Magazine chain fire test

[Photog]

So I wanted to find out if my handloaded lead round nose boolits could induce a "chainfire" in my Win M94 30-30.
So why not try to induce a primer fire in a controlled test?

What I did: Primed a 30-30 case. Put this primed case in a cartridge gauge, in a vise so the primer is up, the cartridge mouth is free to the floor being held securely in place in the "chamber" of a case gauge.

Seated a 179g Lee round nose boolit, from the loading bin. Not sure the exact percentage, but cast them with about 5% Antimony (rotometals superhard dunked in the pot) and a chunk of lead/tin 50/50 solder. These give me great accuracy if not driven too fast. They are not real soft, they do have a rounded nose, and you can't gouge them with your fingernail with out really trying. Not the hardest that I have cast, not dead soft, somewhere in-between. Seated the boolit into an unprimed case. Applied Lee Factory Crimp. Hard. Harder than I would normally go, and yes I do use the FCD for cast boolits. (just beagle your molds, don"t undersize them boolits and get them to *just* fit the chamber - your chambers are probably bigger than you think)

Holding the tip of the boolit to the primer of the inverted case, used a ball peen 8oz hammer to bash the crap out of the unprimed-but-seated-and-crimped and hope to hear a bang (wear hearing pro, and let your wife know that the loud noise is coming - primers are louder than it would seem).


:(:(:(:(

Nothing. The crimped boolit made a small dent in the live primer, but receded back into the case before it would detonate the bugger. Getting nothing could also be said of the hammer alone.

Your milage may vary, but I feel fine loading these into the M94, knowing that these Federal Primers (chosen because of supposed sensitivity) won't pop under recoil, and since I usually use CCI or Winchester primers, I built in a little extra safety.

[JimB..]

Nice test. Thanks for sharing the results!

[stubshaft]

I have never seen a verified case of a primer being set off in a tubular magazine by a spitzer type bullet. Personally I think that it is a perceived safety issue. However, I still load roundnose or flat point lead in my lever actions.

[Texas by God]

Round nose bullets have never been the concern. Lots of RN factory 25-35, 30-30 and such have been used for years with no problems. Try it with a spitzer; you'll get the bang you are seeking.

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[MT Gianni]

I saw a 92 at a gunsmiths that had gone off in the magazine tube. The suspicion was that the tube was sloppy enough that a swc on angle hit the primer. 2 rounds went off and there were 7 in the tube. It can happen. Doug Wells shop in 2004.

[ReloaderFred]

I've seen it first hand in a Model 73 Winchester, and I've seen pictures of a Model 94 Winchester that was destroyed by a magazine detonation.

[M-Tecs]

My dad's hunting buddy had a couple go off in the magazine on a Winchester Model 71. That was in the 60's and I was only 7 or 8 years old at the time but remember looking at the results with my dad.

[Photog]

I've seen it first hand in a Model 73 Winchester, and I've seen pictures of a Model 94 Winchester that was destroyed by a magazine detonation.

These incidents are troubling. They seem to happen, yet there is difficulty reproducing them. It would be great to know about the Win73 incident. What load/primer/bullet? 1873's have been around forever and all manner of configurations and calibers have been made. Which rounds (placement) in the magazine went off? Was there any analysis done by the factory/gunsmith?

[Photog]

And one huge caveat to anything posted by folks on the interwebs: my test was a sample size of 1, which is statistically meaningless for the masses.

Detonations DO occur. They happen when loading and unloading, during reloading operations, even in transport (thats why Federal has the sardine style primer trays).

If someone has some real analysis form a real testing lab, please share!
My questions would be:
Are there particular primers (brand, make, model) that are more prone to detonations?
Are there powder/primer combinations that are more prone to detonations?
Can primer age be a factor?
Can cartridge, caliber, boolit weight, mag tube size, etc be a factor?
Can ambient temperature be a factor?
does this happen with handloads more than commercial loads?

[robg]

handloader did a test years back all it shows is it can happen but its rare .im a coward so round or flat nose for me.anything that can go wrong will!

[DougGuy]

Had your primer detonated, without the flash hole drilled out pretty big specifically for a test like this, it could have exited the primer pocket in any random upward direction at a high velocity. Enough to shatter a pair of glasses, enough to cause a serious injury to an eye if it ricochet off the cheek and got under the safety glasses. Primers are dangerous when detonated outside their intended use, which would be confined by a chambered case and a breech face.

[Good Cheer]

Heard tell that tube magazine Henry's and #454190 are a no-no.

[longbow]

I was planning to do just such a test as the first time I read about magazine chain fire I was more than a little surprised... not having experienced it or seen it before and the fact that tube magazine guns have been around for a very long time.

Add to that I was at the time feeding max. loads through a Marlin 1895 .45-70 using round nose boolits (Lyman 457124). I shot thousands of rounds loaded to the max. with never a hitch.

Not saying it can't happen but per Photog's comments... under what circumstances? If it didn't happen with hot loaded .45-70, there isn't a much heavier recoiling rifle with tube magazine I don't think (using handloads). Not in factory chambering anyway.

My shooting was with round nose not spire point boolits and I can agree that a spire point boolit may have a better chance of setting off a primer... if the boolit is very hard cast alloy and centered on the primer. Even straight cases like .45-70 and 444 Marlin tilt in the magazine due to case taper and rim so boolit being centered on a primer is not likely anyway.

If factory ammunition was prone to primer detonation in tube magazines, even very occasionally, then especially in this litigious society I would expect firearms company lawyers to demand a stop to tube magazine firearm production. If a magazine exploded and a shooter or bystander was injured and the problem was linked to the tube magazine being at fault the gun manufacturer would be sued for sure. It would be a crippling lawsuit for the company.

In the same line, Paco Kelly sells or used to sell a hollow pointing tool for .22 rimfire and it is a simple die you insert a loaded round into then drive a punch down on it with a hammer to hollow point the bullet. I have not heard any issues with those and if the priming compound detonated that is a loaded round effectively in a chamber.

So, I'd like to know more about the details of magazine detonation/chainfire accidents that have happened to be convinced it is something that is a real concern. If these were all reloads that says something and likely the reloader is part of it ~ high primer? poorly seated primer? If a mix of reloads and factory loads then I'd be a little more concerned.

Like I said, not saying it can't happen but a little more info would be nice before drawing conclusion.

Longbow

[Photog]

Had your primer detonated, without the flash hole drilled out pretty big specifically for a test like this, it could have exited the primer pocket in any random upward direction at a high velocity. Enough to shatter a pair of glasses, enough to cause a serious injury to an eye if it ricochet off the cheek and got under the safety glasses. Primers are dangerous when detonated outside their intended use, which would be confined by a chambered case and a breech face.

I'm having a hard time with this assessment. Not "saying it ain't so", as that is one giant fallacy in our hobby, but I have serious doubts. If the primer detonated while being struck by the boolit point being struck by a hammer, the primer, with very little mass, would have to jump from the primer pocket, lift the boolit (with its momentum being reversed), and lift the hammer (with its momentum being reversed). Thats a lot of mass to move from a primer detonation, and a lot of friction to overcome from the pocket. Without the contained pressure from a closed cartridge, and yes a small flash hole (but that flash hole is open to the atmosphere), where is the pressure coming from?

[Texas by God]

The primer on a .50BMG case put blood blisters on my friends hand and went through a 1/2" drywall ceiling when he was "killing" the primer with a punch and hammer. Yes, it moved the punch, hammer, and his hand in an instant. Lots of power in even a small primer; don't play with them. That's dumb.

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[M-Tecs]

Good read and actual examples here:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?263616-lever-action-magazine-explosions

Got this from Beartooth:

"Buffalo Bore went to a small rifle primer, seated deeper than normal, when some customers managed to have ammo go off in the magazine tubes. With the Marlins, it's apparently possible for a hard cast bullet with just the right meplat to get a bit cocked in the mag tube, and put the edge of the bullet nose on the primer of the cartridge ahead of it.

Email BB if you have questions, Tim was very upfront about this...."

we do have a thread from the past
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...Tube-dentation
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...tube+explosion
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...tube+explosion

[LAH]

Remember Jim Taylor trying to set a primer off with some bullets I supplied him. He couldn't make it happen.

[50target]

The primer on a .50BMG case put blood blisters on my friends hand and went through a 1/2" drywall ceiling when he was "killing" the primer with a punch and hammer. Yes, it moved the punch, hammer, and his hand in an instant. Lots of power in even a small primer; don't play with them. That's dumb.

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Worked in a gun store when I was younger and while cleaning up one night found a 50 BMG round that someone had pulled the bullet and powder. Asked the manager what I should do and he said he would "deactivate" the primer & make it safe. Put it in a bench vise and used a hammer and punch. Now memory fails me as to the position of the case mouth, if it was against anything or not. He said it would make a noise and pressure would go out case mouth. Well.......not exactly. When he strict the primer, that case came out of the vice and took out two light fixtures in the ceiling along with other minor damage. Caused quite a ruckus. Taught me the power of a primer
Took a while to shake off "one of the 2 idiots who"

[john.k]

If you read the US army s tests of guns ,they had several tube magazine explosions ,...........admittedly with early design cartridges.

[fatelk]

I don't mess around with popping uncontained primers, as they do have some bang to them. A friend of my grandfather once pulled apart a 12 gauge round many years ago, and for some reason set the primed hull on a fence and shot it with a BB gun. He then had to go to the hospital to have the primer surgically removed from his arm.

So, not to downplay the hazards of primers, BUT a .50 BMG primer is a whole order of magnitude bigger than a 30-30 primer. It's a BIG primer with a whole lot of bang!

[Texas by God]

I remember reading that Winchester primers were used to light off solid fuel space shuttle rockets? Again, don't play with primers, kids.

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[JimB..]

Drill holes in a plywood sheet to hold shotgun primers. Use as a reactive pellet gun target. If you don’t drill the holes all the way through it can get very exciting.

Not sure that this relates to the OP, but it’s a tangent we seem to be on.

[Don Purcell]

If my friend Kent Lomont was still with us he could give you first hand (pardon the pun) knowledge of a blowup. He had a Model 71 Winchester rebarreled and chambered for 450 Alaskan. He had fired many, many thousands of rounds through it running a Lyman 500 grain roundnose gaschecked bullet with no problem with CCI primers. Then he switched to Federal with evidently a softer cup. The tubular explosion took off the end of his thumb, parts of a couple of fingers and nearly split his hand to the wrist. Granted, the 450 was a heavy recoiling round as he told me it was close to .458 Winchester velocities.

[Texas by God]

I have seen a picture of the remains of a Ruger .44 carbine that had a mag tube detonation. If it wasn't a thing, Leverevolution bullets would not be here. No tube mag cartridge warrants anything pointed anyway because flat and round softnoses are good to 200 yards.

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[indian joe]

I am surprised that so many otherwise sensible fellers seem prepared to push the envelope on tube magazine detonations - just because they never saw it happen (Yet).
When/if it blows - apart from wrecking the front end of a favourite gun - the operator is holding his off hand firmly clenched around a bomb - its gonna mean hospital, extensive surgery, and lack of proper function in that hand for the rest of your life -----

[FLINTNFIRE]

I do not doubt the ability of a primer to detonate from a tip of a bullet , have had a winchester primer pop in a rcbs hand primer , had a winchester primer pop in a 1911 , was jammed on feeding , was not jerking the slide , was applying pressure pulling back and only pressure back when primer popped put brass and powder residue into skin and made hand numb. So I load no spitzer or pointed , but I do load round nose profiles.

[indian joe]

I do not doubt the ability of a primer to detonate from a tip of a bullet , have had a winchester primer pop in a rcbs hand primer , had a winchester primer pop in a 1911 , was jammed on feeding , was not jerking the slide , was applying pressure pulling back and only pressure back when primer popped put brass and powder residue into skin and made hand numb. So I load no spitzer or pointed , but I do load round nose profiles.

Call me scairt if ya like - I dont even load roundnose - I do use Federal primers - (much softer cups than tothers) --------------this is one of those deals proly never happen but by golly too late after it does.

[Bazoo]

In my youth I laid a few large rifle primers on an anvil and hit them with a hammer. They made more of a bang than I had suspected. I had glasses on so there was some sort of safety.

Well anyways, my winchester 94 has a burr in the receiver at the junction where the magazine tube meets it. Sometimes the cartridges will hang on this and not move under spring tension until you bump the side of the receiver and it dislodges. Sometimes it will hang and opening the action dislodges it. Well it's an easy fix I'll just disassemble it and file the burr off and polish with some 600 grit paper. But I tell this because it may be one reason for some of the magazine tube detonations.

[georgerkahn]

Several years ago I recall reading an article posted by a Maine gunsmith -- Jim Green, of Downeast Gun Works -- where he showed graphic photos of what happened to his arm and several fingers -- from the magazine tube explosion of a Winchester lever gun he was test firing. His photos sure gave new meaning to all the prohibitions I ever read to use nothing except soft, round or flat pointed cast bullets in straight-tube lever gun magazines! His rhetorical questioning if he'd ever get full usage back from two of his fingers more than reinforced this.
The photos of his arm and hand were -- to me -- quite graphic (and then some!). However, if he published these for "educational purposes" -- at least, for me, it was a success!
geo

[shrapnel]

Don't think it can't happen...

http://i.imgur.com/jI7LlUX.jpg (https://imgur.com/jI7LlUX)

[FLINTNFIRE]

Is an interesting question , browsing around the web , I see where one person says it was a rossi 92 in 44 mag. with flat nose soft cast bullets that blew and injured him , so it can happen with all shapes . So where does this leave us ? Use a hollow point that has a wide enough hole to not touch primer ? So back to square one from what I see , like so many ways to do something there is no end all answer .

https://www.levergunscommunity.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=45773&sid=bd8d37b7e49cf089bbcc2ecb84ad79b4

Re: Is round nose ammo safe
#22 Post by muskeg13 » Fri Jan 11, 2013 10:22 pm

I take it a bit personally when so called "experts" claim that tube magazine explosions are either an urban legend or at least the risks and danger involved is overblown. After reconstructive facial and dental surgery, I walk around every day with permanent scars and nerve damage to remind me: Magazine explosions are a very real occurrence that should be taken seriously.

Sunday 23 May 2004, Delta Sportsman's Range, Delta Junction, Alaska. Rossi M92 .44 Mag. New W-W cases, Fed 150, 200 gr plain base cast lead FLAT nose (and not a particularly hard alloy), 11.0 gr Unique. 8 rounds were loaded into the magazine. On firing the second shot, all 6 rounds remaining in the magazine tube went off at once. Look at the photos and decide for yourself if you'd say they detonated. Multiple brass and lead fragments and powder residue particles were removed from my face in several surgeries over the next week. Minute lead, brass and powder particles worked their way to the surface over the course of the next year. The force of the explosion drove the magazine follower through my cheek/upper lip, breaking and knocking out a front tooth, chipped several other teeth and created a .75" diameter wound. One brass fragment, approximately 3/8" diameter lodged itself in the bone between my nose and upper lip.

All 6 cartridges went off to one degree or another. Too much gas was immediately generated to be vented off safely. The magazine tube plug and spring blew out of the muzzle end and were never recovered. The magazine tube itself blew out of the receiver and flared open, spewing shrapnel and debris directly into my face. The loading gate was blown outward from the receiver. Several of the cartridge case heads and lead bullets lodged in the receiver, under the carrier, although at least one bullet struck me on the left collarbone and created a deep bruise. After the magazine follower struck me it continued its rearward flight and was recovered 25 yards behind the firing line. Needless to say, the forend shattered into splinters.

I corresponded with R.W. Balleu (sp?) after his article in Handloader (or was it Rifle?), guessing that a high primer was probably the cause of my accident. He send me a very nice handwritten letter in response which I filed away in such a safe place that I can't locate it now, but the jist of his letter was:
Yes, magazine explosions while fortunately rare, can happen and can cause severe injury. In my case, he said not to be too quick to blame a high primer. He pointed out that several factors may have contributed to the ignition, and certainly made things worse.

First, the fat, straight sided .44 Mag case... places the cartridges in direct alignment with each other so the nose of the bullets contact the rear of the case ahead of it, fully over the primer pocket, and the fat case takes up almost all of the space in the mag tube, so there's less room for any gas to expand and dissipate. A bottle shaped/tapered case, particularly one with a large rim, is much safer in this respect.

Next, Unique is an easily ignited fast burning powder that produces a lot of gas immediately and once any is ignited, all is consumed. The same factors that make Unique good for reduced loads in large cases, worked against me in this accident. If I'd used a slower burning or less readily ignitable powder, there is little risk of a chain detonation. With slow burning powder, at worst one or two rounds may have gone off, and even then the powder would have probably only been partially consumed.

Next, my choice of Federal 150 pistol primers meant I'd picked the most sensitive primer on the market.

Next, the Rossi magazine tube is not threaded into the receiver like on a Winchester M1886 or M71. If it had been screwed into the receiver, it may have held in place as the large volume of gas and material were seeking to escape. If the magazine tube had remained fixed in the receiver, the main force of the explosion would have been contained within the action.

Finally, the relatively soft cast lead bullets may have been the source of ignition, and once one round had gone off, led to all of the cartridges in the magazine going off. I had originally loaded 10 rounds in the magazine, shot several times, and loaded several fresh rounds. It's possible that the lead bullets in one or more of the first cartridges deformed under recoil and extruded into the primer pocket of the cartridge ahead of it. Looking at the photos, you can see that this definitely happened in all cartridges once the first one went off.

[FLINTNFIRE]

As a added bit to this , I have not seen the photos referenced to the above incident , I am curious as to all of the castboolits sites members information and input on this as I have recently bought a 45-70 and a 45 colt lever actions , And to indian joe I will not call you scairt as I to believe in caution and the magazine explosions is in all honesty something I had never considered before as I always understood round nose and flat nose to be safe and that spitzers were the no no , As I do like to shoot both 45 colt pistol and rifle I am concerned enough to ask now that this has been brought to my attention and now that I am shooting lever actions again , yes I am a heritic as I had been into bolt actions and semi autos , but I like the 45 colt and wanted to carry same load for both.

[Bazoo]

Thanks for sharing flintnfire.

A part in the story you shared caught my attention.

"I had originally loaded 10 rounds in the magazine, shot several times, and loaded several fresh rounds."

I'm wondering if one of the rounds that stayed in the magazine through several loading and firing cycles had the primer back out. Maybe back out and seat again multiple times, until it finally went off.

[Bazoo]

The other part that caught my attention is the magazine follower impailed him and was found aft of the firing line. How? The follower is at the muzzle end of the magazine tube with the cartridges between it and the shooter. So why didn't the follower exit the tube towards the front along with the magazine tube plug and spring?

Now, I'm not saying it didn't happen, nor like was told. But this doesn't make any sense to me.

[indian joe]

As a added bit to this , I have not seen the photos referenced to the above incident , I am curious as to all of the castboolits sites members information and input on this as I have recently bought a 45-70 and a 45 colt lever actions , And to indian joe I will not call you scairt as I to believe in caution and the magazine explosions is in all honesty something I had never considered before as I always understood round nose and flat nose to be safe and that spitzers were the no no , As I do like to shoot both 45 colt pistol and rifle I am concerned enough to ask now that this has been brought to my attention and now that I am shooting lever actions again , yes I am a heritic as I had been into bolt actions and semi autos , but I like the 45 colt and wanted to carry same load for both.


Flintfire
I have a bunch of lever guns
1)and although I way prefer Federal primers my 44/40 always gets rifle primers not pistol - contrary to a lot of opinion here - ALL the 44/40 brass I have, when measured, is cut for rifle depth primer seating NOT pistol depth, (easy to check this by measuring 44magnum and or 45 colt primer pockets for comparison)
2)I started campaigning a 45/75 model 76 two years ago - 28 inch barrel - full magazine - big heavy rounds - there is a fair bit of shunt impact when you lever a round and decent recoil as well - initially I was using the LEE 405 gr HB slug and it worked well - but on closer inspection I figured the nose could actually enter the primer pocket of the round ahead and rest on the live primer - I milled the flat on that nose of that one sos it was impossible to do it.
3) 2)above sent me looking at other loads - my Browning 71 - nose of projectile can fit inside the primer pocket (unlikely because of the tapered shape of the case but possible)
ditto for most 30/30 rounds I have seen (dont have one of those, my 94 is a 38/55)
4) I cast fairly soft (skinflint - tin is expensive - I use just enough of it to get the mold working - and have salvaged plenty of pure lead over the years to dilute out the wheelweights) also never been a believer in hard cast to ease leading - boolit fit is king there I reckon.

That Rossi blowup is hard to fathom .....I wonder is it possible to seat a primer just a little too deep - partly crushing the compound so its on the verge of detonating - kind of priming the primer? -----always wondered about that

Had a wakeup call last year - cleaning out my dads junk after he passed - (they had a gunshop a couple decades earlier) there is this stack of 15000 shotgun primers - I was rearranging it all - one of the boxes had a hole in it (maybe the size of a 5 cent piece - ours) - I thought a mouse had been there and done his stuff but no - ONE primer in that slab of 200 in the stack of 15,000 had detonated and blew that lil hole in the box - why only one ? ...... lucky day for someone I guess!!!

[FLINTNFIRE]

No idea on truth or why what happened did , only interested in the ways to lessen chances of it happening , I do have among the 45 molds one with more meplat , but it is a touch heavier then I was wanting to load . Not new to lever actions have had a few over the years , and just lately found some rather decent buys on the 2 uberti rifles . Along with 4 uberti single action clones and a pietta clone , prices were cheap , they were all used except for the 1886 , used in there case meant someone fired them hardly at all and lost interest I believe

[longbow]

Something to consider about magazine detonation... and not arguing whether it can happen or not but... if magazine detonation was even a remote possibility with factory ammunition then I am pretty sure firearms company lawyers would not allow the guns to be sold at all.

One only has to look at some of the liability cases that have happened and there is little if any doubt that if someone was injured by a magazine detonation using factory ammunition in an unaltered gun the company that made the gun would be sued.

So that begs the question ~ have all the magazine detonations occurred using handloaded ammunition or with factory loaded ammunition as well?

As an owner of an 1894 Marlin in .44 mag. and a former owner (and quite likely a future owner) of an 1895 Marlin in .45-70, that I loaded hot when I had it, I'd like to make sure I don't run into any issues. I find it hard to believe a large meplat would be able to detonate a properly seated "good" primer from even heavy recoil. Possibly with a high primer or primer seated in a dirty primer pocket or some other issue. Not saying it can't happen but I suspect there has to be a "perfect storm" of events and that with factory ammunition the event is not reproducible.

Longbow

[M-Tecs]

Every owners manual I have read for centerfire fires with tube mags state not to use pointed bullets in the tube. How many factory loads for traditional tubed lever rifle rounds have pointed bullets?

I don't remember what manufacture but I have seen warnings on ammo boxes stating not to be used in tube mags.

If we believe the historical accounts of the development if the Winchester 1985 and Savage 1892/1895/1899 series rifles they were designed specifically to allow the use of pointed bullets in lever guns. Same for the spiral design of some early tube mags that allowed for pointed bullets.

Lots of older designs for a multitude of things that have been used for a very long time would not pass muster if developed today.

[shrapnel]

You could always get a Remington model 14 and shoot pointed bullets...

[FLINTNFIRE]

Had one in 32 remington , still have some of the brass , was not a bad rifle , still think I will load a wide flat nose and call it good.

[longbow]

M-Tecs to my knowledge these reported chain fire incidents (at least in this thread) have been with flat nose or round nose boolits.

I see no issues with ammunition and firearms companies stating not to use pointed bullets in tube magazines. Of course that is co.mon sense but they have to protect themselves by stating the fact.

My point was that if factory loaded ammunition intended for guns with tube magazines had the remotest possibility of being detonated in the magazine I doubt the guns would be manufactured and sold. The potential liability would be too great.

I cant say for sure but I believe every chain fire incident I have read about has been with reloads... and maybe one or two of those were with pointed "J" bullet reloads.