Grrr. Broke a third one!!

[cwlongshot]

251886I cannot be alone!! I know I use my Equiptment more then most. But I never abuse and always lubricate stress points.

This is the fourth break on four different Lyman 450/4500 sizers!!!!

First I broke two handles. Made I used vice grips for a handle for a while. They picked up some reverse rotation bits and got the broke stud out. I used the handle from another unit but Maybe 200 bullets later, I broke the replacement. GRRR

SO, I made a new handle complete with the toggle portion.

Over the Summer I bought a Lyman 450 at a yard sale. So I swapped in those toggle parts and handle. Broke THAT HANDLE in short order... So back to those vice grips.

I also wore out the bolts on my first 450. Replaced them with grade 8 bolts. Those hold up as one would expect.

Well just now I broke another toggle set. What the fudge!!!

Mostly Im just seating gas checks. Maybe 10% In sizing as well. I 99% POWDER COAT!

I AM NOT USING THIS FOR LUBING BULLETS.

Am I alone here? Cannot fathom that I am. Im gonna make a new toggle outta flat stock and a threaded union. Thats easiest. Little cutting, couple holes 1.050 apart and a bit of welding and then re hardening and Ill have it. I should make up a couple as they really seem to be a consumable part.

Before I start this...

Is anyone making a better part??

CW

[alamogunr]

I remember seeing a solution somewhere that recommended brazing a steel washer over the pivot hole on both legs to reinforce it. I would think this would prevent breakage. Also, using a washer that was a little thicker should add an extra measure of safety. Try a Google search.

BTW, I haven't done this on my 450, but should.

[Jeff Michel]

I ran into the same problem. Cold reloading room, stiff lube. I attached a heater to all three of my lube sizers and run them about ten minutes before I start in. This is with 50/50 and 2500. Nothing with a reputation of being temperature critical in use. Problem 100 % solved.

[smithnframe]

I've been using a Lyman 450 since 1971 with nary a problem.......you must be hard/ abusive with yours!

[Greg S]

RCBS LAM2. :kidding:

[onelight]

Mine has seen no where near the use of a lot of you guys but have had it more than 30 years never a problem.

[Winger Ed.]

It's too cold for what you're using in it.

[swheeler]

Abusive/improper use of equipment, rookie mistake. Nary a problem with 450 or 4500 after many 100k bullets

[cupajoe]

Dang, sounds like you need a heater or at least chip the ice off before you start. Don't know how to do the "pullin your chain" thingy.

[Petrol & Powder]

Not sure how that happened.

[Littlewolf]

ive bent the handle on my #45 more than once it's eventually just going to break if i keep running it in the winter without a heater even with the finger smash soft lube wax i use in it

[Walks]

I've been using the same 450 since 1976. Even when I was sizing down #454190 cast of pure linotype to .452, I never had any problems. Had my 450 bolted to a Lyman heater clear through a 2×6". C-Clamped to my picnic table on the patio.
These Days I'm using WLL - BAC. Plug in heater for 10min, start sizing. Unplug heater after 10min, the lube is flowing well by then.

[cwlongshot]

Mostly I crimp gas checks and size bullets. Probably 90% of the time.
When sizing its Powder Coated bullets. No lube used.

I have occasionally lubed the powder coated bullets to size them when they are large. Like sizing a 460/454.

By and large 99% of my sizing is to within a few thousandths of final diameter.
But as I said, I dont size on the 450. I crimp gas checks and then use a push thru NOE/LEE.

Tonight I needed about 25 358 RCBS 358-200’s. Checked and sized 358. I had done a couple 359 and they went tru so easy it was not completely resized so I ran them thru 358. I was gonna shoot them to be sure that that size would be OK in a 356 Winchester single shot that I am just starting to shoot cast thru. So I was sizing and seating a GC. It broke when bringing “up” the handle. It hadnt been a difficult lift.

CW

[OldBearHair]

I am thinking ; use carbon steel as thick as possible 4130 -- Heat red and shape while red only -- flatten to thickness desired -- grind to shape leaving more edge distance around holes. -- drill holes -- heat to red, cover in ashes until cool -- Heat treat -- temper -- and then there is the aircraft sheetmetal rule to use 1 1/2 times the diameter of the hole for edge distance minimally.

[Petrol & Powder]

While the design places the fulcrum point right at that 90 corner of the handle, and therefore near that hole in the corner; there shouldn't be a huge amount of stress on that part.

You could fabricate a piece with a gusset on the inside of that 90 degree angle and that would add a bit of material to the inside portion. There's nothing that could be done to the outer edge because it must fit on top of the ram.

I'm inclined to think a crack developed right at that inside 90 degree angle. Working the handle simply spread that crack until it reached that pivot hole.

The design isn't horrible and the OP may simply have run into a bad part that was going to fail no matter what. If a replacement is made, I would suggest adding a little material to the inside portion of that angle, making that section a curve instead of a sharp 90 degree angle and using a mild steel.

[Dusty Bannister]

When sizing PC bullets with the in/out style sizers, the bullet is dead stopped at one point in the process. If the bullet is not lubed, you have to overcome the start resistance as you eject the bullet. you would not be likely to lube a PC bullet if you are applying a gas check so perhaps your check is catching on one of the lube hole edges and that requires more force.

If you have to use more than two fingers to operate the sizer, something is not right. That is why the push through dies are so popular and easy to use. There is no start stop motion, just one easy smooth pass through the die, and yes some will apply something on the bullets to make the job easier.

[ubetcha]

I broke the handle linkage on my Lyman 450 a few years ago. I brazed it up while waiting for new linkage. Still using the brazed part yet. New part sitting in tool box.

[upnorthwis]

I broke one several years ago. Was sizing water dropped .410 diameter, 420 gr. SAECO for the Browning 1885. Made a replacement out of a steel rod. It's been there ever since (although I no longer water drop any boolits.).

[Moleman-]

If you're going to make a new one, I'd follow what Petrol suggested and leave as much metal on the inside rounded off corner as possible. Making a new shifter fork for a Clausing lathe right now because they went with a fancy slot with a V cut in the bottom instead of just using a radius cutter on the iron casting. The most concentrated spot for stress was the top of the V and that's where it cracked. It's getting replaced with a mild steel copy only with an oilite bushing in it to pivot on and the slot cut with a radius at the bottom to prevent it from cracking again.

[gwpercle]

I have been using the same 450 since 1973 , I only shoot cast and competed in NRA Bullseye Match for 20 years , shooting twice a week with my cast , lubed and sized boolits . I've never had any part break . If you have broken it three then you are using way too much force . Probably size hardened boolits ? Lighten up on the ham handed force...treat them gentle...If it doesn't go in / come out ...STOP ... Trying to use brute strength will only break parts .
Heat treat and harden boolits AFTER sizing . Be gently , use a delicate touch .

You may not be alone...my Brother in Law can break a anvil and hammers ...don't lend him anything if you want it back in one piece .
Gary

[Green Frog]

Are you sizing or swaging with that poor old 450? :???: The only broken handle we’ve experienced around here came with using stiff lube (cold) and hard oversized bullets in a well used then thirty year old plus Model 450. Good luck with yours.

Froggie

[bob208]

I have been using one since 1972 with out a problem. but then it has always been in a warn heated house.

[Larry Gibson]

cwlongshot

"Mostly I crimp gas checks and size bullets. Probably 90% of the time.
When sizing its Powder Coated bullets. No lube used.

I have occasionally lubed the powder coated bullets to size them when they are large. Like sizing a 460/454."

Apparently it's the "10%" of the time that's causing the breakage........ sizing powder coated bullets, especially if heat treated or WQ hardened, .006 over the sizing diameter is not what the 450's or 4500s for that matter, were designed to do.

[cwlongshot]

Mine are kept in doors in basement. But Im not lubing with them. Just sizing and even then mostly just seating gas checks.

CW

[Skunk1]

Heat your lube, shouldn’t have that much force unless your sizing them too much at a time. If so take it in steps not all at once. I did get a package trade for one that the casting was completely blown out the side. Parts were all good but the the main body had a 5 inch blow out in it. I used lymans for years but have completely switched over to stars and left 2 Lachmillers for odd rifle and powder coating.

[Drm50]

Got mine as hand me down about 1964. I have no idea how many boolits have been through it. I did replace the bolts with hardened bolts but just on a whim because I had them. I size and lube in winter I put a little Quartz heater on bench behind it and bring it up to room temp. Basement gets chilly in winter and lube can get stiff.
Nary a problem in all those years.

[Taterhead]

http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/index.php?cPath=564_104

:kidding:

[jdfoxinc]

Either you have arms like a gorilla or you need to quit using that cheater bar.

[cwlongshot]

Well I did also break a RCBS Summit press....

CW

[Conditor22]

Do you think it might be you? :???:[smilie=s::bigsmyl2:

[44magLeo]

I assume you are seating the gas check, powder coating then sizing with the push through.
Have you tried powder coating and the push through sizer then seat the checks?
Is the die you use to seat the checks the same size as the bullets you are seating checks on?
If not try using one that does. This way you are not sizing the bullet any. This should ease the stress on your machine.
Have you tried seating the checks with the push through die? they are supposed to.
Leo

[Petander]

RCBS LAM2. :kidding:


https://i.postimg.cc/RFnFvfKZ/IMG-20191128-150927.jpg

[Green Frog]

As a friend used say, “That boy could break the horn off an anvil with a rubber hammer!” :D

[cwlongshot]

Its because of the powder coat... It seems quite slick. But the stopping and starting as pointed out is the game Changer.

Yes I have tried seating GC in/with a push thru. They size fine they dont install a GC on a powder coated bullet worth a darn.

Im not rough not ham handed. Maybe stronger then many. Likly, subscribe to the bugger hammer theology too. ;) but I dont know.

I quickly made a new handle and it works fine now. Its not “finished” but will allow me to complete this batch. I also changed up and will ONLY seat and crimp chexks. near ZERO STRESS, on machine. Then a push thru LEE as its 358. I size bullets upside down. GC first as the bullet is a FP.

CW

[Wayne Smith]

Did I read you correctly that you are using NO LUBE?? That alone can do it.

[jsizemore]

I don't PC but do Hitek. After coated, usually within the hour and no more than 2, I spray a 11-1 mix of Alcohol/lanolin to size 1-2 thousandths. I might not NEED to lube but they fly through the sizing die with nary a hitch. Sure helps with the start of the sizing and they look glass slick where the sizing die did it's thing. Absolutely no bullet setback when hitting the feed ramp in my 9mm brass.

[shootinfox2]

Spray your bullets with one shot case lube. Works wonders.

[popper]

Yup, cast steel machined like triump transmission gears. Bet that break looks like pot metal break, real big grains. Rest of the thing is probably pot metal too so I'd make a handle/lever with a narrow part near the handle that will bend before breaking anything else. Pot metal doesn't weld good, brazing might help but see the above.

[cwlongshot]

Agreed. Junk metal. Appears sand Cast too. No way Ill repair the broken piece. Ill make new then harden it. It rides on 1/4” grade 8 bolts. Im also gonna move handle back. Somits more over yhe top. Its “ power stroke” is low now. With handle back lil it will be where user has more muscle. So should make for easier use. ( lil more leverage)

Its not quality at all.

Your right Fox!! I have found a good use for Hornady one stuck!! Powder coat bullet lube!!!

I didnt want the mess, but I think you are right.

Handle I threw together is just 2, 12” sticks of 1/8x3/4” angle. Welded together, Drilled and ground for clearance. Cobbled together but working. Ill make better this week. Need to make two once I have good design. Then ill harden both before finishing.

CW

[popper]

Just harden the holes! Hard steel is more brittle to stress cracks.

[gwpercle]

Might be the 450 was designed to be used with lube and the powder coated boolits without lube are causing the problem with the in - out motion it uses .
I bet a straight push through sizer , like the NOE in post #22 , might work better .
I sometimes get resistance on the upstroke of the 450 , usually the sizing die is newer and they need some extra polishing to work smoothly...
might want to try polishing your sizing dies , wont hurt and might help .
Gary

[cwlongshot]

252242

I recently got a .359 Factory new sizer. First one I have bought in a decade!
I DID lube the first few bullets and THEY GOT STUCK!! Thinking back this could well have been the initial cause of this most recent failure. Probably quality has dipped from Lyman in that polish you speak of.

Its a lil better now that it has couple Thousand boolits thru it. But I STILL start with a lubed bullet AND lube every tenth or so.

I also built a die with the help of a member here and use lyman sizer dies in a push thru capacity. It works well as using them In single direction seems to be of tantamount importance.

Any how, In early this am and I chopped a couple Pieces of 1/4” stock.

Then halfed them and drilled holes.

252243

Then ground them round on one end, chamfered other. On one I decided to try a angle. Maybe its better maybe no... Then I chopped a stick of Cold rolled 1/2” for the handles.

252244

Lastly glue them together. ;) I didnt make a jig as there is just two. So I held them and welded. Not perfect, But close enough! Couple degrees off will be just fine.

252245

I left handles long as I only halfed what I had on hand.

Im sure Ill need to do a little smoothing and such. But here they is! Paint later. I dont wanna make any excuses for my guys to go home. Its already snowing like crazy, about now they start looking at me to say go home early... But after a short week last week we are behind! So we workin till EOD TODAY!

CW

[RogerDat]

If one is seating gas checks or sizing PC'd bullets and "doesn't use them to lube" then one has no lube right? Could that be the source of the problem? Designed to drive a very lubricated mechanism? More than one post on it being "too cold" for the lube and that causing this problem, but OP indicates not using lube at all.

[edp2k]

You might consider polishing out the inside of your sizing dies to lessen the force needed to push a boolit through them.
They may be rough from the factory or somehow roughed up during use.

Use some jewelers rouge and a cotton cloth wrapped
around a split piece of dowel or metal rod (be careful not to scratch anything).

comet/barkeepers-friend/auto-polishing compound may also work in a pinch.

[Eddie Southgate]

I have been using #1's and 45's for over 50 years and have yet to break anything on one , maybe i'm just very lucky .

[cwlongshot]

Well they fit but I needed to do alot of grinding. Both would be fine for GC, but only One works 80% overall.

I remade the other one.

252335

Im sure Ill beed a bit of tweaking. But this should be closer.

CW