Converting 1885 32RF to center fire

[b money]

I’m looking at buying an original 1905 dated Winchester model 1885 low wall in 32 rimfire, it is in sad shape and very little if any collector value remains. I’m looking at Reboring the barrel and moving the firing pin. My question is will the original low wall action handle something like a 357 maximum? I’m basically going to do what Larry potterfield did in his conversion videos(with a few improvements) just need to settle on a caliber and see if I can get the Donor rifle cheap enough

[Hickory]

I doubt that this black powder era 1886 would handle the pressure of the 357 maximum.

[pietro]

.

I may be in error, but IMO a vintage low wall with thin sides isn't the home for a .357 Max ( a .38 Special would be fine) - but would heartily suggest checking Frank DeHaas' (aka: Mr. Single-Shot) "Gunsmithing Idea Book" on his recommendations for the low wall.

https://www.scribd.com/document/56750765/Mr-Single-Shots

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51nJ5y2CC5L._SX258_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg

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[blackbahart]

seen the original low wall in 25-35 which is a 40k +psi and the 357 max runs apron 40 k also

[John Taylor]

I don't think the "original" low wall was 25-35 to start with. Low walls were chambered in pistol calibers, most likely 25-20.

[b money]

Ok I’m going to look over the suggested book today, would 357mag at 35k psi be better? Or any other recommendations. I’m pretty sure the bore is junk so it would have to be bored out. I guess I could also rebarrel it but I was trying to save money on the project while still having an 1885

[John Taylor]

You need to stay under 18,000 psi with your low wall. Cartridges that will work include 22 Long rifle ,45 Colt, 44-40, 38-40, 32-20, 25-20, 38 S&W, 32 S&W , 44 & 38 special. There may be some other that are low pressure.

[john.k]

Ive seen mentioned that WRA would re heatreat early blackpowder actions to make them suitable for smokeless conversion.Most likely the depth of case was increased ,possibly with a less hardness in the final draw.If the action is OK with a 45 at say 20kpsi,then simple geometry says a smaller base will take more pressure to produce the same loading.......And yes ,I have early low walls with the reciever walls battered and deformed from things like 219 zipper.

[blackbahart]

I should have clarified .I have seen a low wall that has been rechambered to 25-35 and its original cal on the barrel stamped 25 long with X's stamped over it and re stamped 25-35
. The owner did say it shoots fine .I have never shot it ,just looked at it and it is rechambered for the 25-35..

As you are correct it was not a factory 25-35

[John Taylor]

While a Stevens 44 is not as strong as the low wall I had one come in a few years back that had been a 25-20 and was re-chambered to 25-35. It came with two broken breach blocks, one had been welded back together. Wonder why someone would try to shoot it again after braking the first breach block. I made a new breach block out of 4140 and installed a liner to take it back to 25-20. On a low wall I have not seen a broken breach block but I have seen a cracked frame.
The Colt 45 SAAMI max pressure is 14,000 psi.

[Shawlerbrook]

Why not just convert it to one of the centerfire 32 pistol rounds ?

[b money]

Ok well I always thought 1885’s were made overly strong but I didn’t know they took old bp guns and converted them. I guess 4140 pre hard wasn’t around then either. if I do end up with it I will keep it to low psi cartridge. The rifling in the 32cal barrel is shot out and not worth using.

[Chill Wills]

Really, it is not a steel issue or a heat treatment issue. There are two 1885's The lowwall and the highwall. Highwall breach blocks are fully supported by the mortise and the lowwall's are cantilever. The metal is not weaker, there is just less of it in the most important places. The lowwall was designed to be a lighter, trimmer version of the big action and shoot the lesser cartridges.

[Green Frog]

Why not just convert it to one of the centerfire 32 pistol rounds ?

^^^ This ^^^

I like the original 32-20 chambering and I really like the 32 H&R (notice I didn't call it a "magnum" since factory loadings aren't!) I also like both the 25-20 SS and 25-20 WCF chambering, but I have seen a couple of factory SS examples that have had their receivers stretched by too-enthusiastic loadings. :-? If I were to go with a bigger bore, 38-40 and 44-40 would be the absolute biggest rounds I would even think of using. JMHO based on about 30 years of experience, observation and research, YMMV.

Froggie

[kodiak1]

Why not just convert it to one of the centerfire 32 pistol rounds ?
What I was thinking 32-20.

[john.k]

I believe the OP was hoping to get his 32rf barrel rebored to 357,and so keep it semi original.

[b money]

Yes as stated earlier the bore in the current 32cal barrel is completely toasted so I would have to rebore it if I was to do anything. Trust me if I could do a 32-20 that would be ideal. But I’ve been doing some pricing and I think it would be money better spent if I found a decent newer production highwall namely the BPCR model

[John Taylor]

You could have a liner installed for 32-20. The extractor would need to be cut for the larger rim, firing pin moved to center.

[marlinman93]

Ok well I always thought 1885’s were made overly strong but I didn’t know they took old bp guns and converted them. I guess 4140 pre hard wasn’t around then either. if I do end up with it I will keep it to low psi cartridge. The rifling in the 32cal barrel is shot out and not worth using.

Original 1885's in the High Wall version were made extremely strong, and they've been proven to hold up to a lot of modern higher pressure cartridges over many decades. But the difference between an 1885 High Wall and Low Wall is day and night difference.
If I was doing the Low Wall my choice would be a traditional caliber they were offered in, even if condition isn't collector grade on the gun. The .32-20 would be my choice, and I'd do the liner John Taylor mentioned instead of a rebore. A barrel with a modern steel liner is a bit stronger than a rebored BP era soft steel barrel. Plus the .32-20 is easy to find brass for, easy to reload, and just a great cartridge in the 1885 to shoot.

[oldred]

Ive seen mentioned that WRA would re heatreat early blackpowder actions to make them suitable for smokeless conversion.Most likely the depth of case was increased ,possibly with a less hardness in the final draw.If the action is OK with a 45 at say 20kpsi,then simple geometry says a smaller base will take more pressure to produce the same loading.......And yes ,I have early low walls with the reciever walls battered and deformed from things like 219 zipper.

Heat treating doesn't work that way. Besides heat treating comes in two flavors, through hardening and case hardening with the old rifles being made of early grades of weaker steel (with BP rifles usually being even weaker) and being case hardened to make them hard on the surface to prevent wear, not to make them stronger. No amount of heat treating is going to make this metal stronger, harder and more brittle maybe but not stronger and then only the surface is affected. Modern through hardening steels can be heat treated to make them stronger sometimes (in a sense anyway) but this is determined by what their original heat treat condition was to start with. Annealed (soft condition) alloy steels can be heat treated to increase both strength and hardness but in most cases it's a trade-off between hardness/wear resistance and ultimate strength giving up some of one for the other, heat treating temperatures/methods being determined by the desired hardness vs ultimate strength. On those old steels steels no amount of heat treating or depth of case is going to make them stronger.

As a note that time period for the rifle being discussed here was when alloy steels and heat treating of them was in it's infancy and little was known compared to today, a lot of what they did is now known to be wrong. An example is the early '03 Springfield rifle and the early heat treating methods and steel alloys of the time, a lot of disagreement on whether or not the early improperly heat treated rifles are dangerous or not but whether or not they are safe it's not in dispute that they were (some of them anyway) much harder than they were meant to be. The early 1885 Low Walls were not made from even these early Nickle steels as they were called so heat treating consisted only of carbon packing and quenching to produce a hard surface a few thousandths thick but nothing was added to the strength by the process and no modern heat treat will make it stronger either.

Of course even the early Low Walls were not exactly a weak action! They are plenty strong for what they were meant for and there are some really good cartridges that are perfectly safe in them, unfortunately the 357 max is NOT one of them! Even if the pressures were held to 38 special, even a bit higher should be safe, such a chamber would just be inviting disaster at some point in time since we have no way of knowing where a rifle will eventually end up and who might chamber full charge 357 Max cartridges!

[AntiqueSledMan]

Not sure where I found this, Enjoy.

The lists below show all of the various cartridges that were factory chambered, but not necessarily a standard caliber. The below lists are also subject to frequent minor change as I continue to complete additional research, but they are relatively close. For some of the calibers (most specifically the 22 Short and Long R.), the actual production numbers are a lot higher when all of the guns in the 110,000 - 140,000 serial number range are included {1910 – 1919}.

Model 1885 Rimfire cartridges (with number made before serial number 110,000):{1885 - 1910}

22 BBC (Cap) (4)
22 CAL. R.F. XL (323)
22 LONG (8,885)
22 LONG R. (4,165)
22 SHORT (16,042)
22 W.R.F. (1,584)
22 Win Auto (2)
25 R.F. (Stevens) (422)
30 LONG (4)
32 Extra Long (9)
32 LONG (3,254)
32 SHORT (3,878)
38 Extra Long (8)
38 LONG (27)
38 SHORT (26)
44 Henry (4)
44 LONG (1)

Model 1885 Centerfire cartridges (with number made before serial number 110,000):{1885 - 1910}

22 Stevens {22-15-60} (195)
22 W.C.F. (8,875)
236 USN {6mm Lee Navy} (25)
25-20 S.S. {Single Shot} (7460)
25 W.C.F. or 25-20 W.C.F. (250 est.)
25-21 {Stevens} (4)
25-25 {Stevens} (10)
25-35 W.C.F. (63)
30 U.S. or 30 ARMY (1,000 est.)
30 W.C.F. (105)
30 GOVT. 1906. (40 est.)
303 BRITISH (22)
32 SHORT {Colt} (1)
32 LONG {Colt} (152)
32 Ballard Extra Long (46)
32 W.C.F. (12,896)
32 IDEAL (233)
32-40 (11,281)
32-40 ES (6)
32 W.S. {Win. Special} (20 est.)
33 W.C.F. (7 est.)
35 S.L. (2)
35 W.C.F. (15 est.)
38 LONG {Colt} (31)
38 BALLARD EX {Extra Long} (5)
38 W.C.F. (2,889)
38-55 (7,603)
38-56 W.C.F. (610)
38-70 {Winchester} (5)
38-72 W.C.F. (5)
38 EX. {38-90 Winchester Exp.} (379)
401 S.L. (3)
40-50 SHARPS STR. or 40-50 S.S. (38)
40-50 S.N. {Sharps Necked} (4)
40-60 W.C.F. (1,464)
40-60 MAR. {Marlin} (6)
40-65 W.C.F. (518)
40-70 BALLARD or 40-70 BAL. (339)
40-70 SHARPS STR. or 40-70 S.S. (804)
40-70 S.N. {Sharps Necked} (4)
40-70 W.C.F. (145)
40-82 W.C.F. (1,733)
40-90 BALLARD or 40-90 BAL. (104)
40-90 SHARPS STR. or 40-90 S.S. (934)
40-90 S.N. {Sharps Necked} {2 5/8”} (2)
40 EX. {40-110 Winchester Exp.} (194)
405 W.C.F. (34)
43 Spanish (7)
44 Comblain (2)
44-60 Winchester (2)
44 W.C.F. (3,512)
45-60 W.C.F. (191)
45-70 GOV’T. (2,966)
45-70 SHARPS STR. (470)
45-75 W.C.F. (91)
45-90 W.C.F. (927)
45 EX. (45-125 Win Exp.) (686)
45 ELEY or 45 ELEY EX. (396)
45 SHARPS 2 4/10” (9)
45 SHARPS 2 6/10” (17)
45 SHARPS 2 3/4” (4)
45 SHARPS 2 7/8” (42)
45 SHARPS 3 1/4” (26)
50 ELEY or 50 ELEY EX. (527)
50-90 SHARPS (3)
50-95 W.C.F. (292)
50-110 EX. (70 est.)
577 ELEY (9)
7x57mm Mauser (3 experimental)
20 GA. (550 est.)
28 GA. (1)

The High-Wall could be chambered for all available cartridges. The Low-Wall however, was quite limited as to which Centerfire cartridges it was available in (all Rimfire cartridges could be ordered in the Low-Wall). Centerfire was limited to the following;
22 Stevens {22-15-60}
22 W.C.F.
25-20 S.S. {Single Shot}
25 W.C.F. or 25-20 W.C.F.
25-21 {Stevens}
25-25 {Stevens}
32 SHORT {Colt}
32 LONG {Colt}
32 W.C.F. or 32-20 W.C.F.
32 IDEAL
38 LONG
38 W.C.F. or 38-40 W.C.F.
44 W.C.F. or 44-40 W.C.F.

AntiqueSledMan.

[uscra112]

Oldred wrote what I would have if he hadn't.

[Eddie Southgate]

I'd listen to what John Taylor said . I'd do one in .38 special if it would rebore to that otherwise I would do a .32 S&W Long .

[uscra112]

BTW changing from rimfire to centerfire can be just a matter of making a new link to reposition the breechblock as the action is closed. However, I'd do it by converting it to a Mann-Niedner firing pin, which gains you the more desirable small firing pin tip in the bargain.

My choice of cartridge would always be the .32-20.

[Chill Wills]

Thanks sled man! I have seen that list somewhere myself. Maybe it is within the Winchester Collector assoc. membership info. I let my membership drop and maybe need to join again.

That answers a question for me.
BTW- I agree, the 32WCF is never a bad choice!
I want to use an old beat-up low-wall action I have to build a 25-20 WCF and was not sure it was among the Okay list. The 25-20WCF started out as BP round but now there is info on fast smokeless loads. Future owners were my concern.

[b money]

Thanks everyone I’m calling today to see what the guy might do on a price for the old girl. We will see.

[Kev18]

Here, Larry Potterfield did it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eUnxFN0uvCs

[AntiqueSledMan]

Great video.
I have a Uberti Low Wall chambered in 30-30, wish it was 32-40.
I also have an original High Wall chambered in 32-20 WCF, fun little rifle.
I don't think you'd have to change the bore with 32-20.
Of course back in the day,
Stevens Arms would have bored it to 8mm & chambered it in 32 Ideal.
Would be a neat caliber but a little tough to get brass for.
Starline is producing 32-20, as is Remington & Winchester so brass wouldn't be an issue.

AntiqueSledMan.

[uscra112]

Not too hard to make .32 Ideal brass from 5.6x50R. Or .357 Max brass, although the end result ends up being a few thou short. The real problem is dies. They can be bought, but not cheaply.