God instructed Noah on how to construct a large rectangular cube that would float. Do you discount the miraculous?

[dtknowles]

……...As you know, I am persuaded that if we knew the history of the earth before Genesis 1:1, the evidence suggested by the fossil record would make sense. But we don't. God seems to always leave a little room for doubt.

I don't believe that there is any history of the Earth before Genesis 1:1. I believe that Genesis 1:1 describes the Big Bang.

Genesis 1:2 describes the chaos that was the universe between the time of the Big Bang and the formation of the first galaxies.

Genesis 1:3 this could actually be the description of the Big Bang and Genesis 1:1 and 1:2 could be the conditions before the Big Bang but don't believe in a before the Big Bang. That would mean Genesis 1:3 is the first light from the Galaxies before the Stars and Planets were formed.

Genesis 1:4 is clear the heavenly bodies as we know them today are formed.

Genesis 1:5 is the Earth rotating on its axis as it travels around the Sun that creates days and nights.

Genesis 1:6-10 is the Earth surface separating into Air, Land and Sea.

Genesis 1:11-15 is the Earth becoming fertile and the beginnings of life.

Genesis 1:16-19 seems to get things out of order as current science has the Sun, Moon and Stars preceeding the origin of life on Earth. These things were really established back in Genesis 1:4-5.

Genesis 1:20-25 is the rise of animals, the first animals, the animals before Dinosaurs and all the animals that came before the rise of Modern Humans (Homo Sapiens Sapiens.)

Genesis 1:26-30 is the rise of Modern Humans and Human's domination of everything on the planet.

Here we are today.

Tim

[1hole]

...I saw a program years ago that was in search of real life dragons. They pointed out that many cultures had dragon myths or illustrations of people with dragon-like creatures. ....

I think the age of the dinosaurs began and ended before God created man (as told in Genesis). As you know, I am persuaded that if we knew the history of the earth before Genesis 1:1, the evidence suggested by the fossil record would make sense.

That's what I had always assumed. Then, in a solid rock creek bed in Texas, fossilised dynosaur tracks were found (and photographed) with human footprints over laying those of the big lizard so I no longer assume that! (In that, I have also learned that God does have a sense of humor.)

The Big Bang may have happened but astronomers have well proven it's NOT the starting point of the universe as we know it. (Again proving God does play with pompous scientists!)

[dtknowles]

That's what I had always assumed. Then, in a solid rock creek bed in Texas, fossilised dynosaur tracks were found (and photographed) with human footprints over laying those of the big lizard so I no longer assume that! (In that, I have also learned that God does have a sense of humor.)

The Big Bang may have happened but astronomers have well proven it's NOT the starting point of the universe as we know it. (Again proving God does play with pompous scientists!)

You care to provide reference for these assertions?

Tim

[1hole]

You care to provide reference for these assertions?

Tim

I have a couple of books (with photos) for my "assertions" but I have a LOT of (poorly organized) books so I'm not going to search for them; you wouldn't have copies in your library anyway. But, if you actually want to confirm that I didn't make it up, just go to Youtube and put DINOSAUR + HUMAN TRACKS IN TEXAS in the search line.

[dtknowles]

I have a couple of books (with photos) for my "assertions" but I have a LOT of (poorly organized) books so I'm not going to search for them; you wouldn't have copies in your library anyway. But, if you actually want to confirm that I didn't make it up, just go to Youtube and put DINOSAUR + HUMAN TRACKS IN TEXAS in the search line.

If you believe that the Paluxy River tracks are evidence of Humans living in the time of dinosaur's I would move to exclude you from a jury if I was in court. The preponderance of evidence is those are not human tracks.

This quote from you is also not true. "The Big Bang may have happened but astronomers have well proven it's NOT the starting point of the universe as we know it." It is still a hypothesis that is being debated and in my Genesis time line I address both cases but I currently support the case that the Big Bang was the beginning of the Universe but have an open mind on the subject.


Tim

[Blackwater]

Even if it IS a human track, who's to say that it's impossible for the dinosaur track to have softened, maybe due to a thundering rain, and then a human came along and left HIS track over the already age-old dinosaur track???? God does indeed, I think, give us mysteries that we cannot solve. Perhaps it's just to keep us humble, and reverent???

[1hole]

Even if it IS a human track, who's to say that it's impossible for the dinosaur track to have softened, maybe due to a thundering rain, and then a human came along and left HIS track over the already age-old dinosaur track????

Black, the argument against that is the "experts" tell us the big lizards were extinct thousands of years before man arrived. But, if the original lizard tracks were laid that long before someone hobbled over them it seems the older muddy tracks would have been washed away long before any human got there. ???

It's interesting enough to be mentioned that since the discovery of those solid stone man-over-dinosoar tracks they have been repeatedly vandalized with hammers, presumably by "innerlecshul scientists" who don't want their cages rattled by physical evidence and dumm ol' Christians laughing. But, life can be hell for those who sneer at God!

As a side issue, most of our universe seems to extend from a central point in space and that was the foundation of the Big Bang. But, for the Bang to be true required:

(1) The universe must have been blown up and flying directly away from the site of the Bang in straight lines. Astronomers now know that whole galaxies are moving at right angle to most others!

(2) The rate of universe expansion had to be slowing down as the gravitational pull of all mass acting on the universe as a whole; instead, they found that the rate of expansion is still accelerating!

Therefore, the Big Bang delusion has turned brown and even the dummist of us knows that everything brown is not chocolate.

God is just so unfair to pompous scientists! :)

[dtknowles]

Black, the argument against that is the "experts" tell us the big lizards were extinct thousands of years before man arrived. But, if the original lizard tracks were laid that long before someone hobbled over them it seems the older muddy tracks would have been washed away long before any human got there. ???

It's interesting enough to be mentioned that since the discovery of those solid stone man-over-dinosoar tracks they have been repeatedly vandalized with hammers, presumably by "innerlecshul scientists" who don't want their cages rattled by physical evidence and dumm ol' Christians laughing. But, life can be hell for those who sneer at God!

As a side issue, most of our universe seems to extend from a central point in space and that was the foundation of the Big Bang. But, for the Bang to be true required:

(1) The universe must have been blown up and flying directly away from the site of the Bang in straight lines. Astronomers now know that whole galaxies are moving at right angle to most others!

(2) The rate of universe expansion had to be slowing down as the gravitational pull of all mass acting on the universe as a whole; instead, they found that the rate of expansion is still accelerating!

Therefore, the Big Bang delusion has turned brown and even the dummist of us knows that everything brown is not chocolate.

God is just so unfair to pompous scientists! :)

The foot prints have been vandalized by people trying to make some of the dinosaur footprints look like human footprints. The tracks are most likely two different dinosaurs, one stalking the other, that is why there are two different foot prints. Some places in that string of tracks it is very clear that it is two sets of dinosaur tracks.

Almost nothing travels in straight lines even light is bent in its travels. Since almost everything in the universe travels in circles or spins or both it is natural that objects including galaxies would be traveling at 90 deg. to each other and even 180 degrees to each other as the orbit the site of the Big Bang. Galaxies also have collided with each other or interacted gravitationally changing their paths with some being turned back toward the center of the universe.

The universe is expanding? Here is some reading for those who really care about the current science regarding the expansion of the Universe.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expansion_of_the_universe

God is not unfair to scientists, God creates and scientists study. If there was nothing we don't know scientists would be out of a job.

Tim

[1hole]

"Open Theism" is just another name for the ancient doctrines of gnosticism that's been wandering around from the earliest days of Christianity. We mostly see it today under the labels of "Universal/Unitarian Churches" and "Christian Science" (which is neither Christian nor science).