Best bullet for Uberti High Wall 45-70

[Matrix]

I have just bought a used Uberti High Wall in 45-70 and it is the first black powder gun I have ever owned. While I reload everything imaginable in smokeless powder, I am absolutely new to the world of back powder and really looking forward to learning how to make this rifle sing at long distance.

The Uberti's have 1:20 twist rate and a 32" barrel.

I have a couple of questions and hoping I can get some direction from those experienced with this type of rifle with a goal to shooting longer distances out to 800 - 1000 yards.

What would be a good bullet that I could cast for this rifle? I was thinking about 500's but maybe that's a bit heavy for a 1:20 twist.

Which black powder seems to give the most consistent results?

Any suggestions for a smokeless load? Since I have lots of smokeless powder, it would be great to have a simple cartridge that would be easy to clean.

[longrange2]

Matrix. Its not the weight but the length that is more important, Try a bullet in the 1.2"to 1,3" bracket will do you fine. Vic.

[country gent]

Pick up a few of the Lyman 457125 to try it is normally a 500 - 510 grn with a bunter round nose. Size base to +.001 and the bore riding nose it should be a good performer at BP velocities of 1100-1200 fps. This bullet should be of the length your twist rate wants. You might also try the 480 grn snoover bullet.

If possible put an add in swapping and selling for some test bullets. See what works in your rifle then buy your moulds

[Matrix]

Vic. That is very interesting. I always thought it was the bullet weight that was the primary measurement to review when looking at stabilizing projectiles.
Who says you can't teach an old dog new tricks?
Thanks for getting back to me.

[Matrix]

Country Gent..............
If possible put an add in swapping and selling for some test bullets. See what works in your rifle then buy your moulds
I wasn't aware that we could do that. Excellent suggestion.
Thank you for your suggestions.

[Jedman]

Lee makes a mold for a 500 gr. Semi pointed bullet for the 45-70 that has a hi BC.
I own 7 - 45-70's but don't shoot them at long range or use the bullet I mentioned.
I am too lazy to clean a rifle every time I shot it so I would never consider shooting black powder.
The 45-70 can be loaded with just about any powder you have at some level but for shooting long range targets I can't recommend a best powder.
Loading the 45-70 is one of the easiest calibers to handload for, you should enjoy the caliber if you are not to sensitive to the recoil.

Jedman

[Kraschenbirn]

Pick up a few of the Lyman 457125 to try it is normally a 500 - 510 grn with a bunter round nose. Size base to +.001...should be a good performer at BP velocities of 1100-1200 fps...

+1 on what he said. I'm obtaining good accuracy shooting the Accurate 46-500D (close copy of the 1879 .45-70-500 boolit) from my Taylor & Co Highwall (made by Uberti). Our club range only goes out to 300M so I can't speak for what it might do at really long range but (if I'm have a reasonably good day:)) >2 MOA groups are pretty much the norm. Had a calm day last week and, on the 300M lane, put 9 rounds into just over 4 1/2" CTC...then pulled the last round and opened the group to 5 3/4".

Bill

[Southern Son]

I got mine to shoot with the Lyman Postell, but only to 300m. After 500m, it was rubbish. I had a gunsmith fit an 18 twist Green Mountain barrel.

[Matrix]

Jedman - Thank you for the comments. Like you, I have been to lazy to shoot BP but I want to give it a try and nothing is better than a 45-70 to get started.
Bill - Sounds like the Accurate 46-500D is a good place to start. I will give it a try.
Southern Man - Thanks for sharing your experience. I am seriously trying to avoid either having t sell the Uberti or re-barrel it due to the1:20 twist rate. My hope is that using the right bullet will help avoid that kind of cost.

[country gent]

I shoot several bullets in my 45 cal rifles. ( 3 45-70s 1 45-90) all are 1-18 twist rates. 1 is the 457125 lyman This bullet has been my start and or test bullet as it almost always performs well. This mould has been lapped out to a .460 body dia and .449 nose dia with 20-1 alloy. 2nd is the lyman 535 grn postell this bullet usually preforms well in most rifles This mould has been converted to nose pour and again lapped out to .460 more so to get truly round bullets. In my brochardt I need to size it down to .458 do to tighter chamber. In the roller pedersoli and Hepburn as cast is a real shooter out to 500 yds. 3 but not last by any means is a 547 grn silhouette bullet made by Bernie Rowels at Old west moulds this bullet really shines in the Hepburn 45-90 out to 500yds, and really rocks those heavy rams. But recoil also is heavier with this bullet.
With black powder several things are different than smokeless. 1st you want a compressed load of powder, start out with no compression no airspace under wads and bullet. Use a lube for black powder. Lube isn't just for the bullet here but also keeps fouling soft. Watch the muzzle for a lube star to form this tells you that there is enough lube and also how true the crown is. Wads can make a big difference in a load. As can neck tension.

Here is my one 45-90 load to give an idea.
Starline brass 45-90 primer pockets uniformed and flash holes deburred. Trimmed annealed and chamfered deburred
Rem std large rifle primer. hand seated
82 grns Olde Ensforde powder dropped in case thru 3' drop tube. I do weigh each charge also
1 .060 napa rubber fiber wad hand seated on to powder
charge and wad compressed to depth with a die in the press
2 tracing paper wads hand seated on the heavy wad. These insure the heavy wad doesn't stick to the bullet.
Hand seat the 547 frn bullet on to the wad stack
I set neck tension with a bushing die after bullet is seated a very light tension. no crimp

This load will shoot great to 500 yds all day and gives Standard Deviations of 8-10 fps.
Depending on the powder compression is where to work

[longrange2]

MATRIX. Vic again
, Ill give you a bullet formula copy it into must have book? Bore Dia x 3 answer x answer = Twist x .07 = Then divide first answer by the second answer = bullet length. EG .450x3=1.35x1.35=1.8225. Twist 20x.07=1.4 Then 1.8225 devide by 1.4=1.3017857143" so bullet length required is 1.301" will shoot from 0 to hero distances at black powder vel's. Vic

[Chill Wills]

Just to put a little context into this.
Creedmoor matches, the ones shot in 1874 and after were shot using rifles in many cases using 20 twist. Paper patched bullets weighing 550 grains and 100 more or less grains of powder. These bullets are about 1,5 inches long. Ten pound rifles with often 34 inch barrels. Military Springfield rifles of the era, 22 inch twist, shot from the 1000 yard line competed as well using what would become the Postell bullet with just a little different nose shape than we have today.

Sometimes stated hard and fast rules in 2019 omit the lesions of history.

Give that Uberti single shot a good work out before coming to any conclusions. I have seen too many people decide what works and what is needed based on well intended advice. Get out and shoot, shoot shoot! Own many molds and have your own experiences.

[Matrix]

This is great Vic. I have never seen this formula before.
Thank you.
Don

[Matrix]

Country Gent - Thank you for the detailed info. This will be a great help when loading my own. Clearly I have lots to learn about BP loading but it looks like it will be a rewarding process. Those SD numbers are amazing. They are very tough to get in smokeless powder loads.

[Matrix]

Chill Wills - Thank you for the advice and the reminder of the rifle's history. I'm looking forward to seeing what this rifle can do. Finding a rifle's accuracy potential is the part of shooting I enjoy most.

[smithnframe]

Lee makes a mold for a 500 gr. Semi pointed bullet for the 45-70 that has a hi BC.
I own 7 - 45-70's but don't shoot them at long range or use the bullet I mentioned.
I am too lazy to clean a rifle every time I shot it so I would never consider shooting black powder.
The 45-70 can be loaded with just about any powder you have at some level but for shooting long range targets I can't recommend a best powder.
Loading the 45-70 is one of the easiest calibers to handload for, you should enjoy the caliber if you are not to sensitive to the recoil.

Jedman

Using a blow tube and the proper bullet lube I don't need to clean either of my Sharps rifles for 50 shots!

[jednorris]

It is my understanding that a lot of Match's that shoot at those distances do NOT allow Smokeless. If I were going to the trouble of developing a load, I would make sure EVERTHING would be allowed no matter where I shot.

[Matrix]

Hey smithnframe - Your comment is well made. I have been watching a few Youtube videos and "Gonagain" has put together a couple of excellent videos and he uses a blow tube after every shot. I didn't realize it made that significant a difference. Thanks for your comments.

[Matrix]

It is my understanding that a lot of Match's that shoot at those distances do NOT allow Smokeless. If I were going to the trouble of developing a load, I would make sure EVERTHING would be allowed no matter where I shot.
Hi jednorris - Thanks for your comments. While I don't disagree with your sentiment, if the match organizers outline the match parameters up front, I'm OK with BP only and working within their rules. It is a different sport when compared to a smokeless and I'm looking forward to learning all I can about it.
I shoot cowboy action and it is "anything goes" regarding BP or smokeless powder. I find smokeless easier to use because I know it, but many of my friends use BP. So, I personally don't have a reason to be concerned with match directors calling their matches BP only. It's just part of the game.

[country gent]

One thing I have found when I went to black powder is velocities became more consistent and standard deviations extreme spreads went down a lot in these bigger cases. I find it easier to load and work with than smokeless. I also blow tube between shots and clean between strings. Cleaning ( as long as there's no leading) isn't a big deal with black powder. For at the range a bottle of windex with vinegar or 20-1 ballistol water mix in a spray bottle and BP fouling runs out. A few passes with these and dry patches between stages. When done for the day I clean and wet bore, leaving wet on ride home. When home and ready I wet bore again and lightly brush then patch, oil bore and done.

I make my blow tubes with a case on the end of the tube and a mouth piece. BP fouling tastes terrible if you get the tube turned around. The case also directs the breaths and keeps the moisture out of the chamber. Simply drill the head of a 45-70 case out to hold a 357 case insert so body stick's out the back and solder or glue. insert this on your 3/8 ID clear hose.

[Matrix]

Country Gent - This is superb information for a newby. Have you considered writing a book "Intro to BP Shooting". I would be a buyer.

I'm looking forward to picking up the rifle tomorrow morning.
The gunsmith at the store is a Sharps owner. He has 5, 1874's in 45-70 and 1 in 45-90. Since the Uberti I am buying only has stock sights, he is brining in a couple of Pedersoli sights that he thinks I might be interested in.
The front sight is a globe sight. I don't know if it has a bubble level but I'm hoping it does.
The rear is a Pedersoli medium distance, so I don't think it will work for me.
He is also giving me a handful of 500 grain bullets to try. I think they are from a Lee mould. At this point, I'm happy to try anything I can put my hands on to start testing.

[marlinman93]

You might consider the Lyman 480 gr. semi pointed bullet. I think it would perform well in your 1:20 twist barrel.

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1010235575?pid=476802

[country gent]

Matrix, The pedersoli sights are okay, I have one on my 74 long range pedersoli. Its the soule model and it is good for setting to one distance and leaving, but repeatability leaves a little to be desired. In a lot of matches you shoot several different distances and being able to crank up to a setting accurately is a plus. I would look at the MVA long range soule with a Hadley eye cup. these repeat well and have a easy to read Vernier scale. More expensive, but much better and easier to use. As to the front the front globe with level is preferred but a level can be installed in the rear sight dovetail also. All my front sights have levels 2 are wind gage also. On a windy day its nice to make main correction up front and adjust from there on rear. Also allows for rear to stay centered more making for a better cheek weld and head position.

I also use several MVA scopes on my rifles. These are 6X and full length. Again front mount has wind adjustment and rear elevation and wind. Since these scopes use unertal posa bases base heights can be played with to zero rifle and to set a 20 or so moa into the mount. With these scopes ring spacing is important as it sets the rings adjustment per graduations.

You might consider a few outing with the orifinal sights and decide from there what you want or need. A mid range on 45-70 will usually get you to 600 yds maybe a little farther.

Some thing a lot don't realize with these rifle /sight set ups is the actual sight radius you get. with a 34" barrel and tang sight you end up with around a 38" sight radius, this really makes sight alignment easier. Almost like a zero magnification scope.

Get a food full set of apertures for the front globe for round targets gind ine that leaves a healthy line of white around it . This allows you to see when its centered easier. With the Hadley eye cup use the aperture that allows for a clear bright view looking thru it. You don't look at the rear but thru it the eye naturally centers it. To small an aperture and light doesn't get to the eye making seeing hard, to big and the tendency to want to "center" it becomes more predominant. Again all my rifles wear hadleys.

[Matrix]

marlinman93 - Thank you for the suggestion. I will check it out.
country gent - Again, thank you for the very detailed information. I feel liking I'm getting an excellent book of information over the forum.
I went to pick up the Uberti yesterday and the sights were OK. A step up from stock but not exactly what I was hoping for. The rear came with 2 posts, short and mid-range. The short is calibrated but the mid-range isn't. The front is a globe but doesn't have a level. Both will be OK to get started and will help me do some load testing but they will have to be upgraded.
I agree with your comments regarding MVA, not cheap but very well made. I believe they will be my "go to" for long distance sights.
Again, thank you for your sage advise.

[country gent]

You are welcome Matrix.
Sights are going to make or break you. A set that wont repeat to a setting can be hard to deal with other than when you can set and forget. My line book has the sight setting for each rifle in it from 100-500yds. Look up the rifle and load and its there in the chart. This makes setting for each stage a lot easier with good sights.
Its really rewarding to go from 100-200 then 300-400 and 400-500 and get first shot hits at each one. LOL This takes good note taking and accurate repeatable sights.

[Matrix]

Country Gent - Thank you again for the invaluable information and suggestions.

[Southern Son]

if you haven't bought a mould yet, maybe look at Lyman 457677. It is a tapered boolit, so you can get more boolit in the bore and less in the case, which means more powder. I have a mould but you are on the wrong side of the world for me to send a few to you to try.

[Matrix]

Southern Son - Thank you for the recommendation. It seems you aren't the only one who likes this Lyman bullet. I did a little digging on-line and found the following;


This is a Paul Mathews designed bullet. It is of "bore rider" design, which means the front driving bands are smaller diameter than the rear bands. This allows the bullet to be seated further out of the case to make more room for powder.It is a great BPCR design and carries a lot of lube. On a good day, I've gone ten shots without fouling out with this bullet. Most days, I only make it to eight shots before fouling takes its toll on accuracy. That's still very good with no wiping or blow-tubing.Unfortunately, not every Lyman mold in this design yields completely cylindrical bullets. I have two molds of this design and one of them makes bullets that are more elliptical than cylindrical. Thus, only four stars. Wonderful bullet design, less than impressive mold.

[grantharris1945]

Friend shot 500gr round nose Lyman shot well


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