9mm Largo and 38 acp

[Battis]

My Astra 400 takes 9mm Largo and 38 ACP rounds. The rimless 9mm Largo headspaces on the case mouth. The semi-rimmed 38 ACP headspaces on the rim.
My 1903 Colt Hammer takes semi-rimmed .38 ACP. It also takes the rimless 9mm Largo, which headspaces on the case mouth in the Colt. The 9mm Largo case is slightly longer than the 38 ACP, which brings the 9mm Largo primer to the exact height in the chamber as the 38 ACP.
3.2 grs Bullseye works perfectly in each, with a 125 gr cast bullet sized to .356". I use 38 ACP/Super dies for the Astra and the Colt.
New Starline 9mm Largo brass measures .898" in length. Vintage 9mm Largo brass that I have measures .911". I think the shorter Starline brass might cause headspacing problems as it seats lower (further) in the Colt chamber.
The Astra and the 1908 Colt .25 have the same PITA barrel/slide assembly. Colt had Astra make the later Cubs.
What's all this rambling mean? Not sure. Just trying to tie the Astra/Colt connection in the early 1900s and even later.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Here's some rambling right back at you, probably with no real meaning or coherency. It's been accepted for years that the .38 ACP is fine to shoot in the Astra 400, and in later years of production they are stamped 9mm/.38 on the slides and some on the barrels. It is also cautioned, as I believe we might have discussed in the past, that .38 Super is too hot for the Astra, although there are lots of folks that have done it.

The Spanish were always great copiers of American-made guns, but I'd hesitate to say that they specifically copied the Colt auto's barrel system into the 400, as it was widely used in pistols of other makers as well--just about as common as semi-autos having slides. Could be, but the Astra is overall such a different pistol that I kind of doubt it. Look at the modern wonder nines for example, how many of them use a single large block on top of the barrel to lock the slide in the ejection port? So many that's it's uncommon to find one that uses a different system. Use of this system is so common that I think it's progressed past the point where you can say that it was copied.

Yes, in later years Astra did make the Colt Cubs, and someone else also-- was it Iver Johnson? I forget. Anyway, I'll be the Starline brass will work just fine in the 400. If you experience problems I, for one, would sure like to hear about it.

[Battis]

The Starline 9mm Largo brass works fine in the Astra but I think it's too short to work in the Colt. I have a box of 250 rounds of vintage 9mm Largo but each and every one is a dud, so I pull the bullets to use in the Astra. Too bad the brass is Berdan primed.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Yes--too bad about the Berdan primed brass. Too much of a hassle for pistol brass to convert them. But, thankfully, Starline has come through for us 400 owners, and one should stock up. I also have Star pistols that use that cartridge as well, "A"s and "Super A"s. I may have about 1,000 of the Spanish loads stored away, and the last time I shot some of it mine worked well; but I suspect some of it as being corrosive and usually utilize some from my CCI hoard or new reloads. For so many guns in 9mm Largo having been produced, it's surprising that good, new, commercial ammo isn't more available.

You have a valid observation that the new brass might be too short for the Colt, but should try it out as it will either work or not. I don't own one (a M1903 Colt) so would be interested in your results.

The 400s, and that family of Astra pistols, are certainly unique. They might have done some copying in the design, and something else that comes to mind is the old Savage pistols with the same general shape and recoil spring around the barrel. Maybe they did get the rotating barrel assembly idea from Colt, but the pistol is so different in other ways. Look at those "L" shaped pins that hold everything together! I guess, upon reconsideration, that most advancements in design are copied and/or improved to some extent -- kind of an evolutionary process. There haven't been too many firearms designers that came up with brand new, completely different concepts like John M. Browning often did. And, some of his ideas had been tried before but just didn't work well for the original designers. I can't think of anyone else that used the "L" shaped pins, so that idea seemed to die with the Astras, although it worked just fine.

Anyway, it's no secret that I'm a big Astra 400/600 fan. The little dinky sights aren't that good, but otherwise they are a great pistol. They worked. A piece of firearms history, that's for sure.

[oldsalt444]

I wouldn't be concerned about minor differences in case lengths. Like in the .45 ACP, the brass usually measures .898 new, and actually shortens with repeated reloadings. Chambers are normally cut to .905. In reality, the case is "headspacing" on the extractor claw and not in the chamber. I suspect the same thing may be happening with your 9mm Largo & 38 ACP.

Once I saw some bozo at the range who couldn't understand why his cases were bulged and splitting out of his 1911 .45 ACP, and the primer hits were way off center. I pointed out to him that he was shooting .40 S&W ammo instead of .45 ACP. I say this to illustrate how well the extractor will control the depth of the cartridge into the chamber, which is what happened when bozo loaded up his 1911 with the wrong ammo. So you certainly should have no problem with Starline brass.

[Battis]

I loaded a primed Starline 9mm Largo case and it fired in the Colt. I'll try a loaded round soon. I have an evil streak when it comes to the Astra - I enjoy watching people try to work the slide. Some have no problem, others think the slide is welded shut. The Colt 38 acp is a great shooter (no safety or slide stop). I recently got the 1903 Colt's grandson - a Rock Island 1911 .45. I wonder why I waited so long to get a 1911.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Yes, the Astra slide thing is fun, because a newbie doesn't expect that much resistance. Just as much fun is to watch someone who'd never handled one before attempt to open the bolt of a M95 straight-pull bolt action rifle. You got a 1911? It's all over now....you'll be hooked for life! So much more charisma than a fantastic plastic. :-D

[Battis]

It's a Rock Island 1911 .45 A1 Tactical II. I have a 1917 S&W .45 so I have plenty of brass (and moonclips) and dies, though I use the 45 AR brass more in the revolver.
I also have a M95 straight pull and about 100 rounds of that nasty surplus ammo. I call it the Hungarian Chiropractor.

[Drm50]

I load 38super brass for Astra, Star and Destroyer carbine. I thin rim of brass in lathe, from inside edge. I have found 38S brass is hard on extractor , especially on Star. Probably not necessary in Astra & Destoyer but I turn them all. In the Star & Astra I don't think I've ever fired 50rds without loosing a couple brass. My 38S brass is Rem and is new old stock from the 60s.