Cast boolits in a sabot?

[Tripplebeards]

I have a Thompson center 50 Cal omega that I received the first year they came out. Years ago I load tested it and the best groups game from three pellets of triple seven along with a 300 Grain Thompson Center shockwave bullet. It will put three shots on the same tattered hole at 100 yards. I bought a Nikon Monarch 2 1/2 x 10 with a BDC rectical The first year they produced them and mounted it up. I had to call Nikon to ask them what the drops were when turned all the way up the 10 power since there was no on line download or program yet other than paper directions include with it to tell me how the drops worked. Well I guessed from what they told me and sighted in my gun three and three-quarter inches high at 100 yards. The rest of the circles were perfect dead center at 200, 250, 300, and 350 yards when I tested it. I tried a three shot group at each of these off my bench. The 200 yard group was one and five eights inch, The 250 and 300 yard shot group were both 4 inches, and the 350 it opened up to a 12 inch group. I’ve shot almost a dozen deer with this load and all do the same... Run like they haven’t been hit and travel probably 50 to 80 yards and drop. I even drilled one square in the shoulder one year which broke the front leg on entry and exited the other side and the deer still went a good 45 yards on three legs before it fell over. I’m guessing it is just too hard of a bullet and doesn’t expand and not a lot of kinetic energy transfer. I’m guessing my load is around 1950 ft./s. I got the idea the other day to try some of my group buy 450 bushmaster boolits I casted up using a sabot from the shockwaves and the same three pellets of triple 7. My boolits weigh 263 grains and i PC’d them with clear because I was planning on shooting them out of my rifle. I did not gas check them but did size them to .452. My alloy is 50% clip on wheel weights, 50% pure with 2% pewter added to the mix. The boolit seems pretty snug in the sabot. I guess I’ll have to take it out to the range and see how it groups. I would guess this will at least put a pretty big exit in a deer if it runs vs a bullet diameter exit hole with the shock waves. Has anybody tried loading cast bullets with sabots in muzzleloaders?... I’m sure many people here have...I am just kind of curious with the results and how the accuracy is. The shockwave seem to do OK and are extremely accurate but sometimes I get very little blood trails because the bullets don’t open up but they do always exit. The only time I dropped a deer with it was back boned and then I had to finish it off with another round which is still laid there for a couple minutes after a heart and lung shot to expire because the bullet never expanded again. I was just looking for something that might give me a little better blood trail or a little quicker dispatch and wondering if my soft cast hollow point might be the answer.


https://i.imgur.com/jhb9Hl9.jpg

[BK7saum]

I have loaded and shot the MP 44 310 grain bullets as hollowpoints. they weigh about 295 I think. Loaded into sabots without the gas check is a good fit and are pretty accurate, about 1moa at 100 yards, maybe a little bigger. They have shot well for me.

[Tripplebeards]

Good to hear I figured since my jacketed bullets were .452 diameter I better stick with a .452 boolit for a good tight fit. I figured if I can get it to shoot an inch and a half or less at 100 yards I’ll use them since my longest shot is maybe 150 yards and my average shot is normally 40 yards or less. I do have some lee 255 grainers PC’d with the same alloy I could try as well.

[Pipefitter]

Cast them out of pure lead if you are looking for expansion. with the sabot you wont get any leading regardless of the velocity you drive them at.

[Tripplebeards]

If that’s the case which I was guessing so I will not waste my time group testing these in my gun since muzzle loader season starts Monday and I already have a proven load with the shock waves. If they are to hard to expand i’ll be right back to where I was with the shockwave and I’m sure they won’t group as tight anyways. I am out of town for Thanksgiving and will not be back until Monday and I’m not gonna waste time casting up bullets and load testing when I can be out hunting. My plan was is when I go out the range to make sure my muzzleloader is on I was going to shoot a three shot group with my cast that I already had ready to go and if they shot accurately I’d hunt with them. I would’ve thought 2100 ft./s with the 50-50 mix would have probably over expanded them? I never tested the BH of these boolits but tested the exact same mix out of another batch and got about a 10.5 BH.

I don’t have this mold anymore so I can’t cast some pure lead boolits up after hunting, it was just a thought to try.

[JBinMN]

I have the same muzzle loader & it is a tackdriver. Bought it a long time ago. Before the TC Encore or the TC Impact were out & available. I use only 2 pyrodex "pellets" because most of my shooting is only around 50 yds or less, with the occasional longer shot out to 75. I have tested it at 100 yds, but never needed to shoot that far. Sights are set to 50, IIRC. All because I live in a part of MN where the terrain usually does not allow for real long shots all that often,( steep bluffs & ravines) so this doesn't bother me one bit. There could be some longer shots out in farm fields, but it is real rare to see the deer out at this time of the year out in the fields feeding since they have been shot at for a few weeks & are not keen on being shot at... ( Unless at night.)
;)

I have been considering doing the same thing as you mentioned in the OP, for several years & just not got around to it. Our MN muzzle loader starts tomorrow morning & I decided not to hunt it this year. ( Or at least until I possibly change my mind. ;) ) I reckon I have enough venison right now, to be honest.

If I do change my mind & hunt I will be trying this possibly, but only after some testing. The loads I currently use are giving such good results that I just never got around to testing with cast in sabots yet.

G'Luck! if ya do try it!
:)

[Elkins45]

I have used both a Lee and an MP bullet with sabots in my Savage smokeless. I hollow pointed the Lee mold with a big giant cavity and cast some from pure. I shot a doe with one (lung shot) and found a petal of the sheared off point inside the backstrap. To say it expanded violently would be an understatement. The Savage moves that bullet at over 2K fps so I think in the future I’m just going to stick to wheel weight equivalent.

Accuracy is just as good as jacketed as long as I use good quality sabots. IMO the Hornady ones are the best. They will still hold accuracy in warmer weather when other brands get too soft.

[Tripplebeards]

The black original sabots that come with the 300 grain shock waves group the tightest in my gun that all go in one big hole at 100 yards. The 250 grain original shock waves come in second and will shoot a .5” group. The hornady 250 grainers group at 1” and the quick load hornady sabots with 250 grainers grouped 1.8”. The superglide sabots and bonded TC sabots grouped at a good 2.5/3.5”. I upgraded to the base line, all back omega the first year it came out. I believe it was $399 from midsouth shooters supply at the time. The gun is ridiculously accurate. I’d just like a better expanding bullet.

The only reason I have it set up for long range is I went elk hunting with it in AZ years ago. My average deer I’ve harvested with it has been 20 yards.

Years ago it shot a doe in the backbone at 279 yards with open sights, with 2 pellets, a 265 grain hornady jacketed soft point, and my BK92 Knight. It dropped on the spot with a chunk out its back the size of my fist. I shot a red fox with it earlier in the morning as well.

[JBinMN]

The TC black sabots with the TC 250 gr. bullet & 2 Pyrodex pellets is what I have & been using for extremely accurate shooting , if I was not clear. I would refer to try sabots & cast, & even patch & cast some time, but until I do , I am perfectly happy with the TC stuff I have been using for some times now. ( I bought a good lot of them long ago , and still have around 20 or so, I'd reckon.)
;)

[WBH]

I've been using .446" cast RCBS and Lyman in my .50 cal Muzzzleloader with Hornady black sabots. They load far easier than the .452" with no loss of accuracy out to 150 yards over 2/50 pyrodex pellets. multiple loadings are a breeze with little effort and no swabbing the bore.
.446 is for the .43 spanish I believe.

[kens]

I have tried a variety of bullets/boolits in .50cal sabots. they all shoot ok.
Have you tried .45 pistol bullets in the sabot?
My CVA .50 SxS likes to have 100gr BP + 45acpHP bullet in a sabot.
My CVA .50 inline likes 50gr pellet + 60grpellet + soft lead HP in sabot
The CVA inline likes Powerbelts also.
I have never had a deer run away from any of these loads. DRT.
All these left a exit wound that let the insides out and the cold air in

Those cast pics you posted, I would expect them to work nicely as well

[Tripplebeards]

I was thinking about trying some 250 grain .452 FTX that I load for my 450 bushmaster. They probably would only be going 100 ft./s less than a 450 BM with 3, 50 grain pellets of 777.

The 300 grain TC shockwave and 3 pellets of triple 7 has always been my goto load. My buddies both both own TC encores. I load tested them both with this load. One shot a .5” group and the other a .8” group at 100 yards. Its my pet load for TC muzzle loaders.

I can’t believe they discontinued that gun! In my opinion that was the in-line muzzleloader that was the game changer for modern muzzleloading . It’s the first in line that shot sub MOA for tons of people.

[Tripplebeards]

Im guessing my load my load in my 265 grain cast will be around 2175 FPS with 150 grains of tripple seven.

https://i.imgur.com/UzWbwZ3.jpg

[Buzzard II]

Google MMP sabots. They have good info available and a good selection of sabots. Good luck.
Bob

[LUCKYDAWG13]

Cast them out of pure lead if you are looking for expansion. with the sabot you wont get any leading regardless of the velocity you drive them at.

This I lost a Deer with too hard of a boolit in my T/C Omega So i went back to a 250gr shock wave and 150gr of proydex it just shoots to good in my rifle to rock the boat

[725]

I shoot those Shock Waves in my 700ML w/ 80 gr. loose Triple Seven. Blisteringly accurate and I never shot a deer twice with that load. Many have taken only 5 or 6 steps. Usually pile up well within 40 yards. There are so many choices to investigate, it would take you all summer to even get to most of them. Pure soft cast in a sabot would work well. No need for alloys. Just try different weights. Heavy & slow is tough to beat. Full bore bullets work just as well. Don't limit your experimentations. A summer at the range is time well spent.

[Gtek]

Had my Omega also for many moons, that 90 measured loose 777 with the red Sabot 250 Hornady shoots/worked so well I'm almost afraid to mess with it. Anyone cut their muzzle back removing easy load area? I have a 454424 HP SC mold I am tempted, maybe this summer.

[Tripplebeards]

Since season starts tomorrow I’m just going to shoot the shockwaves since the last time I load tested them they shot a .3” group at 100 yards. I will head to the range tomorrow to check to see if my scope is on and hit the woods. I’ll try casting some pure 44 cal Lyman devastators up next year and try them. I’ve never lost a deer yet with the 300 grain shock waves so if it’s not broke don’t fix it.

[JBinMN]

Since season starts tomorrow I’m just going to shoot the shockwaves since the last time I load tested them they shot a .3” group at 100 yards. I will head to the range tomorrow to check to see if my scope is on and hit the woods. I’ll try casting some pure 44 cal Lyman devastators up next year and try them. I’ve never lost a deer yet with the 300 grain shock waves so if it’s not broke don’t fix it.

G'Luck! & put one on the Meat Pole.
;)

:drinks:

[Tripplebeards]

I do have a lee .452 300 grain and 255 grain mold I’ll cast up pure for next year to try as well. Our season lasts 10 days and we can use our unused bucks tags. I’m excited this year because there really wasn’t hardly any shooting on the surrounding properties so even though I haven’t been seeing deer I believe they have not been spooked to the point of being nocturnal yet.

[megasupermagnum]

Since you already cast 44 caliber Lyman Devastator's, I don't know why you wouldn't try those.

[rodwha]

Since season starts tomorrow I’m just going to shoot the shockwaves since the last time I load tested them they shot a .3” group at 100 yards. I will head to the range tomorrow to check to see if my scope is on and hit the woods. I’ll try casting some pure 44 cal Lyman devastators up next year and try them. I’ve never lost a deer yet with the 300 grain shock waves so if it’s not broke don’t fix it.

But it is a bit broken, no? It’s not performing the way it should leaving you to want to try others.

[Tripplebeards]

I just got back into town at about 2 o’clock today and it’s about a half an hour to my land. Well I either could’ve ran my butt off took a quick shower in scent shield and grabbed all my gear and went and sat... But I never checked my optic to see if it’s still on. I also needed gas and had a low tire. I figured I’d owed it to myself and the deer to take the afternoon off and head to the range. I remember the last time I checked my zero which was about 4 to 5 years ago it was 2 inches high at 100 yards with my 300 grain shock waves. I squeezed the first 100 yard shot off and called it done with the shockwaves...

https://i.imgur.com/3c2Mei6.jpg

At least I’m better safe than sorry and I know now that if I miss it’s me.

Here is the first three shot group I ever shot with this load at a 100 yards and this is repeatable all day long as long as I do my part...

https://i.imgur.com/gpyvL5W.jpg


I did borrow a couple of my shockwave’s sabots and tried a three shot group at 100 yards without adjusting my optic. It shot a 2 1/4 inch group. It’s definitely minute of deer with the load and right on without adjusting. If it was at least an inch and a half or less I would hunt with it. Even though my deer always run 50 to 60 yards after the shot on average I know my deer is dead every time when I pull the trigger with the shockwave


Here’s my cast group...

https://i.imgur.com/C0Ah45L.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/Oqs5XF5.jpg

[rodwha]

A wide meplat penetrates well and creates plenty of hole no matter what. But if you can’t find something to group well you just can’t, though I think I’d take 3” at 100 yds with a WFN vs 0.25” with little trauma if <150 yds is all I’d be possibly do.

What kind of internal damage are you seeing?

[megasupermagnum]

Knowing you are capable of great accuracy, I would keep trying. My accuracy load in my TC impact, scoped with a Leupold 1-4x, is 90 grains Blackhorn 209, T/C brand 44 caliber (green) sabot, and a SSK 320 grain bullet sized .430". I no longer hunt with that gun, but I did take it out to shoot to loan it out this year. It is consistent at 1 1/4" at 100 yards under no wind conditions, which as good as I ever got anything to shoot in it. That includes a number of store bought sabot/bullet's, like the SST, shockwave, etc. The shockwave is ridiculously hard to load in most guns, and doesn't shoot well in mine. The SST is decent, right in there with my cast bullet. The Hornady FPB shot quite well, however, they do not perform well on deer.

The most surprising thing to me was how flat my cast bullets shoot. At 90 grains Blackhorn, I believe they were around 1700 fps from the gun. Sighted 1.5" high at 100 yards is less than 3" low at 150, and around 10"-12" low at 200. I was able to get 4" groups at 200 yards with mine. Only one deer was ever shot with this load, and with a pure lead bullet. I didn't shoot it, but was told it was trotting, and face planted at the shot. The shot was taken at about 20 yards.

I think you will be pleasantly surprised with a soft cast bullet in a sabot once you find one that shoots great. Personally I think it is the perfect opportunity to pick a solid bullet cast very soft. Expansion is impressive at these velocities without a hollow point, maybe more so since they tend to flatten out like a rivet, rather than bend over and mushroom into a ball.

Don't discount a bore size bullet like the offerings from No-Excuses either. From what I hear, they are the go-to for long range hunters out west.

[Tripplebeards]

What kind of internal damage are you seeing?


To be honest I don’t really remember. If I remember right it tears the deer up pretty good inside. Every deer I’ve shot makes it a good 45 to 60 yards after the shot except for when I back bone them. All the deer that I’ve traveled I’ve been broadside heart and lung shots even with breaking a leg on the way in on one Which was done on purpose to see if I could drop it in the on the spot. It’s been a few years since I’ve nailed one with the muzzle loader as I’m always trying to trophy hunt. Normally on the last day of muzzleloader season I’ll take whatever walks by the last 15 minutes and that’s how I’ve shot most these deer as Id rather fill my tag with something and have meat in the freezer than eat my tag. I did check on my Nikon BDC program and it said 2 inches high at 100 yards will put me dead center at about 140. So I would assume my muzzleloader at 2 inches high at 100 yards I should be able to aim directly dead on a deer out to 160 yards or a little farther which is as far or farther than I probably have a shot in my woods.


You think a bullet like this traveling at 450 bushmaster velocities would put deer in the ground where they stand most the time. The 300 grain shockwave has just got to be too hard of a bullet is the only thing I can figure out. I guess I just need to treat it like a hard cast boolit that doesn’t expand and aim for shoulders and backbones if I want to drop them where they stand.


The Shockwave triple seven combo I’m using imo is a pet load in most TC muzzleloaders. I tried to two of my buddies TC Encores and one omega and all shot Sub MOA.

[rodwha]

There’s just no way a pointy non-expanding bullet does the same damage a WFN will do at a similar velocity. The deer might not drop right there but I’d bet you might cut their running distance down.

[megasupermagnum]

There’s just no way a pointy non-expanding bullet does the same damage a WFN will do at a similar velocity. The deer might not drop right there but I’d bet you might cut their running distance down.

To be honest, deer running 50 yards is not bad. But if Tripplebeards wants more, he can try.

[Tripplebeards]

I’ve done a lot of googling on the 300 grain shockwave and it sounds like it’s pretty much the norm when using this bullet. I haven’t lost a single deer with them. I was just hoping to put them down a lot quicker. I’ll be excited to try some super soft pure lead hollow points next year that I can try and work up some Tighter grouping loads for but I just cut myself short with time this year.

[rodwha]

To be honest, deer running 50 yards is not bad. But if Tripplebeards wants more, he can try.

It’s not really bad at all. But the performance of his bullet is.

[rodwha]

I’ve done a lot of googling on the 300 grain shockwave and it sounds like it’s pretty much the norm when using this bullet. I haven’t lost a single deer with them. I was just hoping to put them down a lot quicker. I’ll be excited to try some super soft pure lead hollow points next year that I can try and work up some Tighter grouping loads for but I just cut myself short with time this year.

For sure. There’s no time to try things for this year. And you do get your deer.

Take note of the permanent wound channel and additional damage if you don’t mind. I’m a bit curious as to how the terminal performance would be as I’ve contemplated a long range setup with both SST’s and FPB’s, both of which are claimed to not expand as they should. However my powder charge would likely be half of what you are using in loose powder.

[megasupermagnum]

For sure. There’s no time to try things for this year. And you do get your deer.

Take note of the permanent wound channel and additional damage if you don’t mind. I’m a bit curious as to how the terminal performance would be as I’ve contemplated a long range setup with both SST’s and FPB’s, both of which are claimed to not expand as they should. However my powder charge would likely be half of what you are using in loose powder.

Don't forget that loose powder beats out pellets in just about every way except convenience. 100 grains 777 powder equals or exceeds the velocity of three 777 pellets (supposed to equal 150 grains). This was tested with brand new, freshly opened powder, and has been repeated by others.

The only deer I shot with 350 grain FPB's was with 100 grains of Blackhorn 209, with 120 grains being maximum. The shot went through the upper heart, both lungs, and the deer only went about 50 yards. Heart shots don't fail. At the time I was just happy, it was a decent buck, shot on the last day, freezing temps, and snowing. I would say it made about 1/2" hole all the way through, lethal, but not all that impressive. The problems arose when we found out they shoot great in most guns. My uncle shot three pellets 777 with them, and wounded a buck. We never found it. My dad was shooting two 777 pellets, and wounded either two or three. We only found one, a small buck. Maybe a 1/4" hole in one lung, took out the liver and some guts. I forget exactly, but I think it ran around 150 yards before it bedded down. We later found a skeleton that we believe was my uncles buck about 300 yards from where he shot it. There's no way to know for sure, but he is a good shot, he says it was a double lung shot. My dad isn't as good a shot (sorry dad), but he shot at least one if not two does at sub 20 yards, and that's a hard shot to miss. I helped track one for about 400 yards before we lost it.

Sometimes S happens, but retrieving 2 out of 5 deer, and neither was an impressive kill is not good. Maybe it was a bad batch of bullets. The one's I used were at least 2 years older. I would just avoid them, too many good options out there. That's the trouble with these new long range bullets. Sure they may get you an extra 25-50 yards of point blank range, but you are giving up the terminal performance at all ranges.

[rodwha]

I was not aware that loose was that much better (just checked, and granted it was one same bullet/load that I looked at, it was better than the 2 or 3F version). The one handgun chrono testing I saw (Pyrodex) made me think it was similar to energetic powder.

I’ve heard similar stories of their SST’s not expanding either, and with a smaller projectile you’d just have a smaller wound channel. I’ve always trusted Hornady though...

I’ve been wanting a muzzleloader barrel for shooting across fields from a blind, and liking the point blank system, want something I can shoot out to 200 yds with a 4” margin (+/- zero). All I could find using a .45 cal barrel is a saboted .40 SST estimating velocity of 75 grns of 3F. All sorts of stuff that can handle 175 yds, but fields can be wide.

[megasupermagnum]

At some point drop is drop, and you just have to accept some compensation. Get yourself a TC scout pistol, mine is accurate to 75 yards. Then you can sight your rifle to 200, and use the pistol for most stuff. For your listed +/- 4" to extend to 200 yards, you are looking at a muzzle velocity of 2150 fps minimum. That is possible, but you are stuck with light bullets, and absolute tip top powder charges, 120 grains with Blackhorn 209, and 140/150 grain with 777. You won't get there with blackpowder.

Muzzleloaders have got to the point that any person can now go out and shoot them with little work, but it's still a muzzleloader. It's supposed to be tough. You either have to accept the limitation, or learn to shoot at longer ranges without point blank range. That's where I feel guys get into trouble trying for that extra 25 yards and end up sacrificing too much. If you have a 45 caliber, that's all the more reason to be shooting a real conical bullet.

[rodwha]

I was actually just thinking about a closer range pistol and not worrying about point blank so much.

Actually Olde Eynsford and Swiss outperform Triple 7 from all I’ve read and been told by shooters.

It’s been quite some time since I was really looking over ballistics. Apparently for a 200 yd point blank I had to concede to +/- 5” with that bullet as I figured muzzle velocity to be in the low to mid 1800’s.

My current rifle is a .50 cal and with a 24” barrel as I figured my first rifle should be able to cover the most use. Compact and light (~7.5 lbs) enough for stalking yet good for 100-125 yds. For something long range and just for medium game I’ve thought along the lines of .375 to .410” paper patched/full bore or .452 to .458” and saboted. Weight on a 15/16” wouldn’t be much of a deal if it’s a blind rifle.

Initially I wanted a Malcolm style scope as it’s a sidelock. But I’ve been told not to discount peeps for that sort of range.

[rodwha]

There’s a fella who LOVES the Lee .500 paper patched in his Hawkens. Many others do too. He takes shots to 150 yds (initially) but practices to 300 (?). That bullet has a nice meplat! Seems better to use a good bullet and configure it to shoot from 100-200 yds well and use a handgun for closer up oddball shots. But some places I’ve hunted have a field on one side and good cover on the other.

[Tripplebeards]

My buddy came down a few years back to muzzle load hunt. I don’t Remember which muzzleloader hunter he brought but he has two TC‘s. It was either is 45 for 200 Grain Thompson center omega or his 50 Cal encore with 250 grain Hornadys. I’ll have to as Him but I’m pretty sure it was the 250 grain Hornaday’s....or Shockwaves. Well anyways I sat in the open and he walked up to my tree stand and not even five minutes later I heard him shoot. He shot a basket rack eight pointer that walked by about a minute after he sat in the stand. He couldn’t find blood so he came and got me about 15 minutes later. I ended up finding his deer within minutes. It went about 100 yards with zero blood and he double lung it. To be fair the deer probably went 75 yards or less, stopped and rolled down a steep hill. At least my 300 grainers will start blowing blood out for a trail after about 20 or 30 yards. The 300 range shockwaves I use will kill a deer every time I’m confident in them I was just hoping to get something with the quicker dispatch. I’m confident in my shooting capabilities and I’ve always take double lung broadside shots at closer ranges so I know the deer is dead when I pull the trigger and I just have to find it. Do you know come to think of it I know the 300 grain shock wave always leaves a bigger than bullet diameter exit hole. Probably around an inch. Give or take. It just amazes me that every deer have reacted exactly the same. I thought I would have gotten one to drop a little quicker..at least once.


I think the lee 300 FN casted pure would be a hammer if it shoots accurately.



I just look at it this way...if my gun shoots all in the same hole with a load off the bench and in the real world I’m out in the woods free handing a shot and I flinch or something goofy happens making my bullet wander off its path a couple inches I’m still going to be on the money. But when I’m shooting a 2 1/4 inch group off the bench at 100 yards and the same thing happens I could have a bullet that wandered a good five or 6 inches either way missing vitals.

[rodwha]

My buddy came down a few years back to muzzle load hunt. I don’t Remember which muzzleloader hunter he brought but he has two TC‘s. It was either is 45 for 200 Grain Thompson center omega or his 50 Cal encore with 250 grain Hornadys. I’ll have to as Him but I’m pretty sure it was the 250 grain Hornaday’s....or Shockwaves. Well anyways I sat in the open and he walked up to my tree stand and not even five minutes later I heard him shoot. He shot a basket rack eight pointer that walked by about a minute after he sat in the stand. He couldn’t find blood so he came and got me about 15 minutes later. I ended up finding his deer within minutes. It went about 100 yards with zero blood and he double lung it. To be fair the deer probably went 75 yards or less, stopped and rolled down a steep hill. At least my 300 grainers will start blowing blood out for a trail after about 20 or 30 yards. The 300 range shockwaves I use will kill a deer every time I’m confident in them I was just hoping to get something with the quicker dispatch. I’m confident in my shooting capabilities and I’ve always take double lung broadside shots at closer ranges so I know the deer is dead when I pull the trigger and I just have to find it. Do you know come to think of it I know the 300 grain shock wave always leaves a bigger than bullet diameter exit hole. Probably around an inch. Give or take. It just amazes me that every deer have reacted exactly the same. I thought I would have gotten one to drop a little quicker..at least once.


I think the lee 300 FN casted pure would be a hammer if it shoots accurately.



I just look at it this way...if my gun shoots all in the same hole with a load off the bench and in the real world I’m out in the woods free handing a shot and I flinch or something goofy happens making my bullet wander off its path a couple inches I’m still going to be on the money. But when I’m shooting a 2 1/4 inch group off the bench at 100 yards and the same thing happens I could have a bullet that wandered a good five or 6 inches either way missing vitals.

I hear ya. I’m sort of the same way in my thinking. We read often enough 6-8” means venison, but I like 4” (or less) because it helps cover over any mistake I may make.

While using a .270 Win, and talking a lot with my former Marine and old boss who took me hunting, neck shots were talked about. No tracking whatsoever. Of course you need an excellent rest, but I wonder how your bullet might perform then. I always shot the first third of the next by the shoulders as that portion doesn’t actually move so much when they move their head around.

[Tripplebeards]

And how many deer get shot an inch above the neck and run around suffering people will never know. I am not a head or neck shooter and never will be...again. I have dropped several deer with head shots. All it took was one between the eyes with an arrow and it jumped up from the ground and ran into a tree and then got up again and ran away and I never found it. I felt so bad I quit hunting for the rest of the season that year. Taking a center mass body shot allows for error. A head or neck shot you’re either on or off. Imo you better be resting on something while squeezing the trigger and hoping that deer doesn’t turn or bob its head. I just consider myself a better sportsman and owe it to the deer not to let it suffer. In my opinion every guy that says they shot a deer in the head or the neck there’s five or six of them running around that they gimped that they either didn’t know they did or won’t admit. I’ve seen a lot of these wounded deer that I’ve had to finish off in the woods during the season and wasting my tag and it burns my butt. I have a few surrounding neighbors that are very poor marksman. I remember I free handed a coyote in blew it’s job off all it was facing me. I ended up tracking it down. It went about 150 yards under some brush and tried to bite me with no Jaw. Dirty coyotes I’ll shoot them in the head all day long but deer I wont anymore unless it’s the only option I had.

[rodwha]

I’m skeptical about doing so with a muzzleloader as it doesn’t have the speed like that 130 grn bullet.

Aiming at that first third cuts things to near nil as far as movement and not hitting the important spot. Granted I’ve only shot a handful in the neck none were off the mark. But I can certainly appreciate the sentiment, especially after a result such as that.

[725]

I've found power belts to be accurate and easy to work with. Hunting with them has always been very disappointing. Have taken a couple of deer with them, but never again. No expansion. Fast or slow at impact, and I've never got any good expansion. I'll never use them again. Shock Waves work better for me. Back to the OP, sabots with soft lead cast are a good way to go.

[megasupermagnum]

I've been asking myself about shot placement recently as well. There's really only 4 good ways to shoot a deer broadside (slightly toward or away is ok), three frontal, and facing away is just not a great bet. For a broad side you have a double lung, heart, shoulder, or neck shot. I don't even consider a brain shot, as it is just not a good idea. For the frontal you can go for the neck or chest, the chest being dead center, or if a bow hunter, slightly off to go between the breast bones. Ultimately the goal in a frontal chest shot is a heart shot. Facing a way is tough with many variables. Straight away from a stand, and firearm hunting, you can shoot through the spine and hit the heart. On the ground, facing straight away is really only viable if you are shooting a handgun with solid hard cast bullets, or a good shotgun slug like a Brenneke. I wouldn't even trust a rifled slug, and most smaller bore rifles like 30 caliber have a tendency to veer too much for that kind of shot. I just avoid it all together.

Most guys hope for a broadside shot, and either put one just behind the leg and double lung them, or shoot the shoulder. I have always preferred a heart shot, which is about 1/3rd up the body, and about centered with the shoulder. 1/2 the time I get the heart, 1/2 the time I get the lungs. Most anatomy pictures have the heart in the wrong spot, it is about centered with the leg. For some dumb reason this year, with my handgun, I went for the bowhunter shot just behind the shoulder. I'm 100% sure that deer is dead close by, but between 4 of us we could not find him. I started pouring rain 20 minutes after the shot, the ground was frozen, and we couldn't tell where he went. We spent too much time looking in a corn field in the direction he ran, but looking back, I think he cut around down wind, and bedded down in the swamp. He's coyote food now, S happens.

Now I'm not sure a heart shot would have helped, but it sure would not have hurt. Shoulder shots scare me though. If you miss low, sure you get the lungs. Otherwise you have about a 2" window to either take the shoulders out, possibly spine, or wound it. That's not a lot of margin for error. A deer's heart is bigger, and it is encased in the lungs which are huge. I've only taken a few neck shots, and all of them were instantly disabling. Not all got the spine either. The biggest buck I ever shot stopped behind a downed tree and looked right at me at 15 yards. I shot him dead center in the neck with a rifled shotgun slug and he died instantly. When butchering, we found the slug had only glanced off of the spine. but did not break it. I'm sure you could shoot over the spine and wound one, but I don't think that animal will suffer too bad compared to many injuries. Anything from the spine to the adams apple is lethal, they wont recover if you puncture their throat. I still won't take that shot on purpose, but it is effective. It makes a lot more sense if you shoot something like a 6mm that doesn't penetrate well, but shoots very accurate, and causes meat to turn to mush.

The most effective shot I've seen isn't even legal around here. Large buckshot from a shotgun, placed at the base of the neck. You can take out the neck, spine, shoulder, and lungs all in one shot.


Anyway, I've found even heart shots are often a 30-50 yard run. Some just fall over, I've never had one make it over 50 yards.

[Tripplebeards]

Yes I agree that most people that shoot deer in the neck were aiming center mass of the deer and their boolit/bullet veered off and hit the spine or the neck....they weren’t aiming for it. I guess if I shot my 2 1/4 inch group cast load and flinch a little bit I probably have a good chance for a spine and neck shot to. Lol

I’ve always aim center mass or a little lower for the heart right behind the front shoulder and my bullet has been accurate enough to land where I aim most times so the chance of myself back boning a deer is slim and none unless I’m aiming for it which I won’t. The only way I guess I would aim for it is if the deer was directly below me out of my tree stand but a broadside shot it’s not gonna happen. Center mass shot broadside moving up and down a couple inches is still gonna put me in the heart of the lungs if I flinch or hit a branch. A couple inches aiming for a spine either way is going to go over the deer for a complete miss or just shooting through the back straps. No offense... but I think most people that shoot deer in the back bone flinched, hit a branch, or just need to work on their marksmanship a little better. Everyone here talks about saving so much meat and eating to the hole with cast bullets but a backbone/spine shot is wrecking your back strap meat or a chunk of your neck. A broad side shot through the ribs wrecks nothing except for the internals no matter how violently the bullet expands and comes apart. I just read on another person here shooting cast boolits and back boning a deer. Great job!...And I don’t mean to take away from it but they weren’t aiming for the back bone...the bullet just landed there. I wish I had a pair of x-ray glasses so I can see through a deer to shoot the back bone every time and I would hit it because I know I’m a good enough marksman but I still wouldn’t aim for it because I’d also be throwing away a lot of meat. Both deer I shot with J words this year I lost zero meat (as usual)with broadside shots. I did lose a liver on one though because I hit a little far back when it was on a trot. I can remember throwing away a lot of meat with some back bone shots in years past literally blowing apart the back straps. Just not my cup of tea. IMO 99.9% of the people don’t aim for the back bone and by pure dumb luck their bullet just ends up there.

[Tripplebeards]

A couple of posters asked me for update how the 300 grain shockwave worked with damage pics. Today was the last day of muzzleloader season where I could use y unused gun buck tag. I went out earlier in the week and the only thing I saw was a small doe. I watched it for over an hour and took a shot through the brush while it was standing around 75 yards or a little further. I should’ve waited till I had a clear shot. The deer ran like it wasn’t hit and went out of sight. I also knew I flinched when I shot. I went to look for blood,hair, and the deer but didn’t find anything. I figured it was a clean miss. Well today it was 2° out and it was the last day. I headed out to my stand when warmed up to 7°. I built a A hunting shack for my pops and figured I would have fun and sit in that thing. I also left my Mr. buddy heater in it from last year so I figured once I got in it I’d fire it up. I walked up to the blind as I was just getting in the woods and noticed a deer standing broadside with its head and front shoulder behind a tree at a little over 75 yards from me. It looked as if it was perfectly broadside but I found out it wasn’t after shooting it. I couldn’t tell if it was a buck or a doe, if it was big, or if it was small. All I knew was it was cold and I had five doe tags yet to fill and one buck tag. I quickly and quietly side stepped three steps to the nearest tree to lean my muzzle loader against for a solid shot. All I could see was the deer’s ribs and a rear end while it was still standing broadside with its head and front shoulder hiding behind a large hickory tree. When I put my scope up on it I could see several rib indentations so I knew I could forward enough to make a lung shot. I cocked it and let the hammer fly. The smoke cleared and I could see the deer tilted over a little from the shot and disappeared behind a few trees. It Immediately appeared and ran a good 20 to 30 yards directly down hill, hooked right, and leaped directly towards my direction within 15 yards. It was leaping with its tail up look as healthy as an ox like it wasn’t shot and running right past me. I continue to watch it go about 30 yards behind me and stop behind a cedar tree. I saw his tail wiggle a couple of times and heard a couple of twigs breaking. I figured if that was the same deer it must’ve been a complete miss. But then I thought to myself maybe there were two deer there and when the deer I shot at went out of sight it might have went over the hill away from me and there could’ve been another one with it that jumped up at the shot and ran past me. So I went into the woods where I originally shot at the deer instead of walking in where I last saw the deer by the cedar to check for blood and hair. I figured if that was a different deer I didn’t want to push it across the road and if it was and wounded I don’t want to push it. I found zero blood and zero hair where it was standing when I shot so I figured it must’ve been a complete miss just like the other day and maybe my muzzleloader was off. I then figured I would go into the direction where I saw the deer ran past me. I followed the tracks that went right past me with zero blood. The last 15 to 20 yards before the cedar tree where I saw it stop I found two or three drops of blood half the diameter of a pencil eraser on the ground and then every couple of feet there were more drops. I walked another 10 feet and kept looking through the brush thinking I must not of hit it very well since there was hardly any blood and maybe I’ll get lucky and It would be bedded down where I last saw it so I could try and finish it off before it crossed the road onto someone else’s property. It basically was heading right towards where I parked my truck and it was maybe 20 yards away from the road where I found it. It dropped right where I last saw it. It wasn’t a perfect shot by any means but it did a lot of damage. It just never bled externally till the last 15 to 20 yards which were just a few drops of blood here and there. I took out one lung and the liver look like a grenade went off on it. Apparently it was not broadside and facing me at an angle as the bullet exited the second of the last rib on the other side and low. It unfortunately hit the stomach as well which must’ve clogged the exit hole. Good thing I watched the direction of that deer I remembered where I saw it last. Just like you guys say some deer die on the spot and some have a will to live. The lung that I took was probably the last 4 to 5 inches of it. It wasn’t completely gone like my high-powered rifles would’ve done. I could feel chunks of it when I pulled it out. It amazes me how tough animals are and how far they can go the inside of that deer was disgusting.

The entry hole...


https://i.imgur.com/uAxvyij.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/MBa8eqY.jpg


And the exit...

https://i.imgur.com/vnADAlt.jpg


With all the blood on the deer were it laid you would’ve thought it was pouring out of it the whole way!


Oh...and when I got home and skinned it tonight to my surprise I found a fresh wound at the top of his shoulder blades! That’s where I aimed at the other deer when I pulled the trigger the other day. I aimed right for its front shoulder and knew I flinched. I have the gun sighted in 2 inches high at 100 yards so it should hit dead at 150. I Musta gave it a haircut. There was a fresh scab on the meat that I cut right off and it had a good size hole in the Hyde from the bullet grazing it. The scab was shallow and fresh enough that it didn’t hit the back straps so I got lucky. When I shot this deer today it actually was 10 yards away from the exact spot the other one was bedding the other day than I took a shot at. I’m pretty sure it was the same deer.

https://i.imgur.com/m0Xjtt1.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/DFuSewz.jpg

Luckily it was shallow enough that it didn’t get into the back straps or shoulder.


Well it’s at home now in the garage aging... No it’s probably already frozen solid. I did already cut out the tenderloins, back straps, and save the heart. I took them in the house and put them in a cooler with ice to try and age them as well.


So long story short the bullet hit where I aimed, it killed the deer, the blood trail sucked again, and it went farther than I thought it would. I’m Definitely going to switch bullets next year. I think a pure lead cast boolit in a Sabot is calling my name

[rodwha]

That exit certainly looks nasty enough to say it expanded well enough. Quite surprised that there wasn’t much blood from a wound looking like that.

Have you tried full bore conicals?

[megasupermagnum]

That sure looks devastating to me, I do not think you can improve on that. Try a full size bullet, that's about the only thing you can do. 308 Winchester sure vaporizes water jugs. My 54 caliber muzzleloader with a 440 grain full bore conical with a wide flat nose just makes them disappear. You might find a few shreds of plastic is about it.

Traditional muzzleloader hunting is supposed to be challenging, not just an extended season. At least that's what I tell myself. -18 this weekend, does are moving now and then, haven't connected with an adult buck yet.

[rodwha]

That sure looks devastating to me, I do not think you can improve on that. Try a full size bullet, that's about the only thing you can do. 308 Winchester sure vaporizes water jugs. My 54 caliber muzzleloader with a 440 grain full bore conical with a wide flat nose just makes them disappear. You might find a few shreds of plastic is about it.

Traditional muzzleloader hunting is supposed to be challenging, not just an extended season. At least that's what I tell myself. -18 this weekend, does are moving now and then, haven't connected with an adult buck yet.

Where’s the like button?

[Tripplebeards]

I use to shoot conical’s out of my night BK 92 and traditions in line 54 cal years ago with loose powder. It was not a very accurate combination. The first year the 777 50 grain pellets came out I switched over to them and never look back as they were way more accurate for me. Today starts and where was only season and I can use a rifle again. It’s Thursday through Sunday. So I’m off to the woods this afternoon with my Ruger 7744 and cast.

[rodwha]

So I’m off to the woods this afternoon with my Ruger 7744 and cast.

Good luck!

[Tripplebeards]

Good luck!


It’s 28° and raining right now! How can it rain when it’s below freezing I’ll never know. I never got my new tires put on my truck yet and are sitting in the garage so I don’t dare make the trip out to my property today as when the sun goes down I’m sure it’ll be a skating rink on the roads and I drive over some pretty big steep hills. Figured it’s not worth my life to shoot another deer. I believe tomorrow’s going to the same Weather conditions. Saturday and Sunday the temps are supposed to drop way down but no precipitation so I guess I’ll wait and go then.

[Tripplebeards]

So when I start experimenting with cast lead bullets I am running 150 grains of triple seven through my gun. A 250 grain bullet is doing about 2250 ft./s according to Thompson centers ballistics and a 300 Grain bullet is 2150fps. That has got to be going way too fast for a pure lead HP bullet I’m guessing. I would think my 16 to 1 pewter and lead mix is still going to be pretty soft with that speed?

[megasupermagnum]

So when I start experimenting with cast lead bullets I am running 150 grains of triple seven through my gun. A 250 grain bullet is doing about 2250 ft./s according to Thompson centers ballistics and a 300 Grain bullet is 2150fps. That has got to be going way too fast for a pure lead HP bullet I’m guessing. I would think my 16 to 1 pewter and lead mix is still going to be pretty soft with that speed?

You likely are not going to get those numbers in reality. You might be able to get close with loose 777, but not pellets. The fastest I ever ran over the chrony with 777 pellets was around 1850 fps, and that was with a 300 grain SST in a sabot. I never messed with anything lighter. With these kinds of velocities, there is another option. A pure lead solid bullet, which will not come apart easily like a HP. The best of all worlds. A HP can still work, especially if you truly believe in energy dump. I do not buy the theory myself.

You could also use less than 150 grains too. You have obviously had differing experiences, but I have yet to have 150 grains of anything shoot great.

[rodwha]

If you look on Hodgdon’s site you’ll see they show 100 grns of loose powder outperforms the pellets. I’d venture to guess 120 grns might equal 3 pellets, and at a much better price.

My sling has a few slots that hold speed loaders.

[Tripplebeards]

This is the “marketing” velocity chart that I believe Thompson center posted years ago on their website on the same page as their 28” barreled Omega. I saw another chart Years later on some other website that said it was only 1850 or 1950 ft./s with my load. I’ll have to run it across my chronograph to see what velocity it really does come out of my barrel. Whatever velocity does or doesn’t come out I will still stick with the pellets. They’re fast, easy, and precise which is what I want for hunting. I haven’t tried the white pellets. I remember quite a years later TC changed this to two 50 grain pellets with the 300 grain shockwave and revised their load data. They must have had a few shooters that had problems with 150 grains of pellets I’m guessing and thought they were over charged. Couldn’t tell you but all I know is this load combo works well i. four different TC guns I’ve tried very accurately.

https://i.imgur.com/JKI32Dp.jpg


I do remember back in The day when I used to be a head shooter and now I detest it. I shot a double back to back head shots with this bullet and of course they never kicked. Both went down where they stood DRT.

The first one walked underneath my tree stand and shot it approximately 15 feet away at an angle directly between the eyes and an inch or so higher on center with a brain shot. There was one with it that ran. I loaded up my muzzleloader and got out of the ladder stand. When my feet touched the ground I turned around and saw the other one staring at me at 45 yards. I leaned my gun right across one of the step rails for a steady shot and drilled that one right between the eyes. So backbones and Headshots put deer down where they stand with this load... But I won’t take a headshot anymore unless it’s the absolute only option I have. I own a ridge top and a lot of times deer walk below where I stand and all I can see is the head and I still pass them up. I figure someday that I’m going to see a big giant rack I’m not gonna have a choice but to drill it in the melon again. I don’t purposely aim for backbones because it destroys way too much meat and it doesn’t kill them, just paralyze, and I end up having to shoot them again. Obviously from looking at the results my bullet expanded it’s just because it’s moving so slow it doesn’t have tons of kinetic energy transfer imo i’m like it’s been said thousands of times some deer just have a will to live and don’t know their dead yet.


My guess is no matter what bullet I end up trying I’m probably going to get the same type of results because it’s a big heavy slow moving bullet. I might at least get a better blood trail if with a softer alloy but I’m not expecting any bullet to drop a deer where it stands with this slow velocity smoke pole unless I hit the CNS. Out of all the googling, reading, and a some of my buddies on deer results with shoot muzzleloaders they all basically have the same findings as I do with no matter what bullet they use. I haven’t read about one magic bullet yet in a muzzleloader that everybody’s excited about that lifts deer off their feet and slams them to the ground. It’s just a dream that’s not gonna happen. I believe it’s just the nature of the beast with muzzle loading and more challenging just as you stated above. Muzzle loaders reminds me of saying back in the day with Buffalo. Shoot today and find tomorrow... It’s not that bad trust me I’m just over exaggerating. But with a buffalo and one shot I bet you that’s was the norm.

[OverMax]

I've used this brand of sabo/ bullet in my G/M quick-twist for a number of years. Shoots well and from a manufacture that informs its customers of their products capability and suggested bullet weight. (lots of real life testimony to read)
Not all B/P projectile manufactures hunt with the product they market. "Those at Precision Bullet do."

www.prbullet.com

[Tripplebeards]

I've used this brand of sabo/ bullet in my G/M quick-twist for a number of years. Shoots well and from a manufacture that informs its customers of their products capability and suggested bullet weight. (lots of real life testimony to read)
Not all B/P projectile manufactures hunt with the product they market. "Those at Precision Bullet do."

www.prbullet.com



Those things are junk! My buddy worked ran a shop out in Phoenix and they stopped carrying them probably a good 10/12 years ago because Everybody that tried them couldn’t hit the broadside of a barn. He gave me 12 packs of them. All in every variation that that manufacture makes. I couldn’t hit the broadside of a barn if I was locked inside of it with those boolits! I can’t believe they’re still in business. I tried every one of those and all my buddies muzzleloaders is well with the same results. I blame it on their crummy sabots. If you’re having luck with them you’re the only one I know. I ended up giving them to a buddy who started muzzleloader hunting years ago and I asked him the other day what he did with them... He threw them out because he had the same poor results as everybody else that tried them. I’m sure if they hit their mark they would do a lot of damage since they are pure lead with a ballistic tip. They just all fit way too loosely every muzzleloader I loaded them in which I’m sure that was the problem. They manufacture their Sabots too small in diameter if I had to guess. If he still had them I’d put them in the TC sabots and try them but they’re long gone. I even tried to bundle sell all 12 packs on eBay and nobody would give me a dollar start bid with $5 shipping ...it was hilarious. I remembered one even had double sabots one inside of another.lol that one shot the worst of all. I think it was a 175 grain boolit if I remember.

[OverMax]

Just saying I've never had a problem with PR. I do like P/Rs ability to reload quickly in a fouled barrel quite unlike MMP and Harvester {standards} two firings back to back if ~ lucky. My P/R's use is in a G/M stainless 45 cal barrel only.
All the rifles I own are side-locks in 45_54 _58 cal. I do have a dedicated 54 Renegade that shoots T/C Break-a way's only (the barrels preferred) with a home cast 44 cal 215-gr soft lead H.P. I drill the HP's on a drill press so I can control there expansion_cavity size and depth. Such bullets slam MN deer hard to the ground but.~~ Lots of bone fragmentation and blood shot tissue incurred with there using. So the Renegade isn't taken afield very often if I can help it.
Here's something some members here are aware of. I moved on sometime ago in my B/P projectile choice. For years now I've found the littl 45 cal patched ball has been quite suitable for my B/P deer needs.
From day one I've never cared to own a 50 cal inline or side lock. Although I've researched the 50 cal here & there over the years and I never suggest a product online I haven't tried and been satisfied with.
BTW
I blame it on their crummy sabots Harvester {crush-rib} made.

[Tripplebeards]

They Must have switch Sabots then because absolutely none of them were harvester crush ribs. Everyone one of them were as smooth as silk on the outside. Just all different colors of the rainbow. I specifically remember the orange and blue sabots stacked on top of each other for the long range 175s in .375 diameter. I can remember seeing the ads when they first came out back in the day and I thought those were the coolest thing I ever saw...until I tried them. I have tried about 15 different sabots now and the only one that groups the tightest is the black sabot that gets used in the TC originals. They are really soft. TC sells them Separately and are called the TC mag express sabot. Im sure someone like harvester makes them for TC. I have tried their thicker and harder blues and yellows and also hornady’s reds. They are all harder plastic composition and open up groups. This seems to be the norm in the group of muzzleloaders I tried load testing in as they all had the exact same grouping results. I have not tried the crushed rib sabots yet because of the time of testing they were not manufactured yet. I would assume dead center got smart and switch them because the general consensus was the bullets couldn’t hit the broadside of a barn in most muzzleloaders with them. And that wasn’t my opinion that was a fact they were got pulled off the shelves at the sporting good store after several complaints years ago and literally got thrown away that’s how I got them for testing. Like I said I’m sure it’s probably a good boolit if it if it hit where it aimed. I googled them to see if they’ve gotten any better in the first review I saw which is basically the only one so you know they’re not popular in on the shelves anymore was by Randy Wakeman and he literally slammed them. He basically said the heaviest one which was 340 grains which was the only one that he would maybe consider using. He basically said the rest were junk. So in all the years that passed I don’t think they’ve improved. But I’m sure if they now use a crush rib sabot they knew they had accuracy issues and changed.

I started out with modern in lines when they first came out I think it was 89’. The reason being is Wisconsin extended their hunting season to be able to harvest a deer with an unused buck tag if he didn’t get one during the normal rifle season. At that time I was a big horn hunter and still am to a certain extent. I figured this was a way I could get some extra buck opportunities in the woods because most people around that time had no clue what a muzzleloader was or much less walked out in the woods with one. I have yet to take a big buck with one is all I have to say. By the time gun deer season is over the big bucks are all nocturnal in my area and I don’t drive...I’m a stand hunter. I’ve taken several smaller bucks and several doe just to fill my tag and learn from the experience from what muzzleloaders do on deer. I’ll take a Waterproof sealed breach any day of the week over a traditional model muzzleloader. I still plan on getting some just to have fun and tinker with. I just wouldn’t walk out in the woods and spend hours on end on a wet snowy WI muzzleloader season day to find out my gun didn’t fire when it counts. That’s the reason most manufacturers modernized them so the guns would be reliable and that’s why the older ones I hate to say it already as popular... But I still think they’re cool and they have a place and I plan on getting one soon. Most manufacturers stopped producing the traditional rifles years ago. It suck, because now if you want one your going to pay 2 to 3 times more than what they sold for new with a corroded barrel because the average person didn’t know how to clean or maintain them. I’ve had FTFs,hanging fires with loose powder, and a few dud caps with number 11 primers while hunting. I have had ZERO fail to fires with 209 shotgun primes and Hodgen pellets.

[rodwha]

They Must have switch Sabots then because absolutely none of them were harvester crush ribs. Everyone one of them were as smooth as silk on the outside. Just all different colors of the rainbow. I specifically remember the orange and blue sabots stacked on top of each other for the long range 175s in .375 diameter. I can remember seeing the ads when they first came out back in the day and I thought those were the coolest thing I ever saw...until I tried them. I have tried about 15 different sabots now and the only one that groups the tightest is the black sabot that gets used in the TC originals. They are really soft. TC sells them Separately and are called the TC mag express sabot. Im sure someone like harvester makes them for TC. I have tried their thicker and harder blues and yellows and also hornady’s reds. They are all harder plastic composition and open up groups. This seems to be the norm in the group of muzzleloaders I tried load testing in as they all had the exact same grouping results. I have not tried the crushed rib sabots yet because of the time of testing they were not manufactured yet. I would assume dead center got smart and switch them because the general consensus was the bullets couldn’t hit the broadside of a barn in most muzzleloaders with them. And that wasn’t my opinion that was a fact they were got pulled off the shelves at the sporting good store after several complaints years ago and literally got thrown away that’s how I got them for testing. Like I said I’m sure it’s probably a good boolit if it if it hit where it aimed. I googled them to see if they’ve gotten any better in the first review I saw which is basically the only one so you know they’re not popular in on the shelves anymore was by Randy Wakeman and he literally slammed them. He basically said the heaviest one which was 340 grains which was the only one that he would maybe consider using. He basically said the rest were junk. So in all the years that passed I don’t think they’ve improved. But I’m sure if they now use a crush rib sabot they knew they had accuracy issues and changed.

I started out with modern in lines when they first came out I think it was 89’. The reason being is Wisconsin extended their hunting season to be able to harvest a deer with an unused buck tag if he didn’t get one during the normal rifle season. At that time I was a big horn hunter and still am to a certain extent. I figured this was a way I could get some extra buck opportunities in the woods because most people around that time had no clue what a muzzleloader was or much less walked out in the woods with one. I have yet to take a big buck with one is all I have to say. By the time gun deer season is over the big bucks are all nocturnal in my area and I don’t drive...I’m a stand hunter. I’ve taken several smaller bucks and several doe just to fill my tag and learn from the experience from what muzzleloaders do on deer. I’ll take a Waterproof sealed breach any day of the week over a traditional model muzzleloader. I still plan on getting some just to have fun and tinker with. I just wouldn’t walk out in the woods and spend hours on end on a wet snowy WI muzzleloader season day to find out my gun didn’t fire when it counts. That’s the reason most manufacturers modernized them so the guns would be reliable and that’s why the older ones I hate to say it already as popular... But I still think they’re cool and they have a place and I plan on getting one soon. Most manufacturers stopped producing the traditional rifles years ago. It suck, because now if you want one your going to pay 2 to 3 times more than what they sold for new with a corroded barrel because the average person didn’t know how to clean or maintain them. I’ve had FTFs,hanging fires with loose powder, and a few dud caps with number 11 primers while hunting. I have had ZERO fail to fires with 209 shotgun primes and Hodgen pellets.

Were those long range versions a sabot inside of a sabot? I’ve wondered about such, but it seemed a bit silly and possible for them to not work as designed, to break away.

[Tripplebeards]

Yes, the long range version is what I was referring to. My buddy had over a case full of all their offerings that were getting tossing out per the store owners request. He was their gunsmith at the time and asked if he could have them instead of tossing in the trash. They also got rid of all their muzzleloaders, air rifles, and fly fishing rods the same week and he bought four TC muzzle loaders and a few high end air rifles for pennies on the dollar and was given a bunch of Saint Croix and G loomis fly rods. Sucks to be him. He gave me two packs of each one from 175 up to 340 grains. Every one of their offerings I tested shot 3’ plus groups at 100 yards out of my omega. I tested all of them in all four of his Thompson centers which consisted of 2 Omegas and two encores, my Omega, his brothers Encore, and my buddies Omega all with the same horrible results. So 7 muzzle loaders that all shot 3’ plus groups with everyone of the offerings was enough reassurance for me to never buy or recommend them. The dead centers fit very loose down every barrel I tested. I still say they had a sabot issue. Once again none were crush rib sabots. All were smooth on the outside like the TC’s I use but the dead center plastic sabots were a lot harder and stiffer. I don’t believe they properly sealed the bores on every one of the rifles I tested which explains why they were all over the place.


Last day of our anterless hunt today and I didn’t get a chance to test out my cast bullets out of the 77/44. We have a holiday hunt hunt coming up the 24th through the 31st so i’m hoping to get out the last couple of days.

[megasupermagnum]

I've never tried the bullets from Precision Rifle custom muzzleloader bullets, but I bought a bare 209 breech plug for an NEF huntsmen. I ordered it over a month ago, and never heard another word. I sent an email, no response. Tried to call, no answer. Finally I called once more last week and he answered. Right away the guy got defensive. He says my debit card did not go through, which does seem to be true. He also said he sent me an email, and tried to leave a voicemail, but mine was full. Both are bull. I looked all I could through my spam, my voicemail was not full. I looked through my call history, and he never called. So I gave him my credit card, and he ran it right there, said it worked. He said the breech plug was sitting there, and would get it out in the morning. I was just about to call him again today when I notice he finally created a shipping label, although it is not yet shipped.

Avoid PR bullets, the guy is full of it. Unfortunately I'm not aware of any other source of NEF breech plugs, and the original plastic carriers are breaking, with no replacements available.

[Tripplebeards]

Too bad I don’t have all 12 packs that my buddy threw out or I would send them out to anyone that wanted them to test and see for themselves. To give you an idea my buddy is the cheapest guy in the world, he fills his pocket with condiments and napkins everywhere he goes. So when he actually threw them away you know they weren’t worth a squat.lol... if I still had them I probably would’ve melted the boolits down by now. It’s too bad they look very cool. From what I googled the soft pure boolits with an inserted plastic ballistic tips blew up and surface splashed on a lot of animals with very shallow penetration.

[megasupermagnum]

Well, I may have made a mistake. I didn't realize PR bullets was based in Canada. The shipping label I got started in North Dakota. It is quite likely the guy sent the breech plug out when he said he would, and it took that long to get through to the US.

I still think it's odd he didn't call or email me, and then lie about it though. Oh well.