Keith 358429 question.

[DaveN]

For those of you that have loaded the 358429:

I have several .357 magnums, and the 358429 looks like an interesting bullet to try. But...

One of them is a Ruger 50th Anniversary Flattop. A little math and a set of calipers tells me that .357 mag brass and a 358429 bullet will probably be too long for the cylinder.

Have any of you tried it?

The Smith and Wessons both have cylinders a good deal longer than the Ruger.

[megasupermagnum]

I don't know why it would be too short, I've shot a 358429 clone out of a new model blackhawk plenty, and it fits fine. I was under the impression the S&W N-frame cylinders were shorter, or maybe the other smiths had longer cylinders? Either way, the only gun I've heard it might be too long for is the N-frame smith's.

[fecmech]

Simply taper crimp the 358429 on the front drive band to whatever length you need for it to fit, I've been doing it for close to 50 years. A max load of 296/H110 and a well cast 358429 will give you approx 1300 fps and 2.5-3" 50 yrd groups out of a good 6" revolver.

[762sultan]

I think that the 358429 was designed as a heavy bullet for the 38 special but could be used in some 357 guns. I have a Colt Python it won't chamber in so I shoot it in a Ruger GP100 just fine. There are a lot of other great bullets that have s shorter profile you can use.

[USSR]

The S&W Model 27 and 28 have the short cylinder, and I've heard some of the old Rugers do, although I don't know about your particular model. While I love this bullet, my only complaint is the remakes of it aren't made to Elmer's spec's which specify a full diameter front driving band. I got around it by getting Miha's offering of a .360" 358429 mould which gives me .358" driving bands out of the mould.

Don

[gwpercle]

Elmer Keith designed the 358429 to be loaded in 38 special brass... I'm not sure the 357 magnum had come out at that time . Later , in his 1936 book " Sixgun Cartridges & Loads" he advises if the round is too long when loaded in 357 magnum cases to crimp over the front driving band thus making OAL shorter. I never liked crimping over the shoulder so used 38 Special cases and crimped in the crimp groove .
Gary

[USSR]

Elmer Keith designed the 358429 to be loaded in 38 special brass... I'm not sure the 357 magnum had come out at that time .

Yep, the 358429 was Keith's 4th SWC bullet design and came about in 1931. The .357 Magnum was introduced in 1934/35. Lyman over the years made changes such as shortening and reducing in diameter the front driving band. Elmer wasn't pleased.

Don

[Petander]

The S&W Model 27 and 28 have the short cylinder

How about a 586 ? In the pic is a Mod 28 that takes these long OAL NEI SWC dummies, they don't fit in my 586 this long. A Rossi carbine takes them long,too.

I'm posting here,being also interested in 358429 / 357 Mag.

https://i.postimg.cc/0jxX56RG/IMG-20191127-080046.jpg

[Walks]

The #358429 was designed for the .38-44 Loading for the S&W Heavy Duty & Outdoorsman N-Frame Revolvers.
When the .357Magnum came out, S&W didn't increase cylinder length for the Model .357 Magnum.
The cartridge was introduced with a short SWC bullet. Maximum O.A.L. cartridge length was 1.590".

As far as I know S&W has never lengthened the cylinder on the N-Frame Revolvers.
My Dad had a Post-war N-Frame that had a custom long Cylinder made by Pachmayr Gun Shop just to accept this Bullet properly crimped.

When S&W introduced the K-Frame Combat Magnum in the late 1950's this problem was rectified with a cylinder long enough to accept a .357Mag loaded with a #358429 crimped in the proper groove.
My early 1970's M19-4" will take this load without a problem.
I supply 2 friends with #358429's for a M586 & M686.

And My old Python and Colt .357 both had cylinders long enough to accept this Bullet seated to the crimping groove.

The Lyman Cast #4 still lists this Bullet loaded in .357Mag cases with an O.A.L. of 1.553", showing it is still crimped over the forward driving band.

[USSR]

How about a 586 ? In the pic is a Mod 28 that takes these long OAL NEI SWC dummies, they don't fit in my 586 this long. A Rossi carbine takes them long,too.

I'm posting here,being also interested in 358429 / 357 Mag.

https://i.postimg.cc/0jxX56RG/IMG-20191127-080046.jpg

Petander,

Makes no sense that your Model 28 will accept a cartridge loaded with that bullet while your 586 won't, since your 586 has a longer cylinder. Unless your 586 has tight throats and that is the hangup. But, we are talking about the 358429 sticking out of the end of the cylinder. My Model 686 accepts the 358429 just fine.

Don

[lightman]

I've shot a lot of this bullet and it will be too long in some revolvers. I just slightly reduced the powder charge and seated the bullet deep enough to crimp over the driving band rather than crimping in the crimp groove. I could see no reduction in accuracy by doing this.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

The answer to this question is two crimp grooves, like on the NOE 360-165-SWC
Crimp it into the top lube groove for shorter 357mag cylinders.

I don't know if this is a 'clone' of the 358429, but with the variation Lyman has with their molds over time, I suspect the overall profile of the NOE is a clone to one of lyman's variations, LOL.

http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/product_info.php?cPath=35_308&products_id=2240&osCsid=2d7ujktpopm5d0dgb3bqc67016

[Petander]

Petander,

Makes no sense that your Model 28 will accept a cartridge loaded with that bullet while your 586 won't, since your 586 has a longer cylinder. Unless your 586 has tight throats and that is the hangup. But, we are talking about the 358429 sticking out of the end of the cylinder. My Model 686 accepts the 358429 just fine.

Don

I missed that point,sorry for the thread drift.

My throats are nice .358 - .3585 on both. Mod 28 has a shorter cylinder,even recessed. Takes a longer round w/ 359 bullet.

But it's another thread altogether.

[Tracy]

'429 crimped in the groove fits my old model Blackhawk, but just barely. It helps to trim the brass to minimum length. If I had to, I would even trim it slightly below minimum to make it work. But I don't have to.

The same comments apply to the .44 Keith bullet in some guns; both revolvers and leverguns.

[Petander]

And there is a Mihec group buy going on... and I have my first ever 38 Special revolver reserved... what to do,ehat to do...?

[Bigslug]

Just load it hot in .38 cases like Elmer intended. By the time you shove it down into a .357 case and crimp over the front band, you'll be dealing with about the same case capacity anyway.

But if you don't have the mold yet, there's other choices in the same weight class of the LFN/WFN profile that will fit .357 dimensions better.

[USSR]

And there is a Mihec group buy going on... and I have my first ever 38 Special revolver reserved... what to do,ehat to do...?

The 358429 crimped in the crimp groove with .357 Magnum brass will fit in your 586, but will stick out of the front of the cylinder of your 28.

Don

[floydboy]

I have a Smith 27 N frame and the 358429 is my most accurate boolit for magnum loads. I trim the case just enough to give clearance. Since this is my only 38 caliber pistol I don't worry about getting brass mixed up with other guns.

[Petander]

The 358429 crimped in the crimp groove with .357 Magnum brass will fit in your 586, but will stick out of the front of the cylinder of your 28.

Don

Thanks,yeah I understand this now.

I'm ok set for 357 Mag, got a general purpose Lee 158 RF, MP 170 FN/HP (revolvers) and NEI 145 SWC GC (carbine) already. Only missing a 200+ heavyweight for 357 now.

358429 would probably be a dedicated 38 Special bullet for a Model 14.

[ofreen]

Too bad S&W didn't make a M27 with M29/M57 length cylinders.

[fcvan]

I guess I never noticed a difference between Mom's M27 and Dad's M57 regarding cylinder length. I do know that Dad bought a SAECO made Kieth style mold that was long in my M57 if loaded to the crimp groove. It just would not load in my Marling 1894, and was right at the cylinder face of my S&W. My brother loaded them and he had his dies set for his Thompson Center 10" 41 Mag barrel, length wqas not an issue. I read in a recent thread the Kieth boolits were often pushing it for length.