Weak Magazine Spring?

[xrider472]

Does this look like a weak magazine spring problem or possibly too heavy of a recoil spring or combination of both? Ruger SR1911. Factory magazine & springs. Lee 200g rnfp. 7.0g of Power Pistol. Chronograph shows about 965fps average velocity with shorter oal. Have tried overall lengths of 1.150" and 1.100" Same issue with either length.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191127/7322eb2257275f1ebf4f02453b69f499.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191127/7e441059f97e4c2b4a32c8b7ddef60ec.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191127/f64889029378293333edb76a4fe40dc2.jpg

[C.F.Plinker]

Very good pictures of a three point jam. Does this occur on the last round in the magazine as well as the first? The magazine spring pressure is somewhat lower when the last round is being fed than when the first round is feeding.

The overall length seem to be on the low side. Are you seating far enough out that you can crimp into the boolet crimp groove? What is the diameter of the crimp? .472, .470, .468 or some other number? My guns like a little bit of lead ahead of the cartridge mouth so the lead is what hits the feed ramp. Insufficient crimp could allow the round to hang up on either the barrel or frame feed ramp as it is being chambered.

If you hand feed a round does the head of the case come up behind the extractor? If it doesn't try a magazine that has a different release point. If it does, look at a 16 pound spring and see what that does.

Have you been able to try any different boolet (or bullet) profiles? Did any of them feed reliably?

[ioon44]

I had the same problem with a P-14 using a H&G 68 bullet, I replaced the magazine springs with Wolf extra power springs and now the gun runs 100%. Using a overall length of 1.150 could add to the problem, my H&G 68 is seated to 1.250".

[knifemaker]

If you suspect it is a magazine problem, the best way to cure that problem is to switch to Chip McCormack 8 round Shooting Star magazines. Those were the mags I used for shooting IDPA matches and for my LEO duty mags. They have a reputation for good feeding on 1911s that can be a problem with other mags. I would try the 1.250 COL first in case it is ammo related.

[35remington]

One of the three criteria for a three point jam is missing.
That is not a three point jam as the base of the case missed the breechface.

Getting the cart ahead of the horse. If the gun feeds factory ball properly it is not a recoil or magazine spring issue. It is an incorrect overall length issue.

1911s loathe short OAL rounds. Yours are very short, too short on my opinion. This bullet was not intended for 1911s and expecting it to feed improperly short rounds is more due to misunderstanding the firearm being the failure point. Generally speaking 1911s prefer OALs to approximate or exceed 1.2” or longer. Ball is about 1.265.”

Short rounds have an excessively low frame ramp strike, too steep a climb to the chamber, and often miss sliding under the extractor.

1911 101:

Don’t load whatever you feel like loading. Load what the gun will feed. The gun always wins and if you give it what it wants it works. If you don’t....it won’t. Simple as that.

Try factory ball. If it works you know what the problem is.

[35remington]

Three point jam criteria:

Base of case against bottom edge of breechface. Lower middle/front of case against barrel ramp. Bullet nose at or very near chamber roof. These three areas are why it is called a three point. The breechface contact is missing in this example. This is closer to a live round stovepipe. Short OAL needs to be investigated first as this requires no changes and is the most obvious thing to check.

[fenderman57]

I never could get that one to feed in an officers model or a SA XDS. I switched to this one http://arsenalmolds.com/products?product_id=212&limit=100 and found it 100% in both guns.

[35remington]

Fenderman is showing the way..if a bullet don’t feed, it’s probably the bullet. Better to switch than fight as you will just end up losing in more ways than one.

I could bore you with an exact list of why short rounds feed poorly. Suffice to say they completely compromise how a 1911 is intended to work. The shorter the round the more likely the malfunction. A constantly jamming pistol is annoying.

[Texas by God]

That bullet is meant for revolvers and lever action rifles. A TC shape is called for if you want flat nose performance in a .45 auto.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[Todd N.]

One of the three criteria for a three point jam is missing.
That is not a three point jam as the base of the case missed the breechface.

Getting the cart ahead of the horse. If the gun feeds factory ball properly it is not a recoil or magazine spring issue. It is an incorrect overall length issue.

1911s loathe short OAL rounds. Yours are very short, too short on my opinion. This bullet was not intended for 1911s and expecting it to feed improperly short rounds is more due to misunderstanding the firearm being the failure point. Generally speaking 1911s prefer OALs to approximate or exceed 1.2” or longer. Ball is about 1.265.”

Short rounds have an excessively low frame ramp strike, too steep a climb to the chamber, and often miss sliding under the extractor.

1911 101:

Don’t load whatever you feel like loading. Load what the gun will feed. The gun always wins and if you give it what it wants it works. If you don’t....it won’t. Simple as that.

Try factory ball. If it works you know what the problem is.

Exactly!

Good analysis and explanation of a classic issue. Thanks!

[Boogieman]

One of the three criteria for a three point jam is missing.
That is not a three point jam as the base of the case missed the breechface.

Getting the cart ahead of the horse. If the gun feeds factory ball properly it is not a recoil or magazine spring issue. It is an incorrect overall length issue.

1911s loathe short OAL rounds. Yours are very short, too short on my opinion. This bullet was not intended for 1911s and expecting it to feed improperly short rounds is more due to misunderstanding the firearm being the failure point. Generally speaking 1911s prefer OALs to approximate or exceed 1.2” or longer. Ball is about 1.265.”

Short rounds have an excessively low frame ramp strike, too steep a climb to the chamber, and often miss sliding under the extractor.

1911 101:

Don’t load whatever you feel like loading. Load what the gun will feed. The gun always wins and if you give it what it wants it works. If you don’t....it won’t. Simple as that.

Try factory ball. If it works you know what the problem is.
Read and reread this until you understand it. It will save a lot of time and trouble.

[xrider472]

First of all, thanks for all the replies. The reason for the short oal's is not being able to pass the plunk test with longer lengths. I knew it was probably too short, but thought I'd give it a shot. I guess I need to send the barrel to dougguy to be throated properly. This is the only boolit I've tried so far in this gun, but I have the Lee 230g TC traditional lube groove and the NOE 230 RN. Just didn't have any of those cast up right now to try.

[35remington]

Does factory ammo work?

[xrider472]

I don't think I've shot any factory ammo since I started handloading & casting in 2009. Lol. I'll try these next. NOE 230g RN at 1.230" & .470" crimp & 5.5g of hp-38. One change at a time. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191128/76c658a1e010c82e40d83a1f7b5eea38.jpg

[35remington]

Is that the longest OAL that will fit? If the ogive is correct ball duplication is found at 1.265” but that is in the range of what should work. In 1911’s and using tapered lip magazines as close to original spec the better.

One of the things to know when loading for 1911s is the standardized lengths for the various bullet types. This helps assure functioning.

[xrider472]

Is that the longest OAL that will fit? If the ogive is correct ball duplication is found at 1.265” but that is in the range of what should work. In 1911’s and using tapered lip magazines as close to original spec the better.

One of the things to know when loading for 1911s is the standardized lengths for the various bullet types. This helps assure functioning.I'll make a dummy round starting at 1.275" & work my way shorter to verify. These were some loads I had that worked well in a different 1911. I also have a couple of checkmate mags with the tapered lips you're referring to. The feeding problem with the rnfp Lee Boolit I referenced in my original post was even worse when I tried the original style tapered lips magazines. Thanks for the info. Now, if it would quit raining....

[35remington]

Tapered lip magazines are the original type or similar to the type specified by the designer of the 1911. We all know who that was.

The gun is most reliable when his design for magazines is used as well as ammo similar to that the gun feeds best. Expecting short ammo to run through those magazines will not work. This is absolutely not a magazine problem, but rather a poorly adapted ammo problem.

Try the ammo above loaded to 1.265” and see if it fits. If it does this is the most reliable configuration as it is exactly what the gun was designed to feed using magazines best adapted to feed it.

Tapered lip magazines make the ammo approach the chamber at a less steep angle than any other type making for more reliable feeding. An important component that goes hand in hand with that is correct ammo overall length.

Short ammo is inherently less reliable than correct length ammo no matter what magazine is used.

[xrider472]

Tapered lip magazines are the original type or similar to the type specified by the designer of the 1911. We all know who that was.

The gun is most reliable when his design for magazines is used as well as ammo similar to that the gun feeds best. Expecting short ammo to run through those magazines will not work. This is absolutely not a magazine problem, but rather a poorly adapted ammo problem.

Try the ammo above loaded to 1.265” and see if it fits. If it does this is the most reliable configuration as it is exactly what the gun was designed to feed using magazines best adapted to feed it.

Tapered lip magazines make the ammo approach the chamber at a less steep angle than any other type making for more reliable feeding. An important component that goes hand in hand with that is correct ammo overall length.

Short ammo is inherently less reliable than correct length ammo no matter what magazine is used.Thanks for all the info. Much appreciated. I think I'm going to need to get the barrel throated for those proper overall lengths. Probably send it to dougguy after the weekend. As for current configuration, on the NOE 230g RN, 1.245" is what it takes to pass the plunk test. As for the Lee 230g TC, 1.180". Lyman #4 cast book shows 1.170" for that boolit, but throating job should allow for longer length.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191129/50a88f1fd8cb493a64a877deeb0a586f.jpg

[35remington]

Correct for 230 TC is 1.200-1.220. Lyman suggestion is incorrect.

For HP that have ball ogive curvature about 1.200-1.210.”

HG 68 clones around 1.250”

Ball with correct 2 radius ogive 1.265.”

These dimensions make a 1911 happy.

Short nose SWC are nonstandard, and often necessitate earlier magazine release timing which compromises reliability. Deeper frame ramps and extractor hook radiusing all were an attempt to make 1911s run with short ammo it was never intended to run with. Even after modifications are done the gun is still more likely to run with correct ammo over too short ammo.

Right cartridge length, right magazines, curve in the ogive, and on cast bullets a radius on the edge of flat point bullets where the meplat meets the ogive is all beneficial. If you are loading ammo load for these parameters and the gun is more likely to work.

[xrider472]

Correct for 230 TC is 1.200-1.220. Lyman suggestion is incorrect.

For HP that have ball ogive curvature about 1.200-1.210.”

HG 68 clones around 1.250”

Ball with correct 2 radius ogive 1.265.”

These dimensions make a 1911 happy.

Short nose SWC are nonstandard, and often necessitate earlier magazine release timing which compromises reliability. Deeper frame ramps and extractor hook radiusing all were an attempt to make 1911s run with short ammo it was never intended to run with. Even after modifications are done the gun is still more likely to run with correct ammo over too short ammo.

Right cartridge length, right magazines, curve in the ogive, and on cast bullets a radius on the edge of flat point bullets where the meplat meets the ogive is all beneficial. If you are loading ammo load for these parameters and the gun is more likely to work.Thanks so much for the information. I now have these numbers written down in my 45 Auto notebook.

[Gray Fox]

It would seem to me that using the other molds you have to cast and load the boolits the 1911 was designed to shoot is a quicker and cheaper solution to your problem. GF

[Kirk Miller]

xrider472, The SR1911 was my first and up to last month, my only 1911. The Rugers do have short throats and mine would not chamber a HG 68 at more than 1.24. Doug Guy throated the barrel, polished the feed ramp and crowned it all for $60 with shipping @ insurance included. Now It feeds anything I put in it at the correct OAL. My new Dan Wesson is going to get the same treatment.
Good luck with your loading.
Kirk

[wv109323]

One thing you mentioned in your OP was about the recoil spring. A test for that is to load one round in a magazine. Fire the pistol several times like this, if the slide locks back then the recoil spring is allowing the slide to travel the entire length
With your load ,it was well above the area I would question this with a standard 16 lb.. spring.

[Divil]

For the Lee 200gr. RNFP, I used to load commercial cast variants of the bullet at 1.175-1.185 COAL. You may want to try that specific length range. I now use a home cast 185 gr. RNFP/TL (Accurate Custom Mold 45-185-O to be precise)of that bullet loaded to a nominal 1.180 and my Kimber eats it 100%.

[BD]

IMO Xrider's COAL is too short. The shortest I've had luck with a 200 gr RNFP is 1.185, (and that was AnthonyB's cowboy style mold).
That's a familiar looking boolit from arsenal molds fenderman. Should work well.

[fenderman57]

BD, that arsenal mold one sized at .452 with an OAL of 1.2".feeds 100% in a 4"1911& a 3.3"xds. With my alloy, it weighs 235grs.And shoots to point of aim at 25yds. I like it real well.

[BD]

252394.
It looks familiar as I think it is just a slight refinement of the BDacp from years ago. This was one of the early 6 gang group buy molds from Lee

[Petrol & Powder]

I'm in the camp of "change the bullet, not the barrel".

My 1911 experience spans several decades with a big gap in the middle. In the beginning of that experience I leaned heavily towards the 230 grain bullet weights with a few of the old Speer 200 grain "flying ashtray" bullets in the rotation.
When I came back to the 1911, I was casting bullets. I landed on the 200 grain H&G #68 style bullet and that has been an outstanding bullet.

I agree that the RNFP is a bullet far better suited for revolvers than pistols.


While there's nothing wrong with having the barrel throated, I would start with finding a better bullet.

There's nothing wrong with that factory magazine.

[xrider472]

xrider472, The SR1911 was my first and up to last month, my only 1911. The Rugers do have short throats and mine would not chamber a HG 68 at more than 1.24. Doug Guy throated the barrel, polished the feed ramp and crowned it all for $60 with shipping @ insurance included. Now It feeds anything I put in it at the correct OAL. My new Dan Wesson is going to get the same treatment.
Good luck with your loading.
KirkThanks Kirk. I just sent two barrels to Doug less than a week ago. They are in transit back to me as I type this. Looking forward to getting them back.

[xrider472]

One thing you mentioned in your OP was about the recoil spring. A test for that is to load one round in a magazine. Fire the pistol several times like this, if the slide locks back then the recoil spring is allowing the slide to travel the entire length
With your load ,it was well above the area I would question this with a standard 16 lb.. spring.I believe it's probably an 18lb just comparing how thick & stiff it looks versus a known 16lb. A little harder to hand cycle the slide also.

[35remington]

Still plenty of load for an 18. The spring is not the issue as mentioned.

[Lloyd Smale]

get a Wilson or chip McCormick mag and see if it does it with them. If it does its a gun problem. If it doesn't its a mag problem. never saw a good 1911 that didn't run well with Wilson mags.

[xrider472]

Well, I got my two 1911 barrels back from Doug about a week or so ago. So far so good. I put fifty rounds through each one of them with the Lee 230g TC on top of 5.5g of HP-38. OAL=1.210"
Zero malfunctions!!

[6bg6ga]

Brownells sells a nice magazine that feeds anything into a 1911. I had a 1911 that wouldn't accept anything except 230RN bullets and upon switching to this magazine I could run everything I cast thru it without a problem. I sincerely doubt its any kind of spring problem. I would consider an operator problem before a spring problem. I've seen people limp wrist a 1911 and stove pipe every round they tried to run thru it.

[35remington]

Let me caution that it is quite possible to load ammo that will jam a 1911 no matter what magazine you are using. Magazines that feed one type of ammo often feed another type less well.

Do not fall into the trap of believing “if I only had XX brand magazine I can shoot whatever ammo or bullet my hands can craft.”

Not true.

As mentioned, the 1911 has preferences in ammo OAL and bullet ogive shape. The further one strays from that the more likely the gun is to choke.

It is also true that if a gun is feeding, it may not be feeding correctly in so doing, and the interval between one jam to the next is dramatically shortened. Reliability testing occurs over many rounds fired, not just a few. A gun that jams anything other that very very infrequently is a paperweight rather than a gun if serious use is contemplated.

[Greg S]

Get a couple a rounds of factory ball and see if it will pass the plunck test. If not, throat barrel before you start changing spring ect. Try the230 noe at 1.250 1.265. You might need to size to .451 to accomplish this.