Cowboy black powder

[cajun shooter]

I shoot SASS and I've been thinking about loading with the "Holy Black" in my 45 Colt, 12 sxs and at present my 1894 marlin with 38spl cartridges. I would like info on Goex cowboy powder for the cartridges. I also would like info on the 12ga shotshell. I have STS cases and use a MEC sizemaster now. I know that I can't use the powder in my Dillon 550 also. I have Rem TGT wads and Win pink at this time. Should I use an over the powder wad in the cartridges? I do have some SPG to lube the bullets. All the guys I shoot with shoot smokless but one but he shoots C&B and can't help me with loads. He also told me he mixes FFg and FFFg to make up his own blend. I think I should use FFFg in the 38spl. I went to the Goex site and it had no info on the cowboy blend.:castmine: I should have put this on Black powder cartridge but I don't know how to correct my mistake. Sorry Guys

[mooman76]

I can't really help you as far as the Cowboy powder goes. I have never used it. You can most certainly use an over powder wad. Some claim they shoot better that way but you would have to try some to see. I'm sure you know the BP has to be packed tight with no air gap so if you don't plan on filling the cases with BP you will have to use a wad. 3f would be a good choice for pistol. Usually you don't mix powders in duplex loads but but BP is different and you can mix granulations. Some claim they get better loads that way. I have never tried it myself. Good luck!

[lathesmith]

Be sure for your cartridge loads that you use lube that is specifically designed for BP or subs, and NOT the Alox/petroleum-based lubes for smokeless. Yes, some of us have gotten away with using Alox-type lubes with BP, but better results can be had with BP lube. I believe Bullshop here on the forums is a highly-recommended source for this, and there are others.
As for loads, it not really too complicated. Just take the BP/sub that you have on hand, fill your case to leave NO air space under your BP-lubed bullet of choice, and try it. It can't get much simpler than that...
lathesmith

[Don McDowell]

Cowboy was specifically designed to be used in 40 gr or less charges, and should work really well in your 45 and 38.
Your 12 ga will do much better with either 2f or 1f.
You likely can call,write or email Goex and get some load recommendations for the Cowboy powder.

[missionary5155]

I do not have a 45 Colt but have a 44-40 here with me. I am Not real scientific with BP when I am going to be shooting a whole 25 yards or less.. So
In 44-40 I hold my intended boolit along side the case to figure how much room there is to fill to to the base of the boolit then figure about +10% more BP to get a reasonable compression. Dig up the needed Lee powder scoop and go to it... or make your own scoop out of an old neck split case. 38 special is no different. You must plan on some compression of the powder. If you want to use less powder in the 45 make over powder wads. Straight wall cases are EASY. For that 38 I would NOT reduce as you do not want to stick a boolit in the barrel..

Lube.. I make my own using 50/50 bees wax and olive oil... simple and CHEAP and aas good as anything I have tried. Works just fine in my 44-40 Colt New Service or 18 inch Winny SRC. I use boolits with BIG or many lube grooves.

Shotgun... now you have to be a bit more careful. 85 gr FF was the old standard .. it is mild and you can get plenty of shot in it. But you have to fill up the case with powder,wad,and shot...NO air.. I personally like the plastic shot cups as they seal the BP gas behind the shot and it disperses evenly coming out the choke. But to be "Origonal" use wads... Crumpled newspaper WORKS well if you first make it into a wad (crumpled on a ball) and insert it under firm compression. Using crompled newspaper is cheap and easy to adjust for interior space in the hull. I would use 1 ounce of shot... but again you are not hunting just gonna blast a gong so really 1/2 ounce is enough. So however much shot you use measure how much room you need. Adjust whatever type wad(s) for hieght, dump the shot, close it up. I have used as little as 50 gr FF ( real wimpy) up to 120 gr FF (give this one to your buddy He He). The wad is the key... compression of the BP and it all staying closed up in the hull. I have used this in my 16 gauge and 12 gauge hammer guns. Using the newspaper wads may upset some range boss.. some folks anymore just do not like realistic reenactors. If they ask what you are shooting tell-em pea gravel...

[cajun shooter]

I want to thank all of you who took time to post an answer. I'm still looking for info for Goex Cowboy powder. I don't want to go and spend 100.00 for an order with Haz-mat and delivery charges and then have something I can't use. Has anyone used this powder and what were the results?

[John Boy]

Cajun - I'm a CAS 'Darksider' and let me tell you: With the price of BP these days, find the CHEAPEST FFg and use it for all of your reloads.

Best way to get the price down is split a case with some one else.

I just loaded a case of shotshells (83gr ea) and went through 5.3 cans of FFg powder. Start adding on the cartridges and it adds up to more cans.

Don't know where you live, but if near a BP distributor ... you can call them and have a 25# bag ordered. But you have to pick it up at the distributor because it cannot be shipped. No HAZMAT and substantially cheaper then in the metal cans

[Dale53]

I have loaded and shot good numbers of .45 Colt Black Powder cartridges with excellent results.

I use Lyman's Cowboy bullet (452664) - it is 250 grs when cast 30/1 lead/tin. It has a nice large lube groove and I use "Emmert's Home Mix" slightly modified: 50% Pure Natural beeswax, 40% Crisco, 10% Canola Oil by melted volume. I modify it by changing to 5% Canola Oil and 5% Anhydrous Lanolin for longer life. I pan lube in pie plates doing several hundred bullets at a time or you can lube with Lyman, RCBS or Star lube sizers. No heat is needed as Emmert's is a soft lube (it looks and acts like SPG, which is, perhaps, the gold standard of black powder lubes.

I use 2F (noticeably less recoil and velocity than 3F). I determine bullet seating depth and fill with black 1/16" too high, then compress with the seated bullet. You do not need wads. This recipe gives me 1.5-2" groups at 25 yards. You can reduce recoil by using lighter bullets. However, the 250 gr bullet shoots to the sights of my Ruger Bisley Vaquero.

If you want the whole story on shooting single actions, get Mike Venturino's book, "Shooting Sixguns of the Old West". He has complete reloading information, both smokeless and black powder, with chronograph information on most calibers. Really good and USEFUL book.

Dale53

[missionary5155]

Well I re-read all the above and I recon there is an item on the market labeled "Cowboy Black Powder" by Goex ?? I am somewhat removed from the mainstream of new developement...
What is the difference ? Why is there a diffrence ?

[cajun shooter]

That's my question missionary. I guess the right person has not come on the site yet. The Goex site itself has no info. I was hoping to shoot the" HOLY Black" by my next match. I know I can e-mail Goex but then I left with what they in the PR dept wants me to know and not what happens when the average guy shoots the product.

[Muddy Creek Sam]

CS,

If you go on the SASS wire. My go to guy for all things BP is Fingers McGee. He has used about all of the powders available. I use the 2f and 3f strategy.

Sam :-D

[August]

Cowboy is mostly 2F, but has a significant portion of 3F mixed in. It should work well in both 45 and 38. My suggestion would be to use 1CC of powder in each and make up the difference in column height with some kind of wads (I use circle fly and cut them down to make the column come to the bottom of the boolit). SPG is great lube, but expensive. In yer cowboy gunz, any BP lube will be O.K. The trick is to carry enough lube to keep the gunz working throughout a match. Probably not possible with ordinary boolits. But a little cleaning between stages should keep ya' runnin'.

On the SG, may I suggest pink wads, a #40 powder bushing for your MEC, and a 7/8 ounce charge bar. With a tiny bit of compression, these will close up perfectly and run really well in yer gunz. MEC hoppers are anti-static. You'll hear guys say that plastic wads and BP are incompatible. That's hogwash. When cleaning, spray barrels with ballistol/H2O mix and let them sit for at least half an hour. After a half hour, running one wadded up paper towel down the barrels will have them clean. Oh, I use 2F in this application (either CTG Goex or Shutzen)

Start thinking about 44 WCF and 38 WCF gunz.

[montana_charlie]

I know I can e-mail Goex but then I left with what they in the PR dept wants me to know and not what happens when the average guy shoots the product.
Still...it wouldn't hurt anything to know what they have to say.
Are you worried they might lie to you?
How do you know I wouldn't?
CM

[Don McDowell]

That's my question missionary. I guess the right person has not come on the site yet. The Goex site itself has no info. I was hoping to shoot the" HOLY Black" by my next match. I know I can e-mail Goex but then I left with what they in the PR dept wants me to know and not what happens when the average guy shoots the product.

IF you go back to the Goex site and look under load data, under Cowboy acton you'll find plenty of data info for the cartridges you mentioned.
If you asked the folks at Goex about Cowboy powder you'll get the info they have on it as best they can tell you about the stuff , those folks shoot what they build.
As to going by what the "average guy" uses well it might translate into something that'll work for you and it might not. Lots of folks swear up and down Swiss , and Schuetzen are the only black powders fit to use, and that's just about 180 degrees out from what my rifles and pistols tell me.
Check Goex's site and find the nearest dealer to you, it can't be terrible far from your house to the Goex factory that shipping and hazmat might be a mute point.

[jonk]

Another warning- blackpowder in shotshells will do a nice job melting your shell. Use paper or brass.

[catkiller45]

I have looked at the Goex web sight and see nothing about a cowboy powder..

So just what is this powder you mention above?????????????

[waksupi]

I strongly suspect that the Cowboy designation is a marketing term, and you are still buying plain ol' BP.

[wills]

How about this?

http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php?topic=22812.0

[Don McDowell]

http://www.grafs.com/product/187992

http://www.goexpowder.com/load-chart.html

[John Boy]

Yep - my post. That's what one of the most authoritative original powder analyst in the US sieved it and passed on the information to me...
Goex Cowboy
20 mesh - 32.9% retained ... FFg
30 mesh - 64.9% retained ... FFFg
Through - 2.2% ... would be FFFFg

The FFFFg percentage just 'juices' up the burn rate ... so 'Cowboy' is really nothing special than a 33/65/2 mix of an ordinary batch of Goex sporting powder that CAS shooters swarm to because it's named Cowboy!

Is it anything unique? Nope, because if you separate the 20 and 30 mesh powder, it's still plain old FFg and FFFg.
Be sure to save the FFFFg for your Flinter [smilie=1:

So, if you want to be a hero at the match, saying you shoot 'Cowboy' - just buy a can of FFg - FFFg - FFFFg, mix them to the ratios above.

Here's what Powder Inc says about it ...
Special granulation for 40 grain loads and lighter. Will cause fouling if loaded
heavier than 40 grains. :violin: I've never shot any BP that doesn't cause fouling regardless of the charge!

And ... now you know the story of Cowboy ...'Special Granulation'!

PS: If you want to know the sieve ratios of different granulations for various vendors I posted on Shiloh Rifle Forum. Search on 'What's Inside the Can'. I sieved all of them with certified laboratory screens

[Springfield]

I load BP cartridges in my Dillon 550 all the time, for 5 years now.

[Doug Bowser]

I use a .44 Mag Rossi '92 carbine for BP loads. No card wad is needed. I did not see any advantage with or without the wad. The powder should be compressed 3/16". For consistent loads, always compress BP. I use FFG GOEX. Accuracy level is 3" at 100 yards.

For shotgun, I use:

65 gr FFFG GOEX
Circle Fly 1/8" over powder wad
2- 1/2" circle fly felt wads
1-1/8 ounce of shot

When I load the shotgun shells on my MEC 600, I set the wad pressure at 35 pounds. I read this after seating the 1/2" felt wads.

I use STS shells for BP and WW AA shells for smokeless. It keeps them separated. You will get a little plastic fouling in the bore, due to the plastic shotgun shells. It cleans out easily. If you use plastic wads, a lot more plastic residue will be left in the bore.

I have also loaded the shotgun load in paper shells. I had a friend give ma about 5000 paper shells in 12 ga. The were Federals and were 35 years old. I am still using them in my Stevens double.

[missionary5155]

Hey Thanks John Boy ! So "Cowboy" BP is just another sales Gimmic !

[cajun shooter]

John Boy, After a very long day of contacting several people that are involved in CAS I found out what you posted. I even spent an hour or two on the PC reading some posting by you. The person that I finally talked to that gave me your info made me swear never to let it out. I guess the cats out the bag!! I want to tell you also that I printed out alot of info to read at a later date and to use when this old mind slips out of gear. This sport is great! I talked to Fingers McGee and Dick Dastardly and both were more than helpful. PS I want to thank every person who took time to post an answer to help someone that feels that with the info provided they can now go over to the "DarkSide". Thanks Also to Muddy Creek Sam that steered me in the right direction!!

[montana_charlie]

Hey Thanks John Boy ! So "Cowboy" BP is just another sales Gimmic !
I would call it a 'blend of granulations' intended to provide acceptable results in very small cartridges. Goex Cartridge is a similar 'blend'...but intended for mid-sized rifle cases.

If you have the time and expertise to blend your own, then yeah...it's just a sales gimmick.
CM

[John Boy]

Gents, if you have an interest to see what other vendor/granulation's are ... here's what I did on a couple of 'boring days' after all my reloads were done (I did these sieve tests using certified laboratory screens and Dutch Bill provided me with some too )...

Inside the Cans: Some Pass-Hold Sieve Screen Ratios ... http://shilohrifle.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=10360

And have to admit - took some heat from a couple of nationally recognized names - you'll see their posts. Regardless, I sieve or sock many of the cans that I use to reload. Why? Look at the percent of fines. These little FFFFg grains ( 40 mesh or higher) are not evenly distributed in any given can and settle down to the bottom of a can. This will impact the SD's of a given batch of reloads with higher velocities compared to the larger grains at the top of the can

But then again - these AAA and master shooters have punched their cards. And I'm just a non-rated BPCR shooter that enjoys the sport and gets lucky :wink: hitting a 10" circle at 1000yds every now and then:
http://s222.photobucket.com/albums/dd220/Meadowmucker/Ridgway%20Oct%202008/?action=view&current=PDRM3576.jpg
http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd220/Meadowmucker/Ridgeway%20Oct%202007/PDRM2899.jpg?t=1226447230

Plus on other parts of Homer's 48 x 82" body ...
http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd220/Meadowmucker/Ridgeway%20Oct%202007/PDRM2767.jpg?t=1226446625

Plus can take down 500m Rams with a Uberti Henry loaded with CAS 45 Colts ...
http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd220/Meadowmucker/Ridgeway%20Oct%202007/PDRM2906.jpg?t=1226446732

I'm convinced - it's good to know ... What's Inside the Can!

[boommer]

Good to 40grs, your shooting 25 yards,a little cleaner, high priced . I just don't get it? This powder sounds like they sweep it of the the floor and put a marketing scam behind it (cowboy) and hope it flys. Tell me I'am wrong here!

[montana_charlie]

Good to 40grs, your shooting 25 yards,a little cleaner, high priced . I just don't get it? This powder sounds like they sweep it of the the floor and put a marketing scam behind it (cowboy) and hope it flys. Tell me I'am wrong here!
Maybe you're right. It may cost more because they have to pay somebody to sweep it up.

Luckily, you can buy cans of all three grades and mix your own...or just buy 2F and crush some of it.

CM

[Don McDowell]

I'm still sratching my head trying to figure how 40 cents is enough more expensive to get wound up about? Soon as I get that figured out then maybe we can get to the right and wrong of it?

[Catshooter]

John Boy,

That is quite the thread you linked. Talk about thread drift!

So did you ever figure out why and how often the can says 16 ounces and doesn't measure that? They seemed to miss that over there, or maybe I just didn't read far enough.


Cat

[Dale53]

I have loaded thousands of BPC loads for the .45 Colt (Ruger Bisley Vaquero and Vaquero). I have loaded Elephant, Goex, and Swiss. I used both 3F and 2F. There is a considerable difference in performance of the three powders and two granulations. All will shoot well but the velocity AND recoil are quite different (from least powerful to the most powerful - Elephant, Goex and Swiss). Velocity with Elephant 2f runs about 750 fps with a 250 gr cast bullet (Lyman 452664) to nearly 1000 fps with Swiss 3F.

My understanding is that Elephant is no longer being produced. Recoil with Swiss 3F is higher than I prefer for Cowboy use. Elephant 2F is just about right for me but alas, no longer available.

So, within my experience, my present standard is Goex 2F. Using normal standard pistol primers, I see NO need for a multi-grade of black powder. 2F Goex gives me what I need without excessive recoil for Cowboy and range use. If I were to go hunting with my BP .45 Colt, I would definitely use 3F Swiss for maximum power, velocity, and recoil.
Mike Venturino spells it all out in his book complete with chronograph data. My data confirms his.
FWIW

Dale53

[John Boy]

So did you ever figure out why and how often the can says 16 ounces and doesn't measure that? They seemed to miss that over there, or maybe I just didn't read far enough.
Cat, yes folks slid right over the short weight deal.
Why does it happen? Guess because cans are not filled accurately and I'll leave it at this: it happens more often with one vendor than with others