General ML accuracy questions

[John McCorkle]

As I understand it, overshot cards/wads help to create a seal for gas blowby which results in more consistent velocity/pressure and results in better accuracy...I would assume on conical loads it helps to protect the bullet base too? Am I missing anything about wads/overshot cards?

Is there any harm or danger (aside from a potential negative impact on accuracy) for putting an overshot card and/or wad on all BP loads? If I understand correctly what they do why not use them all the time (I guess for Minnie ball that would cause a problem as the wad or card could jam into the skirt)

Can I test with variables such as felt wad, over powder card, powdered fillers in the load stack to see what works best? Or is this futile. My goal is to get as good a seal behind that boolit as possible to eliminate variables in velocity and pressure...but not sure if I can try too much or too many variables and introduce additional accuracy sapping potential

Second question is loading procedure and bouncing the rod. I bounce the loading rod to ensure I have a slightly compressed load and no airspace. Wouldn't this deform the boolit? Does this effect accuracy?



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[brewer12345]

Try with and without a wad or card. My tc rifles both wanted a wad to shoot conicals, the 54 showed much improved prb groups with a wad. Other rifles don't seem to need them.

[rbuck351]

If you happen to shoot 54 cal, a 28ga shotgun shotcup wad works really well. I drop in a 50 cal rb and put a gob of lube in the center compression part of the wad. They go down the barrel very easy shot after shot and my 54 cal CVA shoots them into about 1 1/4" at 50yds. May shoot better if I had better eyes. I assume it seals the bore very well and also seems to lube the bore very well. Not very traditional but it works.

[shortlegs]

A friend of mine uses cotton balls between the powder and patched ball. 200 yd shots are no problem for him. (I have trouble seeing that far)

[waksupi]

You do not need to bounce the ramrod. I hate seeing people doing that.

[Mac118]

I use a felt wad smeared with lube under my conical bullets for both .40 and .50. The .40 I shoot at 200 yards and get consistent results.

[dave951]

As I understand it, overshot cards/wads help to create a seal for gas blowby which results in more consistent velocity/pressure and results in better accuracy...I would assume on conical loads it helps to protect the bullet base too? Am I missing anything about wads/overshot cards?

Is there any harm or danger (aside from a potential negative impact on accuracy) for putting an overshot card and/or wad on all BP loads? If I understand correctly what they do why not use them all the time (I guess for Minnie ball that would cause a problem as the wad or card could jam into the skirt)


Second question is loading procedure and bouncing the rod. I bounce the loading rod to ensure I have a slightly compressed load and no airspace. Wouldn't this deform the boolit? Does this effect accuracy?

First off, yes, over powder cards help with some boolits, but not all especially with minies. We shoot minies in competition in the NSSA and wads are a no no and absolutely not good for accuracy. The only way to tell is experiment.

Second, bouncing the ramrod? Really? I mean we go to great lengths casting perfect boolits looking for accuracy and then slapping them out of shape with a ramrod makes zero sense. That said, consistent seating pressure does help in round ball and conicals. Last summer, I worked on a project teaching Scouts muzzleloading. We used Zouave muskets with minies. I ran one of the muskets in an open shoot for over 50 shots straight with no wiping and no loss of accuracy. The gun was never got worse than it was at the third shot for fouling. When ramming, one firm, smooth stroke down, remove ramrod, cap and shoot.

[John McCorkle]

Thanks for the replies, I experimented with my online to find durofelt was under my Lee REAL was the ticket ...man this things are accurate (at least for my rifle) but only mediocre without a felt wad.

I'm prepping for a TC hawken in 50 I was gifted and want to shoot roundballs as accurately as can be achieved. But in my experimentation I want to know what to attempt vs what has no value.

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[charlie b]

For round balls just patch and shoot. You could try different lubes with the patches to see which you like best, from water or spit to specially formulated goo. I have found that adding a 'wad' to the PRB did nothing for me and sometimes made the load shoot worse.

Wads are there to help upset the bullet into the grooves on firing. Keeps the gases from 'leaking' and eroding the bullet. Minie or other hollow base bullets really do not need them as the hollow cavity is designed to do the same thing. Which wad is up to the rifle and bullet.

I had best luck with a card wad and felt wad, but, I mostly shot paper patched bullets so the felt wad was needed to help keep the fouling soft. I would seat the card on top of the powder, using quite a bit of compression on it. Then load the felt wad and bullet at the same time. Mine were sized for a slip fit in the bore (the weight of the ramrod would seat the bullet).

[Maven]

... bouncing the ramrod? Really? I mean we go to great lengths casting perfect boolits looking for accuracy and then slapping them out of shape with a ramrod makes zero sense. That said, consistent seating pressure does help in round ball and conicals. ...dave951

Couldn't have said it better myself!

[rfd]

there is a viable worth to "bouncing the rod" for some guns and shooters, and i will always load in that manner.

[indian joe]

there is a viable worth to "bouncing the rod" for some guns and shooters, and i will always load in that manner.

I wouldnt call my deal bouncing ----but three firm bumps from about three inches above the ball --
Shoot a ml over a chronygraph and ya might be amazed / dismayed at the velocity variation from just a little variation in loading pressure (I was anyway)

Heard or read this ditty someplace many years ago

" If ya wanna kill em dead
Ram tha powder NOT tha lead"

Something from the old days - I have no idea what where or when - but its got in my head and never left...........

[John McCorkle]

I wouldnt call my deal bouncing ----but three firm bumps from about three inches above the ball --
Shoot a ml over a chronygraph and ya might be amazed / dismayed at the velocity variation from just a little variation in loading pressure (I was anyway)

Heard or read this ditty someplace many years ago

" If ya wanna kill em dead
Ram tha powder NOT tha lead"

Something from the old days - I have no idea what where or when - but its got in my head and never left...........Great little rhyme...does any manufacturer make a flat face attachment for packing powder?

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[PapaG]

Card wad under the ball worked for me in the rifle-musket with round ball. Don't put anything over the ball as you can ruin a barrel if the ball overruns the wad.

[bob208]

I have shot in many matches. I have seen guys bouncing the ramrod they have never finished in the prizes . ramrod bouncing and accuracy do not go hand and hand.

[charlie b]

Great little rhyme...does any manufacturer make a flat face attachment for packing powder?

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I use the cleaning jag. It is near enough to bore dia and seats the card wad on top of the powder nicely with as much pressure as you want.

I never understood why the rod is bounced. If you need to compress the load then just apply pressure to the rod. If not enough to grab onto then drill a short hole in your starter handle and use it on the rod.

[megasupermagnum]

Wow, that is one of the simplest ideas I've heard. I doubt it will help my dismal (compared to target shooters) accuracy. I'll try seating my felt wad first on the powder, and then seating the ball on top of that.

[indian joe]

I have shot in many matches. I have seen guys bouncing the ramrod they have never finished in the prizes . ramrod bouncing and accuracy do not go hand and hand.

252406252407
it worked for me a couple times

[Edward]

Wow, that is one of the simplest ideas I've heard. I doubt it will help my dismal (compared to target shooters) accuracy. I'll try seating my felt wad first on the powder, and then seating the ball on top of that.

Not the felt wad , the card is over the powder (THEN) the felt wad

[Hickory]

You do not need to bounce the ramrod. I hate seeing people doing that.

Never could figure out why anyone would want to deform their balls doing this!
One mans pudding is another mans poison!

[rfd]

... I never understood why the rod is bounced. If you need to compress the load then just apply pressure to the rod. If not enough to grab onto then drill a short hole in your starter handle and use it on the rod.

don't be too eager to dismiss what may seem like nonsense. in reality it (the bouncing) works quite well, has no negative effect on accuracy, insures no air spaces in the tube, the ball is not "deformed" via the rod, compacts (not compresses) the main charge, and it's done me well in woods walks and stake cutting matches. hammered or smacked hard short starter tight target loads have a far greater chance of ball deforming and yet accuracy is far from compromised.

[dave951]

don't be too eager to dismiss what may seem like nonsense. in reality it (the bouncing) works quite well, has no negative effect on accuracy, insures no air spaces in the tube, the ball is not "deformed" via the rod, compacts (not compresses) the main charge, and it's done me well in woods walks and stake cutting matches. hammered or smacked hard short starter tight target loads have a far greater chance of ball deforming and yet accuracy is far from compromised.

Do that with a minie and you're asking to screw up accuracy. You'll get random flyers with no obvious reason other than slapping that ramrod down on the bullet. So, not necessary even with round ball, apply firm pressure the same every time for accuracy. Accuracy is born of consistency and quality, never just one alone.

[charlie b]

Still seems to me that a good shove on the ramrod will accomplish the same thing. And I never used a tight enough load that I needed to smack the bullet. That also seemed counter to good accuracy. I guess the range being fired at has a lot to do with it. Under 100yd and it probably doesn't make any difference.

[John McCorkle]

So next question is...how do you ensure you have consistent pressure while pushing on the rod? Besides feel, which I imagine will vary based on alot of factors but I'd be interesting to see what feels the same in one scenario vs another and actual pressure measured by a scale or other method....I'm sure it would vary enough to matter.

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[rfd]

So next question is...how do you ensure you have consistent pressure while pushing on the rod? Besides feel, which I imagine will vary based on alot of factors but I'd be interesting to see what feels the same in one scenario vs another and actual pressure measured by a scale or other method....I'm sure it would vary enough to matter.

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a good and most appropriate question. for the first patched ball of the day, going down a clean tube, the push/tamp should be consistent and easy. this will be mostly true if fouling is addressed for all subsequent loads. if no fouling control is accomplished, there will be varying amounts of BP residue in varying parts of the tube, and typically just ahead of the chamber area. these speed bumps along the path of the patched ball will have varying degrees of resistance to the push, dependent on factors such as, residue softness (this is where blowing down the tube can help), how long one waits to load (allowing the residue to cake/dry), how tight the patched ball, and what kind of patching lube. there are other concerns if the breech has an ante-chamber ("patent").

[John McCorkle]

a good and most appropriate question. for the first patched ball of the day, going down a clean tube, the push/tamp should be consistent and easy. this will be mostly true if fouling is addressed for all subsequent loads. if no fouling control is accomplished, there will be varying amounts of BP residue in varying parts of the tube, and typically just ahead of the chamber area. these speed bumps along the path of the patched ball will have varying degrees of resistance to the push, dependent on factors such as, residue softness (this is where blowing down the tube can help), how long one waits to load (allowing the residue to cake/dry), how tight the patched ball, and what kind of patching lube. there are other concerns if the breech has an ante-chamber ("patent").There is alot there to think about then. I'm thinking from a benchrest perspective...like the guys who shoot those gigantic slug guns for the MLRA matches....how do they return the barrel to a consistent condition for the next shot? How much of that is applicable to hunters and muzzleloader shooters like me. I'll be shooting from a clean bore when it matters most (on deer, most likely will not have fired a round yet) but should I fire a load first then do whatever I do for swabbing/conditioning the bore for the next shot to be consistent with my practice bore condition?

My ultimate goal (at this point) is to have Rock solid confidence in shot placement when I am out hunting game... not necessarily target shooting though there is an awful lot of overlap. I want to know that with all the factors in play that negativity effect accuracy I can still place that ball right where it needs to be for an ethical shot. This means alot of practice and I don't want to practice one way and hunt a different...is a "fouling shot" a wives tale of is this something to consider?

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[rfd]

put in some good shooting time with a good load process. probably best initially done off the bench to set the sights, then move to offhand. this will help you on many levels to gain both knowledge and experience of the gun, components, and shooting process. really no substitute for just doing, and in as quality a manner as possible.

[indian joe]

don't be too eager to dismiss what may seem like nonsense. in reality it (the bouncing) works quite well, has no negative effect on accuracy, insures no air spaces in the tube, the ball is not "deformed" via the rod, compacts (not compresses) the main charge, and it's done me well in woods walks and stake cutting matches. hammered or smacked hard short starter tight target loads have a far greater chance of ball deforming and yet accuracy is far from compromised.

I agree ...specially about the mallet loading technique

However - maybe we need to define bouncing the rod ?

I use three solid bumps from about three inches off the ball - as consistent and even as I can do it from shot to shot - not slamming it - just firm (I bet RFD does something similar or at least similarly consistent)

Have seen blokes kinda throw the rod down onto the load from halfway up the tube and watch it "bounce" back off the load (heavy stainless range rod) .....looks kinda silly to me and how would you get it consistent?

[megasupermagnum]

There is alot there to think about then. I'm thinking from a benchrest perspective...like the guys who shoot those gigantic slug guns for the MLRA matches....how do they return the barrel to a consistent condition for the next shot? How much of that is applicable to hunters and muzzleloader shooters like me. I'll be shooting from a clean bore when it matters most (on deer, most likely will not have fired a round yet) but should I fire a load first then do whatever I do for swabbing/conditioning the bore for the next shot to be consistent with my practice bore condition?

My ultimate goal (at this point) is to have Rock solid confidence in shot placement when I am out hunting game... not necessarily target shooting though there is an awful lot of overlap. I want to know that with all the factors in play that negativity effect accuracy I can still place that ball right where it needs to be for an ethical shot. This means alot of practice and I don't want to practice one way and hunt a different...is a "fouling shot" a wives tale of is this something to consider?

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This is something you have to try, as some guns shoot fine from a clean bore, some need a fouled bore, and most somewhere between. What I'm doing this year is a clean gun, but oiled with my patch lube. This provides a first shot right in the center of the group everytime I've tried it so far. Just today I shot the rifle I loaded Saturday morning loaded in this manner. Dead center of the 5 shot group. This only worked with a patched round ball. I could not get a conical, either a custom mold or the Lee REAL, to group on a clean bore, and they shot significantly off from a fouled bore. About 6" right.

I don't have any dog in this fight when it comes to loading technique. I have always been one to use a firm push to seat. Bouncing the rod obviously works for some, but I just never saw the point. Any load I've tried worth anything as far as accuracy would not be moved at all by tip tapping from dropping the ramrod 3". That's a cool experiment for me to try though. Run 10 shots over the chronograph of each style, and see which works best.

@Edwards, I am not using a card wad. In the rifle I shot today, I am only using one 1/8" felt wad, followed by the patched ball. The only reason I use it is to protect the powder from possible lube contamination from a long time sit. I did try compressing the powder first today with the felt wad, then seating the ball firmly on top, but not compressing farther. Lo and behold I actually got some of my best groups yet. Maybe I had a good day, maybe the wind finally cooperated, but I managed a true 4" five shot group at 100 yards today. I even practiced some field shooting at 75, and still got some of my best accuracy to date. That's the first decent 100 yard accuracy from this rifle with a PRB, and I didn't change anything except pre-compressing the powder.

[charlie b]

Yep, I found with shooting conicals that compressing the load made a lot of difference. I used a card and felt wad under the paper patched or lubed slug. The bullets were a slip fit (not for hunting) so a slight push was all that was needed to seat.

These did shoot different with a fouled bore. First shot was usually 3-4" high at 100yd, then the rest in less than 2" group (not great but was good enough for my use). It was 'minute of deer' but something to know about your rifle. I would usually shoot a 10 shot string before wiping again. As an alternative I could wipe between shots and all went where the cold shot went. Wiping was two damp patches, two dry patches for every shot.

Like rfd posted, practice like you hunt, and practice a lot. Be consistent, especially with follow through. The last is probably as much 'insurance' as accuracy. If your follow through is good then a slight ignition delay won't screw up a trophy shot.

[indian joe]

There is alot there to think about then. I'm thinking from a benchrest perspective...like the guys who shoot those gigantic slug guns for the MLRA matches....how do they return the barrel to a consistent condition for the next shot? How much of that is applicable to hunters and muzzleloader shooters like me. I'll be shooting from a clean bore when it matters most (on deer, most likely will not have fired a round yet) but should I fire a load first then do whatever I do for swabbing/conditioning the bore for the next shot to be consistent with my practice bore condition?

My ultimate goal (at this point) is to have Rock solid confidence in shot placement when I am out hunting game... not necessarily target shooting though there is an awful lot of overlap. I want to know that with all the factors in play that negativity effect accuracy I can still place that ball right where it needs to be for an ethical shot. This means alot of practice and I don't want to practice one way and hunt a different...is a "fouling shot" a wives tale of is this something to consider?

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Shoot it off a good rest !! and pay attention to where they go

Many muzzle loaders will put the first shot from a cold clean barrel 2 to 4 inches out of the following group at 100 yards .....some will not ......that first shot is the moneyshot for a hunter so pay close attention to where it places in relation to the following few shots

If you have access to a chronograph practice your loading technique and shoot over the chrony

Others may have different opinion but I reckon lube is the major key to consistent accuracy - for hunting you need a stiffer lube that wont migrate into the powder at all and will still let you load the tenth shot as easy as the second without cleaning ---magic when you find it

[indian joe]

Yep, I found with shooting conicals that compressing the load made a lot of difference. I used a card and felt wad under the paper patched or lubed slug. The bullets were a slip fit (not for hunting) so a slight push was all that was needed to seat.

These did shoot different with a fouled bore. First shot was usually 3-4" high at 100yd, then the rest in less than 2" group (not great but was good enough for my use). It was 'minute of deer' but something to know about your rifle. I would usually shoot a 10 shot string before wiping again. As an alternative I could wipe between shots and all went where the cold shot went. Wiping was two damp patches, two dry patches for every shot.

Like rfd posted, practice like you hunt, and practice a lot. Be consistent, especially with follow through. The last is probably as much 'insurance' as accuracy. If your follow through is good then a slight ignition delay won't screw up a trophy shot.

IF you are shooting lead out of a muzzle loader (anything lead out of any ML) into less than a 2" group at 100 yards and calling it "not great" then you have been inflicted with one of several possible maladies
1)inability to read a measuring stick
2) a disease some would call unrealistic expectations
seriously ! if you can put em in "less than 2inches" with any kind of smokeypole - go away happy - it dont get better than that

[rfd]

I agree ...specially about the mallet loading technique

However - maybe we need to define bouncing the rod ?

I use three solid bumps from about three inches off the ball - as consistent and even as I can do it from shot to shot - not slamming it - just firm (I bet RFD does something similar or at least similarly consistent)

Have seen blokes kinda throw the rod down onto the load from halfway up the tube and watch it "bounce" back off the load (heavy stainless range rod) .....looks kinda silly to me and how would you get it consistent?

i'm in accord with ya on all of the above, sir.

as to the rod, it should be of good wood, as God intended - not metal (nor of some modern space-age material). i use a brass rod for its added weight only whilst ramming, spearing, skewering, and lifting out an errant dry ball. yes, i confess to dry balling every once in a blue moon. advancing age plays tricks and havoc with attention span at times. and so, therefore ... er, i forgot what i was just about type. oops. :shock: :mrgreen:

cheers, mate!

[charlie b]

IF you are shooting lead out of a muzzle loader (anything lead out of any ML) into less than a 2" group at 100 yards and calling it "not great" then you have been inflicted with one of several possible maladies
1)inability to read a measuring stick
2) a disease some would call unrealistic expectations
seriously ! if you can put em in "less than 2inches" with any kind of smokeypole - go away happy - it dont get better than that

LOL, yeah I should be happy about it, but, I'd rather have one hole :)

[Edward]

I use a bear oil lubed wad over a card over powder under my patched ball . If I want the most accuracy and time doesn"t matter it works for me /Ed

[rfd]

ed, forgot to mention that i got to use your bear oil and it's really Really good. just used it to lube the patches for .530 balls loaded in the .54 colonial flinter. for top accuracy and no fouling control needed, yer bear oil is Excellent .... Thank You!

[John McCorkle]

ed, forgot to mention that i got to use your bear oil and it's really Really good. just used it to lube the patches for .530 balls loaded in the .54 colonial flinter. for top accuracy and no fouling control needed, yer bear oil is Excellent .... Thank You!What's this "bear oil"?

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[rfd]

"bear oil" is rendered bear fat.

[John McCorkle]

"bear oil" is rendered bear fat.Well that makes sense. Thought it was a commercial or semi commercial lube

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