Does Anyone Shoot Black in .30-06?

[CoryT]

Hi everyone,
New to this forum and very new to BPCR. I have a Marlin .45-70 GBL that I have been contemplating shooting black in for a few years now, which is what brought me to this site. Lots of reading. I have been loading it smokeless with pure lead casted .459-405HB at very modest trapdoor levels to accuracy I am quite pleased with, so now next level. I pan lube with a beeswax/tallow/olive oil lube at a ratio of 40/40/20ish percentage.
As well I have a TC Encore with a couple .30-06 barrels and am wondering about making one of them exclusively black loads with cast bullet. I am having a harder time finding info on that. Anybody with advice? What about a good cast bullet advice in the 180-220gr range?
Cory

[Huvius]

Don’t be fooled with the notion that black powder is a low pressure propellant.
Also, fouling in small bore BP rifles is a much more significant problem than it is in a big bore rifle.
In the 30’06 it could very well be a bad idea.
The 303 British was originally a black powder cartridge and these two factors made that a short lived experiment.

[Boz330]

What Huvius said. I tried BP in a Swedish roller in 8MM and it was a nightmare with the fouling.

Bob

[40-82 hiker]

I have to agree with the previous responses. Back around '70 I tried 30-06 with BP and 180 grain cast. I thought I was on to something, which turned out to be a dismal mess. I made this decision after one "short" time at the range with those "new" cartridges. I would recommend you not waste your time. YMMV

[Don McDowell]

The twist of most 30-06 barrels is to fast to stabilize bullets at black powder velocity. Fouling can be dealt with in your Encores, but there's still that low velocity problem.

[CoryT]

Well, ok then. Very glad I asked and you folks responded!
Thank you all and I will most definitely remove this from my thoughts.
Cory

[30calflash]

How about a duplex load with smokeless for a priming charge?

Al Miller did use it in 30-30 years back, was listed in a handloader article. Low velocity for small game and target use.

[17nut]

I have shot a lot of black in my 1911 45ACP :-)
14 grains 4f and a jacketed 230gr and it shoots great all day.
It does need a lot of cleaning afterwards, but it's fun.

I do not see why not trying jacketed bullets and black in a 30-06!

After all the 8x58RD was designed for black and jacketed.

[CoryT]

I do not see why not trying jacketed bullets and black in a 30-06!

After all the 8x58RD was designed for black and jacketed.

Hmmm... Interesting. I have no idea?? As I said, brand new to black powder cartridge. Is this something worth pursuing?
Cory

[Edward]

I have shot a lot of black in my 1911 45ACP :-)
14 grains 4f and a jacketed 230gr and it shoots great all day.
It does need a lot of cleaning afterwards, but it's fun.

I do not see why not trying jacketed bullets and black in a 30-06!

After all the 8x58RD was designed for black and jacketed.

I think the previous replies answered that and the why ,I think they know what they know .

[beltfed]

Remember, as has been said, the Brits actually issued martini rifles, caliber 303Brit
loaded with 70 gr of heavily compressed Black powder under a jacketed bullet @ something
like 230 grains bullet weight.
It was only the intro of smokeless that made things easier going forward, particularly in
the trend to smaller calibers.
I have shot 303 Brit with the original issue 70 gr BP under a 311284 bullet. It works. Chrono's
about 1700fps. Also did the same with my 30 US Ruger No 1. ( 30-40K)
Don, its not about the "fast" twist "at BP velocities".
I got Very Good accuracy with 9 gr Unique under the 311316-115 gr bullet thru my '03 Springfield
and its 10 twist barrel. BP type velocities in low teens. 1.1 minute accuracy
Indeed the fouling issue is what its all about. Duplex should help a LOT
beltfed/arnie

[Don McDowell]

Arnie, I doubt that blackpowder would generate as much velocity as that famous 9 gr of unique load out of the 06. So I wouldn't expect much in accuracy. As to the fouling OP said he was going to try it in an Encore, that break action single shot, would make fouling a total non issue, wiping between shots.

[Kev18]

Try it... Wont hurt anything. People are saying not to because it fouls. TRUE.
barrel twist also comes into play and all. But just try it and see if you like it. You dont need to buy a 50lbs barrel of the stuff. 2f 1lb is around 30-40$ around here.

Dont go to bed wondering if it will work. Try it.

I did with my rifle. I wanted to make new loads. So I tried everything. BP, Duplex loads, iv'e tried every powder. In the end, I came with a nice conclusion.

Doesnt mean it will work, but you'll get it off your mind for real! :)

[M-Tecs]

Lets take an actual historical look at smaller bore Blackpowder cartridges. The first was the 22 Short and yes it was loaded very successfully with Blackpowder starting in 1857. https://www.chuckhawks.com/history_rimfire_ammo.htm I am not sure when they stopped loading BP in 22 rimfires but I remember reading they were still available after WWI

Same for the 303 Brit. Same for the 32/40. Both started life with BP as the only option. The 25/20 and 32/20 were quite successful back in the day.

Basically any cartridge before 1890 was loaded with BP regardless of bore size.

The famous Rowland/Pope group was set with BP 32 caliber with a smokeless kicker duplex https://castbulletassoc.org/forum/thread/1982-c-w-roland/

American riflemen have always considered the group of ten shots at 200 yards fired by Mr. C. W. Rowland of Boulder, Colorado on May 16, 1901 as being the World's Record for accuracy. Other rifles and ammunition which have made records at longer distances have never equaled this at 200 yards, and thus we think that this target can be properly regarded as The Record.
Mr. Rowland's target, which is reproduced here in the exact size from the original, was shot with a .32-40 breech-muzzle loading barrel made by H. M. Pope, in a Ballard action. It was shot from a machine rest, probably the Pope rest, in which the naked barrel is uniformly rested at the breech and close to the muzzle, the rifle being shot with its butt-stock on it, and the butt-plate being caught and braked by the hand after a short recoil travel. The charge was a lead alloy bullet of unknown weight (probably 180 to 200 grains) lubricated with Leopold's lubricant (same as the present Ideal Lubricant), and propelled by a charge of Hazards FG black powder. The bullet was loaded from the muzzle in the usual Pope manner, and the case filled with powder inserted from the breech. Mr. Rowland has noted the weather as “No wind,” and “Sprinkling;” conditions most favorable for black powder.

https://www.assra.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?num=1543697055/15

Found on the web at Cast Bullets. Looks like they are giving center to center, of .725-inch for the Rowland record group.

The Ultimate in Rifle Precision

By: Townsend Whelen

Sportsman's Press, 1951



THE WORLD'S RECORD AT 200 YARDS

American riflemen have always considered the group of ten shots at 200 yards fired by Mr. C. W. Rowland of Boulder, Colorado on May 16, 1901 as being the World's Record for accuracy. Other rifles and ammunition which have made records at longer distances have never equaled this at 200 yards, and thus we think that this target can be properly regarded as The Record.

Mr. Rowland's target, which is reproduced here in the exact size from the original, was shot with a .32-40 breech-muzzle loading barrel made by H. M. Pope, in a Ballard action. It was shot from a machine rest, probably the Pope rest, in which the naked barrel is uniformly rested at the breech and close to the muzzle, the rifle being shot with its butt-stock on it, and the butt-plate being caught and braked by the hand after a short recoil travel. The charge was a lead alloy bullet of unknown weight (probably 180 to 200 grains) lubricated with Leopold's lubricant (same as the present Ideal Lubricant), and propelled by a charge of Hazards FG black powder. The bullet was loaded from the muzzle in the usual Pope manner, and the case filled with powder inserted from the breech. Mr. Rowland has noted the weather as “No wind,” and “Sprinkling;” conditions most favorable for black powder.

Mr. Rowland's target has been measured very carefully. There is no way to measure it with a great degree of accuracy that I know of, so I will outline the manner in which it was measured. We made this assumption: in the target above the record target there is one distinct bullet hole. The assumption is that this shot displaced the same amount of paper as the shots in the record target. This seems to be a safe assumption as presumably the rifle, paper and bullet were the same.

We measured this single hole quite carefully”€�optically under 4X magnification. The average diameter of this hole is .245-inch. Then we carefully measured the extreme spread of the record group”€�that is the extreme of the displaced paper. This figure is .970-inch. Subtracting the diameter of a single bullet hole (.245” displaced paper) gives an extreme spread, center to center, of .725-inch for the Rowland record group.

http://blog.westernpowders.com/2017/11/schuetzen-the-purest-form-of-competitive-shooting/

[smithnframe]

Elmer Keith wrote about using BP in the 30/06.......he said using as much BP as you can get in the case and properly seat the bullet he was getting around 1500 f.p.s.

[M-Tecs]

Don’t be fooled with the notion that black powder is a low pressure propellant. Based on what?
Also, fouling in small bore BP rifles is a much more significant problem than it is in a big bore rifle. BP fouling is more of a problem than smokeless but back in the day small bore BP was very successful
In the 30’06 it could very well be a bad idea. Why????????
The 303 British was originally a black powder cartridge and these two factors made that a short lived experiment. Had smokeless not came along the Brit's probably would still be using the .303 with BP today

My comment/questions are in red.

[bigted]

Well I too say ... try it.

I had the same hankerin with the 375 H&H then later with my 375 Ruger. Had a hoot and was fair successful ... however got that itch scratched and moved on. Was fun to shoot BP in a modern boltgun sighted with a modern scope.

[yulzari]

As.303 has been mentioned I will note that:
1. It was designed for smokeless and only used a cored solid pellet of black powder temporarily until smokeless production was sorted out.
2. The pressure with the black powder was higher than the succeeding smokeless powder, not lower.

[Dan Cash]

As.303 has been mentioned I will note that:
1. It was designed for smokeless and only used a cored solid pellet of black powder temporarily until smokeless production was sorted out.
2. The pressure with the black powder was higher than the succeeding smokeless powder, not lower.

I surely would like to see your sources for the above claims.

[Bent Ramrod]

Ommundsen and Robinson’s Rifles and Ammunition, pp. 104-114.

Original .303 loading was 70 gr black powder behind a jacketed bullet. Anybody who has trouble getting the old standard loadings of black powder into modern cases might try this sometime; I would bet it was squeezed into a solid grain in the shell. Probably needed a hydraulic press and a die to keep the shell from bursting.

They mention it wasn’t so much that black had a higher pressure than smokeless per se, but the initial pressure spike of black was higher and the pressure of smokeless was more evenly distributed as the bullet went up the barrel, allowing for much higher velocities.

Some pirate ought to reprint that book. It’s the English version of Sharpe’s The Rifle in America, plus the historical stuff he had on ammunition manufacturing history in The Complete Guide to Handloading.

“Fun” Fact: Ommundsen was killed on the Western Front before the book was published in 1915.

And, to keep the thread on track, No, I don’t shoot black in the .30-06.

[bigted]

I do not have any science to back this ... but ... I can not wrap my mind around the offering of "black powder has higher pressures then smokeless powders".

I still say try it! Might make lube cookies to put under the boolit. May help some with keeping the fouling soft. Another suggestion would be to load OE or SWISS 2F powder for the best of fouling.

Also will offer this ... fast twist rifling is not always a disaster with slow boolits ... for instance ... i load and shoot a Encore 18 inch rifle with Trail Boss powder and shoot 55 grain boolits at 22 LR velocity and at 35 yards they all go into a small hole of maybe 1/2 inch ... my squirrel loads.

Try your 06 with BP. Be a fun experiment. Report back with your findings please.

[dverna]

12-13 gr of Promo/RedDot seems so much easier and predictable.

Cost of powder for a box of 20 works out to $3.60 for BP vs $.60 for Promo. Cannot see any advantages to BP....unless one enjoys cleaning their rifles frequently.

[M-Tecs]

I do not have any science to back this ... but ... I can not wrap my mind around the offering of "black powder has higher pressures then smokeless powders".
.

The link below does indicate a faster rise in pressure with BP but we have known that for a long time. In cartridge application its really difficult to get over 25,000 CUP.

"You'll notice that the Goex rise times are essentially twice as fast as the IMR4759
rise times. I’ve seen numerous pressure curves of various smokeless ammo rifle
loads and typical rise times were in the range of 180µs to as much as 400µs. So
there should be no doubt that the burn rate of black powder is significantly faster
than smokeless, although not by an order of magnitude but rather by factors
ranging from 2 to 5. Consequently it should stand to reason that BP is more
efficient at obturating the relatively soft cast bullets shot in BPC rifles".

http://www.texas-mac.com/Black_Powder_Pressure_Curves_and_Bullet_Obturation .html

Bill Knight, considered an expert on black powder manufacturing, brought up a
good point that we should not forget when comparing black powder and smokeless
powder pressure curves. To paraphrase Bill's comments, “Black powder burns at
essentially the same rate regardless of increasing pressure in the chamber or
cartridge. Therefore the burn rate and pressure curve rise times are independent of
the pressure levels.” Smokeless powders are generally progressive burning
powders, meaning that as the pressure increases the burn rate increases. So the
leading edge of the BP pressure curve will rise rapidly in a linear fashion
compared to the leading edge of smokeless pressure curves, which will have more
of a non-linear shape and rise slower. But smokeless powders are capable of
reaching much higher pressure levels than BP.

[M-Tecs]

History on the 303.

https://gundigest.com/more/classic-guns/britains-black-powder-303-the-lee-metford

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/britishmilitariaforums/black-powder-303-pressure-t11072.html

[CoryT]

So for starters I will jump onto cast boolits, heavy for calibre and PB design with lube grooves, likely loaded with smokeless in the 1300-1400fps range, then try black from there. These will be casted from softer lead, or possibly even pure. Which mold would you all recommend?
Cory

[Don McDowell]

Better cast those from 16-1

You will also want to make sure when you load those bullets with black the base of the bullet doesn't extend past the base of the neck.

[CoryT]

Ok everyone, I have come to the conclusion that my best option at this point (entry level into BPCR) is to not take on a challenging cartridge and first gain lots of experience with a far easier, and more popular round. So... I went online and purchased a used .45-70 stainless barrel for my Encore receiver. It is only 24” in length, and likely the farthest from a traditional .45-70 rifle you can get, but will allow me my entry experience and with luck maybe the real thing a few years down the road. If the bug really takes hold that is. This is for personal shooting and hunting, not any competition, so no worries there.
So I will start a new thread up asking for advice on best cast boolit for hunting and accuracy, and possible load advice soon. Thanks again all.
Cory

[Huvius]

Probably a good choice as a first BP rifle.
Cleanup is as easy as can be with a removable SS barrel.

[Good Cheer]

A few years ago someone here discussed shooting their 8x57 with homemade black.

I really need to get around to that with paper patched.
:|