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redhawk44
11-09-2008, 01:29 PM
Does anyone here sell a RB in .729-732" diameter?

If so, how much?

Johnch
11-09-2008, 03:59 PM
If no one here dose
I just looked to be sure
Track of the wolf (http://trackofthewolf.com/(S(nh4cwz55pm3lds2zagdjlu55))/categories/tableList.aspx?catId=2&subId=25&styleId=58&PageSize=25&Page=3) has .735

John

longbow
11-09-2008, 04:50 PM
The 0.735" RB's from Track Of The Wolf are likely pure lead if that is a consideration. For smoothbore it doesn't really matter but for a rifled barrel it may.

I cast my own from range scrap or wheelweights.

If you only want a few to try I may be able to send some. Let me know and maybe we can work something out. I am in Canada so the border is a bit of an issue.

Longbow

redhawk44
11-09-2008, 05:20 PM
Thanks, I wanna try some RB loads in the rifled gun.

mooman76
11-09-2008, 05:23 PM
You might check with Bullshop. His thing is at the bottom of the page. He does all kinds of bullets.

longbow
11-09-2008, 11:33 PM
redhawk44:

If you are only looking for a dozen or so I can probably accomodate you. I don't mind casting a few for you if you want to pay shipping. As a warning, I shipped about 2 dozen shotgun slugs to a friend in New Jersey a while ago and shipping was $20.00 CDN.

I don't know if you have read the posts on round balls in 12 ga. If not you should go through them.

I have been using mainly smoothbore with a variety of slugs and round balls. In general the round balls give about the same or better accuracy at 50 yards as the various slugs do for me and my guns anyway. Some exceptions are:

- Brenneke
- AQ
- Rapine Foster

All of which did pretty well above average.

Rifled shotguns are a rarity in my neck of the woods but a friend picked up a used Remington 870 with 1:38 twist. I decided to try some 0.735" RB's in it and they did amazingly well. The first and only time out I managed 2" groups at 50 yards after being hammerd silly by recoil shootin other rounds before these. I'm pretty sure the gun would do better with a pilot that wasn't shell shocked. That was with open sites too.

I figured the 1:38 was way too fast for the RB which really wants about 1:110" but they did shoot well.

I was somewhat concerned about being 0.006" oversize but drove a ball through my smoothbore barrel with a mallet and rod to see how much force it took to swage the 0.006" off the ball. Not much was the answer. A light tap through the forcing cone and that was it, hand pressure took it the rest of the way.

I recovered one ball from the rifled gun and it shows a nice band around the equator with good rifling impression.

I used 38 grs. of Blue Dot, plastic gas seal, 1/2" hard card wad, RB, roll crimp, Fiocchi low base hull. Shouldn't be near max but recoil was so stout I would want to pressure test before using more powder.

missionary5155 has some good loads for 0.685" RB in a shotcup and turbo1889. There's lots of good stuff if you do a search.

Well, that turned out to be a lengthy response then didn't it? I guess I got rambling again ~ oops!

If you can't ge the 0.735" RB's more local and cheaper let me know. I don't mind casting and sending a dozen or so.

Longbow

waksupi
11-10-2008, 12:50 AM
For the price involved in shipping, why don't you just order a mold from Jeff Tanner?

redhawk44
11-10-2008, 09:44 AM
Longbow....thanks for the offer, but I have balls comming from that track of the wolf outfit.

My brother and I were experimenting with RB loads back in '00 and then I got into skeet shooting and I haven't done much of any other kind of shooting since.

When I left the "lab" so to speak, we were getting promising results with a 16 ga. ball in a shotcup wad. The thing is that we were using a 1-1/8 oz wad and putting enough corn meal under the ball to bring it up to the point that the petals just nicely went past the equator of the ball and roll crimped it in.

The cron meal was added so that the wad would stay centered behind the ball instead of trying to get around the ball and causing it to be thrown off in one direction or another when it exited the muzzle.

I have not even thought about this stuff since '00 but lately, reading this forum, my interest has been rekindled. If I remember right, we were using green dot, as it is appropriate for 1 oz to 1-1/8 oz loads in the 12 ga. Of course a full diameter ball will probably require a somewhat slower propellant.

longbow
11-10-2008, 10:25 AM
redhawk44:

You should read through missionar5155's posts. He uses 0.685" RB in a shotcup in his smoothbores with good success. I'm not sure if he has tried it in rifled barrel.

I think the fit would have to be pretty snug for the shotcup to grip the RB enough to give it a positive spin.

Like I said the 0.735" is about 0.006" oversize for my smoothbore but it pushed through the barrel pretty easy. The rifled gun I borrowed had an even tighter bore at about 0.727" groove. I didn't see any pressure signs with the load I used though.

I think if you are going with 0.735" RB you are best to use a lsow powder like Blue Dot, 4756 maybe 2400, Herco or some other for heavy shot loads as that initial swaging to bore size may cause a rapid pressure rise. Just speculation on my part but I think a faster powder would be more of a concern that way.

Also, I wouldn't be letting these get into any sort of choked gun ~ could be trouble.

Waksupi brings up a good point too. Jeff Tanners moulds look pretty good and they are quite reasonably priced.

Here is his site: http://www.jt-bullet-moulds.co.uk/moulds.htm

Longbow

redhawk44
11-11-2008, 08:55 AM
The balls I ordered are .690" because we came to the conclusion that 16 ga. balls were a little small....we will see.

Even if they don't get up to 1/38" spin, that is OK as that twist os too fast anyway.

When I first inquired about .732" balls, I was not aware of the choices that are readily available in today's market.

A .69 ball should weigh about 494 grains or just over 1-1/8 oz. if pure lead. I will be using it in a Savage 210 rifled gun and also a Mossberg turkey gun with the choke cut off the barrel.

The mossy will keep Ballistic products Dangerous game slugs inside of 4" at 100 yds, so I have a base line to compare to.

Wish us luck?

longbow
11-11-2008, 11:32 AM
While I haven't tried every shotcup on the market, So far I have found the 0.690" ball too big for those I have tried and shear petals even in cylinder bore.

I am not sure if there is a recommended "fit" for rifled gun but missionary5155 recommends no more than 0.003" over bore size for smoothbore (or tightest constriction if there is a choke). He uses 0.685" balls in shotcups. The 0.690" is only 0.005" larger but the shotcups I have used do not survive well. The fit is tighter than the 0.003" but I can push them through the barrel. The petals tend to fail though. Maybe more support required under the ball?

BPI lists loads for 0.690" RB in one of their shotcups so that would be a good choice to start.

Also, a friend in New Jersey said he had an old article about 0.662" RB in a thick petal (steel?) shotcup producing something like 1600 FPS and giving very good accuracy to 100 yards. So it can be done.

I have heard that the Federal shotcups are quite tough and I believe fairly thin so may be a good choice. I haven't tried them myself.

Anyway, I suggest getting a selection of shotcups and checking petal thickness so ball + petals = about 0.003" over groove size and try some lightish loads to see how they do. If accuracy is there and petals look good, then start increasing the load to see if and when you get stripping/skipping in the rifling.

A problem might be the very small bearing area so extrusion and failure of the shotcup petals. That's why I went the 0.735" RB route ~ no shotcup to worry about.

Anyway, I would be interested in your results so keep us posted. Good luck!

I am hoping to be shooting some of my AQ clones today so we'll see how that goes. These ones are 0.690" RB with attached basewad.

Longbow

redhawk44
11-11-2008, 11:57 AM
We noted some petal shearing even with the 16 ga. balls, but the shearing was only on one side of the ball.

This got us to thinking that the wad was trying to get around the ball on the way down the barrel and was pulling the petals in two on the opposite side.

this got us to thinking that if we put some corn meal under the ball, that would create a long enough section where the wad was filled with something (such as it is when filled with shot), that the problem would at lease be mitigated somewhat.

Accuracy improved, and no more petals torn in two........then I visited a skeet range, and all was lost.

Now, after having spend about 10K on skeet guns, and realizing that I am never going to be a AAA shooter, I have been ruminating on past pursuits...:-D

longbow
11-12-2008, 01:13 AM
I agree with your logic of the wad trying to get around the ball.

I've tried the ball in the shot cup and seen the bottom of the shotcup fail and wrinkled petals which tells me something is misaligned, sloppy or moving around too much.

It wouldn't surprise me to find out that either the petals are being pulled apart as you have commented or that due to the wad shifting there is uneven force on the ball pushing harder one way against the petal. Either way wrinkled or sheared petals are no good.

I've tried the cornmeal and hard card wads under the ball but still got the about the same results. Now for the most part I was using Win AA Red wads and they are fairly thick and quite soft so that may be a large part of my problem. A harder thinner petal might be more suitable but then since I have the 0.735" mould I really don't need to use a shotcup.

I got out today with my AQ clones made with 0.690" round balls. Not very good results. Accuracy was poor at about 6" to 8" at 50 yards and I found 1 basewad lying in the sand ~ it had parted company with the ball. I later found 2 balls without base wads attached. Not sure if they separated before or after impact but it looks like this method is a flop.

I have had pretty good results with these in the past but was getting inconsistencies in the basewad. I think I have solved that but I attached them differently this time. Back to the old method with the new basewad!

Longbow

missionary5155
11-13-2008, 05:37 AM
Good morning REDHAWK... Round Ball is alot of fun. I have read through all the above. There are so many wads out there now just experiment. I would Email/call (800# ) all the places you can and get the cup that fits with .003-.005 overbore. That is my general goal for each 12 gauge barrel I have played with. But maybe you can go a tighter fit ? I did my origonal testing using a Fox B 30 inch double. I reamed both barrels to .007 constriction on the ball / shotcup.. then .005 (best accuracy began) and stopped at .003 (best accuracy and no petal distortions). The origonal goal was a drop in LARGE croc SMASHER using the field loads available here. I also wanted a double rifle and that was my answer. Still have the barrels. I fired 3 rounds out of my newly purchased Mossy Rifled barrel just before I returned here. Looked real good... I do not have that realoding info here.. but I would think it was 32-33 gr. unique .685 RB Winchester Red wad. I would not load Unique any more than that... Blue Dot is probably MUCH safer. To increase compression in a cup you can wrap ball in Teflon tape.
I personally have NEVER loaded RB not seated on the wad base. I have not seen the wad damage you mention. If you want to use filler why not put it on top of the ball? The strongest part of the wad is the load bearing base so why move the load away from that ? I use folded crimp with the ball seated to the bottom of the cup and the crimp folded all the way down to the ball. I start this way with the load development and do not change. It may not look pretty but it works. That is my Mossy down here with Cylinder barrel attached.

Dixie Slugs
11-13-2008, 09:20 AM
If. and when, I get some time away from the shop and other projects we have going...I am going to play with a Russian design I saw for round ball loads. The Russian public has to use smoothbores and they did quite a big of designs for their big bears.
Anyone that has played with round ball loads understands the propblem on alignment....if the ball leaves the gun aligned...it will fly fairly straight out to around 100 yards. Another plus factor with smoothbore was written up by W.W. Greener.....additional velocity due to less sidewall friction.
The Russian design used a slightly undersize ball, held in alignment by two do-nut hard nitro wads...one on either side of the ball. As of yet, I have seen no testing in the States with this design...but it makes sense indeed. There is also a chance that the ball would be centered if an BPI X12X wad was used on either side of the ball. We did play with a hard cast Lee Key slug inside of a Federal
12S3 wad, with a 20 ga nitro under the slug. That wad does not have the ridges inside of the petals that seemed to cause petal been clipped off.
The biggest problem that is over looked, as with the new BPI sabot....is the setback that happens as pressure hits the plastic wad/sabot. The heavy ball/slug resist forward movemant and punches out the botton of the wad/sabot. Another problem arises with a under wad column that is too soft! We ran into that with out Tri-Ball loads before e switched to the orage wad were the ball fit tight in the rounded bottom of the wad. The solution is to get everything moving at the same time. That is way I think the Russian design has merit. W.W. Greener reportted excellent accuracy with very hard ball in smoothbore barrels of the day......but with true cylinder barrels that the ball was a true slip fit. it a setup like that....the ball has to stay aligned. High tower tests proved that a round ball falling free, did in fact fall straight indeed. So..it would seem that the solution is keeping the ball aligned as it passes through and out of the barrel.
Just some thoughts!
Regards, James

LqChrome
11-13-2008, 09:43 AM
As for shipping, the P.O.has what my wife (P.O.Clerk) calles a"shoe box"thats about as big as a shoe box that will ship anywhere for $8.95 up to 70 lbs. I recently recieved 2000 .451 230gr. RN boolits in one. Won"t do that again since taking up Casting boolits.Thanks for having me

miestro_jerry
11-14-2008, 01:39 AM
My letter carrier always wants a warning when I order lead. I get about 50 pounds in a flat rate box, plus I ship CBs in a flat rate box. This is a real value, something that you don't find very often these days.

Jerry

jh45gun
11-14-2008, 02:03 AM
From a friend that does a lot of round ball.

690" Round Ball. Good choices would be WAA12, WT12, 12S3. For a Modified through Full Choke, cut the petals off at the Equator of the ball. For Cylinder through Modified, use the wad as-is. (I know, I overlap chokes there. Modified will work both ways), I've been playing with additional modifications to wads. 8 Petals from 4 seems to get a quicker release

missionary5155
11-14-2008, 05:00 AM
If anyone is interested www.ch4d.com lists a .685 Round Ball (NEI) 470 grains ...

missionary5155
11-14-2008, 05:17 AM
Just looked... Dixie Gun Works still offers thier RB Moulds at .001 increments up to .850.. $55 a mold. Be sure to type MOULD I tried Mold every which configuration... Ya think a computer would just catch on after awhile.

longbow
11-14-2008, 09:03 PM
jh45gun:

What kind of accuracy is your friend getting?

So far I have not had good success with 0.690" RB in Winchester wads at all. The AA Red seems thick and soft and the others while thinner and harder didn't do it either.

Mostly I am getting petal sheariing even in cylinder bore and in several cases I had wad failure under the ball. A 16 ga. nitro card wad under the ball solved that but accuracy still wasn't there.

I haven't been using shotcups for a while but they do make life quicker and easier so maybe I should try a jig to get the petals all cut the same and give that another go. Also, I have read that the Federal wads are better for RB too (tougher plastic?). I'll see if I can pick some up. BPI lists a load for 0.690" in one of their shotcups too but I haven't tried that either.

Longbow

jh45gun
11-14-2008, 10:07 PM
If I remember right he was getting acceptabla accuracy or he would not mess with them and he got me interested in doing the roundball loads. I am going to get the 12S3 wads they are what I think he has had the best luck with by cutting the wad so the pedals just reach to the equator of the ball and then splitting each pedal so it mades 8 instead of 4.

longbow
11-15-2008, 12:55 PM
jh45gun:

You know what? I like round ball because it is quick and easy to cast and quick and easy to load, and I just plain like big 'ol round balls so I am going to go back and give this another try.

I have been getting pretty good accuracy from 0.662" RB's in a shotcup (patched to take up slop) and with 0.735" RB on hard card wad. I just haven't managed to get the 0.690" to perform but it is a nice size and weight an will fit through most chokes should that be an issue. You just don't want to try a 0.735" RB through a choke ~ at least not in my guns!

I think I will make up a jig for cutting petals all the same and maybe use a little cornmeal or COW to cushion under the ball.

I'll post results.

Thanks,
Longbow

longbow
11-15-2008, 02:12 PM
Okay then, I just went and checked my limited selection of shotcups for petal thickness.

Here's the results:

- WW AA Red: 0.026" to 0.031" with about 0.002" to 0.003" variance in a single shotcup (worst case)
- Pacific Verilite: 0.021" to 0.028" with about 0.003" to 0.004" variance in a single shotcup (worst case)
- WWAA12F114: 0.022" to 0.026" with about 0.002" to 0.003" variance in a single shotcup (worst case)
- Claybuster WAA12SL: 0.020" to 0.022" with about 0.001" variance in a single shotcup (worst case)

I checked several from each bag but of course different lots and maybe from different factories may be different.

From this very limited selection the Claybusters were by far the most consistent. Also, all appeared to be much "stiffer" plastic than the WW AA Red. The Pacific Verilite seemed next softest and the others were pretty stiff.

I guess a bit more experimentation with 0.690" RB's in shotcups is in order. I have been getting about 4" to 6" groups at 50 yards with the 0.662" RB in a shotcup and also with the 0.735" RB on hard card wads. Not looking for tack driving accuracy here just around 3" to 4" at 50 yards.

Looks like the Claybuster is the best of these to try for 0.690" RB in cylinder bore for my next test.

Longbow

jh45gun
11-15-2008, 03:55 PM
I think that Idea of the russian donut wads may have some merit to keep the ball stable. Not sure what a person would make them out of but it may be an interesting expirement

longbow
11-15-2008, 09:01 PM
I've been thinking about the doughnut idea as well. I made a simple jig to drill wads for screwing to the base of slugs Brenneke style. The jig worked fine but accuracy wasn't there. I'm thinking a really dense felt with punched poly disks might do better but is a lot of work.

Anyway, my drill jig is for 1/8" but I could either open it up or drill 1/8" then use that as a pilot for a larger bit to allow the ball to sit down into the wad a bit. I'm thinking 1/2" hard card wad under the ball and 1/8" on top. Maybe I will give that a try.

Longbow

jh45gun
11-16-2008, 01:15 AM
Keep us posted on what you do and results Longbow if you will please.

Adam604
11-16-2008, 11:56 AM
Hi Longbow,

I've also tried a bit of the "Russian Wad", a hard wad with a center hole or donut if you will.

Since, like you, my area has a very limited supply of reloading components to select from I have needed to improvise to do some testing of loads.

The hard card wad materials that have performed well for me are wads cut from cheap decorative wall paneling. It seems to come in two main types around here:

1. Really thin 1/8" 3 ply plywood
2. About 3/16" paneling made from some sort of compressed paper.

I made a punch out of 1/2 inch galvanized pipe, ground and sharpened and heat treated (after learning it is too soft ... mushed edge after only 8-9 wads cut). You will need a rod to knock out the wads from the pipe cutter. Only cut one at a time or you will have a real hard time getting them out...

I use a 2 1/2 pound rubber mallet to hit it and a 2x4 as a cutting board backer.

I've mostly used the 3 ply plywood paneling as the thickness fit my need better. I've punched out and shot about 250 of them so far. These I've used as hard cards for my LEE slug loads.

Paneling type #2 cuts pretty easy too with this tool.

I've only shot 5 of the donut loads and they were 2 ball loads.

I drilled a hole (about 3/16") in the paneling and centered my punch and had at it. Cut a bunch and sort for concentric ...

The loads used:

Federal target Hull 2 3/4" (walmart 100 pac)
Federal 209 Primer
23 Grains of Unique
black powder 12 gauge wad (about 3/4")
#1 1/8 inch Hard wad with hole
.570 Hornady round ball
COW (enough to cover ball)
#1 1/8 inch Hard wad with hole
.570 Hornady round ball
COW (enough to cover ball)
closed up with a 8 segment crimp.

The .570 ball weighs 280 grains so 2 of em 560 grains or just over 1 1/4 oz

They didn't crimp very good (load stack too long) and I needed to use scotch tape to keep in the COW.

So if any one else tries this load use 3" hulls

Results: at 30 yards the load hit 4 inches low and 3inches right and 3 made one big oblong hole, two of them made two holes about 2 inches apart.

Shot from a Mossberg 500 28" barrel with a modified screw in choke tube

I haven't shot any more as I've been shooting slugs and round ball

longbow
11-16-2008, 07:59 PM
I was planning on using 1/2" card wad under the ball with a large but shallow drilled hole and probably 1/8" nitro card wad on top with large hole to sit down well over the ball.

I can center the holes using my drill jig.

I will try to get some made for next weekend. I will also be trying some more AQ style but with a 0.735" RB. After close inspection it appears my 0.690" AQ's allowed the ball to shift a little. I am not sure why since the skirt is centered and forms a perfect cup but using the bore size ball will eliminate that issue.

Longbow

redhawk44
11-18-2008, 02:15 PM
I got the balls last week and loaded some up, but Deer season started Saturday and our shooting range is also our hunting area.

I don't hunt anymore but my brother does, so I will probably wait till the season ends, which is in December.

Interesting reading......and here I thought that Jerry and I were the only people crazy enough to devote time and money to stuff like this.....:roll: